Troll tactics: keep a divisive issue in the headlines, play both sides of an issue (cf. to 'wypipo')

[sharedvalues]

Let me say first: I am NOT calling anyone a troll, just asking everyone here to consider what kind of trolling tactics are effective (because they are damaging to discussion and community.)

Discussing an issue, even a divisive one, is useful. But repeatedly re-discussing an especially divisive issue can hurt the community.

Let's try to be as positive as possible. We should work to come together on as many issues as we can.


------------------

We know what effective troll tactics are: work in teams, work BOTH sides of a divisive issue (like wypipo).

Paid troll tactics (as reported by Russian trolls, see Guardian article below):
Main goal is to find a divisive issue and keep it in the posts/headlines with repeated posts.
Trolls work in teams and play both sides of the divisive issue.
Trolls reply to each other to create engagement.

Here's a Guardian article that describes all these tactics: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

Again, I'm NOT calling anyone a troll, just reminding everyone the ways some divisive issues can damage our community. Let's be aware. And let's try to be as positive as possible. We should work to come together on as many issues as we can. Finding common group and unifying is the way forward to a blue wave in 2018.

[gollygee]

1. Then let's come together and all agree that racism is a huge problem

and that we should call it out and do what we can to eradicate it.

Or do you mean we should ignore it?

[sharedvalues]

5. A huge problem in America, agreed

It's been a core problem in America for almost our whole existence as a country.
I have been slightly heartened by the recognition in America that white privilege needs to be examined.

For example:

Link to tweet

But let's also remember this racism:


That is Republicans INTENTIONALLY AMPLIFYING racism against immigrants and Hispanics, in pursuit of political power.

As Americans we should all stand together to call out that Republican racism. That's a constructive issue we can all get behind, yes?

[gollygee]

7. Absolutely

Unfortunately, some of our people of color DU posters have had accusations thrown at them that they are trolling because they bring up "divisive" issues like racism.

[procon]

12. Has anyone here said racism isn't an issue or proposed to ignore it?

No, of course they haven't, so lets not create a fake problem. Certainly everyone wants to eliminate racist thinking and there's no disagreement at DU on that matter, and we can all works to find solutions by discussing effective ways to change that attitude.

I'm not yet convinced that is primary goal of those who are seemingly more interested in pinning labels on white people.

[EffieBlack]

18. Few people say racism isn't a problem. They just insist it isn't happening in THIS case. Or THIS

time. Or in THIS instance. Or with THIS situation.

They love to claim they understand that racism exists. But they never think that racism is ever an issue in any particular case - and they demand that no one else talk about it because, in their view, talking about it is divisive and will make it MUCH harder to address racism when it REALLY occurs - whenever that happens.

[procon]

19. No one has said any such thing.

What do you hope to gain by deliberately instigating these unnecessary, belligerent conflicts?

[EffieBlack]

20. Oh, my dear, it's said all the time here.

Therein lies the problem.

[OneGrassRoot]

23. She isn't instigating conflicts...

She, as a woman of color, is trying to educate the well-meaning white people here (I'm one).

In response to her efforts to get more of us to see things more clearly from another perspective, others are indeed being belligerent.

[procon]

27. That's not 'education", its antagonistic.

A teacher doesn't call people racial slurs, browbeat them and humiliated humiliate them under the guise of 'educating' those who don't meet some imaginary mark. If blacks don't like to be labeled with some demeaning put-down based on race, where is the logic that says whites will react any differently?

[OneGrassRoot]

28. The majority of us don't feel as you do.

You’re in the minority here and not wearing it well. The victim stance is...sad. i

[Docreed2003]

33. Wait!

Are you suggesting Effie uses "racial slurs", "browbeats" people and "humiliates" them? Because it sure reads that way.

[tonedevil]

24. We need to wait for all the facts...

Not everything is racial, if you are breaking the rules it doesn't matter what race you are. These are a small sample of the phrases that accept that there is a concept called racism, but in this particular case it could be explained by something else.
If you dislike belligerent conflicts why do you indulge in such bellicosity?

[Tipperary]

40. You are not the only one to wonder.

Presumably, on a Democratic board, we all share the same values. Most of us have spent our lives working to advance those values, fight racism, educate those who are still clinging to racist beliefs, as well as our other values.

I am puzzled as to why a small few feel the need to lecture us daily on what we all already know. The lecturing is tiresome enough, but the recent name-calling is unnecessarily divisive. And counter-productive.

[BlueTsunami2018]

2. Yes, it's epidemic on social media.

I see it constantly on Facebook but I’ve stopped playing the game. Too bad many others cannot.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. Highlighting the issue of racism is not divisive.

[sharedvalues]

6. I tried to explain how we can discuss divisive issues and also stay positive.

I think it is very very important to talk about racism. But it's also important to make sure that we find ways to come together on shared values and common ground and find ways to unify.

Here's a proposal: for every post on a painful divisive issue that we have to confront, maybe that poster also makes one post seeking to find a unifying theme that we can all move forward together on?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. I think it's much more important for people with privilege to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

That doesn't mean losing their privilege -- that's hard to do. But people with privilege can afford to listen to the hard truths oppressed people are trying to tell them, they can afford to take the time to seriously ponder another person's reality, they can afford to be uncomfortable in the moment to consider other experiences. They lose nothing by doing so, and have everything to gain. It's just that so many refuse to do so, because it's hard and awkward and feels hurtful. It's much easier to look for "unifying themes" and "positivity" and "shared values," when digging into the discomfort and pain is where true progress and growth happens.

[sharedvalues]

10. Being uncomfortable is the way we learn and is essential. But breaking DU would be bad.

We need to find a happy medium - these are essential issues to discuss. But we also need to find a way to join together on as many issues as possible, and find ways to form political coalitions to make America a better place to live.

Because if we dont' form unified coalitions, Republican billionaires will crush us with propaganda and destroy the country.
(That's the reason why trolls harp on divisive issues -- because constant discussion of divisive issues blocks unity. And then Republicans win. And America loses.)

[gollygee]

11. DU won't get broken

It's survived much more than this.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. Your view makes sense if this is primarily a party-buildling site.

Different people use it for different things, so it's hard to get that unity.

[sharedvalues]

14. But that unity is essential for America. For our society. For our well-being.

It's not just about Dems anymore. The GOP is a racist propaganda org funded by billionaires who don't care who they harm as long as they get tax cuts.

The country is on the line. Our society is on the line. Hell, the whole WORLD is on the line - America has a huge role to play in the world. We MUST unify and fight back against the institutional racism and hate of the GOP. If we are divided we will lose, to the detriment of all of our kids and grandkids.

[procon]

17. Why do you believe white people aren't already aware?

You're painting everyone with the same broad brush and criticizing the very people who want to help, who are already working to promote equality and justice. Perhaps that's not good enough from your unique perspective, so what would you want white people to do?

There's a lot of posts being written around a central theme, the fervent desire to see white people suffering in "discomfort and pain". You claim that would be "true progress" rather than what it looks like; retribution. If you really must have your proverbial pound of flesh, what type of "discomfort and pain" must white people experience before they are considered cleansed sufficiently to pass muster? If it isn't good enough to be looking for "unifying themes" to unite us all in solidarity, or try to promote "positivity" and the "shared values" of our common humanity, what do you demand that white people to do to achieve this mystical "growth" you speak of?

[cwydro]

21. Well said.

[Docreed2003]

35. Please point me towards those threads!

Where are people here on DU asking for "white people" to experience "discomfort and pain"?? Please show me that, because I haven't seen anything close to that assertion!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

43. Because of the way they resist it when faced with it.

My point is that facing the true nature of white supremacy in this country is painful to do. It's painful for people to think about how a system designed to keep others down has benefited them, or that the institutions they trust and rely on are skewed in favor of them, even as they know that the national narratives of self-made people and benefiting only from one's merit and hard work are in many cases simply myths. The country is built on the idea of white supremacy, and dismantling those structures will be hard. Coming to terms with the concept of privilege and how it has benefited one's life -- not the life of a population, or a demographic, but the role it has played it one's own success -- is painful, and a lot of people resist it because they don't want to think about how the system is built to benefit them by hurting others.

That's not retribution. That's transparency, and it's the first step to justice. It can feel like retribution. It can feel like revenge. People can pretend it's a call for public shaming or a requirement repent and confess. But trying to "move on" and look for "unifying themes" before identifying the structures that are preventing those themes from being identified will mean any outcome is incomplete.

[Empowerer]

25. It's not anyone's job in a political discussion board to make people feel comfortable

And if they say something that makes white people uncomfortable, it’s not their obligation to make up for it with fuzzy posts.

And this really is all about white people’s comfort. Every day on this board, I see white insult and dismiss people of color but when the POC push back, even in the gentlest ways, we’re attacked. Just look at how EffieBlack is treated no matter how careful and patient she is. I don’t see even a minimum amount of concern about our feelings or whether we’re uncomfortable. In fact, even the mention that we might be uncomfortable by something someone said is grounds for further attacks and, almost always, accusation’s that WE’RE being “divisive.”

So, no. I’m going to post whatever I pleasevand if that makes some people uncomfortable, maybe they should do a gut check. But I’m certainly not going to do penance for having said anything that you might not like by going out of my way to “unify” everyone. That’s not why I’m here.

[sharedvalues]

39. No. It's about Democratic election wins.

I pointed out Russian trolls to illustrate a truth:
People who want to harm Democrats do so by attacking all kinds of progressives on racism. They attack both sides. They are not constructive. Their aim is to cause infighting.

Infighting harms Democrats. And thus it harms America (given the autocratic modern GOP).

Racism is incredibly important and MUST be discussed. But lets remember that the GOP aims to INCREASE racism. If we want to improve America, we must stop the GOP. And to do that, Democrats must unify and avoid excesssive infighting.

[Empowerer]

47. "Racism is incredibly important and MUST be discussed"

But only when and how YOU think it should be discussed and anything that makes YOU uncomfortable is “excessive infighting,” right.

Well, I have an idea. If you want to avoid “excessive infighting,” when a person of color expresses an opinion about race, don’t go out of your way to start an argument with them. Don’t tell them their opinion is wrong. Don’t tell them they don’t know what they’re talking about. Don’t whitesplaining about experiences you have never had. Don’t accuse them of being disruptive or non-unifying because their talking about their experiences and lives makes you uncomfortable and you don’t want to hear about them. Just shut up and listen to what they’re saying. And if you don’t agree with them, just agree to disagree and move on to something else where you can find common ground.

In other words, stop behaving as if it is OUR fault that you don’t agree with us. Stop expecting us to police everything we say to avoid saying anything you don’t agree with. Stop feeling jumping in our faces and telling us off whenever you damned well please and then loudly complaining if we respond. Stop blaming US for being “divisive” because you don’t have enough self-control to keep yourself from being triggered by a different opinion from people of color.

Recognize that “unity” is a two-way street and if you are really interested in fostering it, stop talking about it and do YOUR part. You will find that, if you don’t start nothing and there won’t be nothing.

[Garrett78]

26. "But it's also important to..."

"I think it is very very important to talk about racism. But it's also important to make sure that we find ways to come together on shared values and common ground and find ways to unify."

I would hope those aren't mutually exclusive. In other words, I would hope anti-racism *is* a shared value around which we can unify.

After all, absent racism, the Republican Party would cease to be viable.

[sharedvalues]

38. YES!!!! Exactly

Yes. Embracing diversity and a fair shake for all IS a democratic value. And an American value.

So you’re exactly right, when we discuss racism we should be focused on denigrating the forces in the country that want to amplify racism: The Republican Party. If there are progressives that are racist, we should call them out and kick them out of the party.

In contrast, an example of destructive discussion is when people focus on attacking other progressives. Political reality in America is that attacking progressives helps the GOP, so any progressive who attacks Democrats is shooting themselves in the foot. (Though sometimes a bit of criticism is necessary. See MLK’s quote on how the apathy of the white moderate holds back progress.)

So two takeaways:
- try to discuss constructively. Give your allies the benefit of the doubt and aim for unity.
- try not to repeat the same point over and over if it’s not leading to constructive progress.

[Empowerer]

48. To many people here, they are mutually exclusive

The issues they care about are “must dos” that must be addressed now, even if it means facing uncomfortable truths. Race and racism are “nice to dos” that we should back burner so they don’t antagonize anyone, but we’ll address them later once we get past these other priorities. Promise.

[Garrett78]

50. Without realizing...

...those other priorities are dead on arrival thanks to the fostering and exploitation of racism.

[NurseJackie]

8. This ... Yes.

And in spite of the preemptive denial it certainly does sound exactly like the op is accusing someone of being a "troll".

[sharedvalues]

15. I'm really not.

There are just some tactics that aim to damage discussion, and thus damage America.

We all probably do some of those things without realizing. But by looking at those tactics and how they hurt discussion, we can actively avoid doing those things, and aim towards more productive discussion -- while still discussing essential issues.

[NurseJackie]

49. This OP for example?

There are just some tactics that aim to damage discussion, and thus damage America.

This OP for example?

See, I can make wild accusations and assumptions too. It's really not that difficult to tell who the REAL "trolls" are, and it's unfair for anyone to bandy about that word, and lob it the direction of some well-respected DUers, with an accusation that they "aim to damage". GMAFB!

All I'm saying is that even though some may find this discussion to be annoying and unproductive (and uncomfortable), there are many others who are taking the time to LISTEN and who are TRYING and making an effort... and, as a result, they are learning a lot.

It's also my best guess that there are still even MORE voices that are just beginning to warm up. Brace yourself. Stand by. There's more to come.

[cwydro]

4. Good post.

It’s been pretty ugly around here lately.

Usually the same posters stirring the pot.

[Trust Buster]

16. Yes, a handful of posters are pushing this divisive garbage.

[DFW]

22. True enough

Always the same names hammering always the same issues, with little to no interest in anything else.

Kinda obvious.

[leftofcool]

30. Which divisive garbage?

racism, sexism? I need to know which topics you think are divisive so I am careful to not talk about those topics.

[sharedvalues]

37. That's the point: it's not about topics

Racism and sexism are important topics to discuss here.
It’s not the topic, it’s the way they are discussed.

If we discuss them in a way that tries to find common ground and tries to make forward progress, that is good.
If all we do is denigrate other members of the Democratic coalition, that is bad.

Of course most discussions will be between those two extremes. But it’s important to focus on constructive discussion and how we improve the country. (I think it’s useful to think about troll tactics because they provide an example of non-constructive discussion.)

[betsuni]

29. For example:

A person on a Democratic discussion board has nothing positive to say about Democrats and thinks mention of racism and sexism is divisive because it distracts from the economic policies the person claims Democrats don't have, suddenly becomes a militant feminist or outraged by racism. Someone has posted an article about racism and the formerly Talking about Race is Divisive person digs up old articles where the author criticized the Democratic Party. They pretend to be shocked, shocked! that the author is saying negative things about Democrats and should be banned from a Democratic discussion board. Saw that today.

THAT's playing both sides of an issue, is trolling.

[sharedvalues]

36. Yup, sounds like it

[KY_EnviroGuy]

31. Solution: Set the tone of our OPs that invites rational discussion.

If most DU issue-related OPs only post events that are representative of a problem, that only invites furor toward that event and perhaps unique solutions only for the event. However, it is important that we at least are aware of such events.

On the other hand, if some our OPs present the general issue (perhaps including some statistics) and invites rational discussion on that issue, then we're working toward more universal solutions.

It does not achieve anything for someone at a computer six states distant to be demeaning a store employee or irate customer for misdeeds, other than allow us to vent anger. These sorts of discussions also tend to attract trolls.

What is effective is for me to be an observer of these events (which informs my knowledge of our national issues) and try to propose ideas that can be implemented via my interactions at local outlets, or I can encourage my legislators to propose regulations or laws to discourage similar behavior if it is that serious.

......

[oberliner]

32. Great point

Less lecturing and hectoring and more inviting rational discussions.

[betsuni]

34. "hectoring"

[Rhiannon12866]

44. Well said.

Several years back, the admins asked members to participate in a questionnaire to improve DU - and the overwhelming response was a wish for more civility. We generally support the same goals, so there's nothing to be gained by antagonizing each other. DU is a community.

We'd do well to listen to Eugene Robinson:

Eugene Robinson on midterms: no defeatism and infighting allowed
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016206877

[KY_EnviroGuy]

51. Thanks Rhiannon. We need civility both in serious discussions as well as...

informal ones and we need more civility all over the planet. The wealthy across the globe intentionally try to divide us in order to better control us, but they don't seem to understand this will eventually push us into chaos. Our human species creates enough turmoil among our selves with our instincts run amok and climate change about to push many millions to relocate, without billionaires stirring up more trouble (and they use money that ultimately came from us to do it).

I think that anywhere, anytime Democrats - or liberal thinkers anywhere - can participate in healthy, civil discussion and debate, that represents baby steps toward a return to civility and a happier populace. That works whether it's a casual exchange with a neighbor or store employee, or in a formal meeting and it tends to spread to others!.......

I fear that if we of the 99% don't somehow recapture control of our dialog and destiny, we'll be in for some very tragic times in the next 100 years. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think we can do it. I'm too old and dumb to know how, but I'm encouraged watching the energy and attitude of some of the youth movements. We sure as heck can support and share some wisdom with them along the way.

One thing this 'ole guy is sure of is many folks need to lay down the electronics and minimize social media, and return to more direct human interaction. People are far too uncivil with social media interactions and this is corrosive to the psychological health of our society. I have noticed in the last few years that this has slowly crept into face-to-face interactions among my family and friends. Conversations now are far more reactive, and in many cases I feel a lot of what I call smart-ass along with a lot of defensiveness.

I'm afraid they are going to have to do a lot of rebuilding of the "right stuff" after Trump. Despite how tragic he has been for us in the USA, it may be that the real tragedy is the loss of leadership toward progressive goals (environmental, human rights, etc.) across the globe that we've provided for so long. The hangover from this will haunt us for decades.

Thanks for the link to the Eugene Robinson article - it was spot-on!

.........

[Iggo]

41. Yes, you are.

And yes, you are.

Because yes, you are.

[sharedvalues]

42. See above.

The OP isn’t that long. But replies above explain the position in more detail. I’d be happy to discuss any of these points further.

[Iggo]

46. No need. We're clear. (n/t)

[disillusioned73]

45. I still don't get all these "wypipo" posts..

I don't even click on them at this point.. just chuckle and move on