christians who use the bible to oppose gay marriage are bigots

[rdking647]

You are not being called a bigot because of your faith. You are being called a bigot because of your own personal interpretation of that faith.
Many Christians don’t interpret the bible to mean that God con
demns homosexuality. You have CHOSEN to interpret it that way. You have CHOSEN to select ONE single passage in Leviticus and take a stand on it. You have CHOSEN to ignore the rest of Leviticus. I don’t see you trying to keep people that are divorced from marrying again. I don’t see you lining up to support companies that support stoning women that get married after losing their virginity. Yet, you have chosen to interpret your faith against homosexuals. This makes you a bigot.

Many Christians aren’t bigots. They interpret their faith an entirely different way. Many straight Christians don’t condemn homosexuality. Many straight Christians follow the teachings of Jesus who never mentioned homosexuality at all. They recognize Leviticus for what it is: old Jewish law that bans many things that are not relevant to a modern world. They don’t pick and choose which passages mean something to them and which ones don’t in the Old Testament. They don’t harp on passages of the Old Testament that suit them and ignore the ones that inconvenience them.

You have chosen to interpret your faith in a way that marginalizes and discriminates against a group of people while ignoring others mentioned in the same text. You may say, “well, I don’t agree with divorce either”..which is fine..but..you aren’t voting to prohibit divorced people from marrying again or supporting groups that are advocating such causes.

Because you have chosen to interpret your faith this way while MILLIONS over other Christians interpret it an entirely different way makes you a bigot by definition.
In addition, you can CHOOSE to interpret history any way you want, but the fact remains that this is a SECULAR and CIVIL society, not a religious one. Everyone in the U.S. is offered the chance to practice their own religion, but when you interpret that to mean that your faith compels you to influence civil affairs and attempt to hurt other people and make them unhappy…sadly, you are a bigot.

I am fortunate to know many Christians that SEPARATE CHURCH FROM HATE. Try it.

[CoffeeCat]

3. I've heard nothing but the opposite

Can you please site your sources on this "economic forecasting" and could you explain further?

Are you saying that poor short-term economic indicators could hurt Obama's chances? Or do you have specific polls that show Obama is behind?

I'm curious, because most indicators that I've seen (electoral college standings, polls in close states) show an overwhelming advantage for Obama. It's at the point that I'm not even worried, as I certainly have been in the past several presidential elections.

[roguevalley]

11. awesome OP. Thank you. I can't agree more.

[Curtland1015]

4. BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

[fascisthunter]

5. why are Republicans so fucking dumb

dishonest and sociopathic? What good does it do in the end?

[lunatica]

6. Dumb ass ignorant pathetic comment

[99Forever]

2. Discrimination is..

.. bigotry is prejudice is willful hatred, when aimed at anyone, simply for being who they are. That is the essence of being a bigot. That it is promoted by people claiming to "speak for god" is nothing new and raises the scale of just how evil it is.

"Christians" that stand back and smugly pretend that "well, it isn't me doing it, so I am good" instead of pushing back and speaking out against it are a huge part of the problem. Unless you people make it known, as loudly and often as your sickening fellow 'christian' bigots, that their message is wrong and UNChristian, you will be seen as agreeing. They say they speak for you and if you don't step up and SCREAM "No you don't!" with credibility, that is what will be believed.

Remember this:


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[Bluerthanblue]

14. if you judge 'christ'ians in a lump it is also bigotry-

I cannot and do not in any way defend the way so MANY vocal- ugly- hate and fear based individuals use religion to justify their own personal bigotry- but I can't judge all who claim a belief in Christ by the individuals as those who are hate filled.

Bigotry is judging someone not on WHO they are as an individual - the sum total of that person - but based on one aspect of their entitiy which you then decide makes them less than you. Less than ok, less than acceptable.

I understand your point- but as someone who has screamed as loud as I can, and who continues to scream at the religious fundementalists who have co-opted the message of peace, love and compassion for one another that I believe is the heart of Christ's life and message to the world- I think it is important to not judge people by the actions of any 'group' they may appear to fit into.

[99Forever]

17. Nowhere did I say...

.. I was "judging Christians," I was talking about how Christians are perceived in general.

Sorry to hear that you are discouraged that you need to continue scream at the fundies, but until you put them in their place (with the other bigots, racists, misogynists, assorted hate ministers, and other low-lifers) that perception won't change. They damn sure don't give a crap about what we 'gawdless' atheists say. Is it "fair" to judge all Christians by the action of the loudest and most vile among you? Nope, but it still happens.

If you want that perception changed, folks like you are the only ones that can do it. It won't be easy and the struggle won't probably ever end. There is evil in your ranks and it gets more press than those that oppose it. That is the reality you need to change.

I truly wish you all of the best in getting it done.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. I stand by what I said-

It's bigotry to judge people by group affiliation.

It is wrong to do it in ANY group. I try hard not to do it. We like to clump people together into us/them but it is wrong. That's my point.

Telling 'christ'ians that they will be judged as haters because of the most vocal and outrageous among them, and saying it is their "job" to silence and change the way the 'group' is percieved or portrayed by the media is wrong.

Just as judging any group based on the worst elements it contains, and demanding that all other members of that group silence and change the perception which others has of it is wrong.

We shouldn't pre-judge- anyone. Not even republicans. Accept a person as who they are, get to know them, like them or dis-like them based on who they are, not their affiliation. Because someone identifies them self as a ___________ shouldn't mean they are automatically ok, or terrible- who 99Forever is as an individual, what you think, say and do is important, not your affiliation to any 'group' or 'genre'.

we are all connected, and when we find the places we have in common and build on them everyone benefits imo.

[99Forever]

24. We seem to be talking past each other.

I plead lack of sleep, two sick dogs last night. I wasn't clear that by "you" I meant the general, not the personal. My apologies.

I'm hard pressed to figure out who's "job" it is to work to negate the ugly side of any group or organization some of it's members present to the public, if it isn't that group or organization. If there is another way to get there, I'd love to hear it.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. I think you are right

and sorry to hear about your dogs. Hope they are better today and that you get a chance to get some rest. No need to apologize.

I do understand what you are saying. I no longer choose to identify myself by the label of 'christ'ian, because of the perception of the media, and our society in general. The homophobia, self-centered and self-rightous attitude that is so often associated with those who claim to follow Jesus, but whose individual lives speak otherwise is something I just can't make the choice to claim ....'kinship' with?? I've made the choice to disassociate myself from the group but know that there are many who haven't made this choice who are as disturbed, frustrated, and saddened as I am by the voices and actions that have come to represent the face of "christ'ianity'.

I find it more offensive for people to hide their own hate- (and that is what it is despite what anyone may claim.. an irrational dislike) behind religion. Behind something which is supposedly an authority that no one can question or confront. It is cowardly imo. Better to own the emotion, and face the discomfort you will feel when challenged about your position than try and hide behind something which you claim to be beyond 'human' but which is only verifiable by pointing to objects or words of 'humans'.

I'm doing a lot of soul searching lately. I think in answer to your question of how to negate the public perception of ugly side of any organization is in doing just what the OP did, and what you and I are doing. Speaking for ourselves, and speaking against the accepted or predominant ...'view'. ? One on one, person to person, there is much that we have in common. Even people we think are total assholes.... if are able to find places to connect and build on them, we have a chance to move forward. We may not succeed, but we will have done what we personally can to make the world a little better....

...sorry to ramble and that I'm not able to say things better with fewer words.

thanks for listening ~wishing you well.

[99Forever]

30. All I can say in reply is:

Common ground is a VERY good thing.

[bl968]

7. The bible lets us adjust things when needed...

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[Freddie]

13. Thank you, from a Christian

The Jesus that I know does not hate anyone, and will not turn anyone away from His table.
Hate in the name of Christ is ths most despicable hate of all.

[CoffeeCat]

8. I would like to thank you

for writing an incredibly cogent and beautiful piece that speaks to the heart of the Chick-Fil-A nightmare.

Religious bigotry is at the center of this controversy. In particular, selective Bible-verse cherry picking is being used to celebrate institutionalized discrimination. I can't tell you how revolted and angered I've been all week watching these fools flock to the malls with no shame--for the cause of bigotry.

You laid out so succinctly why this is religious hypocrisy and bigots plucking a verse or two and running with them--while completely ignoring the fact that so many surrounding Bible verses are categorically wrong, bizarre and not followed by these people. This is the point that needs to be made to these yahoos!!!

Leviticus also promotes and demands slavery, "slaves must submit to their slave masters.". There's also verses requiring a woman to marry a man who has raped her.

I'd like to look all if these hypocrites and haters in the face and ask them, "How in the world do you justify following some of this and not all of it? And how in the world can you accept that this is the infallible word of God when clearly many passages are so outrageously wrong that NO ONE can believe them?" I'd love answers!!

This week has been disheartening. I'm not gay but I weep for my brothers and sisters who have to watch theses trolls, as they wag their greasy fingers at people and proudly display their hatred and ignorance.

Thank you for laying out the truth so well. This deserves to be at the top of the Greatest Page.

[yardwork]

10. I agree. Excellent response to an excellent OP. Kicked and recced.

[mnhtnbb]

23. Wow. Well said. Thank you. Hubby has some Georgia relatives

who participated in the Chick Fil A eating frenzy this week...and we
have two gay sons.

[chervilant]

9. Thank you for this post.

I am actively anti-heterosexist and anti-racist almost daily in the ultra-conservative community in which I currently find myself. I hope you don't mind if I use your post in my efforts to encourage the local bigots to understand:

GLBT individuals have always been and will always be members of our species.

GLBT individuals should have all the rights available to all the heterosexual members of our species.

It hurts my heart to see all the fear- and hate-mongering promulgated by bigots...

[abelenkpe]

12. K&R nt

[Bluerthanblue]

15. beautifully said ~

and thoughtfully presented. Thank you for taking the time to share this with us all.

K&R

[liberallibral]

16. Incorrect

Oh stop it. Believing in traditional marriage isn't hate. It's their religious belief, and we should be the tolerant ones on THIS side... Just like I expect everyone to be tolerant of my liberal beliefs!

I am not a Christian (a deist, actually), and I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I don't believe my friends that are Christians are hateful in any way.

Sure, some fanatics 'hate' gays and they're obviously ignorant fools, like the Westboro Baptist nutballs - but most Christians simply believe marriage should be between a man and a woman. Big deal... Why can't so many seem to tolerate beliefs that they do not agree with?

[Bluerthanblue]

18. people who point to the bible to say that a group of people are LESS THAN EQUAL

are bigots-

And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, there is quite a bit of ugly, deep seated hatred that goes along with the mind-set of homophobia. If 'christ'ians choose to interpret their version of the bible to make it say that there is something wrong with loving someone of the same sex, that is their choice.

When they publicly condemn, threaten, demean, and lobby for laws which do not allow people to live their lives as they see fit, depriving a select group of their equal rights under the law, it goes FAR beyond their right to their belief, and into an oppressive, hatebased bigotry.

No one is saying people who identify themself as a "christ'ian can't believe what ever they choose, as long as they realize they cannot, and should not control the rights of others to live their life without harassment or having their equal rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Rozlee]

19. Those beliefs are harmful when they lead to

taking away the civil rights of others. Gays and persons who are LGBT are not allowed to marry and have the same rights as spouses. They're given second class citizenship in our society and not allowed adoption rights in many places. People who cling to those antiquated beliefs should indeed be allowed to do so. But, they have no right to use their beliefs to infringe on the Constitutional--the human --rights of others. There was a time when they considered my mixed marriage and my biracial children an "abomination" because their bible told them so. Many probably still do. It wasn't until the 50's that blacks and whites could even marry in this country. Their beliefs are sickening when they include trampling the civil rights of others.

[skepticscott]

21. All Christians cherry-pick

They all decide based on their own personal standards and what they've been spoon-fed which Bible passages they are going to believe in and adhere to, and which they are going to ignore. There is NO objective standard for you to say that your choices and your interpretation are any closer to what "god" really wants than anyone else's. To presume otherwise is merely to prove the point that people's "god" tends to resemble themselves very closely. "Faith", Christianity and the Bible are totally unnecessary as guides for proper behavior, and in many cases, downright destructive.

[customerserviceguy]

26. Bingo

The fact is, the Bible says all kinds of hateful, hurtful things, and people who choose to tiptoe around those words are simply hypocrites.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. the life of Jesus isn't only contained in the 'bible'

and there is a difference between the idea of following the teachings of Jesus versus using a book which has it's origin in the hands of many humans and is interpreted in lots of different ways by different people.

Personally I think it is wrong to call fundamentalist, "bible believing" people "Christ"ians. I also think it's kind of odd to talk about having "a personal relationship with Christ" while judging others as 'unbelievers'/ 'sinners'/ heathens, and justifying treating them poorly.

It's funny that you say that people's "God" tends to resembles who they are... that is exactly the opposite of what draws me to, and surprises me about Jesus' life and teaching... He did and encourages us to do the opposite of what our instincts tells us. When we are hurt, instead of hurting back, we're encouraged to return kindness- we are told to hold onto "things" lightly- to not focus our lives on accumulating money or stuff. told that it isn't important to be famous, or to seek out public praise, but to do what we can to make others lives better quietly not expecting thanks or admiration, we are told that being greedy- even if we "earned" what we have isn't something we should aspire towards. That an eye for an eye is wrong. I could go on, but I'm sure you get where I'm going.

Jesus isn't the only religious leader to teach us to go against our 'nature'- there are many others. If everyone actually embraced this kind of thinking imagine how different the world would be. Logic and objective thinking would say this is impossible. Hope and 'faith' say perhaps not- if we say it is impossible and don't even try, then we are fulfilling our own prophesy. no?

[Irishonly]

22. I had one thought when I read the title

It was something like No Shit.

[lindysalsagal]

27. If I had a nickel for every "pro-life" iraq war supporter

I could afford to start my own church, but it would look alot like Buddhism...

[phleshdef]

28. I just tell these people that using the legislative process to force their faith on others...

...is a violation of the concept of freewill.

I just go along with their assertion that the bible condemns homosexuality and point out that it doesn't tell them to use the law to force people to live a christian lifestyle.

[Nye Bevan]

31. Not just Christians.

Scholars of Islam, such as Sheikh ul-Islam Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi amongst others, ruled that Islam disallowed homosexual activity and ordained capital punishment for a person guilty of it.[1] Homosexual activity is a crime and forbidden in most Muslim-majority countries. In the Islamic regimes of Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, North Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity is punished with the death penalty. In Nigeria and Somalia the death penalty is issued in some regions.[2] The legal punishment for sodomy has varied among juristic schools: some prescribe capital punishment; while other prescribe a milder discretionary punishment such as imprisonment. In some relatively secular Muslim-majority countries such as Indonesia,[3] Jordan and Turkey this is not the case; and there are no specific civil laws against homosexual practice.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

[On the Road]

32. Imputing Motives is Always Dangerous,

and tends to be a technique that rabble-rousers rely on. So is the argument that "opinions differ," with the implication being that someone is at fault if the one they hold is not the same as the rest of the tribe. That means of dialogue is not worthy of the seriousness of the issue or the nuance and complexity of Christian history.

It is certainly true that some people have talked themselves into reconciling the Bible with homosexuality. There are some interesting attempts to do this, and they may seem compelling if they are new to you. But all of them that I've seen are casuistic, and none show much knowledge of the history of Judaism or Christianity. They are attempts to shoehorn a desired doctrine into a system that is fundamentally incompatible.

No one who understands the culture or surrounding documents could possibly think Jesus, Paul, or any of the Old Testament figures would have condoned an active homosexual relationship. There is absolutely nothing in the record to support this. This is not the same as hating, supporting discriminatory laws, or being a bigot.

There is indeed a serious disconnect between the current climate of acceptance of gay people and the historical doctrines of Christianity. People have various ways of dealing with this incompatibility, just as they do in every other area.

Bigots certainly exist and use the church as a shield for their bigotry. But it does not follow that any Christian who thinks of gay sex as a sin is being intellectually dishonest. In this case, the shoe's on the other foot.

[Thinkingabout]

33. If Jesus was the owner of Chick-fil-a, would he say the same thing?

For all who continue to complain about the lack of prayer in our schools do they think this has caused the owner to make his statement. I know I will never be as great as Jesus but he did guide and shoe his way of doing things and that is what I strive to do everyday. Ask yourself "What would Jesus do" and see if it is the same answer.

[Butterbean]

34. Yanno....one thing I've NEVER seen in these type discussions

---warning, I'm gonna get religious here for a minute---
is the mention that Christ's death is supposed to have nullified all laws in the Old Testament, or at least the being condemned to hell for breaking such laws. Effectively (this is what my church teaches, anyway...I forget what Bible verse, I'll have to go back and find that sermon), the Old Testament is supposed to be the way things were before Christ's death, before sins were paid for by his death, and therefore the "laws" laid down in the Old Testament are not supposed to condemn you to hell if you break them, because of his death.

I'll have to find that Bible verse. It's right there, in the book, in black and white, plainly stated. Why so many Christians skirt around that issue is beyond me. That right there shuts down their "going to hell" assertion (if you believe in hell, which I recognize not everybody does).

Anyway, I'm a Christian, and I support equal rights for all my LGBTQ brothers and sisters. One of my lesbian friends is an ordained Episcopal priest. The Westboro folks would probably collectively have a stroke if they ever met her in person.

[Snarkoleptic]

35. I like to throw this graphic down when wingnut fundie x-tians (not saying they all are) spew hate.

It provokes some interesting blogging.