Add "Being Naked While Black" to the list: "Being Naked Doesn't Remove the Threat"

[EffieBlack]

The naked man shot by police after he shut down traffic on Interstate 95 in Richmond Monday has died, according to Richmond Police. He was identified by police as Marcus-David L. Peters, 24, of the 6700 block of Dartmouth Avenu

Shortly after 5:30 p.m., Peters was observed driving a sedan that struck another vehicle at the intersection of W. Franklin and N. Belvidere Streets. Peters fled the scene in his vehicle, according to police. An RPD officer pursued Peters northbound and onto the I-95 on-ramp.

Police said that Peters lost control of his vehicle after he struck two other vehicles on the on-ramp. Peters emerged from his disabled vehicle and ran into the northbound lanes of I-95. He was not wearing any clothes.

Peters then ran back towards the on-ramp and charged the RPD officer, who deployed his Taser in an effort to disable Peters. It proved ineffective, so the officer fired his service weapon, striking Peters, who was unarmed. Peters was transported to a local medical center where he died shortly after midnight.

"We are all deeply affected by what happened here – by the loss of life," Richmond Police Chief Alfred Durham said in a statement released by Richmond Police. "Our officers do not take the use of deadly force lightly. I think it’s important to remember that being naked does not remove a threat.
http://wtvr.com/2018/05/15/naked-man-killed-i95/

[kwassa]

1. So much for strip searches. They clearly don't work.

The man was armed with dangerous nudity.

[EffieBlack]

3. The man was likely mentally ill and posed no threat-especially to a trained law enforcement officer

Damned shame.

[oberliner]

5. Mentally ill?

Where did you read that?

[EffieBlack]

6. Yes, mentally ill

The Richmond Police Department has identified Marcus- David L. Peters, 24, of the 6700 block of Dartmouth Avenue in Henrico County, as the man who they said charged one of its officers after hitting three cars, leading police on a short pursuit, and dancing and rolling naked on the interstate.

“That was not my son,” said Barbara Peters, his mother. “This is just so out of character. Something went terribly wrong.”
http://www.richmond.com/news/local/crime/young-henrico-man-fatally-shot-by-richmond-police-was-high/article_bea3ab5b-a64b-5704-901a-57c5afea7e2b.html

He does not strike me as being of sound mind, but I could be wrong - hence, my choice of the word “likely.”

[oberliner]

7. His mother does not indicate that her son was mentally ill

In fact, quite the opposite.

[EffieBlack]

8. Whatever

[oberliner]

104. Your thoughtful responses are always appreciated

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. He was not behaving in a sane manner.

He was reported to have "charged (an officer) after hitting three cars, leading police on a short pursuit, and dancing and rolling naked on the interstate." That is obviously not normal behavior. Unless a whole lot of drugs were involved (not likely, in light of his background, and not mentioned as a factor so far), it's likely he had an acute manic episode. I know someone who had a manic breakdown almost exactly like that, except that he remained clothed and didn't get shot (he was white). He was taken to a hospital and diagnosed with bipolar disorder; his family never had the slightest clue that there was anything wrong before this. He had always seemed normal before this episode, had a college degree, held down a responsible job, but suddenly took off in his car, collided with several other cars and was running around on the freeway when the cops took him in. I absolutely believe the young man in the incident in the OP had a similar mental breakdown and should have been handled appropriately. And how on earth can they justify shooting a naked guy?

[oberliner]

103. That does not mean he was mentally ill

There have been many people who knew him who have spoken about him in the press and no one indicated anything about him having a mental illness. In fact, quite the opposite.

[ck4829]

44. Come on, mentally ill? That's only for white mass shooters. Geeze.

... from me, at least.

[gollygee]

87. Really

A white man shoots up a bunch of people and that's the first thing everyone says. A black man - naked - attacks a cop with his bare hands and all of a sudden it's ridiculous to suggest he might have some mental health problems.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. Ahh doesn't matter

He was armed with a lethal weapon (hang nail or something like that so he get shot.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. WTF? How can being naked not remove a threat?

Where are you going to conceal your weapon? And if it you've put it there, how are you going to get it out without some... difficulty?

[EffieBlack]

4. George Zimmerman's lawyer claimed Trayvon's weapon was the sidewalk

It it looked like pavement was all around, so this naked guy was clearly a threat.

[uppityperson]

82. Ever watch Captain Jack Harkness in Dr Who with Anndroid?

[EffieBlack]

9. Kick

[Alea]

11. What would you have done?

When the taser didn't stop him the cop should have just had a wrestling fight on the road where he could win or lose but it would be fair? In this fair fight if the cop wins, the bad guy gets cuffed and put in the police car. If the bad guy wins, the cop gets severely beaten, his gun taken and possibly murdered with it, then bad guy goes on to kill more people with the cops gun. Do you really think the bad guy is going to be fair with the cop if he gets the advantage, or the cops gun? If your mother, father, sister, brother, or husband/wife was a cop this would be ok with you?

Unarmed people kill other people all the time. Being unarmed doesn't mean no threat. An unarmed bad guy fighting with a cop can quickly become and armed bad guy.

I don't see what other choice the cop had. He didn't shoot him while he was driving and crashing into 3 cars. He didn't shoot him when he got out and ran. He didn't shoot him when he charged him, he tried to taze him. If he tazed him they were close. So at that point what would you do? Even if you disagree with everything I said, the question still stands. What would you have done?

[EffieBlack]

12. I certainly hope you aren't in law enforcement

or, for that matter in any position where you have to make quick life or death decisions given your belief that shooting a naked man dead is the only alternative a trained police officer had to subduing him if tasing doesn’t work.

Wow.

[X_Digger]

13. I notice you didn't answer the poster's question, did you?

I wonder why that is.

[EffieBlack]

14. Because it was a stupid question that didn't merit a response.

But thanks for your concern and for weighing in.

[X_Digger]

15. No, it's a perfectly valid question, you just choose to ignore it because it's uncomfortable.

It contradicts the narrative you wish to favor.

Telling, that.

[LanternWaste]

16. Or maybe it really is a leading question, designed with its own inherent narrative.

Or maybe it really is a leading question, designed with its own inherent narrative and any reponse to it would simply lend credibility to that narrative.

But I get it... a lot of dogmatic individuals think the only possible solution was to either shoot the guy or watch him harm others. The mental convenience of presenting the False Dichotomy is indeed, convenient... but even its convenience does not deny it as a logical fallacy.

Good luck with your own favored narrative, though!

[X_Digger]

18. Aww look, a defender pops up.

Aww look, a defender pops up.

Care to take a crack at the question? Having tased the guy when he's charging at you, which has no effect, and he continues to charge you, what do you do? Take a beating? Possibly allow your weapon into his hands?

Do tell, brave poster, do tell.

[NCTraveler]

21. This is a discussion board. People join conversations.

You really just promoted another reason not to play the game with the question. Responses aren't always in the best interest of debate.

[X_Digger]

24. Especially responses to uncomfortable questions, no doubt. n/t

[NCTraveler]

27. Things can be deemed uncomfortable for numerous reasons.

Attempts at deceptive debating tactics can also be employed.

Discussion boards are fun like that. I personally like it when one feels the need to personally attack another for simply joining the conversation on a discussion board.

[EffieBlack]

40. Especially when they popped into the thread to attack someone for not answering someone else's

question.

Funny how certain topics - or A certain topic - brings these folks out of the woodwork, isn’t it?

[JustAnotherGen]

30. I'm going to say yes to both of your suggestions

James Shaw Jr wasn't an actual police officer, didn't have a gun, and he stopped a crazy guy with a gun (ALSO like HALF nekkid! ) from killing everyone at a Waffle House.

Look it up - it was just last month I think.

NO gun, not a cop, and the guy was naked AND had a gun.

[X_Digger]

38. So you'd take a beating, potentially letting a disturbed individual get your gun? Okay..

Because we know that all situations can be generalized from one example, right?

Glad you're not a cop.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. I wish James Shaw Jr. Was

He went up against a naked guy with an AR - 15. It wasn't even his job.

I think you and me both would be awful cops -

But he would be an excellent one.

Wouldn't you agree?

I mean - he's not a wuss and a scaredy cat.

I wonder if that cop pissed his pants?

[uppityperson]

84. There's that false dichotomy again. There are more possibilities than shoot or take a beating while

losing your gun.

[EffieBlack]

86. If a cop is so poorly trained (or just stupid) that he can't engage in the first levels of subduing

an agitated but unarmed suspect, e.g., joint lock or takedown, because he's afraid he'll get beaten up or have his gun taken and used on him, that he must immediately resort to using lethal force and shooting to kill, he doesn't need to be anywhere near this job. If he absolutely must be involved in law enforcement, maybe they can find him a nice, non-stressful desk job back somewhere in headquarters.

[uppityperson]

89. ++++++++

[gollygee]

88. Are police batons not a thing anymore?

They used to have weapons to subdue unarmed people without killing them.

[George II]

52. Good thing there wasn't a cop on the scene, from recent events the officer probably would....

....have ignored the shooter (white) and arrested Shaw (black).

[JustAnotherGen]

55. Um - that's a really good point EXCEPT

He would have SHOT and KILLED Shaw because don't you know?

More hands and feet killed last year than . . .

[EffieBlack]

67. An unarmed black man who can take down an armed white man is threat

[EffieBlack]

39. Says a person who jumped in the thread to demand to know why I didn't answer someone else's question

Aren’t you precious?

[JustAnotherGen]

45. They always demand shit from you Effie

I think in a F2F meeting most of them would look down and away because they aren't your 'caliber'. I know I would.

[EffieBlack]

48. Yep - as to them. You are awesome ...

But I’m their worst nightmare - a black woman with a brain.

[Alea]

23. LOL

It was just a question. If there's a narrative, it's that maybe the cop had no choice. If answering the Q lends credibility to that narrative then what's wrong with that.

It's easy to say the cop didn't have to shoot the unarmed naked guy, but no one wants to say what the cop should have done once the taser didn't stop him.

[EffieBlack]

46. I answered your question. Care to respond? Or do you and your wingman just want to keep playing dumb

[Alea]

57. Actually, you didn't answer

You copied and pasted some stuff off the internet that for the most part, aren't applicable to this shooting. In your link was this however: "Our next step up would be intermediate controls, impact weapons, batons, using chemical sprays or even Tasers. The final level of response would be a deadly force response."

The cop was at point of using his taser - By you own link the next level of response would be a deadly force response.

[EffieBlack]

65. You obviously can read, but seem to be having trouble with comprehension

“We have what's called a subject-control continuum here in Michigan. For instance, talking to somebody or showing up in uniform is considered officer presence or verbal traction. That's the lowest level of force that a police officer will use.

The next step up is simply using techniques like joint locks or pressure points, or things like that. The next step that they would use if those were ineffective would be physical controls like strikes or takedowns, things like that.

Our next step up would be intermediate controls, impact weapons, batons, using chemical sprays or even Tasers. The final level of response would be a deadly force response.”

This officer went straight to intermediate controls and then escalated promptly to deadly force. Under your idea of policing - aka the “Barney Fife Method” - the first two levels are inoperable because, if the cop gets close enough to the suspect to do any of these things, he could get beaten up or shot with his own gun.

But you obviously aren’t interested in knowing “what else could the cop have done.” You just want to argue and disrupt and defend the killing of an unarmed black man. Gotcha.

So, run along now and take your little red wagon with you ...

[Alea]

70. So, problem solved, problem staying solved

[uppityperson]

85. Thank you, good summary

[EffieBlack]

99. You're welcome

[JustAnotherGen]

32. I tried to give this example Lantern

Psst - the assailant was naked from the waist down I think.

http://time.com/5250602/james-shaw-jr-waffle-house-shooting-nashville/

The Man Who Stopped the Waffle House Gunman Was Shot at and Burned. He Still Says He's Not a Hero

But police are hailing James Shaw Jr. as a hero who saved lives when he wrestled an AR-15 rifle rifle away from the shooter, who killed four people when he opened fire inside the restaurant in Antioch, Tennessee. A manhunt was still underway Monday afternoon for shooting suspect Travis Reinking.

Shaw Jr., a 29-year-old Nashville native, is a technician for AT&T and a father to a 4-year-old daughter. He attended Tennessee State University and Brightwood College. At a press conference on Sunday, he described himself as a “pretty cool guy to be around,” while pushing back against being labeled a hero.

He said he just ‘reacted’ – but it’s crazy that a phone technician is braver than a police officer – you know?

[JustAnotherGen]

29. I gave them an answer

To tamp down the EBDS shit you deal with.

Anyway Hemingway - asses are being shown.

[EffieBlack]

71. Indeed

[Eliot Rosewater]

76. See how conditioned we are, that if police cant subdue you

for any reason they should be able to shoot and kill you.

The killing of runaway black slaves and police forces, I wonder if these people know the connection?

Meh, why bother at this point.

[EffieBlack]

78. Yep

And they don't need to even try because if they DO try to subdue you non-violently, it is POSSIBLE that they might get beaten up or shot with their own gun by the suspect, which means they are already in imminent danger, so they have no choice but to just shoot him now.

[Alea]

17. OK, maybe I won't go into law enforcement but...

My question was what would you do in the same situation. The next step is a hands on fight where losing means the bad guy gets your gun. What do you think the cop should have done once the taser failed?

Don't hate on me for asking. The best out come would be no shooting but I just don't see how it was avoidable here. Shooting a naked man of any color, armed or not, chasing, or attacking you is probably considered justified in all 50 states.

[NCTraveler]

22. I made a point downthread before I had read this.

This is why I think a large portion of law enforcement shouldn't have guns on their persons.

It would go a long way in many situations.

[EffieBlack]

31. This is police training 101

Among other things, police are trained to know when someone is in some kind of distress - as evidenced by such behavior as running in and out of traffic with no clothes on. They are also trained to block traffic and to quickly seal off a perimeter to ensure that an excited person runnng around doesn’t run into traffic and harm themselves or cause an accident.

And, perhaps, most important, they are trained to apply tactics along a “force continuum” - and, as part of that, they are trained to physically subdue an put-of-control person with their hands and bodies, using only as much physical force as necessary to immobilize and contain them. And they are trained not to get “beaten up” in the process and not to allow people to grab their guns during such a takedown.

Police are trained to use lethal force ONLY when a person poses a threat of imminent death or serious injury to them or others. “Imminent danger” does not mean that, it’s possible that, if the officers attempt to physically take down the person, they might try to grab their gun out of its holster and shoot them. Under that argument, a police officer would be justified shooting and killing any unarmed person at any time.

And no, shooting a naked man who poses no immediate threat of harm to them is NOT likely to be considered justified in ANY state. Absent extenuating circumstances, there is no reason to assume this naked man posed any threat of serious harm to a well-trained police officer.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7626840

[atreides1]

49. Here are some tactics that the officer could have used

1. Holster weapon as the man comes towards him
2. Utilize expandable baton...most are usually made of a metal alloy.
2a. Hit his hands/arms, then go for his legs/kneecaps/shins
3. Step on his bare foot, the instep is a good target.
4. A knee to the groin.
5. Maybe a few good solid punches to the chest, just above the sternum or to the face.

Of course this only theoretical! The the height, weight, and build of the suspect...the strength of the officer...all play a part as well!

[Alea]

63. This is a good reply

and thank you for not being condescending. I agree with everything you said, just not sure how much of that could be done here. I'm thinking the time between the taser not stopping the guy and his continuing his charge was almost all one movement. It seems like the time to subdue him was when he was rolling around the interstate. I believe there were other cops there or just arriving on scene that maybe could have acted faster. I think once the guy turned and charged the officer, everything happened really fast.

[Eliot Rosewater]

77. You agree with everything the person posted there? Not from where I stand, you dont.

[hunter]

59. In my personal experience if you don't have a gun you've got nothing to worry about.

See my Japan post below. And that crazy naked white guy was armed with a most terrifying stick!

Most cops in the U.S.A. don't have the temperament to use guns wisely. No, I do not respect those trigger happy fools.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Taze him again

Trip him, punch him in the face, taken his billy club to his knee. Shit like that - bad ass shit.



Then. . . . should have taken him to burger king for a sandwich before going to the police station.

[EffieBlack]

33. Only white people who massacre lots of people get the Burger King treatment ...

[JustAnotherGen]

35. Only black citizens in Waffle Houses

Have the balls to confront half naked men with guns!

It's so clear to me that with the exception of one being a police officer and one being a phone tech -

And one assailant having an AR-15 and the other having his hands and feet -

It's like - so easy to see that the police officer is too weak and too much of scaredy cat to do their job without a gun.

Like - does that cop get down and check under the bed with his gun drawn when he has a nightmare to make sure the monster isn't under his bed?

[EffieBlack]

36. But black men are scary

And naked black men are really scary

[JustAnotherGen]

37. I want to say/write something

But it's naughty so I won't.

[GaryCnf]

69. Are you saying

That law enforcement lacks the training and equipment to stop a non compliant suspect without the use of deadly force?

That is incorrect and putting it on someone without the same resources to propose an alternative course of action is just disingenuous.

[cwydro]

72. Fair question.

[GeorgeGist]

107. Shot him in the knee.

Is that so hard for Americans to understand?

[hunter]

19. Here's how the police in Japan handle this...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. A naked guy with a stick and they still didn't shoot him!

[Eliot Rosewater]

79. What we KNOW is if that was a black man in America he would be dead now.

Let that sink in for a minute.

[NCTraveler]

20. I think it is a fair statement.

It doesn't remove the threat.

That said, at this point I would think there should have been a number of police around. As bad as it would look on camera there is the opportunity for numerous officers to take him down and immobilize him. It is one of the reasons I feel a lot of officers should not have firearms on their person. You cannot do what I see as properly deal with someone in this situation if you have a gun on your hip. It literally takes less lethal options off the table.

[EX500rider]

25. I am not commenting on this story in particular....but:

Hands and feet kill twice as many people per year in the US then ALL rifles do, including AR-15's:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

[JustAnotherGen]

34. Shit - James Shaw jr

Should have killed the s.o.b. that shot and killed four people (half naked with an AR-15) in a waffle house last month.

I think the obvious comparison is that - but Mr. Shaw was/is a phone technician.


It's crazy to me that a phone tech is braver and ballsier than a police officer with a gun.

[kwassa]

42. Useless statistic. Which is more lethal, naked man or AR-15?

[JustAnotherGen]

47. Yeah - there's that kwassa

But it's the 'circular firing squad'. I think it's funny a guy with an AR=-15 got his ass whooped by a guy just FEARING FOR HIS LIFE.

[EX500rider]

51. According to FBI statistics the naked man by 2x.

[EffieBlack]

56. No

You are misstating the statistic. More people are killed by naked men because more people are confronted by naked men. But if you adjusted the statistic to account for occurrences, the numbers would be very different.

The appropriate way to look at this would be to find a statistic that tells you the rate of cop deaths per confrontations with naked men vs. the rate of cop deaths per confrontations with AR-15-armed persons.

Or let’s put it this way: if police were called to a scene where an unarmed naked man was standing on one side of the road and a man armed with an AR-15 pointed at them was standing on the other side of the road, and they had only one sharpshooter as backup, which one should the sniper take out first?

[EX500rider]

60. My whole point is that unarmed people kill twice as many people as ALL rifles..

...so just being unarmed does not mean there us no danger for the police or anyone.

[EffieBlack]

62. How many armed, trained POLICE OFFICERS are killed by unarmed people vs. armed people

Your statistic is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the use of lethal force by police officers.

[kwassa]

91. 11,004 died from guns, 656 beaten to death. Your link.

I think we have a gun problem.

[EX500rider]

92. I only mentioned rifles. I know pistols are the major killer..

....well not as much as ladders or Draino but still a serious problem.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/accidental-injury.htm

Unintentional fall deaths
Number of deaths: 33,381
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.4

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 37,757
Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.7

Unintentional poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 47,478
Deaths per 100,000 population: 14.8

[kwassa]

93. Guns used in their normal manner kill people. That is their purpose.

Not the purpose of cars. They have another function.

[EX500rider]

94. So something that is not designed to kill people kills more people then something that is..

....is that somehow better?

[kwassa]

95. It is.

The one designed to kill people can be eliminated and no social purpose is affected.

[EX500rider]

96. Good luck with that.

"eliminated" like in Mexico or Jamaica or Brazil?
All who pretty much outlaw firearms and all who have a MUCH higher homicide rate with them.

[kwassa]

97. here we go into the gungeon ....

same false shit, different day.

[EX500rider]

98. What did i post that was false?

Are you saying those countries don't have strict gun control AND higher homicide rates?

[kwassa]

100. Your understanding of lethality is false.

And your connection of high homicide rates to gun control laws is also false.

Anything else?

[EX500rider]

101. Actually homicide rates and gun control laws and gun ownership rates are not very connected.

If they were the 3 countries I mentioned would have low homicide rates and the US would have the highest in the world instead of being 94th in the world rankings.

[kwassa]

102. There is nothing about gun control laws in your chart.

Stating the obvious.

[EX500rider]

105. Because I already mentioned them.

I said Brazil & Jamaica & Mexico all have stringent gun control and 3 to 8 times the US homicide rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[EX500rider]

106. Well if you say so, with all those facts who could argue? lol

[ck4829]

54. LOL, it really is

I mean, poison and explosives kill less people than fists and feet or rifles, so I don't know why nobody wants me to walk around with my cyanide soaked grenade belt... makes no sense.

[hunter]

61. Gun fetishes are disgusting.

[EX500rider]

73. So FBI statistics gun fetish to you? lol

[hunter]

74. I don't let anyone I'd care to shoot live in my head.

[gollygee]

64. I bet more people were killed by toddlers last year than nuclear weapons

That must mean toddlers are more dangerous than nuclear weapons.

[EffieBlack]

68. That also means that, when confronted with a toddler, police should just shoot them

because, you know, statistics?

[hunter]

80. I've been hit, kicked, and bit by toddlers...

... and a few adults too.

Do not downplay the danger!

.


.


.

[EffieBlack]

81. And don't even TALK about the germs they bring home from daycare

I have almost been killed by whatever it is they breathed and snotted on me.

They are truly a menace to society.

God made them so cute because otherwise we would have gotten rid of them a long time ago.

[ck4829]

50. K&R

[John Fante]

58. What would have removed the threat?

White body paint?

[malaise]

75. They sure love to kill

[tazkcmo]

83. I don't know what caused the victim's behavior

It sounds a lot like PCP but that's irrelevant. The man was naked and unarmed. The cop is a racist wuss if he felt that a naked black man could actually kill him. When all you have is a hammer everything is a nail.

[Blue_Tires]

90. Schoolteacher and VCU honors graduate:

https://www.theroot.com/unarmed-black-teacher-a-recent-vcu-honors-grad-shot-a-1826058761