Abortion a bigger problem than joblessness, says Catholic Church {spain}

[xchrom]

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/english/Abortion/bigger/problem/than/joblessness/says/Catholic/Church/elpepueng/20120101elpeng_3/Ten

Cardinal Archbishop Antonio Rouco Varela used an open-air gathering in Madrid's Plaza Colón on Friday to attack the policies of the previous Socialist Party government, calling for a repeal of legislation that provides for abortion on demand, as well as same-sex marriage.

"Life is a sacred right that humans have been given by God," Rouco told the faithful gathered in bright winter sunshine from a stage dominated by a 68-meter-long altar and backed by a 12-meter-high cross.

Rouco railed against the current situation in Spain and Europe, declaring that Christ had lived in times of historic blindness, and that we were now in one of those times.

"The family is under attack in Spain," said the archbishop, who is also the chairman of the Spanish Bishops Conference, insisting that abortion and euthanasia in Europe was a deeper crisis than the economy or politics.

[Gman]

1. No, joblessness leads to more abortions

Because people can feel desperate with no other options. I'm sure there are some woman out there that disagree, but I don't know a woman, of several I know that have had an abortion, that doesn't wish she could have had more options.

It's easy for the Cardinal to say when he has a good job for life.

[xchrom]

2. it's sad when you have to argue the obvious -- but did a good job of it.

as far as equality is concerned -- well, the benefits of that speaks for itself as well.

[Gman]

13. I've found people don't understand the reasons woman consider an abortion

I also told the priest that no one wakes up one morning and says, "I'll think I'll have an abortion today." No one. I said it's often only considered an option when things are very bad. I told him about conversations I've had with a few women and that the ones I know, if they had to do it all over again, would not have done it. But at the time they saw no other way out. And it's something they have great difficulty even talking about.

We will never convert anyone by telling/screaming at them that they don't have a right to take away someone's right to choose, or point out the hypocrisy of being against the "government run health care" while arguing the government should prevent women from having a medical procedure. I tell them about the reasons why women have abortions and if the economy were better or if they felt they had other options they wouldn't choose abortion. These people do not understand why women have abortions. Some anti-abortion women might say, "well, I would never...". I usually say you really don't know what you would do if you are that desperate. They don't always acknowledge it, but I'm sure they stop and think, if only for a second or two before going back into their own insular world where they don't have to think about it. If you give someone hope, they won't take the most drastic route.

Of course, there will be women who don't want to carry a baby to term for their own, often vain reasons that have nothing really to do with their own health or the health of the baby or their own survival in general. And they have the right to an abortion. Personally, I think the vain reasons are the worst, most self-centered reasons of all to do something so drastic.

It's easy to say "choose life" when it's not your own life that's at stake in some way and you haven't walked in their shoes.

[Ilsa]

3. I agree. I personally know

a woman, who had a child already, that had an abortion because her husband, the family's primary source of support, lost his job and insurance. This was before COBRA, etc. if I remember correctly. They felt like having the pregnancy would be irresponsible. The first baby was huge, over ten pounds. They worried about paying for medical complications for either mother or baby.

On edit: and they tend to vote Republican because of personal responsibility issues.

[Gman]

6. I explained this to our parish priest 3 years ago, as the economy was imploding

and told him people were losing jobs, homes, and were faced with no medical care. He was rabidly anti-abortion. In the course of our lively debate he got so excited he said, "I don't care about the poor or all of that! I only care about abortion!" I was actually shocked and said, "Father, I know you don't mean that!" He caught himself and knew what he said was wrong but didn't say anything. I saw him a week later and he just told me, "Pray for me!" which I took to mean he thought about what I said and knew I was right but had a hard time coming to grips with it. I said I would.

It's a very emotional topic. I agree with Bill Clinton's position that we should work for a world where people don't feel they have no options and that they are desperate. Such a world will make abortion rare.

[Ilsa]

12. You handled that beautifully.

I think you had an impact on him, even if he resumed his old way of thinking. It's kind of like evangelism: a person can stay ignorant and innocent on a position (need for salvation), but once they've heard the arguments (like John 3:16), they should be held accountable for their position, especially one in which no mercy is shown.

[RainDog]

15. easily accessible, affordable and safe birth control is the answer

even so, birth control is not 100% effective unless someone chooses surgery to end their reproductive capacity.

the truth is that most women don't want to have large families. most women who want children want two or three and also want the time to engage in other parts of life - and there is absolutely nothing wrong or vain or bad in any way about this.

It's normal for people to want to engage with the world outside their households or outside the lives of their children. It's HEALTHY to have a life that is not bound up in children who are supposed to grow up and create their own lives.

It's an emotional topic for me, too.

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would think women should be tied to their reproductive function before any other consideration in their lives. We don't hold men to this standard and we shouldn't hold women to it either.

To do so is sexism.

[Gman]

16. My comments are specific to the mid and lower socio-eco strata

where most abortions occur. And try to address what are often survival reasons for an abortion. Most families and single women in this range have to work outside the home out of necessity. An unwanted pregnancy could result in being fired and losing the income and/or benefits she has. This despite the law, or worse yet, ignorance of the law. These would not be vain reasons.

Of course there are the professional women who might find themselves pregnant and may elect abortion. While I personally may not agree with the decision, it is their unquestionable right to choose based alone on whatever their personal reason and conscience allow.

[RainDog]

20. so you agree that a single women who is poor

should have access to an abortion while a professional woman can but you don't agree with the decision?

what makes one more valid?

[Gman]

23. I don't know that I would agree with the decision for any woman but

it's not mine to impose my opinion and it's not my decision to make. Why do you think that's a problem? Do you see an congruence here? If so, why does it have to be incongruent to disagree with a decision but accept that it's really none of one's business? Isn't that what we would like the other side to do?

[RainDog]

24. okay

I thought you were saying a poor woman who needs a job to survive has a more valid reason to have an abortion than a professional woman who needs a job to survive. (Last CDC report indicated 83% of all women who have an abortion are single.)

what I never understood about people who oppose abortion is how this factors against the reality that throughout history children were abandoned to the elements to die after birth, children were farmed out to wet nurses who, the parents knew, would starve a baby to death, how children would be smothered - because people could not afford to have large families.

since we now have the capacity to limit the number of children conceived in the first place, or to end a pregnancy before a brain stem develops, I never understood the opposition to birth control among religious groups.

Such a view seems totally out of touch with the reality of people's lives, to me.

[CatholicEdHead]

26. Was he a younger priest out of seminary?

That is what is pushed in seminary nowadays. A focus on abortion, gay marriage, and contraception and nothing about Catholic Social Teaching towards the poor. While not officially off the books yet it is totally ignored by most of the clergy with influence nowadays.

[Gman]

28. No, he was actually around my age, mid-50's

but was from a small and notoriously conservative order that would overturn Vatican II if given half a chance. I wish I could remember the name of the order. He started having daily Latin masses just as soon as the go was given.

The discussion I had with him was right after mass when during his sermon, he read the congregation the riot act for "allowing Obama to be elected". He said as Catholics we should be on our knees doing penance for Obama being president. I walked out. My wife was lectoring and she said otherwise she would have walked out. I was livid and probably a bit too loud with my opinion in the back of the church. As soon as mass was over I was in the back waiting for him.

While I was talking with the priest, my wife said there were groups of people in the parking lot talking about his sermon and they were pissed. We're a Democratic area/parish that voted solidly for Obama and this did not go over well at all. There were some people that overheard my conversation and thanked me for telling him what I did.

Eventually a group of folks took up a petition and presented it to the archdiocese to get rid of him. He left voluntarily that year. And I refused to sign the petition and just explained that I've always taken up my beefs to the priest personally and I wouldn't back door him (or anyone else I'm involved or associated with for that matter) like that. That's just the way I am.

A post script to it all is that he and the priest that was with him went to Peru to be missionaries to work with the poor. Go figure.

I actually do respect him for his beliefs because I believe he sincerely thinks he's doing and saying the right thing. Unfortunately, he's too blinded by his beliefs to see reality.

[tabatha]

11. The proof is in the pudding.

Abortions dropped under Clinton.

[Gman]

18. The real reason abortion is legal now is

it's a great fundraising and GOTV issue for the GOP. At one time during Bush, the GOP controlled all 3 branches of government. They could have outlawed abortion and the SCOTUS would have overturned Roe v Wade with the legislation and we couldn't have done a damn thing about it at the time. But that would have killed the goose that lays the golden egg. Many social conservatives/evangelicals would sit at home on election day because there is no greater issue or even there is no other issue with them than abortion.

The GOP may be idiots, but they're not stupid. I take immense pleasure in pointing this out to my issue-oriented conservative friends. In other words to them I'm saying they're being played for fools.

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. A Picture of him and the pope

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Antonio+Maria+Rouco+Varela+World+Youth+Day+WAxbE5_UTpEl.jpg


And who do they speak for?

[fasttense]

5. Life is just so sacred that when Jesus was alive, they

dumped unwanted babies into garbage piles. If you took the baby and raised it, it was your slave.

One Roman soldier out on deployment advised his pregnant wife that if she gave birth to a girl, dump her by the side of the river.

Never did Jesus speak out against these practices.

And the word abortion never appears in any bible.

Life isn’t all that sacred to some Christians, they just pretend.

[lunatica]

7. Well I can definitely see the connection between abortions and jobs, er, lack of jobs

WTF!

[HillWilliam]

8. Of course joblessness isn't important to a priest

He's got a lovely work-free, sweat-free living with housing and meals provided, by grace of pensioners eating cat food to support his lazy azz, plus an added bonus of hot and cold running choirboys and acolytes. Given all those perks (not to mention the lovely hats and gowns) I can see why joblessness isn't important to him.

I've been jobsearching since last March (getting weary of it). It's sure as hell important to me. The good archbishop needs to climb down off the throne and get some understanding of what's really going on in the world.

And the Vatican wonders why the RCC is quickly losing relevance by continually shooting itself in the foot.

/rant

[rocktivity]

9. Less joblessness might be the solution to less abortion, says Rocktivity

(if you'll pardon the smiley)
rocktivity

[spanone]

10. clueless....

[Solly Mack]

14. Fart noises

[krispos42]

17. Yeah, because lots more people will definitly reduce unemployment n/t

[marmar]

19. And the official Catholic Church wonders why it's on the high-speed train to irrelevancy.......

nt

[WinkyDink]

22. Guess again. There are continents other than North America.

[WinkyDink]

21. No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[CatholicEdHead]

25. No surprise it is a worldwide thing

The US Bishops are all going on the same line, all "social" issues of abortion, gay marriage, and contraception. They totally ignore anything with helping the poor and unemployed. I guess to rise in Rome you throw the poor and unemployed under the bus.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Why the fuck does anyone listen to those people, again?

For that matter, how come the entire racket hasn't been dragged before an international criminal court on charges of conspiring to help child abusers escape justice?