For a Forum devoted to Democratic Party and Democratic Coalition activists

[Tom Rinaldo]

All of us facing the greatest threat to our Democracy in our lifetimes with Trump in power, all of us united in wanting to see every Republican running in a special election defeated by his or her Democratic opponent, all of us counting off the days until a Blue Tsunami breaks across America in November of 2018, all of us seemingly in agreement on 97% of issues and 92% of priorities for America...

There sure is a hell of a lot of bitter anger and finger pointing expressed daily on DU. We are at each other's throats almost as often as not. We accuse each other of not caring about what is really important, or who is really important. We draw bold bright strokes about who are the real heroes and who are selling out our ideals among us. Every possible point of stress within the broad American Democratic coalition is the focal point of heightened tension. Fissures are growing and there is the smell of gasoline in the air. If I didn't know better I would say that a cyber ops campaign was being waged against us. But who would have the means or motivation to do that?

[fleabiscuit]

1. I think that ship sailed in 2016, but there are still a few dinghies trying to catch up. nt

[comradebillyboy]

2. How come Our Revolution was organizing a protest of Hillary's Rutgers speech

until Jeff Weaver told them to knock it off? Their anger seems mainly aimed at Democrats who haven't bent the knee. Look at the people that the Russians supported in the last election cycle. Then ask why there is anger and finger pointing. Too many 'progressives' focus their anger on Democrats and minimize the damage being done by the Trump administration.

When 'progressives' attack their nominal Democratic allies instead of the Trump admin and their republican enablers they get push back from good Democrats. Moderate Democrats are not the enemy.

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. I didn't say moderate Democrats are the enemy

I won't say progressives are the enemy either. I don't agree with some decisions some "moderate Democrats" make and I don't agree with some decisions some "progressives" make either.

There are natural forces (meaning not cynically manipulated) that tend to strain the unity of a multi racial, multi cultural, urban, suburban, rural, national, age and gender diverse etc. coalition such as the one Democrats depend on to win elections. There is always more than enough to feel passionately about, with more than enough justification. People differ for too many reasons to be quantified.

With some regularity I find myself to be on one side or another of a potentially divisive issue on DU, just like life in so many ways. I always have choices to make about how to process those areas of disagreement. What I am addressing in this OP is I think an inconvenient truth, to borrow Al Gore's phrase. Those who are motivated to sow division for the sake of division do so by mimicking all sides of a legitimate debate. It is the debate itself, not the issues itself they care about. They don't want paths toward commonality, they want more bitterness. And trolls guided by the intelligence agency of a major nation state that is adversarial to American democracy can sometimes operate at pretty sophisticated levels. We are not merely facing the garden variety Free Republic type trolls from years gone by any longer.

I admit that I usually can't tell an overly emotional or somewhat obsessed person on my side of any of the things that tend to inflame tempers on DU from an actual troll, so I sure as hell don't think I can nail that distinction in regards to those I find myself disagreeing with.

I advocate deep breaths and a degree of caution, for myself as much as for anyone else.

[hedda_foil]

14. Our Revolution didn't organize it. It was a small local group independently of the national org.

When the national found out, they put the kibosh on the idea.

[comradebillyboy]

18. OR didn't call it off until Jeff Weaver called them out on

Sunday night. OR took it off of their site on Monday.

[hedda_foil]

20. They're a bunch of jackasses but they are not representative of the organization and keeping that s

That's against the rules and we need to stop picking fights with each other.

[comradebillyboy]

21. OK...truce

[Demsrule86]

25. But that is the thing...they are representative of OR if you read Nina Turner's own words.

Groups like this are deliberated divisive and by primarying Senators like Manchin they hurt our effort for a Democratic majority. The anger comes from fear because losing in 16 was almost a death blow to progressive policy...and right now we are fighting for our lives and policy dating back to Roosevelt. Trump is the biggest threat in my lifetime and must be stopped...all differences need to be put aside to do this...and we need to have a serious discussion that involves winning ...how do we win? How do we stop the Republicans. We can't govern if we don't win.

[samnsara]

27. i agree

[octoberlib]

3. Tom Rinaldo, where have you been for the past 100 years?

Psychologists: Getting Liberals to Agree Really is Like Herding Cats


When he was President, Bill Clinton famously (and perhaps apocryphally) complained that getting Democrats to agree on a course of action was like herding cats, while the Republicans didn’t seem to have this problem. All political parties are large coalitions of people with varied interests and beliefs, but is it possible that ideological differences between the parties could play a decisive role here?

A new paper by researchers at New York University, in press at Psychological Science, suggests that the answer is yes. A large body of psychological research has shown that people tend to overestimate how much others share their beliefs, feelings, and practices. But this new research suggests that this is not the case for those on the left end of the political spectrum – in fact, it’s quite the opposite. Conservatives and moderates overestimated the degree to which other conservatives and moderates were like them, while liberals assumed they were more unique among party peers than they actually were. This “liberal uniqueness” perceptive bias could help to explain why it’s harder to get Democrats to fall in line than it is for Republicans.

Anyone who’s ever been part of a liberal counter-cultural clique will recognize this pressure to be unique, which can easily turn into an arms race. You’ve got a tattoo? Well, my skin is nothing but tattoos. You make artisanal pickles? Well, I make artisanal horseradish. You have a pet ferret? Well, I have a pet camel. And so on. But it’s this motivation to be unique – even among other liberals – that makes liberals alike. It’s a bit like the scene from Monty Python’s Life of Brian where a crowd of hundreds chants in unison: “Yes, we are all individuals! Yes, we are all different!”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/psychologists-getting-liberals-to-agree-really-is-like-herding-cats/

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. To answer your question, usually in the thick of it

And forest fires start organically in the wilderness under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean that an arsonist can't move that process along a little farther a little faster. Probably because I've been in the thick of it so long, including being active at DU since 2003, I can notice when there are intense spikes in the basic background radiation of divisiveness we Democrats live with daily.

I'm just saying that all the arsonists didn't disappear after the 2016 election. Why would they have? As Smokey likes to say, only we can prevent forest fires

[octoberlib]

11. You have a very good point.

[marlakay]

9. Reminds me of living in Humboldt County

For two years. Most liberal place I have ever lived and the most highly opinionated and argumentative meetings I have ever been in.

I came to conclusion that we are not afraid to stand up for what we believe in, but me personally I am enjoying living in a more peaceful area now.

[jalan48]

6. I think our identity politics has contributed to this.

My group before the Party mentality.

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. OK this offers a good potential case in point

A real discussion can be had about what you just wrote, or it can lead instead to a flame fest. Identity politics is a pretty controversial subject, for a number of good reasons. I don;t know if I actually agree with you, but it is becoming more difficult than it used to be to discuss charged subjects in good faith on DU.

[NCTraveler]

7. Kiss my ass. Keep your lecture to yourself.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. Don't expect me to service your perversions

(I don't have that "sarcasm" thingie or I would insert it here.)

[shanny]

29. FYI the sarcasm thingie

is in the expanded list of smilies: click on the "..." at the end.

Great op, btw--thank you

[Trumpocalypse]

12. Healthy discussion of issues is a good thing

I would like to see more of that here and less of 'cult of personality' BS.

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. So would I

But they tend to become "team" arguments almost instantly instead. We don't do nuance well enough which is a shame, because there are so many bright and thoughtful people on this board which could give us all a chance to reexamine our positions on things if we weren't so obsessed with obliterating the arguments of our "opponents" here.

[hedda_foil]

15. Thank you for this.

The infighting is ridiculous and indicative of cyber ops. Not accusing anyone of I'll will, but it smells like trollwork.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. What Tom and Hedda Said

It is, as you said Hedda, ridiculous.

[demmiblue]

16. I put all the divisive drama llamas on ignore.

I think some of them need to get out every once in a while.

[McCamy Taylor]

17. Divide and Conquer has aways been Capitals favorite tool

in the war against workers.

[UTUSN]

19. We're Dems - we believe/practice free thought ( conflict)

[DFW]

22. I guess we should be flattered if we are important enough to warrant sabotage

Whoda thunk it, right? Мы так важны, товарищи? Правильно?

I THINK (can't know for sure) I have seen deliberate disruption as well as sincere expressions of frustration. I generally dismiss the "I Hate Hillary" crowd as well as the ones that only show up to defend Monsanto. Motives are rarely as transparent as theirs.

But there are surely members here to whom fate has not been kind, whether it's nature (health, etc.), social circumstances (isolation, bad luck in love, oppressive family, etc.), or just cruel fate economically (stuff just never worked out, shit happens). Because we can't, or shouldn't dismiss them out of hand, and their cries are sometimes (often justifiably) shrill, I have never yet put anyone on ignore on DU. I have been put on ignore (I found out), but so what? Different strokes for different folks, so whatever floats their boat.

I try, not always successfully, to stay out of the ugliest of gutters, and look for consensus and/or relevant questions, as well as interesting news. I think that's about all anyone can expect on a board like this.

[Docreed2003]

30. Sage advice and input as always DFW!

[DFW]

31. Oh, I'm sure there are plenty who will find me full or crap, as usual.

It's not like we need to let it ruin our day, right?

[Docreed2003]

32. No, indeed not...lol

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. Yup. But some flattery we can do without

"I THINK (can't know for sure) I have seen deliberate disruption as well as sincere expressions of frustration."

Absolutely. I think it highly likely that there is much much more sincere expressions of frustration than deliberate disruption around here. And I too can never know for sure which is which, which is one reason why I was careful with this OP to not in any way point fingers in any direction. Actual disruption will come from any direction that can be weaponized to achieve its end - which literally is disruption.

One of the most potent forms of sowing disruption though literally is by stoking bitterness, grievances and anger. Potent of course precisely because there are always powerful legitimate reasons for any sane person to have those emotions. But an overdose of them can be brain warping. Have you seen the documentary "The Brainwashing of My Dad?" That is one scary film that explores something so many of us have seen happen by examining the techniques used to grow self enclosed self isolating bubbles of anger that distort all reality.

This is from a NY Times Review:

"A lot of people, especially on the liberal side of the spectrum, will certainly identify with “The Brainwashing of My Dad,” Jen Senko’s documentary about how right-wing news programs, talk shows and Internet sites turned her once reasonable father into a raging embodiment of intolerance and suspicion. The film, though, feels as if it’s arriving late to its discoveries and, given the current political climate, as if it’s only scratching the surface...

,,,The film has an interesting segment on the neurology of the phenomenon — how alarm is addictive, how repetition of the same messages transforms the brain — but the subject is left underexplored."
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+brainwashing+of+my+father&t=ffnt&ia=web

Clearly, in my opinion anyway, these same techniques have been employed to disrupt the left as well. Obviously they were directed at some Sanders supporters, when Mission A was to defeat Hillary Clinton, but Mission B has always been to disable the Democratic Coalition, and Mission C has been to disrupt our literal Democracy itself. Just because Mission A was accomplished is no reason to think that ongoing efforts are not still underway to accomplish Missions B and C, or that only those previously inclined to support Bernie Sanders are now being targeted.

[PA Democrat]

23. I've been on DU since January 2004 and have been distressed as of late at

what feels like an unprecedented amount of divisiveness and anger here. And sadly, some of the most active threads are the ones that contain the most vitriolic posts. I love a good debate, but it seems there is much more emphasis on "winning the thread" at whatever cost than on a constructive exchange of ideas. Broad brush is in and nuance is out.

We are facing the most significant risk to the ideals that we as Democrats can pretty much ALL agree share. In fact, we are facing an ominous threat to our very democracy.

I implore people to keep our eyes on the prize. Use a little more respectful discourse. When you see a post that evokes a strong emotional response, maybe wait a few minutes before responding. Focus more on what binds us together.

Thanks for this discussion, Tom.

[Demsrule86]

24. Great post. There are trolls here...I know this as I was stalked by one...works

with the kid...he is a registered Republican and has at least one sign on...told son like to make trouble cause division...don't know his sign on or even his name. I change my twitter because of it after a long lecture from the kid. I believe we need a big tent ...50 state solution. It is the only way we get power back and I pledge to vote Democratic alway in every general election as you pointed out we agree most of the time.

[Tom Rinaldo]

35. Count me in Demsrule86

With only the possible exception of a VERY local race (I live in a small town), like for Highway Superintendent or Town Clerk, I will be voting Democratic, this year especially. Every Democrat who wins any race sends another message that we will not role over for Trumpism.

[Vinca]

28. Agreed. I avoid certain topic lines because some seem like ginned up anger.

Some cyber ops people have been doing it so long they're apt to have a 3 or 4 figure post count. Depending on the tone of the post, it sometimes makes me suspicious.

[FarCenter]

33. Is it different than the arguments you would have heard in neighborhood bars pre-internet?

There has always been a robust political discussion among the people.

But before the internet, there was no platform on which to be heard, since the media were controlled by the rich and powerful.