Frum, Schmidt, Kristol et al.

[Cary]

I appreciate them beyond words. Their clarity offers me hope.

Alas, they did contribute mightily to the catastrophe they so aptly recognize today. The cynical Southern Strategy and anything goes dog whistle, no integrity Koch funded approach left the door wide open to #fakepresident and his cult followers. It's not like we haven't been complaining about this for decades. I'm saying we told you so, so much as I am asking whether the Frum, Schmidt, Kristol acknowledgement goes far enough.

Do they merely treat the symptom and not the cause? Is that good enough?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. They put the monster together and threw the switch.

They just didn't expect the rampage through the countryside that ensued.

[Cary]

2. What's done is done

I'm sort of asking them to acknowledge their role.

Or am I asking too much?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. I don't know if it's dawned on them yet, or if it will.

Steve Schmidt was partly responsible for McCain's choice of Sarah Palin, who helped make Trump possible by turning policy debates into crazy right-wing insult sessions. He seems to have figured out what a disaster she was but it was too late. Maybe he's atoning for that sin, but I'd love it if he'd confess in so many words what he set loose on the country, and why.

[Cary]

6. Exactly what I'm trying to say

Be conservative without the racist roots, only I'm not sure that's possible. At it's core, it seems to me, all conservative roads lead to racism.

[jrthin]

29. For years, I have said and believe that if you scratch a republican,

you'll find a bigot.

[Cary]

35. Unfortunately that is true

Most of them want it both ways. They want to be "free" to be bigots without being called out for what they really are.

[Dawson Leery]

36. They chose Palin in a piss poor attempt to peel away women voters.

The right thought they were so smart with their "PUMA" movement after the primary.

[malaise]

25. That simple

Fugg 'em all.

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. They contributed to the non stop lying about Hillary for 25 years

they made SURE this could happen, they just didnt want it to upset their profit center, and the traitor does that.

[Cary]

12. How about John Dean?

Or Bruce Bartlett?

Where do they fit in?

I don't find Frum or Schmidt to be beyond redemption. Kristol, arch neocon? I lean not beyond redemption. I guess I don't find them 100% redeemed.

I have no problem with them being Republicans. We need two parties. I don't see them ever fitting in with that party, ever again.

As I said I have to process this some more.

[Eliot Rosewater]

14. Dean was in a position to right his wrongs and he did.

Bartlett supply side?

I dont care about their redemption either way but I am grateful they are speaking out, too few are.

This whole thing happened primarily because of people on the left whining about Hillary. We could have overcome Comey direct intentional attempt to steal the election or that traitor Chaffetz who released it.

We could have maybe even overcome Putin, although I still dont know how much vote count interference there was on election day, which I dont need proof for, and the question is can they do it again.

[Cary]

17. I agree 100%

But being undermined by erstwhile Democrats is a different issue. The erstwhile Democrats have shown no remorse as far as I can tell. They are dug in.

Nothing I have done seems to matter. Anything I have ever done to reach out to erstwhile Democrats results in gaslighting so that tells me I'm better off condemning radicals.

[Cary]

18. Funny.

Frum, Schmidt, and Kristol seem more reachable to me than radicals. It's kind of like when radical leftists periodically tell me they see commonality with #fakepresident cult followers.

[Eliot Rosewater]

20. Kaching you hit the jackpot. Anyone who sees any commonality

with deplorables is not working toward the same goals I am.

[Blue_true]

40. I think that Dean and Bartlett redeemed themselves a while ago.

Dean has been a consistent voice for moderate and liberal causes for close to three decades. Bartlett fought against racial profiling for voting in Florida, he outed an extensive attempt by the Florida Republican Party and Florida legislators to tilt voting toward republicans strongly, and I think that he also quit that party at around the same time.

Other republicans come lately to our side? They have to show conclusively that they NOW understand that it was us who were fighting for democracy and patriotism all along.

[PJMcK]

5. It's a problem, isn't it?

These are strange times in the Era of Trump and weird things have happened.

Bill Kristol has been spectacularly wrong for decades yet he's still a reliable source? But in his articulated rejection of Trump, he's my ally.

Steve Schmidt, along with Kristol, brought us Sarah Palin and opened the door to the crazies culminating in Trump. Thanks, guys.

And yet, Schmidt has mostly redeemed himself. He's done something few Republicans ever do: he apologized. He admitted his error. And he's been virulently anti-Trump. Again, a strange ally.

David From will forever be an enigma. While he was intensely partisan against Democrats, his hatred and disrespect for Trump surpasses anything he ever wrote or said about Clinton or Obama. His reporting has been accurate and brutal. So now, he's an ally, too?!

Weird times. I hope we get back to normal within my lifetime. This hurts.

[Cary]

9. I hope I can process this dilemma

I do so want to like them but I am not sure they are reconstructed.

[RandomAccess]

16. It's the perfect political arrangement:

BIPARTISAN on some issues, and not on others. COMPROMISE, I think it's called (as in Politics is the art of Compromise).

I'm frankly having a LOT of trouble with those who absolutely refuse to see how valuable it is to have allies on "the other side," and who refuse to forgive -- or even just overlook -- their other sins.

We NEED at least 2 parties in this country. So we either need a new party to come forward successfully, or we need the GOP to get its shit together and start behaving. If they can't, then I think what will happen is that the Democratic party will calve into two parts, eventually.

[PJMcK]

22. Kindly remember something important

These three men were extremely partisan just a few short years ago. If they are coming to the table of "negotiated compromises," that's nice but they're a bit late, wouldn't you say?

[RandomAccess]

26. I haven't forgotten that at all, but

you've got it wrong --

They're NOT coming to any table of negotiated compromises at this point. They are still extremely partisan -- but not crazy and not necessarily at all comfortable with what the GOP is doing these days --and will no doubt remain so. They're merely aligning with us against Trump. I value their contribution. As someone on Twitter (one of the pundits -- maybe Rick Wilson) said to a liberal friend of his: I look forward to the day we can get back to arguing about policy."

If your expectations / demands are that they should become something they're not, I think that would be unrealistic, unnecessary and counterproductive.

[Major Nikon]

28. Trump isnt the problem. Hes a symptom

Their problem is far deeper.

[procon]

7. They still can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Yes, these men might be speaking sweet words that Democrats want to hear, but it's part of their well oiled economic opportunity plan. The simple truth is they make more money by aiming their appealing speeches at Democratic audiences than they do by preaching to the choir on conservative media there they have to compete with everyone else for airtime.

Keep in mind that they are still members of the Republican Party. They still have all their old pals and connection, and attend the same events. They are still voting for Republicans and thereby endorsing and enabling all the mad schemes, the lies, deceptions, bigotry, hate and discrimination that is entrenched in the GOP. Enjoy their act for what it is, performance art, but don't be fooled, when push comes to shove, they will always be Republicans.

[oberliner]

8. They are awful RW hacks

Kristol in particular.

[shadowmayor]

10. Not Kristol

I wouldn't cross the street to piss on his head if his hair was on fire. Don't care that he sounds "reasonable" now - he's one of the most evil PNAC assholes to ever draw a breath of air. The devastation of Iraq seems to be forgotten by too many Americans. He has so much blood on his hands. Hope he chokes on a turd!!! An enemy of my enemy ain't always a friend. And MSNBC should be ashamed for having him on.

[xor]

13. If he ditched his flawed PNAC-type views

then kristol would be the ideal republican, I think. I was hoping he changed his views and he realized he was in error, but despite his attempts to keep those on the down-low these past couple years, I don't think he's changed them at all.

[Cary]

15. And yet he comes off as such a pleasant demeanor

I refer to his presence, not his words.

[shadowmayor]

21. Nonetheless

I'd like to pleasantly peel his face off his skull with a cheese grater. The death and carnage that this "nice sounding" man has cheered for, and his complete lack of apology or remorse for the suffering he helped cause makes him all the more evil. Psychopaths often come across as pleasant - like those poor girls who thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy who needed a hand. Fuck all the neocons now and forever. And again, shame on MSNBC for even putting this asshole on TV.

[xor]

11. I'm familiar with Kristol and Frum, but not so much with Schmidt

Last edited Sat Mar 31, 2018, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I am glad they are out there speaking against Trump and the crazy stuff that's going on, but once Trump is gone they will both be back toward working against us. I find this frustrating with Kristol in particular, because I get a sense that when it comes to domestic issues and social issues he may be more liberal than he is conservative. I could be wrong, but I get that sense from watching his youtube videos. He's smart enough and nuanced to understand the value of social programs and to recognize the issues that minorities face in this country. Yet despite this he seems to dial back at times because he doesn't want to lose his conservative "creds" so that he can push his less intelligent and overly aggressive foreign policy ideas. I find his foreign policies arguments are far less rational and more emotionally based than his stances on Trump and other more domestic issues. This is strange and frustrating. Maybe it's just my interpretation of it because I tend to not agree with him on any level when it comes to foreign policy. At least with other issues I can understand where he's coming from even if I don't agree with it, but the sinking of north korean subs in order to maintain the peace sounds a bit off. I dunno.

Anyway, I don't have much faith that once our common foe is defeated that he won't go back to being 100% on the other side for his own gain. I also don't think he'll ever change his tune on how bombing other countries is the best way to make the world more peaceful (bit simplistic characterization, but I don't think it's that far off)

I think the same can be said about Frum. He's spot on about Trump and he comes off as a reasonable conservative when it comes to some domestic issues. But he will still defend the Iraq war and I'm guessing would defend future questionable wars too.

[RandomAccess]

27. Working against us??

Good grief, man (or woman), they're REPUBLICANS. I'm sure people on the GOP side think of us as "working against them" too.

Unless you're calling for a one-party system, and that system all Dem, we're going to have political opponents forever.

What, exactly, would you like to see instead??

[xor]

37. What would I like to see instead?

I would like to see everyone do everything exactly the way I personally believe it should be done!!! I kids. I kids. I kids. Not really, though. I truly am an evil authoritarian at heart. Nononono.

I actually think I have not have been entirely clear in what I was trying to say. If guys like Kristol ditched their aggressive foreign policy approach and they stuck to their more moderate stances on domestic issues, then I think that's great. My concern is that once Trump is gone and things return somewhat back to their favor, they will lose whatever moderate/nuanced/reasoned stances so that they can get back into power so they can do something stupid. Like, invade Canada. These are the same people who played to the religious right so they could gain power.

[kairos12]

19. They helped create Frankenstein Drumpt. He is part Shrub, Raygun, Nixon, and Palin.

Their current outrage at Drumpt is beyond hysterical, if were not terrible for the rest of us.

[eleny]

23. Frum also often uses weasel words to parse the issue he's asked about

He's not always straightforward but makes excuses for the right wing. I find myself saying to myself, "Wait for it....". Now and then I feel he's spot on and I give him credit for that. But I don't trust any of them when it comes right down to it and that includes Wallace.

[GeorgeHayduke]

24. Remember back when

the PNAC made us pull our hair out?

[vi5]

30. The minute Trump is out...

...they'll be back on the GOP bandwagon and be as a big a boosters of President Pence as anyone else.

Not to mention that they looked the other way and continued to defend when the GOP has been heading down this road for the past 25 or so years. This didn't happen overnight and they were just as much to blame as anyone else. And now they want to claim clarity?

Fuck them.

They are merely trying to avoid a Laura Ingraham style PR disaster.

[Raine]

31. They're nothing but wolves in sheep's clothing

they have an agenda all their own, don't be fooled by them!

[Dawson Leery]

32. I have little need for Anti-Trump Cons.

The moment he is out, they will be back on board.

They made this disaster. Frum wants to go back to Dubya's GOP.
That is the same GOP that ignored the August 6 PDB. The GOP that smeared John Kerry's war record. The GOP that smeared the 9/11 widows. The same GOP that backed Roy Moore for Senate.

The same David Frum that has blown up everything that he thinks Justin Trudeau has done wrong, just to make himself feel better.

Trudeau cannot be compared to Trump in ANY MANNER!

Trump is just the most honest Republican/Conservative around. He has exposed the right for it's putrid nature.

[sharedvalues]

33. The GOP built a propaganda machine to help billionaires

That propaganda machine had an agreement:

Attacking democrats is ok. Dogwhistles are ok. But explicit racism was not ok because Fox and the GOP wanted to claim they were not racist.

And the president broke that agreement. He used racism explicitly. And he coopted the propaganda machine.


Everyone in the gop who contributed to the lying rightwing propaganda machine: donors, GOP billionaires and oligarchs like the Koches and Murdoch and Adelson, and their minions like Schmidt and Kristol and Frum and Ailes — they are all at fault.

At least Schmidt and Kristol and Frum have recognized the problem. But they continue to deny that the GOP created this monster by creating a lying propaganda machine designed to use racism and fear to get votes for billionaires.

[Mr. Ected]

34. I don't think any of them was onboard when the GOP took a hard right, direction Russia

Individually, before, they represented the neocons, the Sarah Palin fiasco, etc., and we drew the line politically and there was no common ground with them, not at all.

The GOP has since veered off in a direction that none of them could have anticipated and none of them would have endorsed. There has been an overthrow of sorts. It started with the Tea Party and then, at some point, the monied interests in the USA began working with the monied interests in Russia and along with the propaganda machinery in place at FOX and Clear Channel co-opted the Russian mind meld technique.

Schmidt, Frum, Kristol and their ilk have truly become Americans without a party. They are decidedly not Democrats, and just because they share our disdain for Trump and agony with the direction of the country, their ideology is distinctly conservative and will remain as such.

For now, they're part of a giant Venn diagram, wherein a large element of the Republican base overlaps with the entirety of the Democratic base in its disgust for the Trump presidency and the flaccid Republican Congress. The ideologues of the GOP are certainly outnumbered by their brainwashed base, and they, like us, feel ostracized and helpless.

Their most endearing feature, at this point, is that they realize that our lack of respect and support for Trump IS NOT POLITICAL. It's patriotic.

[JHB]

38. Here's what may be good standards to use in deciding...

When do they think things went awry? (Hint: if they say something like 2015, then no, it isn't good enough.)

What will they do to change their party? What's their goal? What is the "high point" they want to go back to?

Bush/Cheney? In other words the same thing with a less crass fig leaf?

Reagan? When theses same people were working hard to drive Rockefeller Republicans our of office and neuter their influence within their party (or purge them outright)? And let's not forget what drums they thumped to garner votes for the sainted Gipper.

I'm pretty sure none of them are thinking they need to get to a more balanced party, more like the one that elected Eisenhower. As conservatives, they found that intolerable then, and and still do.

Sure, some of what they say about the state of their party sounds good. Liberals were saying the same things for the last 15 years. And 25 years, and 30 years, etc.

There are precious few who have actually acknowledged how their actions as conservatives helped steer the Republican into its present state of collective dementia. But the guys with media sinecures, the ones who will have no trouble getting gigs on talk show by repeating stuff posted during the Shrub days on DU, at Kos, at MWO, at Bartcop, and dozens of liberal blogs, those people?

No. They're still too far gone, and are just waiting to swoop back in to the control cab once Trump is out of the picture.

[Blue_true]

39. I do not appreciate them at all.

They were instrumental is creating the monster that them and US are now having to fight. During the 80s and 90s and 2000s, they could have taken the position that we all live in the country together and we all have interests, but they chose to try to have their side's point of view dominate, while they routinely questioned out patriotism. Now, we are where we are.