I'm not relating to this need to reconcile with alleged Obama voters who voted for #fakepresident

[Cary]

How many of these are There? 2? I know of no one, personally, who did this.

We won the popular vote. We are the majority already.

Anyone stupid enough to have voted for #fakepresident is already breath takingly stupid and if they aren't remorseful then words just fail. I'm supposed to forgive? Why? I have to be a "good sport?"

No f***ing way.

Condemn these assholes. Are they racist? You bet they are. They need to fall to the ground and beg for forgiveness, for their own salvation. I still cannot forgive.

Yes, what they did is that bad. Don't enable them.

[BeyondGeography]

1. Try anywhere from 6.7 million to 8.4 million

Good analysis here:

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/

Don’t quit your day job.

[leftstreet]

2. Interesting!

Thanks for posting that

[Squinch]

65. Follow the links. The study doesn't actually exist.

[vi5]

3. Well.....fuck em if they don't fit my narrative!!

Kidding. I'm kidding. I think this is an important subject and something we need to look at. But for certain people who want to believe what they believe no matter what, and largely that seems to be "Nobody on our side did anything wrong at all in 2016 and we don't need to change anything!!" this is information is.....what is the term for it....an "inconvenient truth"?

[Cary]

16. Sorry, I am not of or for anyone who voted for #fakepresident

If you wish to associate yourself with them that's your business but don't speak for me.

[Bradshaw3]

39. Facts are facts and it's a losing strategy to ignore them

We want to win back this government and to do that you have to and can win in states where there aren't a lot of ethnic groups and other reliably Democratic voters. So yeah, if the millions of Obama/trump voters want to vote Democratic again, you say "Yeah".

Winning elections is how you set legislative agendas, appoint judges and help people who truly need it. Amazing how many people on this board don't seem to understand that.

[Snackshack]

53. Yep.

But still there are those who think that writing those voters off is going to be a winning strategy...and it is not.

[Cary]

58. I'm not buying any of this

[Hortensis]

51. Cary, respectfully suggest if you can't forgive, just shut up.

Same advice I have for those who have a hair up for women who achieve leadership positions.

If you really care about taking control of congress away from the Republicans and their evil masters, focus on exercising some self discipline and voting when it's time.

[Cary]

70. Not.buying that either.

[BeyondGeography]

28. The road to acceptance on this board can be very long

The denial is thick.

[brush]

73. What's even more inconvienient is that the election was stolen. And then there was Comey.

[vi5]

82. Yeah, fuck whoever appointed that Republican shill Comey!!!

See how things don't always fit into neat little boxes?

[JI7]

4. That means hillary got millions of voters that didn't vote for Obama

Voting for obama doesn't excuse their shittyness on voting for trump.

But based on actual results I'm pretty sure that number is inflated anyways.

[Cary]

11. I have a hard time believing it too

[karynnj]

17. In reality, that happens in comparisons between any consecutive elections

Conside there is a cohort of people who were eligible to vote for the first time in 2016. This includes all youngest votes born over a 4 year span.

I know one Romney to Clinton voter -- she is very Republican, though not particulary interested in political issues, but she was disgusted by Trump's comments - starting with inappropriate comments about his daughter. I am sure she was not alone.

[Bradshaw3]

41. Numerous easy to look up studies have been done on this topic

And they all show around 10 percent of the electorate which translates to millions of voters, no matter how much some on here find it hard to take.

[Squinch]

8. Ah, yes, Sabato. Favorite of Fox News and Rasmussen, seldom correct in his predictions.

So I'm not going to bet my house on the accuracy of his extrapolated numbers here.

[BeyondGeography]

19. Heres an NYT article if that helps

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.amp.html

We lost a lot of ground with non-college educated whites who voted for Obama, and many of these voters obviously voted for Dems down-ticket:

Just 74 percent of white Obama voters with a high school diploma or less backed Mrs. Clinton in the voter study group cited by Mr. Milbank.

Similarly, the Cooperative Congressional Election Study found that Mrs. Clinton won just 78 percent of white Obama voters without a bachelor’s degree. The figure was even lower in the key Rust Belt battlegrounds.

...The C.C.E.S. found that 26 percent of Obama-Trump voters identified as Democrats in their postelection study, while 35 percent were Republicans and 37 percent were independents. Including those independents who lean toward a party, Republicans led by a wider margin of 45 percent to 30 percent. Even so, that’s a significant share who continue to identify with the Democratic Party despite voting for Mr. Trump.

Democrats were probably still winning a lot of these voters in 2016. The results speak for themselves to some extent. Jason Kander lost his Senate race in Missouri by just three percentage points, even as Mrs. Clinton lost by 20 points. Even Democrats who didn’t run ahead of Mrs. Clinton over all — like Tammy Duckworth in Illinois, Russ Feingold in Wisconsin or Katie McGinty in Pennsylvania — nonetheless ran far ahead of Mrs. Clinton in traditionally Democratic, white working-class areas.

Mrs. Duckworth’s performance is probably the most telling. She won Illinois’s 12th Congressional District — a downstate, working-class district now held by Republican Mike Bost — by nine points. Mr. Trump won it by 12 points.

[Squinch]

22. Haven't we had this same conversation about this same article before? Follow down the links

and see if you can find the survey they are talking about. I click the link to the survey and I get a website. I search in the searchbox for "Obama Trump voter." I get an article called "Why Clinton Lost Part 1"

In that article, there is no study, only a reference to a study and a footnote. The footnote does not link to the study.

So then I go to the American National Election Survey for 2016. That is supposed to be where this study was done. And when you go to their site and search "Trump Obama" there is no article that gives any information about how many Trump voters voted for Obama.

It does, however, link me back to Sabato and to your NYT article. It's all just a big loop, and there doesn't seem to be any underlying study for us to look at.

So what's up with that?

[sheshe2]

23. Boom!

Thank you Squinch!

[BeyondGeography]

25. Or you could always ask yourself

why Kander, Duckworth et al got so many more votes than Hillary from working class whites. Problem at the top of the ticket? Nah.

[Squinch]

30. Ugh. So your whole argument here is just a Clinton trashing, then, is it? Walked right into that,

didn't I?

The conversation, before you derailed it with THAT bullshit, was asking if there actually were a lot of voters who went from Obama to Trump.

Not that you are actually engaging in that conversation (Clinton bashing is too, too distracting, I guess) but in answer to THAT conversation, the one that this thread is about, I have yet to see evidence there were voters who went from Obama to Trump. And in the absence of that evidence, I am much more likely to believe, say, this:

https://www.salon.com/2016/11/27/obama-to-trump-voters-are-not-a-myth-mdash-but-theyre-also-not-the-real-story/


which says, essentially, some Obama voters stayed home and some traditional non-voters came out to vote for Trump.

BUT... far be it from me to get in the way of an obsession. Carry on with your yelling at clouds.

[BeyondGeography]

32. Oh boy, round and round we go

Here's what I think:

-More than two people switched from Obama to Trump.
-Whatever their social views, a lot of those voters still vote for Democrats, as evidenced by the CCES data and actual 2016 vote tallies in working class white districts.
-In order to recapture PA, OH, MI, WI and IA, our 2020 nominee should probably figure out how to win more votes from this crowd.

Now back to the clouds.

[Squinch]

35. Then perhaps you should have argued those points rather

than putting forward trashy arguments and trashy references that had nothing to do with any of those points.

And tell you what: you find out what makes that "more than two" voters tick. Really get into their psyches so you can figure out what ethical contortions we'd have to make so they won't be "disaffected" any more.

I'll be busy getting out the votes of women and people of color , you know, the backbone of our party. I know that doesn't cater to the demographic that thinks its the most important in the world, but hey, it worked in Alabama. Might just work in Ohio.

[BeyondGeography]

38. It takes a village

[JI7]

49. They don't want a village where women are equal

[Cary]

55. Read Joshua Green's book.

The Devil's Bargain.

There you will read about how Steve Bannon used the New York Times. It sounds like you may have fallen in.

[Bradshaw3]

43. Numerous studies back this up

You are free to look them up but it probably wouldn't do any good. Isn't trashing them the same as yelling "Fake news"?

[Squinch]

48. Link to one.

[standingtall]

60. There is not one study that can prove

that 6 to 8 million Obama voters voted for Trump. Hilary got just 200,000 votes less than Obama in did in 2012. The actual election day math refutes whatever such study suggest such a thing. If Hilary lost 6 to 8 million Obama voters she would've done much worse.

[Squinch]

63. PS: Isn't claiming there are "numerous studies" when there are not the same as yelling "Fake news?"

[Cary]

9. My day job is convincing people with logic and reason and I'm damn good at it

What is illogical is any notion that it's worth my effort or concern to try to convince idiots to not be idiots.

Some will. Some won't. So what? Next.

The best and only use of my time and energy in this context, since you seem to feel the onus is on me, is to get rational voters to the polls. If we vote, we win. I don't have to worry about anyone voting for #fakepresident any more than I have to worry about your opinion of me.

[mythology]

21. I think if you have to tell people you're good at something you probably

Aren't nearly as good at it as you think. For example, the logic in saying that because you don't know anyone who voted for Obama and Trump means there weren't any, is really really silly. You don't know a statically significant population to prove a valid sample to make that claim. An anecdote doesn't equal data.

[Cary]

56. I think you have nothing to say about how good I am

You don't know me and you're not qualified to judge me.

Nor do you have any valid reason to insult me.

[NCTraveler]

29. And two and a half Romney voters went for Clinton.

Go after those who didn't vote.

[Caliman73]

34. Exactly!! 2.5 million Romney voters voted for Hillary.

People are squabbling about something like 13% of voters who voted for Trump when 46% of the entire eligible electorate didn't even bother to cast any vote whatsoever.

Democrats need to focus on local issues in local races. For the national races we need to focus on government working to protect and enhance the lives of the average citizen and those most vulnerable to the abuses of the powerful.

The powerful will always get their share and more. We are just trying to make sure that everyone else gets enough to have a decent life.

Hillary Clinton would have fought for that.

[NCTraveler]

37. +1 nt.

[mountain grammy]

59. Agree!

[Cary]

57. Thank you.

That ought to be obvious.

But no, some people try so hard to distract us.

[stevenleser]

33. Self reported and the numbers don't match.

Even in the lower 6.7 million number, it provides a higher count for Obama than what he received.

Something is wrong with those numbers.

[LexVegas]

5. Fuck 'em. nt

[msongs]

6. in general it is a good idea to get MORE people to vote for you nt

[Cary]

10. Trying to appeal to everyone is irrational

[Bradshaw3]

44. Appealing to voters who have voted Democratic is smart

[Cary]

54. Picking the lowest.hanging fruit is smart

Chasing windmills, not so much.

[DonCoquixote]

76. not to the point where

the trump voters say "if you want me, you better get rid of them, them being gays, women, and anyone else that the selkkf described majority does not like.

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. You should call Skip Bayless and catch up nt

[Cary]

14. So you think #fakepresident voters are akin to elite athletes

Good thinking.

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. No, I think you are wrong on an epic scale and you could relate to Skip Bayless

who seems in similar denial.

There are Obama voters who voted for Trump. More than two. You've been provided with evidence - deal with it.

[sheshe2]

24. See post 22...

No evidence at all.

[Cary]

62. Do you suppose he/she will own that?

My money is on no.

[sheshe2]

64. That would be a no, Cary.

Sad, isn't it.

Me? I am supporting Democrats and voting for Democrats. Full stop.

[Cary]

69. Of course you are

[sheshe2]

71. We are doing it.

One step at a time, yet our steps are moving us forward.

[Cary]

61. Evidence?

Ha!

Now be decent enough to apologize.

[ismnotwasm]

12. There is a misconception

That a vote for Obama, means one can’t be a racist shithead. It’s the political equivalent of “my black friend” or “my black grandchild”. It’s a disgusting way to think actually, and deliberately minimizes the reality of bigotry.

I’m not having it either. We are in a moment in history, a powerful one, and I believe there coming to us a choice, a choice between becoming anti-racist, or becoming a historical footnote.

On edit: the actual numbers don’t matter, anyone who thinks that bigots don’t number in the 10s of millions at the least isn’t paying attention

[Cary]

15. Corrects the actual numbers don't matter

Agreed.

[Aristus]

13. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[samir.g]

18. Fuck'em

[sheshe2]

26. Excellent OP...

Thank you, Cary. I agree with you 100%.

[EffieBlack]

27. A lot of people say this, but it hasnt really been documented - and I dont believe them

I find t hard to believe that many people who voted for Obama then turned around and voted for Trump.

I think it’s an effort to prove they’re not bigots - kind of like claiming some of their best friends are black. “I voted for a black man, so how DARE you call me racist!”

[Sophia4]

31. If they voted for Obama but not for Hillary, they may be sexist, but they probably

aren't racist.

Just a minor detail, but Hillary did win the popular vote. She should be president.

Be angry at the electoral college not at the voters. She was elected democratically..

Donald was put into the White House by the oligarchy.

[Squinch]

36. If they voted for Trump, they voted for a racist. Therefore, racism is just fine with them.

Therefore they are racist.

[Demsrule86]

42. Trump is clearly a racist...so most of them are...or it isn't important to them which is sort of the

samething.

[Sophia4]

50. Many of them just don't care about race. They think it is a nonissue.

In a way, it's an indirect form of racism, but mostly it is just a part of not caring about anyone but themselves. Lack of empathy.

[Squinch]

66. "Just not caring" that you are sending a screaming racist to the White House is extremely racist.

[Sophia4]

72. I don't disagree with you at all.

But many of them would not react or seem racist if you met them.

[Squinch]

74. But, in fact, they ARE racist.

[Sophia4]

75. Not if they actually meet someone who belongs to a different race.

They just don't think about race.

[Squinch]

79. Trump's message was one big proclamation of racism and sexism. There was nothing

else to it. It is naïve to say that anyone wasn't thinking about race when they pulled that lever.

Those who voted for him did so because they thought the black guys and the Mexican guys and the women are getting too uppity and the Donald was going to save them from that.

That is all. They think about race. They think about race all the time and then they go out and buy another gun.

[Demsrule86]

80. It is an indirect form of racism as you said...and why should they expect others to care about them

when they are carefornobodies...either they wake up or the right destroys them.

[Cary]

83. I belieive it is generally referred to as

Casual racism.

[Demsrule86]

84. Cary I have never heard that term...but it fits.

Thanks.

[Demsrule86]

40. You don't go out of your way for those voters...in my opinion.

[Tom Rinaldo]

45. I've made my views on this question known here

I wrote an OP yesterday: Reliably Blue States and the U.S. Senate
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210363419

I'll discuss it if you are interested. Note I expanded the content in a post to the initial OP

[EffieBlack]

46. The issue is not about reaching out to 2012 Obama voters who voted for Trump

I have no problem reaching out to Trump voters who voted for Obama in 2012 and now regret their vote for Trump and won't vote for him again. People make mistakes.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to reach out to or support my party reaching out to ANYONE, whether or not they voted for Obama in the past, if they STILL support Trump today with all they know about him now. Anyone who supports him now is not only unreachable - because what else are we going to tell them that they haven't heard and rejected out of hand? - they are clearly sympathetic to his views and behavior. In other words, they're ok with racism or, more likely, are bigots themselves.

[Paladin]

47. My sentiments exactly. To hell with these douchebags.

Any time and effort expended to coax their sorry asses back to our side is time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere. Check back with me in 10 years or so---maybe I'll be in a more forgiving mood. No promises.

[Cary]

68. +1,002.36

[Corvo Bianco]

52. My pa is one and he's not worth a single breath from a sentient being.

Condemn them to hell and write them out of your life. Your attempts to turn their brain on will be as fruitful as asking your cat for money.

[Squinch]

67. I am sorry for your troubles Corvo. That is a difficult thing to deal with.

[KPN]

77. We are all very frustrated and angry about 2016

and what we consequently are experiencing today. It's fucked. But with all due respect, that doesn't by any measure justify ignoring facts. We need to accept it and move forward as effectively as we can. That doesn't mean we give an inch, it just means we do better. And we can.

[raging moderate]

78. The right-wing media spread outrageous lies about Hillary Clinton.

I have seen and heard many statements from people who voted for Trump because they had been convinced that Hillary had committed many crimes. By the way, John Kerry also lost many votes due to vicious slander, and I believe the Bush administration later awarded these liars with Congressional medals of honor. When they got away with that, the Repubs just got bolder and bolder. Some of the lies about Hillary were ludicrous, but they were believed by enough people to put Trump in the White House. One woman said she had noticed that any time we accused Trump of something, she always found out that Hillary and Bill had actually done it. This may be a clue to the right-wing strategy. I think we need to counter these lies more effectively next time, maybe more proactively. Because they will do it again. And their followers are fairly easy to fool.

[Cary]

81. Lee Atwater apologized on his death bed

Yes, they are lying scum and the morons who vote for them are enablers. Being nice and being forgiving hasn't worked. It's time to condemn the liars and anyone who enables or echoes the liars. That includes the utterly useless radical left.