Police drag 65-year-old woman out of her car. Guess what race she is ...

[EffieBlack]

Link to tweet

If you want to get your blood pumping this morning, read the comments. Sound familiar?

[dalton99a]

1. That happens to 65-year-old white women all the time

[FBaggins]

3. Pretty close

If the police give you a ticket in Georgia and you refused to sign it, you have committed a crime. If the police tell you that you’ve committed a crime and that you need to get out of the car because you’re under arrest… And you refused to get out of the car… Yes, you’re going to end up getting dragged out of the car regardless of your age, gender, or color of your skin.

The part that was over the top, and absolutely could be caused by racist motivations, was the violence with which one of the police officers attempted to drag her out. But if three or four police officers are dragging on a 65-year-old woman and she’s winning… They’re not dragging very hard.

[EffieBlack]

20. Why were several police officers there in the first place?

I once heard a very high official in the Obama Administration, an African-American man, talk about being stopped by police when he was 16 and had just started driving.

He tried to remember everything his mother had told him to do in these situations, but he was so frightened he kept messing up. He said the blood was pounding so loudly in his ears that he had trouble hearing the cop and his hands were shaking so much, he was very slow at following his orders. He kept asking the cop to repeat himself, which the cop took as being uncooperative and a wiseass.

The cop got more and more agitated and started yelling at him, which, of course, made him even more nervous and shaky. The cop lost his temper and ordered him out of the car. He was so terrified at that point that he just froze. Then the cop pulled his gun and ordered him out again, telling him he had better be out in five seconds or there’d be hell to pay.

Just then, another police car pulled up and - thank God - one of men in that car was a community policing officer who was one of this kid’s basketball coaches. He saw the look of confusion and terror on the kid’s face, how red-faced the cop was and immediately what was going on. He calmly stepped between the angry cop and the car and de-escalated the situation on the spot.

My friend said that he still shudders when he thinks about that incident and how it could have turned out had his coach not shown up.

It also helps to demonstrate why the admonishments that people “should have just done what the police told them” and “he wasn’t following orders so she was committing a crime” are so misplaced and, frankly, tone-deaf. Such expectations might be fine for whites people for whom being beaten or shot by a police officer isn’t anywhere on their radar. But if you step into the skin of an African American and consider what this looks and feels like to them, it’s not so simple.

“Cooperation” for a 65-year old white woman probably looks very different than it does for her black counterpart. Refusing to get out of the car may, to a white woman, be defiance and a crime. To a black woman, it may be a survival instinct.

Please take into account the abject, visceral terror that flashing blue lights and a police officer barking orders can trigger in an African American before judging their non-violent reactions as a criminal act that deserves further abuse.

[zipplewrath]

31. Who were the professionals?

It was a question I used to ask the volunteers at the crisis hotline all the time. People would call up and be quite agitated about something. Yes, it wasn't the volunteers fault. Yes, the caller was rude. But the caller was the one "in crisis". The volunteer was trained to handle it. The person in crisis wasn't trained, and probably didn't understand how stuff workds. And it was "impersonal" to the volunteer. Calm the situation, don't escalate.

The vast majority of the police conflicts occur because the FIRST choice of the police seems to be to escalate. ASK why they don't want to sign the ticket. Don't debate, but one can "teach" at the moment. "No, ma'am, you're not admitting guilt, you're merely acknowledging receipt of the ticket. It's kinda like registered mail.".

(Although I agree with the poster that suggested we stop making this a crime. Heck, take a photo of the driver, or have the body cam showing you offering the written ticket to the driver. They wanna dispute it, let 'em.)

[EffieBlack]

41. Exactly!

People keep defending the police with such arguments as “They were provoked” or “ He was scares” or “He’s only human”

No.

They’re supposed to be trained so they DON’T allow themselves to be provoked. We train them and the nice them a gun and authority to use it so they’re NOT scared because they know they can use their weapon as a LAST resort, not the minute they feel a little trepidation. When we give them a badge and a gun, we take away their right to “just be human” because we know that regular human beings aren’t to be trusted walking around with guns and the power to use them at will.

[zipplewrath]

54. A problem the police won't address

There are people who should be police officers. The job scares them too much. They react badly. I'm not talking about those abusing their authority. I'm talking about people who are intimidated by the very job itself. It is overwhelming. They shouldn't be police officers. But the way they tend to get handled is that there is a probationary period when everyone makes excuses for them. At some point they may get moved into jobs that don't require alot of patrol type activities. Some, unfortunately, move on to smaller forces in rural areas.

The problem is, sooner or later, they get into the wrong situation. And then the trouble starts.

I was a skydiver for a long time. You know the risks, you manage the risks, you never want to forget or ignore the risks.
But there were people who badly wanted to be a skydiver, but were scared the whole time. The focused on risk ALOT. They were fearful of the risks. Often, the focused on those risks that scared them the most, instead of the ones that they were most exposed. Those people were a problem and there were those of us who would often subtlety try to talk them into quitting. It only worked sometimes. But in skydiving it is predominately themselves they put at risk. In police work, it is commonly someone else who is bearing the majority of the risk.

[FBaggins]

56. Except that doesn't appear to be the case here - until after Legg shows up

Watch the entire video - He appears to be acting correctly until she declares "I'm free to go" and tried to close the door a bit after the 13 minute mark. This isn't a terrified older woman doing her best to obey but just not doing it fast enough for the police officer. It's a woman who believes that she should be in charge and as soon as his supervisor shows up, (s)he will obviously agree.

I could buy that the period from about 13:20 - 14:10 looks more like escalation than de-escalation, but that period started with her trying to drive away. I'd like to think that there would be a way to back off and wait for the supervisor to arrive (ignoring the fact that I don't want to set a precedent that an officer can't arrest someone unless a supervisor approves it)... but there isn't a reason to believe that would have been better. She was going to drive of and drop off her friend and then talk some more once the supervisor showed up to set things right?

To me... things appear to go wrong at about 15:50. She agrees to get out of the car (I will get out for you... I won't get out for him) and things appear to start to get better... until the 3rd officer screams at her "you're not in charge... shut the F up and get out of the car!". Then she's standing up beside the car (possibly holding something for support) and this same officer grabs and yanks at her with way too much force. There's no question in my mind that that officer went way over the line

[Demsrule86]

65. She had reason to be afraid and requested a supervisor...and the swerve thing is often used for

driving while black. They are all scum period.

[FBaggins]

66. So the cop had ESP?

How on earth did he know what color she was before he pulled her over? Did you watch the video? It's nighttime and she had tinted windows. All you can tell from the video is that she almost caused an accident and then simultaneously tried to claim that she didn't leave her land AND that there wasn't a car there. He was definitely right to pull her over.

I don't see any reason for her to be afraid for several minutes after the stop. She was pretty much the party responsible for her own treatment up until the third cop showed up. The first one appears to act appropriately at least until the time that she declares that she's leaving and tried to close the door on him. The second one was unfailingly polite and actually convinces her to leave the vehicle (which she agrees to do for him but not for the 1st officer)... which should have ended it until Legg shows up and starts abusing her.

[EffieBlack]

67. "I don't see any reason for her to be afraid for several minutes after the stop."

I am a law-abiding, articulate, highly educated black woman. And I am absolutely terrified whenever I am stopped by the police because I don’t know whether he’s a sane law enforcement officer just doing his job or a crazy, racist cop who’s going to assume I’m a criminal and treat me accordingly - from being verbally disrespectful to assuming I’ve done some wrong and ordering me to do something that, as an attorney I know he has no right to make me do and that I have no obligation to do, to putting his hands on me and, if I balk, charge me with resisting arrest to shooting me then and there and claiming that I put him in fear of his life - all with a good chance of getting away with it thanks to a society comfortable with institutional racism filled with individuals who will always default to the police version of the story.

So, while YOU may not see it, those of us whose experience with the police has not always been, shall we say, positive, and others who are paying attention and sensitive to our reality, see it as plain as Day.

[FBaggins]

68. As I said... the entire video is available. Have you watched it?

You being terrified doesn't mean that you had a reason to be terrified. As I said, I've watched the video and I don't see it. He's not only polite, he's polite in the face of her abuse.

Don't tell me generics of what you "see" whenever you see this TYPE of event. Watch the video (post #56) and tell me when he starts doing something other than he should. He was never verbally abusive (Legg was)... and never appears to assume that's she's doing something wrong other than the things that she is, objectively, doing wrong. Tell me the things that you, as an attorney, know that he's not allowed to do. Can he not insist that you keep your window down when he can't see through it and you try to close it in his face? Can he not open the door when you refuse to open the window and tell you that you can either have the door or window open? When you declare that you're done and leaving (and try to close the door on him)... can he not tell you to get out of the car? When you refuse to get out of the car can he not arrest you?

For me... where it all goes wrong is when Legg shows up and... AFTER she starts cooperating... screams at her, grabs and yanks her, and shoves her around.

You say that you're never sure whether an officer will be a sane one or one of the abusive nuts. I say that both types are in this video and you should be able to tell them apart with the benefit of hindsight.

[Demsrule86]

71. Seriously, after all the killings, Black people have no reason to fear the police...I have very few

on ignore...but you made the cut. I watched the video and think all should be suspended.

[FBaggins]

73. Once again you insist on refering to OTHER events

I asked you to watch this one and tell me what the first two officers did wrong.

You claim that you watched it and that they should be suspended... ironically (but not surprisingly) lacking from your post is what was requested.

Not so surprising, given your "They are all scum period" post when referring to police officers in general. Telling really. Enough that I really don't see any reason to care whether you have me on ignore or not.

[Demsrule86]

69. He could have...I have to say. When I look at who is pulled over in my area, of the once I see...

most are Black...he certainly knew when he approached...

[FBaggins]

74. What if I said that I've hardly ever seen a person of color pulled over?

Of course... that would be wrong. It was my first real introduction to racism... but just imagine.

You would naturally point out that we often show our subconscious biases by what we see and don't see. Yet you here claim that most of the people pulled over in your area are black and don't seem to consider that this may say something about you?

Why not use actual statistics rather than your own biases perceptions? The gap in who is pulled over nationally is higher between men and women than it is between racial groups (and is nowhere near high enough to represent "most" stops unless the population in your area was already majority minority. You watch a video of what appears to be a perfectly normal traffic stop for the first several minutes and decide (without evidence) that the cop would have just let a white woman go with a warning but found out that she was black when he pulled her plates and decided to create what we ended up seeing?

What I can't figure out is how he was able to get her to refuse to sign a ticket. Jedi mind tricks?

[Demsrule86]

70. He ran her plates...race is on the license in most states.

[Crabby Appleton]

59. I remember a few years back

when this video was posted on DU of a white great grandmother getting tased during a traffic stop in Texas.

[FBaggins]

60. Wow... just... wow

Apparently starts off much the same way. She refused to sign a ticket. But when he tells her to get out of the car, she complies... and then even agrees to sign the ticket. Sure... she's verbally abusive, but he's 2-3 times her size and shoves her around like a rag doll and still feels that he needs his taser?

She deserved to be arrested... not assaulted.

[EffieBlack]

61. I've yet to see anyone claim that white people are never abused by the police, so this is irrelevant

Surely, sometimes white oeople are treated badly by the police. Duh. But unless they’re delusional, no one could ever claim that blacks aren’t overwhelmingly disproportionally targeted for this treatment.

And the age-old tactic of pointing to the rare instances of cop-on-white abuse as if it somehow contradicts the flood of proof of a pattern of blacks being subjected to disparate treatment is nothing more than an attempt to gaslight the people of all races who know exactly what’s going on.

[Bok_Tukalo]

76. That is not logically consistent.

You are admitting (rather grudgingly and with not a little hyperbole) that "cop-on-white abuse" occurs yet cannot accept the fact that that cop-on-black abuse (to mirror your phrase) can be for any other reason than race; or at least sneer at those who suggest it may not be about race, intimating they are "delusional" or "gaslight[ing]."

[EffieBlack]

77. Oh good. Lord

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[Bok_Tukalo]

78. Add "ridiculous" to "delusional" and "gaslight[ing]," I suppose

Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

<OPE>

[EffieBlack]

80. Yep.

All of those.

[Bok_Tukalo]

82. Whatever gets you through the day

<POE>

[tblue37]

2. She was probably as terrified of them as she would have been of any three armed attackers.

As a black woman, she would have reason to fear they would beat her or worse, since we have all seen videos in which cops do such things to black people, regardless of the age or gender of their target.

[marble falls]

4. If I were black and stopped at night by cops, I would not get out of the car.

[Afromania]

13. and then they shoot you, or drag you out and manhandle you.

The "I was afraid for my life" defense for everything doesn't work for black folk ever. Even when we actually are in fear for our lives and the "defense" is to just huddle in place in statue like silence.

[EffieBlack]

21. Only white people are allowed to be scared.

[marble falls]

36. If I have a choice of whether I am shot in my car with both hands in a death grip on the wheel....

on camera or on the shoulder shot like a dog with no no camera on me, I'll stay in the car.

I'll never face that situation because of my white male privilege. I am outraged that anyone else has to make that sort of decision. That the parents of black male children have to have "the talk" about the strategy of being being stopped while being black by the police. That wearing a hoodie is a probable cause to be stopped. That there are neighborhoods where being black is an invitation to interact with the local constabulary. And maybe get shot over it.

I'm not suggesting that my thoughts on this are anywhere near as informed as your life experience. We both agree that this policing situation is intolerable. At least we have somewhere to start together from.

[IluvPitties]

28. They have stopped me at night, and I have complied.

Whatever they have asked me, I have done. I don't trust them and wanna go back home alive.

[marble falls]

40. Agreed, do whatever you need to do to stay alive. Even if its grab onto the wheel with both hands...

in a death grip and stay in the car.

[EffieBlack]

42. And yet, as we've often seen, that's not a guarantee that you'll come out alive if you're black

[marble falls]

47. Its a Hobson's choice. You may well lose your life either way.

[Bettie]

5. WTF is wrong with these guys?

She's an older lady and she didn't want to sign the ticket, so they drag her out of her car?

Seems extremely out of proportion for the "offense".

Maybe if ONE guy had talked to her and simply explained that she needed to sign the thing and could still contest the charge (do they really ever ticket for drifting out of a lane?) then the whole situation might have been avoided.

[marble falls]

6. They use charges like drifting and cracked lenses as "probable cause" to look for stronger charges.

[Bettie]

14. So, just an excuse to stop someone

and act like a racist dickhead. Fer crying out loud, we really need to get a better handle of policing in this country.

[marble falls]

16. In Arizona they actually use staying in the same lane too long as suspicious and probable....

cause to stop cars. Driving too safe and following the law is suspicious when performed by PoC.

[Blue_true]

33. It boils down to police department administration.

If a police department selects cadets well (no racists or violent types) and insure that they are trained and keep their training updated, you see less of this. I was at a
meeting in a public place recently and witnessed a cop confront a mentally ill homeless black man. The man was screaming at the cop and moving around and making wild hand gestures near his garbage bags, but the cop maintained a distance away from him and never went for his gun eventhough the guy was demanding that the cop shoot him. The standoff ended with the cop tazing the guy to take him down, then quickly handcuffing him. The situation could have ended much worse had a gung-ho, gunslinging cop showed up, or the department does a good job of selecting and training it's cops so that they make the right choices in the situation that me and the people who I was meeting with witnessed.

[marble falls]

44. Two examples, my town cops and the Chicago cops....

No body got shot or dog piled in Marble Falls.

[maxrandb]

19. And that stronger charge is

Refusing to sign a ticket??????

Holy Fuck!!!!!!

[marble falls]

23. It can become resisting arrest, assaulting an officer or just looking into car and finding...

an open container, or a weapon or contraband.

The fact is 70% of drug arrests start with a simple traffic stop. Cops stop 100's to catch just one. The big tell is that mostly PoC get stopped.

[EffieBlack]

25. Anything can become "resisting arrest" under the right circumstances

Especially if the cops think no one is watching

[marble falls]

29. Thats the worst of it. Anything is anything a cop wants it to be: cell phones and bad shaddows...

become guns. Panic shootings become justifiable.

We need to change the way cops are trained to shoot, and most importantly change the law so that while fear might be a mitigating factor in a bad shooting, it most definitely is not a positive defense.

[EffieBlack]

32. Definitely!

And if a cop is so afraid of the public, he or she has to shoot people who turn outbpose them no harm, they need to find another line of work.

[marble falls]

46. We need to weed super alphas out. As well as the panic prone.

[Blue_true]

34. Often, with some cops, stopping a black person is the first step toward looking for more serious

stuff. There is a reason for the term "doing anything while black". Even a black person in the "wrong" neighborhood causes suspicion, even if the black person lives in the most expensive house in the neighborhood and it's 100% paid for.

[Solomon]

37. When and why the hell (I think I know why)

did it become a crime for a person to refuse to sign a traffic ticket?! It was a right not to sign when I was growing up. The cop has to go to court anyway to make the charges stick. His testimony will show service of the ticket. Its ridiculous. Another made up crime to fuck over people.

[maxrandb]

18. How about changing the law

that refusing to sign the ticket is a crime?

WTF is that??

I mean, WTF?

"Here's your ticket"

"I'm not signing that"

"Ok, but it's still a ticket...here's your options...pay the fine by mail, or appear in court...the dates on the ticket...have a nice day"

and then file a report, "Issued ticket, citizen refused to sign, gave it to her anyway...now starting to look for real criminals"

I mean WTF??? Refusing to sign something leads to ARREST????!!!!!

What the fuck have we become?????!!!!!!!

[BlueJac]

24. I agree

[Bettie]

26. Yeah, it should be changed

and at very least, they should be able to write "Issued ticket, citizen chose not to sign" until the law is changed.

I'm betting that white dudes who refuse to sign don't get dragged out of their cars.

[CanSocDem]

7. Guess what country you're in....n/t

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

8. Georgia? Good thing she wasn't black and Canadian.

[FBaggins]

10. Says the guy who joined today?

This is your first post?

Likely your last

[Maeve]

11. It was--first and last

For that personna, anyway. Trolls have a habit of returning...

[marble falls]

15. This one's been banned two or three time today alone. At least two times yesterday....

and hundreds of times since I joined. Sometimes she gets up to three posts before she gets caught. She even gets caught before she posts because she uses variations of the same ten or so words as her handle.

You may well be the next person she posts at when she signs back on using an IP address masking program.

[FBaggins]

17. Yay for MIRT! Is there a better way to call them in?

I alerted on the post and couldn’t figure out which selection was likely to get them involved. A jury hide wasn’t what I was looking for.

Obviously they appeared quickly. Maybe just assume that they’re in the job and ignore the troll?

[marble falls]

22. If something needs alerting, alert it every single time. Don't ignore the troll but don't escalate..

the incivility. That's exactly what they want. In a month or so there will be another term of MIRT, look in the 'announcement' section and volunteer. I recommend a term for any serious DUer. Also if you look there you'll find a list of the current MIRT. If you feel MIRT needs to know something, PM one of those members.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10138892

[FBaggins]

57. Sure... but there doesn't apear to be an alert type that means "MIRT needed"

I think I settled on "No kooky... etc." - figuring that it was at least "kooky" - but then a jury will be asked to evaluate the kookiness and they aren't presented with "this poster registered a few minutes ago and this is his/her first post"

Or maybe ANY alert in the first few minutes/posts of a new user's time triggers a MIRT peek?

Oh well... whatever the system is obviously worked in this case.

[marble falls]

75. Join MIRT. Use the link I posted to find a member of MIRT. You should be able to find...

a member you're familiar with. PM your concerns. MIRT gets PMs from members like you almost daily and it looks into things it or a jury missed. Sometimes the description on the alert window aren't specific to what you want to alert about. Consult with a MIRTer you trust from the list.

DU works pretty darn well and participation in keeping this place civil is important.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. Fuck the police.

[Lil Missy]

27. She was not "dragged" out of her car.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

38. What verb would you use, Lil Missy?

[Solomon]

39. Wtf!?

Are you delusional or just forgot the sarcasm thingy?

[Demsrule86]

49. She certainly was...and Can I just say it makes me throw up in my mouth to see people

defending a cop who cursed an older lady( Black of course) and dragged her out of her car...hope he is fired...he is suspended you know.

My white mother...the speed demon...has snapped at cops to "shut the hell up, give me the damn ticket...I don't need a lecture'. And the cops usually kind of chuckle at this sweet old 'white' lady...sometimes they just tell her to slow down and don't even giver her a ticket which she always deserves.

The fact is it is people of color who get treated this way most of the time..and I would never defend such actions.

[marble falls]

53. You must be looking at the wrong video.

[gollygee]

62. I don't understand how you watched the video and that was your immediate response?

I was horrified that she was being manhandled like that. But you chose to nitpick about what specific kind of manhandling she was subjected to.

[Demsrule86]

30. Disgusting...they have suspended the cop at least.

"The video showed the situation escalate when Rose Campbell, a diabetic grandmother, refused to get out of her car.

"I didn't expect that in America," Campbell told WSB. "I didn't expect that in Atlanta. I didn't expect that especially in Alpharetta."
The video showed the situation escalate when Rose Campbell, a diabetic grandmother, refused to get out of her car.

"I didn't expect that in America," Campbell told WSB. "I didn't expect that in Atlanta. I didn't expect that especially in Alpharetta."

Officers yelled at her and forcibly took her into custody.

"You’re not in charge. Shut the f*** up and get out of the car," Officer James Legg says in the video to Campbell.

Legg, one of the officers who arrived after a call for backup, was suspended by the police department and an investigation was opened.

Alpharetta police said the officer used language and tactics that were "inappropriate, even inflammatory."

Video shows Legg then grab the woman's arm and shoulder, and she starts to scream.

Other officers also assist in apprehending Campbell."


http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/38167861/graphic-police-officer-suspended-for-rough-treatment-of-65-year-old-woman
Officers yelled at her and forcibly took her into custody."

[EffieBlack]

43. And people will STILL defend it

As in the Starbucks case - when after Starbucks admitted the manager was wrong and fired her, after the city refused to prosecute, dropped charges and paid out cash money, people here and elsewhere STILL defended the manager and police.

[Demsrule86]

48. I don't understand that...it was a horrible performance and he cursed at her also...what a pig!

[FBaggins]

58. They didn't suspend the officer who pulled her over

It's the 3rd/4th guy at the scene who pops in with almost no context (and after she had already stopped resisting and exited the vehicle) and starts screaming abusively at her and then grabs her a couple times and violently throws her around.

The first officer (IMO) acted pretty well and the second one was unfailingly polite and respectful.

It's officer "Legg" (?) who is the reason we've seen this video. I have no idea what he was thinking.

[Demsrule86]

63. I don't think it matters...he was the worst but I think they all should be suspended...as they stood

by and allowed this to happen.

[heaven05]

35. very frustrating

and sad, this peculiar racial hate in America .

[Johnny2X2X]

45. This could be your mother or grandmother.

If thee police had done this to my mother for no reason, it would take everything in me not to track each officer down and end them. 65 year old people are fragile, an arm twist can permanently injure them. The humiliation and disrespect makes my blood boil.

Know this, this has been going on for a long long time, we are just now seeing it filmed because cameras are everywhere.

[Phoenix61]

50. She requested a supervisor be called to the scene

All the officer had to do was call for a supervisor, get an ETA, tell the woman how long they would have to wait then chill the heck out. I can't help but wonder what he was in such a hurry to get to.

[LuckyCharms]

51. They dragged her out of her car for refusing to sign?

Seems to me like they should weigh the risk of not signing the ticket vs. the risk of possibly injuring or causing a medical emergency with a 65 year old woman.

A rational person would weigh that risk, decide that there is no benefit to be gained by putting their hands on the woman, and let her go.

The ticket can still be processed without signature, and if she does not show up for court or otherwise ignores it, then further punitive legal action can be taken.

Her infraction was minor. There was no reason to touch her.

Obviously, things are more than out of control with our current policing.

[Submariner]

52. White trash Pigs

[Judi Lynn]

55. It's infuriating just to read any pro-racist posts here, EffieBlack. You are kind, patient,

and patient, in your manner of responding to them.

Knowing how these people attempt to overwhelm and destroy, any way possible, the right, moral response to life, and how wearing and exhausting it is upon anyone who takes them seriously, as if they were honest people, I have to thank you for what you have done, already.

Some of us start wearing out, in disgust, or temporary exhaustion for periods. We are the ones who read and are amazed when the truth does get aired, through the bullying and the hatred and deliberate obstructionism by those who come to conversations hoping to destroy them.

Thank you.

[Demsrule86]

64. Absolutely true...and look at this new OP...unbelievable.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210603375

[sheshe2]

79. +1000

[ismnotwasm]

72. K&R

[sheshe2]

81. You are right about the comments, Effie.

They sound very familiar.