Anyone else OK with stopping all National Anthems at sporting events?

[USALiberal]

I don't see the need. I am in the minority I am sure.

Have it on special days, etc. But not before every event.

[leftstreet]

1. Yes, please. n/t

[forgotmylogin]

236. Yes, indeed.

I was even at a performance of a (touring Broadway) musical once where they played the national anthem before the overture and it was really weird.

I don't need politics in my entertainment except for an acknowledgment in the program that the NEA assisted with the funding.

[samnsara]

2. i agree... why is it even part of the event?

..we even have to sing it before the dang pro bull riding...why why why???

[USALiberal]

5. I went to a concert last week, no National Anthem there. So why sports? nt

[PoliticAverse]

204. Shhhhh. You'll give people ideas. n/t

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

88. I say we stop watching/attending all NFL football games & boycott these racist, bigotted a-holes!!

[Demsrule86]

108. Nailed it...these NFL owners supported the Trump campaign. Why should we help them make money to be

used against us?

[lunatica]

180. Even more effective is stop buying football paraphernalia

That’s where the real money is.

[Demsrule86]

183. Great idea.

[BobTheSubgenius]

224. And $8 hot dogs and $12 beer.

I bet one day's concession take at a sold-out NFL stadium would last me the rest of my life.

[Roland99]

3. YES!

[onit2day]

101. The DOD paid NFL owners with taxpayer dollars to promote the military flag

ceremonies. The teams did not come on the field until after the NA was finished so the DOD paid owners millions to put them on the field during the NA. It's purely a propaganda project where people are forced to participate through no choice of their own. It all started in 1918 when baseball attendance was down they started playing the NA and attendance went up so they kept it at all games. Now the NFL is being paid tax dollars to politicize our NA and kneeling has got nothing to do with not respecting the flag or patriotism. It is a protest against the systematic killing of unarmed black men by police with no accountability. Republican leaders do not stand for America because they don't stand for Americans.

[calimary]

199. AND the NFL enjoys tax-exempt status.

WHY? That's one thing that should definitely change.

[PoliticAverse]

208. It did change, see...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tax-season/

[Hortensis]

205. YES ALSO! :) Teams used to come out AFTER

the anthem, also, and if stopping this nationalist noise draws too much opposition, returning to that old practice makes perfect sense. Somehow I doubt the teams would have a problem with it.

[greymattermom]

4. Yes.

Because, what if the sport is hockey? What if the Toronto Blue Jays are playing? When do you stand?

[dawg]

40. When do you stand?

Whenever you want to.

[kiri]

99. Patriotism by rote is not true love of country

Patriotism by rote is not true love of country.

[hardluck]

171. I have no problem standing for both - YMMV

Have you seen a hockey game in Canada? You should hear the whole crowd sing their national anthem. It's crazy loud and they were so into it. I've never seen such a display in the US. And this was at a run of the mill Sens/Bruins game, not a playoff game.

[MichMan]

173. Done at the NASCAR races in Michigan too

Very common in Michigan to play both the Canadian and US anthems at sporting events

[greymattermom]

6. Just do what Churchill Downs does.

Play My Old Kentucky Home with fake lyrics for every event.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Nah but participation should be voluntary

And the kneeler should be accorded the same respect as the stander.

[USALiberal]

10. Why do you think we need it? Concerts don't have them. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. There are plenty of "hills" I'm prepared to die on.

Removing the National Anthem from sporting events is not one of them.

[USALiberal]

34. Ahhh.....OK, what ever that means. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. As long as participation is voluntary on those playing and observing the Anthem is voluntary

As long as participation is voluntary on those peforming and observing the Anthem is voluntary I don't have a problem with it. If I go to a Heat game the Heat have a right to play or not play the Anthem and I have a right to stand or not stand .

They could play Smoke On the Water for all I care.

[USALiberal]

39. You have to know it will never be voluntary. But carry on. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. What happens to the right of the team that wants the Anthem performed at their events ?

What happens to the right of the team that wants the Anthem performed at their events and those that want to hear it?

You know the whole majority rule/minority rights thing.


"But carry on. nt."

[Ferrets are Cool]

59. If you NEED to hear an "anthem" at a sporting event to KNOW

if you are patriotic......fill in the blanks.

They ONLY reason for the playing of it now at sporting events is because of our "NEED" to feel good about ourselves after 911. Then the repugs highjacked it and now it is mandatory. I'm SICK of them dictating what I need in my life. FUCK THIS SHIT

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. If I don't want to stand for the Anthem I can sit or I can stay home.

Where is my right to tell a team owner what he can or can't do with his event and how about the right of those who like ostentatious displays of patriotism ? Is my right not to participate greater than their right to participate, especially when I have the right not to participate at all ?

That's what pluralism is all about. That's what Trump and the Deplorables are trying to undermine. They will recieve my resistance, not assistance.

[angrychair]

92. Sorry, you're oversimplifying it

It’s just not that simple. You know, practically speaking, you do not have the ability to sit if you want, much less take a knee. No, there is no law but you are inviting public ridicule and even possible expulsion from the venue.

Over the years they have made it a social norm to stand and acknowledge the anthem. Now with trump’s comments and the new NFL rule, they have taken it several notches closer to fascism.

It’s not about who has a greater right to what. It’s about stopping our steady march to a fascist state. We cannot allow flags and songs or even military service to determine who is and who is not an American and how good of an American someone is or is not.

That is why it’s important to take a stand and why it’s a hill worth dying on.

[Ferrets are Cool]

111. +1

[pangaia]

150. That was very very very well said.

[NoMoreRepugs]

262. Spot on.... the march to Facism is the real fight.

[Ms. Toad]

156. In today's climate, participation is not really voluntary

because of the social pressure (at the mild end) placed on people who do not participate. In this age of hyper-partisanship and hyper-patriotism, it can be considerably stronger than just social pressure.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

194. I agree with you that bucking convention is extraordinarily difficult.

I'm reminded of the quote from John Kennedy that " War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today." I look forward to the day that the kneeler "enjoys the same reputation and prestige " the stander does..


With that as a foundation I watch over one hundred basketball games a year. From a purely operational standpoint I don't see how you can remove the National Anthem from these events as long as the lion's share of owners and fans want it.

[Ms. Toad]

200. It's not an issue that I feel drawn to spend time on.

I was just pointing out that your condition of it being voluntary is not one that can be met in the current climate - even if it is labeled voluntary.

Even in situations where it is legally required to be voluntary (e.g. public schools), there are still students being docked grades, expelled, being verbally berated by the teacher, etc., for offenses ranging from refusing to be present, refusing to stand, or refusing to participate - regardless of the fact that doing so is blatantly unconstitutional in a public school setting.

It is even worse in situations where speech is not protected.

[nature-lover]

44. Many other issues are worth a concerted fight. This is not among them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. Precisely.

A team can play any damn song they want before a game as long as my participation isn't mandatory.

[USALiberal]

64. So the kneeling players are wrong to protest? Not worth the fight? nt

[nature-lover]

162. Yes, it is worth the fight! I was just explaining the previous post where the author said ...

...that it wasn't "a hill they would die for." I heartily approve the kneeling players protest. I think that the NFL and Trump are totally wrong on their stance.

[USALiberal]

166. OK, sorry! Thank you!! nt

[nature-lover]

169. No problem. I should have been more specific. Posts were not consecutive as I had hoped.

[Demsrule86]

184. +100

[LanternWaste]

49. We don't 'need' sporting events, either.

We don't 'need' sporting events, either.

'Need' seems an irrelevancy in these cases.

I'd imagine 'want' is a bit more germane.

[SoCalNative]

87. I'm in complete agreement

All sports are a useless waste of time in my book.

[shanny]

76. "should be voluntary"?

it is voluntary, unless you are an NFL player.

[Dr. Strange]

115. Or an NBA player.

Don't forget about Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf!

[shanny]

198. Wasn't aware of that--I think things have changed in the NBA though.

At least some are not as clueless as the NFL owners.

[CanonRay]

8. Me.

Talk about slippery slopes. And get rid of the giant flag on the field, the flyovers, and all the rest of that shit.

[USALiberal]

12. I agree!!! nt

[Glorfindel]

9. It's almost - almost - as silly as a prayer braying over a loudspeaker

before a high-school football game. Absolutely, stop the silliness. Just play the f***ing game!

[charliea]

91. Prayers over loud speakers?

Sounds like a muezzin calling from a mosque, use that simile and I bet a significant portion of the audience would call for it to cease.

[Va Lefty]

11. Yes and stop playing God Bless America during 7th inning stretch

[USALiberal]

14. + 1000! nt

[treestar]

26. +1

Take Me Out to the Ball Game.

[MontanaMama]

213. The Cubs still play

Take Me Out To The Ball Game during the stretch. I don’t believe most other MLB teams do. The God Bless America thing crept into baseball games after 9/11. It’s depressing and I think insensitive to all the players who aren’t American and that’s a bunch of folks.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

42. I thought they played Take Me Out to the Ball Game

then.

You can tell I've been to pro baseball games exactly twice in my life.

[shanny]

78. they used to

[PoliticAverse]

210. They did when Harry Caray was alive, anyway...

[TDale313]

252. Didn't the switch to God Bless America

By a lot of teams happen after 9/11, or am I remembering that wrong?

In any event, yes, please go back to Take Me Out to the Ball Game. And I’d fine with not having the National Anthem at the start of every sporting event.

[DeminPennswoods]

256. After 9/11, but now only played on Sundays

during 7th inning stretch.

[Greybnk48]

13. 100% ok with it.

No giant flags. No jets flying over (for football). It is not a national nor a military event.

[oberliner]

15. Players should still feel free to protest, anthem or no

I still feel like the core of the message of the protest is getting lost in all of this.

[Aristus]

31. The message IS getting lost. And that's the reason for the manufactured brouhaha.

The PTB don't want the message getting out that white cops killing unarmed black men and boys is wrong.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Agreed.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Of course. There was never a good reason to do it in the first place.

[dawg]

18. I say keep the national anthem before sporting events.

And allow everyone to sit, stand, or kneel as they see fit.

The song and the flag are worthless if they don't stand for freedom.

[USALiberal]

19. Why do you think we need it? Concerts, for example don't have them. nt

[dawg]

36. I don't like the idea of letting political considerations change our traditions.

I also don't like the idea of just doing away with the anthem rather than fighting for people's right to protest.

[USALiberal]

118. Want a list of traditions we got rid of?? nt

[eggplant]

134. It's not a tradition.

It is paid for by our military to boost enlistment, courtesy of our tax dollars. And just in the past decade.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html

[dawg]

159. Bullshit!

They've been playing the national anthem before sporting events since before I was born.

The very article you linked talks about the Star Spangled Banner being played before baseball games going back all the way to 1897.

[SCantiGOP]

168. Let's put abolishing the anthem in the Dem platform

We might win 50 House seats next election. Not 50 more, 50 total.
Everybody here does understand that about 75% of Americans would be adamantly opposed to this?

[mgardener]

190. I remember as a kid

Having the national anthem played at professional football and baseball games during the 60's and 70's.

[BannonsLiver]

186. What's a practical reason for keeping it?

[dawg]

189. Not letting Republicans take ownership of it.

Actually fighting the fight over people who want to take a knee instead of just finding a clever way to avoid the confrontation.

[BannonsLiver]

191. That's an emotional argument, not a practical argument

Again, what is a practical reason for playing it?

[dawg]

193. Lots of people want to hear it. It makes them feel patriotic.

They like the tradition of it. It's part of the overall experience.

Beyond that, there really isn't a practical reason for anything to do with professional sports. Why do they do the wave? Should it be banned?

Why do they still play that Gary Glitter song despite the fact that we all know he's a pedophile?

Why do they still have cheerleaders? What is the practical reason for that?

Ultimately, this whole thread is silly. No one is going to ban the national anthem being played before ball games. It's just not going to happen. (And any candidates who propose doing so will get slaughtered.)

[scarytomcat]

20. and god bless america too

take me out to the ball park at baseball games is OK

[USALiberal]

21. I agree!!! nt

[defacto7]

22. Absolutely... it's embarrassing.

[Progressive dog]

23. That's a start.

[treestar]

25. I am fine with that

It is just not a necessary part of them.

[DemocracyMouse]

27. No more anthems at simulations of war please.

Unless we start singing the anthem at the natural history museums and National Parks and all the other sectors of a sane and well-rounded culture.

Wow... Here's an idea. Can we sue the commercial sports establishments for even using our "collectively owned" music? Shouldn't the NFL be charged? Sued? Then send the money to the hundreds of thousands of adjunct professors sleeping in their cars and the millions of students too hungry in the morning to study... god, what a f**d up culture war.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. I like this song better

[DemocracyMouse]

63. Bruce singing Woody Guthrie!

[Iggo]

28. I already ignore it. If they stopped it and didn't tell me, I might not even notice.

Actually, if there's a really good singer, I listen. I do like the song.

But for the most part, and with varying degrees of success, I've endeavored to resist fascist displays pretty much since 9/12.

[Shrike47]

29. Yes. They are not political events.

[Orsino]

30. The attempt to associate (mostly) male athletics with patriotism....

...has Patriarchy written all over it. The current fetish of white fans/owners for making (mostly) black athletes obey is one of the more obvious manifestations of systemic racism.

"Watch us make those ------s do what we/you tell 'em," the NFL promises.

[NCTraveler]

32. I couldnt care less what the leagues decide in this area.

It depends how they determine it fits into their business model.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. As long as observance isn't compulsory

As long as observance isn't compulsory where do I get the right to say whether or not a sports team gets to play the National Anthem or any other song they choose before a game ?

[NCTraveler]

50. I couldn't care less about that either.

It's simply not significant. It's their business model. Zero legal issues. Zero constitutional issues.

"where do I get the right to say"

Buy a team. Work with the league. Lobby to become the President of a league. Work with the Union. Set your rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. As long as the kneeler has the same right as the stander I am content.

It's not up to me, the proverbial you, or anybody to abridge the right of either.

[NCTraveler]

55. "As long as the kneeler has the same right as the stander I am content."

What "right" are you talking about? That sentence makes no sense.

If standing is a requirement, and there are penalties for kneeling, then one is within the rules and one isn't. It's extremely simple. No legal issue. No constitutional issue.

The proverbial you is insignificant in this decision. The decision would be made in what they see as in the best interests of their business model.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. IMO the NFL has a right to play the Anthem and the players have a right to stand or kneel.

Do the players have a Constitutional right to kneel ? That's beyond my ken. The NFL gave themselves an out by letting them stay in the locker room if they choose not to participate.

[NCTraveler]

65. I don't get where you are at.

What rights?

"IMO the NFL has a right to play the Anthem and the players have a right to stand or kneel."

Of course they can play the anthem. That is simple. The end to that sentence of yours tells me you don't understand rights. There are rules. If a player does not follow them in this instance the government will not be pressing charges. They will be fined by the league or some other punishment. Fully legit. Not an issue over rights.

"players have a right to stand or kneel."

Simply makes no sense.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. What if a player is a Jehovah's Witness ?

Can he or she be compelled to stand when standing contradicts the tenets of their religion which include not having graven idols?

[NCTraveler]

70. lol.

This is deep.

They can go back to the locker room.

JW are allowed to stand in such a situation. They are ALREADY not required to be forced to do so by way of LAW. Lord the things people don't know but are willing to make as the cornerstone of their argument.

JW standing with hand over heart for the NA.

By law JW do not have to stand for the NA. It's already set precedence.

Your issues in this conversation simply confirm this for me.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210651049

[Mr.Bill]

93. For that matter, by law

no one has to stand for the national anthem. No law requires it.

[NCTraveler]

96. Absolutely correct.

And exactly why this rule is not a constitutional issue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. I will be the bigger poster, take the high road, and not respond with an ad hominem of my own.

lol.

This is deep.

...

JW are allowed to stand in such a situation. Lord the things people don't know but are willing to make as the cornerstone of their argument

NCTraveler

Flag salute. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that bowing down to a flag or saluting it, often in conjunction with an anthem, is a religious act that ascribes salvation, not to God, but to the State or to its leaders. (Isaiah 43:11; 1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21)

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008085

Whom should I believe, a random internet poster or the official organ of the Jehovah's Witnesses ?


We can discuss how the Courts have ruled on their right to abstain from such acts if you so desire.

P.S. Before you personally attacked me you perhaps you could have asked me how I am familiar with the conventions of the Jehovah's Witnesses and I could have told you I attended their services and sat in on their Bible studies. I could have also told you my best childhood friend was a "JW".

[NCTraveler]

100. Don't believe the video.

Whatever you do, don't believe what is right in front of your eyes.

JW are already protected by law in this area.

"you could have asked me how I am familiar with the conventions of the Jehovah's Witnesses"

I have proven that you are not. Would you like for me to post additional videos of JW standing for the NA?

"We can discuss how the Courts have ruled on their right to abstain from such acts if you so desire. "

I already did. It's in the post you are responding to. Just strange.

I love the self proclamation of "the high road". Self proclamations in this area are always on solid ground. It's always understood as a righteous self proclamation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. If you believe that video is dispositive there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

What part of "Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that bowing down to a flag or saluting it, often in conjunction with an anthem, is a religious act that ascribes salvation, not to God, but to the State or to its leaders " * don't you understand ?


How is that video dispositive of anything ? Finding a video of a person ignoring/disobeying a tenet of their religion is not proof the tenet doesn't exist. That's, well, elementary. If I find a video of a Jewish or Muslim person eating pork is that proof that their religion doesn't command them not to ?

In short people ignore the tenets/commands of their religion all the time. Sometimes it's out of convenience. Sometimes it's a desire for some material gain, which seems to be the case in the instance you cited.


As to the personal stuff I would prefer to put all this unpleasantness behind us.



*https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008085

[PoliticAverse]

211. No. The law requires companies to make "reasonable accommodations" for employee religious beliefs..

That's been taken to mean muslim truck drivers can't be required to deliver alcohol, for example.

[USALiberal]

73. Sounds like you might agree with the NFL penalty stance. Nice. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

119. What part of the NFL has a right to play the Anthem and the players have a right to stand or kneel

What part of "the NFL has a right to play the Anthem and the players have a right to stand or kneel" don't you understand ?


Sounds like you want to put words in my mouth."Nice. nt "


BTW, the position you ascribed to me is actually the position my interlocutor took. Reading is fundamental.


This thread is too much. "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." Forcing individuals to do things that violate their conscience is an abomination to me. That's the hill i would die on.

[avebury]

89. Players kneeling is a form of free speech.

They are not harming anyone so they should not be prohibited from exercising their right to free speech. It would be interesting to see if the ACLU would take on a court case to sue the NFL League and the owners.

It seems hypocritical for the NFL to, on the one hand, allow the promotion of the military, an organization that fights to protect the country and our people and our rights and then on the other hand fight to deny the players their 1st Amendment rights.

Obsessive worship of the American Flag appears to be a form of idolatry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

130. My position

A person should be free to stand or kneel during the National Anthem. The question is whether or not a player has a Constitutional right to kneel. The First Amendment protects you from government reprisals for your speech, not your employer, with some narrow exclusions. You get into things like labor law and collective bargaining agreements. Is this instance one of them ? It's beyond my understanding.

In short I believe they have the right to kneel. Whether or not the courts would agree with me I can't answer.

[avebury]

138. I would hope that a good attorney would

be able to make a case that this is not just a matter of an Employer issue with the players. It is clear that the NFL is folding under pressure from the US President. By allowing Trump to push them into instituting a rule that would punish players for kneeling, Government is in fact being brought into the matter. The Federal Government (ie Trump) has created a system of reprisal against players who kneel during the anthem. The NFL and most of the owners are in fact, acting as agents of Trump and thus the Federal Government.

[MichMan]

172. It would be very hard to prove it was because of Trump

The NFL has received a ton of backlash from the RW fans who have threatened a boycott starting last year.

The NFL is trying to manage a balancing act to appease both sides right now. That is why I believe they agreed to the $89 million social justice funding program. As I understood, that was an attempt to get the players on board to quit the anthem protests and accept that there was more value to the $89 million.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

195. Trump created a problem where no problem existed.

[RhodeIslandOne]

33. I am other than actual international events

[USALiberal]

35. That makes sense! nt

[NCjack]

38. Yes, and also stop the demonstrations of our war machines and highlighting presence of politicians.

I prefer the spotlight on retired players in attendance.

[wasupaloopa]

41. Yes stop the anthem and 7th inning bull shit at baseball

games

[sellitman]

45. I'm good with making it TOTALLY Voluntary.

What the NFL has done is Un-American.

I will boycott their product going forward.

[Hokie]

46. Aboslutely

I think it cheapens the national anthem to play it at every damned stupid ball game.

[jalan48]

51. Yes, as well as those military jet flyovers.

[CatMor]

53. Yes.....fine with me

I don't think most people even pay attention and can't wait til it's over and the game begins.

[Ferrets are Cool]

54. I mute them all anyway, so YES...however, it will NEVER happen. nt

[Stinky The Clown]

56. I prefer they stay. I am PROUD to remove my hat and put my hand on my heart.

It is the same reason I chose to serve in the Navy. I am an old sap who loves his country and respects its traditions. To stop the anthem is one more cut in the thousand that will be our national death.

Fuck Trump. Fuck the Russian-owned GOP/Right Wing.

[USALiberal]

61. I do it at games only because you are expected to. And no doubt would get scorned it I didn't. nt

[mythology]

58. I think playing it is stupid

[dameatball]

62. I don't care. I am usually trying to pee or get a hotdog before the game starts.

However, no public behavior should ever be mandatory in observance of a symbol.

[blueinredohio]

66. We do not need the national anthem at sporting events

just like I don't need to wear clothes that look like a flag to prove I'm proud of my country.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Raising Hand

It's a ridiculous and useless ritual.

[MichMan]

71. Are you suggesting it be prohibited?

Don't think there will be too many elected officials supporting legislation.

[USALiberal]

72. No, just asking how many here would be fine if it was stopped. nt

[shanny]

74. YES. And the military displays too. Like, yesterday.

[Nevernose]

75. Would people even notice it was gone?

If a league (any sport, any level) how many people would actually notice?

Seriously: that would be an interesting sociological experiment.

[USALiberal]

77. The right wingers would FREAK OUT! nt

[Nevernose]

82. That would be my experiment

Don’t make a big deal out of it, don’t warn people or announce that the anthem will longer be played. I’d bet anything it would be a frog-in-the-pot situation. Even most of the right wingers wouldn’t notice for a few games, not if you didn’t tell them. Nobody goes to (for instance) a high school football game to hear the anthem.

(Except for the parents of the kids in the marching band )

[duforsure]

79. No we don't need it

To be used as PR event for the owners or the NFL. Their claiming to back the military all the time is interesting when they fight for our freedoms the NFL is actively undermining because of a demand from a sitting President , or he'll do things to hurt their bottom line. They should ban together and eliminate it, and with any ties to the government, like promoting the military. That takes the problem out of their situation , because he won't stop with just that, and will just do more to them . He's not done bullying the NFL because they bowed down to him. It'll increase it .

[Wwcd]

80. K & R & I believe you are in the majority on this.

[Rorey]

81. I'm good with that

I think the majority of people are just going through the motions when it's played anyway, thinking about the event that follows.

[90-percent]

83. As a long time drag racing fan

When they play the National Anthem Sunday at the beginning of eliminations, I get chills. The first cars to race are the Top Fuel Dragsters, and they usually hook up the starters and begin the starting procedures before the song ends. The electric whirr, first to clear the engine of lingering nitro, then squirting gas into the injectors, then crew nods, then start up for real, a few silent revs, then ignition on, followed by the most remarkable noise most of us have ever heard in our lives.

It's been a moving moment for me since my youth.

However, for me it has little to do with my love of country, and more to do with the incredible racing to follow.

Also makes me proud of the good stuff the USA has stood for throughout our history. And with our present, the good stuff the USA has done is mostly behind us and, like most DU'ers reading this, makes me fear for what our nation could shortly become.

-90% Jimmy

[DFW]

84. I don't care one way or the other

But don't expect me to respect the flag of a nation that FORCES people to bow down to a song or a flag. That's what our country was established to protect AGAINST. Too bad the last Republican to have realized that was Theodore Roosevelt.

i sing of Olaf glad and big..........

[Amishman]

85. No, I am proud of this country despite the current problems

I think the anthem is a nice patriotic touch. If we take pride in this country it gives more energy to fix the current shitstorm.

Letting the right try to take ownership of patriotism is a huge mistake.

[lunatica]

181. I'm proud of this country too

but I don’t think bending the knee is an insult to it. As a matter of fact I think it implies a belief that this country can improve. Especially regarding racism.

[Amishman]

266. I'm fine with taking a knee, I don't mind the protests

The question was about discontinuing the anthem entirely, which I don't like.

[SoCalNative]

86. Yes

and at the Hollywood Bowl, too. Once a year on the 4th of July is more than enough.

[OnyxSharpie]

90. We just need to wait a bit

I want to see the QB and kicker standing for national anthem while the rest of the team is in the locker room.

Pretty sure those optics will be bad enough to put an end to the whole thing.

[smirkymonkey]

95. Absolutely!

If we make it voluntary that will only give the right-wingers an opportunity to single out those that they don't think are "patriotic" enough so I say do away with it altogether. What do sporting events have to do with patriotism anyway? It's absurd. Just more patriarchal bullshit.

[happy feet]

97. YES

[Wounded Bear]

98. This vet agrees...

we're fast leaving "patriotism" behind and getting into the realm of jingoism.

[TNNurse]

102. I do not intend to sing or stand for the anthem or recite the Pledge

as long as Trump, an illegally elected person, is in office.

[SCVDem]

209. This vet agrees!

After 911 the jingoism became intolerable.

Enough!

[Eliot Rosewater]

103. Yes BUT for now let's DEMAND the players have the right to take a knee or we wont

watch or go to the games, OK?

Here is the problem, while I bet at least half the audience are actual patriots who realize whatc what Colin did was itself the height of patriotism, they will still patronize this shit.

[USALiberal]

145. I agree! I also hope the players find another solution to kneeling, like turning back to field.

[JustAnotherGen]

104. I've heard and read too many right wing 'patriots'

Trivialize the accomplishments of NFL players, and post memes about 'silly little game' - that I cannot disagree with you.

[Auggie]

105. YES

[Gothmog]

106. I am fine with stopping the National Anthem at sporting events

[Demsrule86]

107. What is the point? So we can help the GOP brand us as anti-American?

[DinahMoeHum]

137. Your concern is noted.

n/t

[Demsrule86]

157. Thanks... I support kneeling but to suggest that we do away with what is a tradition can only hurts

us. Polling is clear. Americans are not behind this sort of thing. We still have to do what is right but let's use some political savvy as well. I think a boycott of the NFL may be warranted.

[DinahMoeHum]

160. That's better. Hey, if the teams decide NOT to show up. . .

. . .on the field until the anthem is played (stay in their locker rooms), the other side might just get riled up enough that they will threaten boycott as well. Works for me.

[Demsrule86]

178. It works for me too...I have had reservations about football since I realized the owners are all

rightwingers.

[dawg]

164. Exactly.

Let's support those who kneel *and* those who stand.

Doing away with the anthem would just be a way to dodge the issue. Plus, it makes us look unpatriotic, even though we're the true patriots who are standing up for the freedoms our country aspires to.

[Demsrule86]

177. We are the patriots...let's not allow those traitors to define us.

[BannonsLiver]

187. +10000

What a ludicrous take on this issue. I LOL'd.

[Blue_Tires]

110. I'll see that and I'll raise you

I'd just as soon ditch our anthem altogether... No melodic flow whatsoever...

[relayerbob]

112. Of course!

Never saw the point.

[byronius]

113. Requiring displays of patriotism demeans the nation.

I thought the same thing about the Pledge when I was forced to recite it in grade school. Thoughtless, meaningless, compulsory oaths are anti-American at their core.

But primates love their Authority Worship. It's the same sort of illogicity seen in flag-wrapped idiots who are perfectly fine with being programmed by Russia because Putin looks manly.

"A Republic, to be sure -- but what we need at the head of it is a good strong Czar."

I feel the same way about prayer in Congress. Should be absolutely forbidden, except as private expression.

40% of the nation longs for the same thing Wahabi mullahs long for.

[sinkingfeeling]

114. Absolutely.

[BlueIdaho]

116. Hell Yes!

The anthem about as much place at a sporting event as prayer has at school.

[Gore1FL]

117. Get Rid of "God Bless America," too. nt

[Wednesdays]

136. Irving Berlin would be appalled at what his song has been twisted into

[Martin Eden]

120. Superficial displays of patriotism are worse than no display at all

But you know what would happen ....

The pseudo patriots on the right would scream bloody murder that a bunch of angry black millionaire football players colluded with "The Left" in an un-American assault on our flag and our patriotism.

It would become an even bigger issue than it was before, and the same rightwingers who support Trump's assault on our Constitution and democracy would stage "protests" by singing the national anthem when it normally would have been played -- even though most of them barely paid attention to it before.

[mehrrh]

121. I'm OK with that

I have always questioned why we have to sing the national anthem at sports events.
It seems to lessen the dignity of the flag and what it represents. I think the anthem should be reserved for more solemn occasions and given due respect.

[rusty fender]

122. Absolutely!

I’ve always seen these anthem and military displays at sporting events as cheap jingoism. Save the anthem for official, governmental events.

[George II]

123. I never could understand why they do that. Obviously the networks don't put much importance...

...in them, during the regular season that's over and done with in the NFL before 1:00 (for east coast games). When they sign on they go right into the kickoff. Only last season did they show any but that was because of the controversies on which they wanted to report.

Same thing for NHL games and NBA games. Only MLB makes a point of showing it.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

124. One of the defining characteristics of fascism

is "Powerful and Continuing Nationalism. Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia."

Actually, if you simple google The Defining Characteristics of Fascism (lots of sources out there) this country now embodies all of them.

[paleotn]

125. Yes.

It's silly jingoism. Why are we the only western nation state that has to continually beat its chest? It's ridiculous.

[zentrum]

126. A OK.

[Butterflylady]

127. Go for it.

[mainer]

128. But we need it as a breather to run to the john.

Or buy another beer.

[griloco]

139. Lolllll

[Bettie]

129. I see no reason to keep

it up, especially since it glorifies both war and slavery.

It isn't sacred, it's just a song. A really hard to sing song.

[gopiscrap]

131. Yes including the Olympics

[NRaleighLiberal]

132. PLEASE yes!

[Wednesdays]

133. I agree completely, but good luck trying to get that bill passed

It's been an uphill battle just trying to keep prayer out of sports events (at public schools).

[bucolic_frolic]

135. It's an important symbol of US Sovereignty

and our willingness however unpopular to defend it

But it is thoroughly overdone, overused

Maybe it should be on hiatus until we're at war again

It's difficult tying it to the electronic cyber war over our elections, but it means the same thing

[USALiberal]

143. I do get the war thing. Problem now is endless wars also. nt

[AllyCat]

140. Yup.

[DinahMoeHum]

141. I'm OK with it.

The British have a better attitude about it. They don't play God Save The Queen unless it's an international event, a championship event, or if a member of the royal family is present.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

217. Better whisper that...or tRump will be wanting his own damned anthem.

God Save the Orange Shit Gibbon King, LOL.

.......

[Ms. Toad]

142. Yes.

Don't even have it on special days.

I have religious objections to both nationalism and to the glorification of war - so the hyper-inclusion of the national anthem, pledge of allegiance, etc. in so many public events make navigating those obligatory-participate-or-be-criticized events challenging for me to negotiate in a lot of public activities.

when I was a reporter, I tried not to make my religious beliefs the issue, so I stood and bowed my head during the pledge at local meetings I was covering - not obvious unless someone was specifically watching me - and I was challenged more than once (and this period was even before 9/11 - which dramatically ramped up the frequency and # of people looking for folks who were not patriotic enough).

[LittleGirl]

144. Yes! Please! eom

[Anon-C]

146. Yep. We don't pledge before watching Deadpool 2 or Bruno Mars...

...so let's just put this to rest.

[mwooldri]

147. National Anthems eh? For the English it can be tricky.

Some sporting teams play as Great Britain. So no problem there, "God Save the Queen" works for everyone.

But when it's England vs Scotland... or England vs Wales... Scotland and Wales have their own national anthems. England... doesn't. Some sporting events will play "Land of Hope & Glory" as the unofficial English National Anthem. Some will play Jerusalem. Some will play God Save the Queen.

But a regular sporting event like Manchester United vs Liverpool? Arsenal vs Chelsea? A rugby match? Cricket? Nope. No anthems.

It's just America with its hyper-nationalism. Having the pledge of allegiance rammed down your throat at school every morning.

[Raine]

253. I thought it was interesting that at the end of Harry & Meghan's wedding

they played God Save the Queen. I actually enjoyed hearing it, though it was strange to hear a national anthem at a wedding. Still I guess that wedding was a state occasion.

[vercetti2021]

148. Fine by me

Only came in during WW2. It's outdated and unnecessary nowadays. It's all false patriotism at this point and it was especially after 9/11. Like if you didn't and to this day don't take part in standing or whatever. You're automatically a traitor. I say do away with this and away with American flag apparel as well since it's against the US code. People that bitch about taking a knee have no say since they love to wear an American flag suit around.

[Cognitive_Resonance]

149. It's all part of the show. These are commercial entertainment events. There's really no difference

in substance from "professional wrestling" (other than the outcome not being "fixed&quot . I lost interest around twelve years of age. There are so many other real things in life to experience vs. staged ballgames.

[hatrack]

151. If I'm watching a baseball game, and most of the crowd isn't speaking Japanese or Spanish . . .

. . . then I don't need 50-foot flags or B-2 flyovers to remind me that I'm, in all likelihood, within the borders of the United States.

[Hulk]

152. I'm good with forgetting it altogether.

At the Olympics...fine. Every sporting event is just plain nauseating. People are bored with it, and since we've become aware of the missing, ignored verses, it's become a nuisance to deal with.

To me it's like flag waving. I'm offended by it, and I'm not even sure why that is. It's like we have to pump out our chests and demonstrate that we are "more American" than everyone else. It's ALL bull shit to me anymore.

It reminds me slightly of the German citizen shouting "sieg heil" to show their loyalty to the fatherland. Insane.

[kimbutgar]

153. Yes

[scarletlib]

154. Yes!

[malthaussen]

155. I doubt you'd be in a minority on DU.

You might well be in a minority in certain other locales.

I never saw the point, but never had much of an opinion one way or another. Now it has been politicized and used as a cover for racism. Therefore, it should be discontinued, as another wedge separating Americans.

-- Mal

[erpowers]

158. I Agree

I think the national anthem should only be played during the finals of the playoffs of every sport. From what I have heard this new idea of playing the national anthem before every game only started around 2009 or 2012.

[Devil Child]

161. I'm fine with it stopping, fine with it continuing

Last time I stood for the anthem was at a spring training baseball game. Was there with my father who is a Vietnam vet, I stood for him.

[kacekwl]

163. Why can't people do what they want.

For gosh sake if you want to stand fine . If you want to kneel fine . If you want to salute fine . If you want to eat fine . If you want to pray fine. Everyone keep out of other's business.

[bucolic_frolic]

165. Trump wouldn't sing the anthem if it were stopped

How would he ever learn the words?

[MuseRider]

167. I have been seeing a lot more of this

at concerts of all kinds and every time I go to see a musical you have to stand and sing the anthem. All of these with either a car sized flag (or as my boys used to all them "gags&quot or larger. I am sick to death of it. I am tired of having to play it, tired of listening to people around me try to sing it (impossible range wise but half of them do not know the words) and tired of all the military show at games including tennis now. The first time I have to see a military plane fly over the open air venue for musicals and concerts I frequent I will stop and they will know why.

[MarcA]

174. Agreed. And to those who say its voluntary, its voluntary

to get ridiculed, harassed and worse. How about when Other Employers
are allowed to do the same with the same results? Most people don't have
unions or the money to counter this in the workplace.

[burrowowl]

170. Good Idea!

[sandensea]

175. It plays right into Rethug hands - and bigly!

Don't even think about it.

[redstatebluegirl]

176. Yes yes yes!!!!

[kskiska]

179. If I'm at home watching a sports event on TV

am I obligated to stand and sing the national anthem? If so, how would this be enforced?

[dembotoz]

188. an aide to a rethug senator posted on facebook for he stood for the national while at home

with the interactive home internet devices i wonder if the ability to monitor that is already in place.

and if you say you were in the bathroom during the anthem were you really pooping? and did you flush?

[lunatica]

182. Stop buying their products

They’ll quickly change their tune.

[BannonsLiver]

192. Sporting events are trivial

And I say that as a sports fan. It's amazing to me that RWers, and a few misguided souls here apparently, can't see how playing our national anthem every time a few people get together at a ball field completely debases the song and the meaning/intent behind it.

[Pepsidog]

196. I'm for nixing the anthem

[Captain Stern]

197. I'm ok with stopping it. I'm also ok with not stopping it.

I agree there's no 'need' to play it at sporting events. But, hell, there's no 'need' to have sporting events to begin with.

Play it, don't play it...I don't care either way.

[Demsrule86]

203. I thought about this...I don't think we should cede patriotism to the unpatriotic right, but it

occurred to me...it doesn't matter because no matter how we feel, there is not a chance of stopping it I do think not supporting Trump supporter owner in the NFL with boycott is appealing

[Freethinker65]

201. Does not matter to me as I rarely attend sporting events

The last one I attended was a soccer game and I remained seated.

[juxtaposed]

202. Why we ever started kills me?

[BigmanPigman]

206. Definitely...never mix sports, politics and religion.

[muntrv]

207. Yes.

[bluedigger]

212. As long as we can still play Heard it through the grapevine.

That was great warm up music.

[MontanaMama]

214. I'm for stopping it.

I’ve always found it odd to go to a sporting event that’s supposed to be rowdy and fun only to have to get my serious face on for the anthem. My kiddo plays Little League baseball and I find that pledge off putting too. It starts with “I trust in God, I love my country...” I don’t like it.

[worstexever]

215. I agree with this

I have thought this for years and years. The whole anthem reeks of war and I'm really bothered by the mindless nationalism of the entire tradition.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

216. I'd be fine with just playing the game

We don't play patriotic songs before films, plays, operas, and other public gatherings. I have no idea why we do it at sports events. . I get it on Memorial Day weekend or 4th of July. Otherwise, let's just play the damn game.

[LiberalFighter]

218. I agree! I've been saying that for a while.

American football isn't even really an American sport. Not if the owners want it viewed world-wide.

[LiberalFighter]

219. Should probably focus on one team for a boycott.

And the one that would likely squeal the most about the rule to revoke it is Jerry Jones with the Cowboys.

[bluestarone]

220. I'm all for this!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nitram]

221. We are in a minority, but I agree with you.

What do professional sports have to do with patriotism?

[LisaM]

222. I used to like it. I was in marching band, and we played it before games.

But, it wasn't all crammed down our throats. I don't remember things like stopping concession sales, or having huge flags on the field, or any military nonsense being part of it. It just signaled that the game was going to start. In fact, for years, I felt very sentimental thinking that on any given Friday in the fall, thousands of people were gathering in small towns like mine and they were all playing the national anthem. It gave a continuity to things.

That was before 9/11, when suddenly people on the right decided to use the anthem, the flag, and servicemen and women as a cudgel. And I am very, very sorry about that, because it used to be something I enjoyed.

[Peaceful Protester]

223. What I believe ... I believe

... there should be a moment of silence and the national anthem should play whenever someone orders freedom fries.

... and I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome, natural things that money can buy.

... and I believe in going to church every Sunday unless there's a game on.

[BarbD]

238. Priceless perspective!

[alfredo]

225. America The Beautiful. Video below

Easy to sing, and positive.

[AdamGG]

234. or the George Carlin version...

not inaccurate and it would piss off the Neanderthals

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="

" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[alfredo]

246. Wonderful.

[Susan Calvin]

226. YES.

It is an entertainment, not a patriotic ceremony.

[Hayduke Bomgarte]

227. Yeah. Dump it.

I always mute it anyway and if I'm actually at a game I remain seated. Never had a problem beyond a few disapproving looks, but then I pass for a white guy.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

228. Agree to stopping. It represents rampant corporate hypocrisy.

What is there that connects patriotism (jingoism in this case) to a perfect example of out of control capitalism and extreme economic inequality, racism hiding in plain sight, and a sport known for causing permanent brain injury in players?

I would submit that this use of our anthem is nothing but a tool used by the NFL to extend air time, take money from our government, and to excite the crowds into an emotional frenzy pre-game.

They have no right to abuse our anthem and flag in that fashion for personal and corporate gain. IMO, when the flag is raised and the anthem played at public events, it should only be at those that celebrate or memorialize true, core American values.

........

[rurallib]

229. absolutely

I have always thought it an insult to play the national anthem at a sporting event.

[WyLoochka]

230. Oh yes

Please let's stop the enforced phony "patriotism".

[Blue_true]

231. I think that it should be done, but people should be free to observe or protest it.

I, for one, do my protests by voting. Voting is the only way to bring about meaningful change, other that doing something myself (like working on cost effective clean technology instead of just talking about it's benefits, like configuring rapidly biodegradeable fertilizer, if the plant doesn't take it in, nothing else does).

[Meowmee]

232. Yes

When was that started anyway? I dont believe sports games should have anthems and the army propaganda etc involved. I’ve never liked any of that stuff, it’s simply a hallmark of fascism imo. I had to say the pledge as child and did assemblies etc in England but it was all meaningless to me other than learning some nice music and poetry etc. I don't believe in idolatry or fealty to flags, in pledges and anthems etc.

[AdamGG]

233. I think the tradition started at the World Series during World War I

I'd be fine with ditching it. It's appropriate during Olympic medal ceremonies, but before every sports game is ultranationalist overkill.

[Honeycombe8]

235. Yes. I never understood why it was sung there. I didn't mind it. But why? nt

[Westcoast52]

237. Anthem Versus Pledge Of Allegiance?

The Pledge of Allegiance meant nothing to me in school because it was just a bunch of words done as a ritual. It means something to me now as I see 'hatriots' waving Confederate flags, Nazi flags, Revolutionary War "Don't Tread On Me" flags, etc. The anthem is really a dull, dull song and doesn't inspire any patriotism in me. What we need to do in major gatherings is to re-emphasize the American flag as the only flag we will tolerate, and publicly repudiate any others. That doesn't require military flyovers. It requires burning the others we fought against in our wars. That sanctifies Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and Veteran's Day. When I joined the Army and swore to support and defend the Constitution, I am still under oath. While the Supreme Court allows hate speech, okay. The counter-balance is not flag-waving but destroying the symbols of hate publicly. Recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance puts us on the same page. Excuse this rant.

[Henry Krinkle]

239. I'M LISTENING TO THE FUCKING SONG!

Fine... whatever, just leave hockey out of it... (it's mostly white guys, Canadians
Russians, Slavs and the occasional Nordic anyways).

[Alethia Merritt]

240. Yes, better to play the home state anthem is there is one or the State song.

[cvoogt]

241. Couldn't happen soon enough.

It's a sporting event, not Memorial Day. It means more when used sparingly and in the right setting.

[AllaN01Bear]

242. ive never cared for pro sports and many "amaetuer" sports period.

these are playtoys for the rich. and i agree, why doe we have to sing the national anthem at these and other events . is there a a law that says we have to.

[colsohlibgal]

243. More Than OK

We know what country we are in. Robert Klein used to do a bit about how absurd this is.

[Wolf Frankula]

244. Sporting Events are Sporting Events

Not Patriotic displays. Lose the national anthems (Canada too,) prayers and other excrescences.

Wolf

[JDC]

245. Yes and yes again

[greyl]

247. Definitely. nt

[SergeStorms]

248. Works for me.

Not that I go to sporting events any more, but I used to find it a complete waste of time.

[MrModerate]

249. The national anthem has zero to do with sports.

Why not a football song for the NFL, like baseball has "Take me out to the ballgame"?

[Initech]

250. You know what the really ironic thing about all of this is?

Republicans used to *LOVE* football and it was their religion other than kind of worshipping Jesus. Then one black guy decides to take a knee during the national anthem, Fox News goes fucking apeshit, and they're like "fuck you, I'll start my own league".

[RainCaster]

251. We don't do it in church or at work, why at a game?

Let the Orange Groper start each of his tweets with the anthem. Nobody else gives a shit.

[demosincebirth]

254. It'll speed up baseball, for sure.

[C Moon]

255. Right now, Trump is trying to make himself look like the "the American."

Even thought the asshat is a traitor to the U.S.
So, I don't think it's a good time to bring this to the front.
I believe Trump got together with his billionaire NFL team owners, and arranged to have this brought back to the forefront before the November elections. The issue was nothing. Why they would do this is ridiculously in support of making Trump look like a leader of the U.S.
So, I say, let the lame-ass topic die until after the elections.

[DeminPennswoods]

257. Agree

There's no need for the national anthem at sporting events. Next time you go to a game, look around at the crowd. Plenty of people are walking around, looking at their phones, getting food, hitting the restroom or otherwise not paying attention.

[heaven05]

258. yes

trump is a racist white nationalist along the lines of Hitler. He is using the anthem as a ploy to keep his base of rabid racists chewing on the red meat of racial hate in this country. The presidents' patriotism is right out of Hitler's playbook. Hate of 'others' black and brown.

[BlueJac]

259. Why not??

When it becomes a tool for national division it is time to end it!

[JPPaverage]

260. Yes

In fact I actually posted about that very thing a couple of days ago. But since I posted it, there were very few responses. But yes, the anthem has nothing to do with sports and shouldn't be played. I mean, when I go to a ball game, I want to see athletic feats, not hear singers.

[pazzyanne]

261. I'm in!

We got along without the national anthem for years before tRump turned it into a distraction. I am sure football games will survive without the anthem if it is not performed at the beginning of their games now.

[marble falls]

263. Absofuckinglutely, when more than half the crowd is wearing their MAGA hats and talking ....

looking to see who's on the jumbotron, drinking $10 Bud Lite drafts, chewing rubber hot dogs, chatting and whatever the anthem is part of the ambience and not much more.

I'm waiting for the day when commercials edge the anthem off air. But then I'd have to read about it here because I haven't watched NFL since Art Modell put the Browns on a bus and drove them to Baltimore.

Its hard to support a team that's interchangeable with any other generic team. Its hard to support a league that doesn't respond to its fans in any appreciable way except to find new ways to wring more money out of them, that consists of teams that are 90% interchangeable.

[RVN VET71]

264. Where's Woody Guthrie when you need him?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiB8ojLx6PbAhWOmlkKHfXXCT0Q3ywIKzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwxiMrvDbq3s&usg=AOvVaw0wnwRtILFfRBwoWyclQlEf

His song is a whole lot more inspiring about being a citizen of this Country. It sings of the beauty and wonder of the land, and reminding us all that it is "made for you and me." Hell, it'd be a damn site better, wouldn't it, to have people clappin' hands and signing along with Guthrie's anthem than standing like a bunch of falsely solemn butt holes while that unsingable banner-song is played over the P.A. system or sung by a talented singer forced to pretend she or he is in a goddam choir loft at high mass.

I want to keep the Star Spangled Banner but think it should be stored in a quiet place to be brought out and sung to begin solemn and serious state occasions, like the inauguration of a president, the dedication of a military or political building, the declaration of peace somewhere, etc., not as the opening to gladiatorial exhibitions.

[AdamGG]

267. Well said. The anthem is cheapened by overuse.

[mountain grammy]

265. K & R

Agree 100%