The Problem with NDAA, Lieberman, Signing Statements and Everything Eating Up the Bill of Rights...

[Octafish]

Last edited Wed Jan 4, 2012, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

They all don't matter. It's whatever is in the USA PATRIOT Act that goes.



That's the unnamed, pre-existing law all these new laws and bills serve to clarify and strengthen. What's worse:

Not even our elected representatives can tell us what's in that law that gives them concern. That's classified Top Secret.

Ask Sen. Udall and Sen. Wyden. They want to tell you, but they can't. It's also now against the law for them to say why they can't:

Two Senators have been warning for months that the government has a secret legal interpretation of the Patriot Act so broad that it amounts to an entirely different law — one that gives the feds massive domestic surveillance powers, and keeps the rest of us in the dark about the snooping.

SOURCE: http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/despite-attempts-wyden-and-udall-secr

Something else we should remember, while it's still legal to do so: This isn't democracy -- "government of the people by the people and for the people" -- if We the People aren't in charge.

[rhett o rick]

1. This is the end-game. It will be an uphill fight to reestablish Democracy.

It will most likely get violent. The 1% will not give up without violence.

[Octafish]

3. The elite's control of government means they control government agencies...

...and that includes the alphabet soup in the Intelligence Community, that which must not be named by even two Senators.

And that is the Colossus what Sen. Frank Church (Real DEMOCRAT-Idaho) warned us about:

Frank Church warned us...

“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

Details: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3510598

I fear that is right, rhett o rick. They won't give up without a fight, prolly to the last bullet, just like their fascist forebear, Adolf.

[annabanana]

2. the cost of not having been eternally vigilant. . . . . . n/t

[Octafish]

4. The Founders would be ashamed to see what passes for patriotism today.

The flag lapel pins would be, IMFO, the least of their concerns...

NSA Monitoring Web Activities of All Americans

Posted on July 31, 2011 by tech jobs

According to a former AT&T Employee Mark Klein, the National Security Agency is monitoring and data mining all domestic and international web traffic in and out of the United States. Mr. Klein was the whistleblower behind the AT&T and NSA eavesdropping scandal in which the NSA was receiving copies of all the data that was passing through AT&Ts San Francisco switching center including e-mails, web traffic, and phone calls. This was not limited to AT&T customers only, instead it included all data that went through the switching center regardless of the source.

When the scandal first broke, spokesmen for the government and AT&T stated that the splitters were only copying communications that were relevant to national security interests like communication between terrorists, suspected terrorists, and dangerous foreign nationals. According to Mr. Klein – a network technician who worked at the switching center – the technology in place to copy and split the data were incapable of doing any filtering and simply copied everything that was routed through the facility. He said, “The splitter device has no selective capability, it just copies everything. We’re talking about domestic traffic, as well as international traffic, and that’s what got me upset to begin with.”

What was actually taking place in the secure room through which the data was being routed has yet to be discovered. The government has not explained what it was doing; however, the equipment in the room included highly specialized data-mining equipment including Narus STA 6400, which is designed to analyze billions of internet communications per second.

The domestic spying program began shortly after 9/11 by President Bush and was expanded under authority the administration considered to exist within the patriot act. This allegedly allowed the government to monitor phone calls and e-mails of millions of U.S. citizens without a warrant. The vast majority of legal scholars agree that there was no legal standing for the warrantless monitoring of American citizens, including Jonathan Turley, a law profession at George Washington University. Multiple class action lawsuits have been filed against both AT&T and the United States government since the program was first uncovered in December 2005. The Electronic Frontier Foundation filed the latest lawsuit solely against the federal government in September 2008.

CONTINUED...

http://techjobs.com/resources/tech-news/nsa-monitoring-web-activities-of-all-americans/

The technology exists to classify each citizen by political perspective, based on their intercepted communications. And unlike 1939, it wouldn't take an IBM punchcard to tell who to load into the boxcars.

[suffragette]

5. "secret legal interpretation" of a law

Bad enough regarding any law; doubly problematic with something like the Patriot Law.

This is the state of our State.

K&R

[Octafish]

7. Incredible and True...

USA PATRIOT Act Analyses

http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=ifissues&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=76286

Almost alone, the librarians have kept the torches burning -- the lights of truth, justice and liberty.

[Overseas]

9. K&R

Thanks to the Librarians, ACLU and CCR and others less naive than I was.

I really thought we would restore civil liberties in the USA.

[suffragette]

10. That's the truth - librarians have been very courageous to stand up for people's rights

and to refuse to be gagged into silence.

[Jackpine Radical]

6. I think the Occupiers have the answer:

"Screw us & we multiply."

The one thing no tyranny can take is for a majority uprising. There aren't enough KBR camps for all of us, and if they try to kill us off they will find that all their money will not buy them anything because there will be nobody to produce it for them.

[Octafish]

12. It would, IMO, become an army of singletons.

If a community peacefully gathers and is met with violence, as with the OWS protesters in many communities last month, what would the authorities do to an angry mob? It'd be like that movie scene in "Blue Thunder" where the cops in the helicopter are ordered to fire mini-guns into the crowd. While many would refuse an illegal order, many others would say "Yes, sir" or "Yes, ma'am."



Without the ability to organize, what Frank Church warned us about in 1976, We the People (or survivors) wouldn't stand a chance against the camp directors and their hired and heavily armed goons. How these KBR guys operate and what they have in mind was made public during Iran-Contra:

REAGAN AIDES AND THE 'SECRET' GOVERNMENT

http://slaverevoltradio.blogspot.com/2006/09/reagan-aides-and-secret-government.html


Updated for the 21st century:

Are you one of the 8 million Americans listed in Main Core? This is the 21st century Rex 84!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3310871


PS: Please count me as one standing up to those un-American bastards working to dismantle the Constitution, Jackpine Radical. It's an NGU thing. I believe you are a combat veteran, so you know there's a better chance that it wouldn't be "Blue Thunder"; they'd be like the platoon out of "Stripes" riding around in an "Urban Assault Vehicle."

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Have you seen Chenoweth & Stephan on nonviolent resistance?

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Civil-Resistance-Works-Nonviolent/dp/0231156820/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1325608176&sr=8-9


For more than a century, from 1900 to 2006, campaigns of nonviolent resistance were more than twice as effective as their violent counterparts in achieving their stated goals. By attracting impressive support from citizens, whose activism takes the form of protests, boycotts, civil disobedience, and other forms of nonviolent noncooperation, these efforts help separate regimes from their main sources of power and produce remarkable results, even in Iran, Burma, the Philippines, and the Palestinian Territories.

Combining statistical analysis with case studies of specific countries and territories, Erica Chenoweth and Maria J. Stephan detail the factors enabling such campaigns to succeed and, sometimes, causing them to fail. They find that nonviolent resistance presents fewer obstacles to moral and physical involvement and commitment, and that higher levels of participation contribute to enhanced resilience, greater opportunities for tactical innovation and civic disruption (and therefore less incentive for a regime to maintain its status quo), and shifts in loyalty among opponents' erstwhile supporters, including members of the military establishment.

Chenoweth and Stephan conclude that successful nonviolent resistance ushers in more durable and internally peaceful democracies, which are less likely to regress into civil war. Presenting a rich, evidentiary argument, they originally and systematically compare violent and nonviolent outcomes in different historical periods and geographical contexts, debunking the myth that violence occurs because of structural and environmental factors and that it is necessary to achieve certain political goals. Instead, the authors discover, violent insurgency is rarely justifiable on strategic grounds.

[Octafish]

16. Thank you. Chenoweth and Stephan's work is at the top of my Amazon wish list...

"Why Civil Resistance Works: The Strategic Logic of Nonviolent Conflict (Columbia Studies in Terrorism and Irregular Warfare)"

By nature, I'm a pacifist. Instinctively, I'm mad as hell at what they've done. Personally, I vow to do all I can to fight these traitors, warmongers, mass murderers and gangsters with the weapon they fear most: the truth. I look forward to adding Dr. Chenoweth and Dr. Stephan's work to my armamentarium.

[noise]

19. One key aspect of this is the highly authoritarian notion

that good faith conduct by government officials is a given. Their patriotism is not up for review. They don't have to account for their conduct.

For example look at the Bush years. We are told that the Bush administration implemented a good faith last resort torture program. For some reason the public is supposed to believe this sort of nonsense.

Another good example is the use of secret panels. For some reason the public is supposed to believe that it makes sense for a secret panel to discuss secret evidence in order to determine if someone should be assassinated or indefinitely detained.

[Jackpine Radical]

26. Yup.

That is always the game--limit the range of admissible questions.

[Overseas]

8. K&R.

[Octafish]

17. The Road to the NDAA

The Indefinite Detention of American Citizens and Other Assaults on Civil Liberties

by JOANNE MARINER
CounterPunch
January 03, 2012

EXCERPT...

A fair reading of the new law would acknowledge a couple of basic points.

First, the NDAA at minimum reinforces and strengthens governmental authority to hold indefinitely terrorist suspects arrested outside of the United States, including American citizens arrested outside of the United States. By giving the practice an explicit statutory grounding—and one that is broadly worded—the NDAA makes the practice of indefinite military detention less vulnerable to legal challenge. With two branches of government now firmly behind the practice of indefinite detention, the Supreme Court will be hesitant to strike down as unconstitutional even the most aggressive assertions of the detention power.

Second, the law puts great pressure on the president to rely more extensively on indefinite military detention and military commission trials. While it does not actually make military detention mandatory for any category of suspect, given the existence of waivers and other loopholes, it provides Congress with ample grounds for post-hoc criticism of the president’s every detention decision.

In a politically-charged situation like the Abdulmutallab case (the case of the so-called “underwear bomber”), the NDAA could make it much more difficult for the president to keep the suspect in the civilian justice system. Particularly if a terrorist attack were successful or close to successful, members of Congress would line up to appear on Fox News to assert that the NDAA’s provisions had been improperly applied.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/03/the-road-to-the-ndaa/

And so it goes.

[FirstLight]

11. bookmarked & K&R!!!!

even though in so doing, I will no doubt be incriminating myself.

The beginning of the end of our freedom was scooped up and passed along with the wave of 'patriotism' or whatever that came from the immediate FEARmongering from 9-11... and it will continue to be a source of control over us because as long as we are afraid of someone else and willing to give over that power to the 1% we are screwn. and now it is done. and it ain't gonna change without some serious shit hitting the fan.

i am personally wondering where our 'underground' internet is, because the current model is going to be shut down and we are looking at a country with internet rights as open as the middle east... which scares the crap out of me. if information and communication is controlled by govt (more so than it is now), we ARE in a fascist country, no denying it...

[Octafish]

18. Here's what Sen. Church couldn't mention in 1976, but was exposed by an honest ally in 1999...

Echelon spy network revealed

By Andrew Bomford of BBC Radio 4's PM programme

Imagine a global spying network that can eavesdrop on every single phone call, fax or e-mail, anywhere on the planet.

It sounds like science fiction, but it's true.

SNIP...

Linked to the NSA

SNIP...

The base is linked directly to the headquarters of the US National Security Agency (NSA) at Fort Mead in Maryland, and it is also linked to a series of other listening posts scattered across the world, like Britain's own GCHQ.

The power of the network, codenamed Echelon, is astounding.

Every international telephone call, fax, e-mail, or radio transmission can be listened to by powerful computers capable of voice recognition. They home in on a long list of key words, or patterns of messages. They are looking for evidence of international crime, like terrorism.

CONTINUED...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/503224.stm

Now THAT was before 9-11, USA PATRIOT Act, or NDAA.

[Huey P. Long]

14. up

[Octafish]

20. I LOVE projected images.

So does CIA. Jacques Vallee in "Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact" described a plan to project an image of Jesus Christ onto the clouds over Cuba using a laser-equipped sub. The idea behind the Nixon-era trick was to create a religious apparition in order to cause a panic among the Cuban people that would topple the government and depose The Beard. Nice.

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. There is only hope

Because its still possible in the future.

[Octafish]

27. Four Letters

A.C.L.U.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/NDAA

Unfortunately, the final arbiter of all this will be the Supreme Court, currently headed by a little-known Iran-Contra coverup artiste:

John Roberts "lawyered" the Iran-Contra Scandal

http://www.democrats.com/roberts-iran-contra

[MilesColtrane]

21. NADA = National Automobile Dealers Association

NDAA = National Defense Authorization Act

You may want to change that. Getting obvious details wrong doesn't help the credibility of the one making an assertion.

[Octafish]

22. Thanks, MilesColtrane.

I hate making a dumb mistake.

So. What are your thoughts on the erosion of civil liberties?

[MilesColtrane]

24. I'm generally against them.

[Octafish]

30. FYI: 20 Ways the Obama Administration Has Intruded on Your Rights

By Bill Quigley, AlterNet
Posted on November 30, 2011, Printed on December 9, 2011

The Obama administration has affirmed, continued and expanded almost all of the draconian domestic civil liberties intrusions pioneered under the Bush administration. Here are twenty examples of serious assaults on the domestic rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, the right to privacy, the right to a fair trial, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience that have occurred since the Obama administration has assumed power. Consider these and then decide if there is any fundamental difference between the Bush presidency and the Obama presidency in the area of domestic civil liberties.

Patriot Act

On May 27, 2011, President Obama, over widespread bipartisan objections, approved a Congressional four year extension of controversial parts of the Patriot Act that were set to expire. In March of 2010, Obama signed a similar extension of the Patriot Act for one year. These provisions allow the government, with permission from a special secret court, to seize records without the owner’s knowledge, conduct secret surveillance of suspicious people who have no known ties to terrorist groups and to obtain secret roving wiretaps on people.

Criminalization of Dissent and Militarization of the Police

Anyone who has gone to a peace or justice protest in recent years has seen it – local police have been turned into SWAT teams, and SWAT teams into heavily armored military. Officer Friendly or even Officer Unfriendly has given way to police uniformed like soldiers with SWAT shields, shin guards, heavy vests, military helmets, visors, and vastly increased firepower. Protest police sport ninja turtle-like outfits and are accompanied by helicopters, special tanks, and even sound blasting vehicles first used in Iraq. Wireless fingerprint scanners first used by troops in Iraq are now being utilized by local police departments to check motorists. Facial recognition software introduced in war zones is now being used in Arizona and other jurisdictions. Drones just like the ones used in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan are being used along the Mexican and Canadian borders. These activities continue to expand under the Obama administration.

SNIP...

Use of “State Secrets” to Shield Government and Others from review

When the Bush government was caught hiring private planes from a Boeing subsidiary to transport people for torture to other countries, the Bush administration successfully asked the federal trial court to dismiss a case by detainees tortured because having a trial would disclose “state secrets” and threaten national security. When President Obama was elected, the state secrets defense was reaffirmed in arguments before a federal appeals court. It continues to be a mainstay of the Obama administration effort to cloak their actions and the actions of the Bush administration in secrecy.

In another case, it became clear in 2005 that the Bush FBI was avoiding the Fourth Amendment requirement to seek judicial warrants to get telephone and internet records by going directly to the phone companies and asking for the records. The government and the companies, among other methods of surveillance, set up secret rooms where phone and internet traffic could be monitored. In 2008, the government granted the companies amnesty for violating the privacy rights of their customers. Customers sued anyway. But the Obama administration successfully argued to the district court, among other defenses, that disclosure would expose state secrets and should be dismissed. The case is now on appeal.

CONTINUED...

http://www.alternet.org/story/153283 /

Hope this article helps.

[MilesColtrane]

31. Hey, I'm a regular here.

Believe me, I've seen plenty of lists before.

[lonestarnot]

23. Please keep reminding me.

I forget daily and continue to carry on without dwelling on it not knowing what to really do about it but for get my passport renewed.

[Octafish]

28. Poppy Bush Takes Charge: The Uses of 'Counter-Terrorism'

From Christopher Simpson, info on how Poppy started the big ball of wax when he pried control out of the bed-ridden Pruneface:

George Bush Takes Charge: The Uses of "Counter-Terrorism"

By Christopher Simpson
Covert Action Quarterly 58

A paper trail of declassified documents from the Reagan‑Bush era yields valuable information on how counter‑terrorism provided a powerful mechanism for solidifying Bush's power base and launching a broad range of national security initiatives.

During the Reagan years, George Bush used "crisis management" and "counter‑terrorism" as vehicles for running key parts of the clandestine side of the US government.

Bush proved especially adept at plausible denial. Some measure of his skill in avoiding responsibility can be taken from the fact that even after the Iran‑Contra affair blew the Reagan administration apart, Bush went on to become the "foreign policy president," while CIA Director William Casey, by then conveniently dead, took most of the blame for a number of covert foreign policy debacles that Bush had set in motion.

The trail of National Security Decision Directives (NSDDS) left by the Reagan administration begins to tell the story. True, much remains classified, and still more was never committed to paper in the first place. Even so, the main picture is clear: As vice president, George Bush was at the center of secret wars, political murders, and America's convoluted oil politics in the Middle East.

SNIP...

Reagan and the NSC also used NSDDs to settle conflicts among security agencies over bureaucratic turf and lines of command. It is through that prism that we see the first glimmers of Vice President Bush's role in clandestine operations during the 1980s.

CONTINUED...

http://books.google.com/books?id=YZqRyj_QXf8C&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=christopher+simpson+The+Uses+of+%E2%80%98Counter-Terrorism%E2%80%99&source=bl&ots=8klB0PzATX&sig=hi9DpE3qF43Oefh7iGn79W4jXQs&hl=en&ei=zAFQTeriBsr2gAfu1Mgc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=christopher%20simpson%20The%20Uses%20of%20%E2%80%98Counter-Terrorism%E2%80%99&f=false

I hear ya, lonestarnot. Gangster times would be a picnic compared to what these are become.

[unkachuck]

25. K&R....n/t

[Octafish]

29. Bill of Rights Defense Committee

Thanks, unkachuck!

For those who want to stay informed on the USA PATRIOT Act:

http://www.bordc.org/

[unkachuck]

34. you are very welcome, Octafish....n/t

[T S Justly]

32. K&R (nt)

[ronnie624]

33. Good thread with lots of interesting links.

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2012, 11:25 AM - Edit history (1)

For some reason, those who unwittingly cheer the destruction of our civil liberties, rarely post in threads like this one.