This will likely piss off a few of you.

[Atticus]

I think posts discussing abandoning the US and moving to another country SUCK "bigly". Aside from the unpatriotic aspect, do you realize how selfish and elitist these posts seem to the 40% who can't come up with $400 in an emergency? They can't afford to move across the street, let alone go another country!

So, if you can't be bothered to fight for OUR nation's survival, go ahead and jump ship. Just STFU about it.

[ret5hd]

1. I think that most that consider it will, after doing research, be surprised...

at how few places are available to them. Well, places they want to go, anyway.

They will find they are stuck here with the rest of us.

[leftofcool]

76. Truthfully, other countries don't want us.

Panama is about the only country that actively recruits ex pats

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

178. Panama would be a definite consideration if I could afford it.

[still_one]

96. unless they have sufficient means, or a relative that will sponsper them, most will find it

impossible. It is just an expression of frustration by everything that is happening

[Beartracks]

99. What if a company hires you?

Just curious.

========

[still_one]

100. Sure, if you have a company sponser, but that is filtered demographic with a specific skill set

[JustAnotherGen]

111. +1

I have dual citizenship due to my husband. We own property and my husband is a silent partner in his older brother's business. My family I could bring over - just from having 'beds ready' on the go and jobs.

It is going to get very difficult very soon for Americans to just bolt to Europe.

We are building a pop home in Costa Rica - and we are running into issues with long term visas - and those are through our Italian passports - not my US. My husband isn't a US citizen.

It's not as easy to just 'move' to another country as people think. It took me five years to be eligible for the health insurance program over there.

[Wounded Bear]

2. Can't argue with that...nt

[Generic Other]

3. I hope it gets bad enough all the GOP assholes move

Then things can get better.

[awesomerwb1]

11. Move where?

Where else will they get to play with guns anywhere, listen to Limbaugh, watch Fux views, get government checks.

And then... become IMMIGRANTS themselves?

[Generic Other]

14. I was thinking of the elite ones

Let them move to Russia, NK, Saudi Arabia, Antarctica. Just get out of here.

"Just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
Don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free
Just slip out the back, Jack, make a new plan, Stan
Don't need to be coy, Roy, just listen to me
Hop on the bus, Gus, don't need to discuss much..."

[wryter2000]

72. Trouble is

The elite GOPers are doing very well here. They're getting richer and are getting all their policies enacted. Sadly, they'll be happy to stay.

[Generic Other]

79. It makes no sense

A gated community is not freedom especially when angry, starving, rebels are standing on the other side.

[CrispyQ]

22. What will their take be when it's fellow US citizens who are the immigrants?

When climate change makes AZ & other southern states unbearable to live in for most of the year & the Colorado River dries up before it reaches those places, when people start migrating north, how will they be treated? Not very well, is my guess. We were never a melting pot, but rather a patchwork quilt.

The Waterknife, by Paolo Bacigalupi, was an interesting take on western/southwestern US future. There was quite a stigma attached to being a Texan.

[awesomerwb1]

28. We may not be a "melting pot" everywhere

especially in older cities - by "older" I mean age wise. In general, we're closer to being a melting pot than not.

My youngest nephew is 27. His best friends in a very tight group:

****ie: born in S Korea, graduated G Washington uni political science(I think), California girlfriend
M**e: Peruvian dad, Bostonian mom. Graduated computer science UCLA. His girlfriend, an RN, Malaysian parents
A****: iranian parents. Finance degree.
S** *: Jewish, mechanical Engineering degree
My nephew: environmental engineer degree. His girlfriend, RN, Filipino parents.
G******: Mexican dad, mom is from east coast. Electrical engineer. Fiance from Idaho.

Highly educated and extremely good kids all of them. Granted, it's Southern California, but if that isn't a melting pot.....

[Sophia4]

46. Absolutely Southern California, and before long to be all of America.

Good kids, all of them.

And we hear so little about all these wonderful young people.

[awesomerwb1]

71. I agree

I've spent a lot of time with those kids while growing up and they're all awesome, love them to bits.

You're so right, we don't hear enough about how these first generation "infesters" enrich our country.

The "they don't assimilate" rhetoric is BS. It's just hateful xenophobia.

[radius777]

130. Yes, millennials have a global perspective

that no other prior generation did: (1) they grew up where diversity was the norm (2) they came of age w/the internet which is fundamentally a global village (3) their tastes, interests, friends, dates, etc are not constrained by race/ethnicity or the borders of any particular country.

It's why populism, isolationism and nationalism will never work for the younger generations.

[SWBTATTReg]

57. We have this wonderful mix in St. Louis City (in Missouri) too. From Bosnia, Vietnam, ...

Taiwan, Korea, other eastern European countries, etc. It's wonderful, and I will tell you, that their eagerness and puppy love for this country has no boundaries and a sight to behold. Besides being former refugees, and/or going to the numerous schools here in St. Louis MO, they have moved into some areas of St. Louis MO (the city) and have remodeled and fixed up substantial parts of St. Louis City (Cherokee row, Grand (Vietnamese, Asians), Gravois (Bosnian community etc.). It's amazing to drive down the streets of these neighborhoods and see how clean they are. They are a big part of why the City of St. Louis MO has held up in big parts of the city. You'll see this too in other cities too, such as Chicago, etc.

This is why it kills me when I hear about so much hatred of immigrants on the news...I'll bet that these folks who pile on hate have probably never met an immigrant, let alone deal w/ one. These are people just like you or I, just wanting the same thing you or I want, a better life, a better home, etc.

[lark]

82. Possible even in the south.

My daughter is caucasian, her husband is Brazilian, their best friends are Italian, German, Peruvian and Columbian. They all live in No. FL.

[True Dough]

84. Good posts in this thread, awesomerwb1!

Yes, many immigrants are wonderful individuals. And, despite the current ugly administration and the focus of newscasts on intolerance toward newcomers to this country, there are many welcoming individuals in the U.S., the sort of people found here on the DU:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/25/americans-most-inclusive-attitude-to-immigrants-global-study-finds

It's mind boggling to read the article above in this current climate of hate-spewing Donny. While we have to stand up to his bigoted policies, we shouldn't overlook how a lot of Americans embrace immigrants.

[klook]

133. An asshole right-winger (but I'm repeating myself) whom I unfortunately know,

and who unfortunately married someone near and dear to me, threatened to move to Canada when Obama was re-elected!


I'm sure he would have enjoyed all the hockey on TV instead of college football and golf, French signage, and publicly funded health care!

[bdamomma]

44. I think those

GOP assholes will abandon ship they have the means to screw and leave the country they are that cowardly.

[Orsino]

191. They have insulated themselves from the consequences of their treason.

Money's good for that. GOP "leaders" are building the country they want US to live in, with a few little pockets for the ruling class to enjoy.

[ck4829]

4. We need to scrap the whole concept of patriotism. It's been completely parasitized.

And I can't afford that kind of thing either, but I'm happy for people who are leaving, it's good that they can escape the rising fascism. Go in peace is what I say.

[barbtries]

8. me too.

i wish i could. i wish i could get my children on board with the concept. their future to me is looking so grim.

[Mariana]

21. I agree with you.

How is it my responsibility to suffer and perhaps die under a regime that's bent on oppressing women, LGBT people, the sick and disabled, and religious minorities? Because I was born here? Fuck that. I didn't create the situation, I did everything in my power to prevent it, but here it is.

In my case, I do have a way out. My husband, children, and grandchildren are British citizens. I'm not, but I could go with them. The UK has its own problems, but sometimes you gotta pick the lesser evil. You better believe all our passports are kept up to date.

[elmac]

63. Just like an abusive relationship

there is a time when you must leave and move on. I have no love for this country nor the flag. I have felt that way since the Bush years. I was born and raised in the USA but countries can go very bad, just like people and I have no interest staying in an abusive relationship.

[Codeine]

139. For me patriotism exists only on the football pitch.

That shit ends at the touchline.

[shellyleit]

144. Patriotism is dumb

As a concept, it's totally outdated. We live in a global world, and everything affects everyone else. We need to think in terms of "planet". Tribalism is damaging to everyone, and that's all patriotism is.

[FSogol]

5. Applause!

[wasupaloopa]

6. I disagree. We all make decisions that are geared toward making our lives more enjoyable.

Some have more means than others and do better at it. There is never parity in the world.

[Hoyt]

7. Although I understand the emotions, a lot of things people threaten here crack me up and suck bigly.

99% of the time, it isn't going to help us or them.

[G_j]

9. No

Although I can no way afford to leave, and I have not posted or commmented on the subject. I’ll kindly ask that you not tell me to STFU!

[LeftInTX]

32. I can't afford to leave other. I would if I could

I can't even afford to move to a blue state.....Our house is paid for....We've got our grandkids here etc.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

179. Me too! It's embarrassing how far this country has fallen!

[LenaBaby61]

54. "I'll kindly ask that you not tell me to STFU!"

[Wwcd]

80. Thank you

[Honeycombe8]

90. yes.

[Honeycombe8]

91. +1. nt

[SergeStorms]

151. +1

No one but the Mods have the power to say what people can or can't write about. As of this post it's still a free country, but I'll check 'Latest Breaking News' to be sure.

If these posts irritate the OP and other people as well, don't read those posts! Simple as that. Telling people to STFU is rude.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

181. The nastiness of some here is unreal... what have we become?!

[anarch]

10. moreover, the damage that Putin's mobster oligarchs will inflict will be on a global scale

a "fight or flight" response to this horrible situation is understandable, but there's really no place to run to. We need to pull together and resist.

[RKP5637]

16. Eventually, the rest of the world will put the GOP back in their box. The world is getting

fed up with GOP shenanigans with the Trump cult. Also, the US is less than 4% of the world! If Trump keeps it up, the US is going to be severely hurt financially IMO as the rest of the world starts to go around the US, as is already happening.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

41. Here here.

We can do this. It always seems worse at the beginning. We are 2/3rds. Don't forget that. Good post.

[bentornilloed]

102. Really?

Where do you get that 2/3rds of the US is progressive? I've never seen it quoted that high?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

156. Yes. US is progressive liberal nation if remove gerrymandering, dirty tricks, & voter suppression.

[bentornilloed]

185. Even with gerrymandering, dirty tricks, & voter suppression, this progressive poll suggest otherwise

https://thinkprogress.org/new-poll-america-is-evenly-divided-between-progressives-liberals-and-conservatives-libertarians-fb9493d851f9/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

186. That's 9 years old. Doesn't square with other polling I've seen. For example, 67% non-conservative

And today there is this poll: 67% do not want to overturn Roe v Wade. That's 67% who are not conservative, since it is the hallmark of the conservative's position.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142097760

[madaboutharry]

12. I think most people don't really mean it.

I have actually lived in a foreign country and after a while I missed living in America. It is not as easy as some people think, especially when you are spending 5 hours a day in a classroom learning a new language, experiencing profound cultural differences even in "western" countries, and being away from all that is familiar. And unless you are working for an American/English language company or living in an English speaking country, you are not going to be able to work in the same kind of job you had here. The language barrier can take years before you are fluent enough to work in a high level position.

I think a lot of it is just talk and it isn't necessary to tell people to STFU. People are upset and overwhelmed and say things out of frustration. Right now it seems like we are losing our country to the most extreme fringe and that is scary. We need to remember that nothing stays the same and things change and that the way it is today is not the way it will always be.

[Upthevibe]

40. madaboutharry, Very well stated....

and thank you. If I feel that I need to have a "Plan B" to help me keep my sanity, I'm f'ing going to have a plan B! And the place where I can process that is here on DU! I understand the op's sentiment, but I'm going to do what I need to do to keep my sanity. No matter how unrealistic it may actually be for me to relocate.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

42. Good post.

[smirkymonkey]

50. +1000

Great post! Thank you. I would really like to go if I could afford it, but I can't. And it's a pipe dream. I would only want to go if I didn't have to earn a living, which means I would have to be independently wealthy and I am not.

I loved living in Europe as a student, but there were no cares or money worries and all we did was travel and have fun (and did a little bit of studying) but I know it wouldn't be like that if I actually had to go back and try to earn a living as an adult. I'm pretty sure it would suck.

My own personal life here is not bad (yet) but I hate seeing what is happening to this country and I have a lot of fear for the future.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

121. +1. n/t

[Blue_Adept]

13. Some people will be doing it because they'll die otherwise. So yeah, fuck 'em, right?

womp womp

[Crash2Parties]

159. Exactly right. Many families I know are LGBT &/or disabled &/or POC

Some will have all three strikes against them in the new America of God's Own Party, aka the RepubliKlan Party. In many states they are already treated as second class citizens; once another Justice is seated they will legally be such at the federal level. They have children who must be fed, clothed, housed & educated; why should they choose to bring them up in a "shithole," to use Trump's term?

[eallen]

15. Well, you're overlooking the real monkey wrench...

After another two years of Trump, California may decide to secede. And Trump might want that.

And if California goes...

[RKP5637]

20. I've always thought the US would divide into different regions. There are just too many

divisions today. Trump, has demonstrated the US can no longer be one country. Already, the US is split in regions based on beliefs and voting patterns.

[shanny]

33. So, the cities in one "region" and rural areas in another?

Because that's where the split is, for the most part. Blue (inhabited) islands in a sea of red empty counties.

[RKP5637]

48. I was thinking of this in terms of long term, spanning decades, and perhaps a restructuring of

government into more of a virtual model.

[shanny]

61. I agree that we are likely to have a restructuring of government after this.

It will either be really good or horrifically bad.

[Pepsidog]

74. Despartely need a constitutional convention and national referendums to address things such as

term limits for elected officials and court appointments, guns, voting rights, gerrymandering, electoral college etc. Our Constitution has survived this long but it needs amending to reflect where we are as a nation today. But because the minority in the country rule the majority, it will never happen.

[lunasun]

127. Republicans are pretty close to the numbers they need for a con con so they are on it

It takes two-thirds of state legislatures to begin a constitutional convention process.
That’s 34. The GOP controls 32.

[Pepsidog]

132. That's scary

[Upthevibe]

49. RKP5637....

I agree with you....

[bdamomma]

53. that is Putin's wish

to break us up. I think the rump cult has crossed over and proclaimed their allegiance not the country but to their POS. Sorry bunch of asses.

[Blue_Adept]

17. This will likely piss off a few of you.

I think posts discussing abandoning Guatemala and moving to another country SUCK "bigly". Aside from the unpatriotic aspect, do you realize how selfish and elitist these posts seem to the 90% who can't come up with $40 in an emergency? They can't afford to move across the street, let alone go another country!

So, if you can't be bothered to fight for OUR nation's survival, go ahead and jump ship. Just STFU about it.

[shanny]

34. Well done.

[treestar]

39. somewhat equivalent but things are a lot worse in Guatemala

much worse, so that saying that would not make sense. I suppose there is still hope for the US. Donald can be defeated in 2020. And the conservative justices will get old and have to resign someday. Thomas is 80, I read. The streets are still basically in order here; criminals are arrested and aren't stronger than the police. There are respected women's rights, maybe under threat, but savable and not likely to change to be as bad as it is in Guatamala soon.

[Blue_Adept]

43. The level of "a lot worse" is very subjective

And that's basically a position of privilege to be able to say that. There are a lot of people whose lives are already being threatened by what's going on and it's only going to go worse, and faster, because of events this week.

I'm an old white land-owning male. I can figure out a way to survive. I know a lot others who cannot and getting out may be their only option to actually survive.

[treestar]

95. Still - I don't think it is privilege

because Guatamala is truly a mess, worse than poor people here have it. Which is not to dismiss their plight. But there is freedom of speech, courts, ability to protest, there is something that can be done. It's not privileged to recognize how things could be way worse in some countries. It can be bad, but it's not Guatamala, Iraq, Rwanda. Nothing wrong with having some perspective.

[Atticus]

119. Uh huh, yup, that's the same situation fersure!

New to sarcasm?

[Blue_Adept]

18. This will likely piss off a few of you.

I think posts discussing abandoning Honduras and moving to another country SUCK "bigly". Aside from the unpatriotic aspect, do you realize how selfish and elitist these posts seem to the 90% who can't come up with $40 in an emergency? They can't afford to move across the street, let alone go another country!

So, if you can't be bothered to fight for OUR nation's survival, go ahead and jump ship. Just STFU about it.

[WhiteTara]

19. Besides, it's really too late for that.

We needed to have gone away when * stole the county in 2000. Where is there to go? The world is in turmoil and there is no safe place on earth left. We simply have to stand for our country and stay and fight. I'm all for a sit in at the mall until they go away.

[Mariana]

24. There never really were any safe places.

Some are more dangerous than others, that's all. The danger level here is rising for just about everyone except for straight white Christian men.

[WhiteTara]

25. I know Mariana

but I really wanted to see more of the world before it was completely trashed.

[Initech]

23. Amen! Fight or shut up! It's the patriotic thing to do!

[Saboburns]

26. I totally disagree

I live in Southern West Virginia. The Trumpiest of the Trumpiest. We lead the world in Rebel flags and camouflage. I am surrounded, FUCKING SURROUNDED, by Nazis.

There comes a day one must cease beating their own head against the wall.

And realize the majority in this area love what's going on and want more of it.

Yes one could move to a different part of America. But there comes a time to cease beating your head against solid objects.

[SMC22307]

112. Have you thought of moving?

I know people just can't pick up and go, but is it a possibility? I recently spent time in the beautiful mountains of SW VA and couldn't get back to my deep blue oasis fast enough because of poor, oppressed Trumpkins and their "don't tread on me" mentality. I was dragged to a seafood buffet and so many of the diners could have featured as the glutton in "Seven." Smoking. Obnoxious loud, smelly trucks and motorcycles. I sometimes think of RVing in retirement but if that's what it's like, no fucking way.

[Silver Gaia]

169. Come here!

I moved to California from rural red Tennessee 20 years ago, and have never regretted it. Not once. It's the first place I ever lived (and I've lived in many places across the US) where I felt like I belonged. Think about it...

[Corvo Bianco]

27. Leaving is discussed often between my sister and I.

We are both poor and are considering moving in together to save money for a few years. We would be dirt poor somewhere else. We don't even know the legalities, but God it's hard not to fantasize about getting away from a country you've never been proud of. Men in power we are not, so this place isn't really for us.

HOWEVER, I keep saying but... I can't leave until I vote in the midterms. Followed by... I can't leave until I vote in 2020.

It doesn't feel right to leave when our democracy is on the precipice of ruin. But at the same time I have no sense of patriotism for America. I want to help if I can, but it is for the people here. It is not for America.

[kacekwl]

29. Can't blame people wanting to

save themselves and families from living in a fascist state.

[NCTraveler]

30. The other day I mentioned how it has privilege written all over it.

And it does.

Try to keep those thoughts to myself.

[ck4829]

47. And I see privilege over the "Oh well... we'll just vote but that's it" ideology as well

There are people who say they want to resist Trump but they try to shame anyone who wants to do anything and everything unorthodox or that something that actually involves action. I remember being called an authoritarian fascist by someone here for merely agreeing with another person who is also here on the idea of calling Republican parties hate groups.

It seems to me like there are too many people who don't actually want to do work politically, no real action, it's just a debate, a game to them. This should be common knowledge by now, especially to us on DU.

I can tell there are people who don't have someone in their lives who has a rare disease and how much of a life his challenge will be because we have "the greatest healthcare system in the world" and stays up worrying about how that "greatest" healthcare system will not always be on his side especially as he gets older, or includes Muslims or transgender people in the circle of people they love. Maybe it goes both ways... for many of the people who are leaving, as well as the "There goes healthcare for the poor... oh well" crowd.

Voting is nice, but it's not going to defeat the fascists by itself. I'm not going anywhere for several reasons, but I can understand what people do when they feel as though are out of options.

[NCTraveler]

62. "seems to me like there are too many people who don't actually want to do work politically"

Absolutely nothing new about it.

I don't think privileged is putting skin in the game. Taking your cash and running is.

[Cha]

31. I say to each his/her own..

We have some expats here already for years. They still vote.

I wouldn't have the money to leave nor the inclination since all my family and friends are here.

[HAB911]

35. I think it will come down to moving to a Blue State

I'm considering it if we don't win back the governorship of FL, and Scott beats Nelson.

[Jake Stern]

36. So I have a patriotic duty

to see to it that my partner and our son suffer under a fascist regime because somebody isn't as lucky to have an out?

Talk about a perfect example of the crab mentality.

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality|

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

37. Listen up please.

We have been lucky to not have this strife in this country for 50 years. It's this generations turn to stand up for the country and make it better. These people are tin pot fricken cowards. DO NOT be fooled. When the streets are filled with people just walking and singing songs and chanting...they will know we mean business. We are 2/3s of this country. Take solace.
This site is open for anyone to see....remember that. Do not give ammo to the enemy. If you can't say something strong, please, don't bother bc it makes us all look like you. (whomever that is...no one in particular at this writing). Use DU mail and write to your friends privately until we get a handle on this.
It's going to be alright. But, nothing worth having is free. Put your big boy and big girl pants on and lets make an impact this weekend. 48 hours.
If watching a blow by blow on tv drives you to come here and make nervous ramblings...then turn it off.
We are only human beings. We get it. BE strong.
ps...People on cnn and msnbc get paid to hand wring and dither and turn up the tension. We get nothing but info. Tell yourself you will check the news at 5 or 6 pm and at 9pm, and call it a day.
Sound like a plan?

[NurseJackie]

38. Meh! I can't afford to leave either. Finding an extra $400 would be difficult for me too. BUT...

Just STFU about it.

Meh! I can't afford to leave either. Finding an extra $400 would be difficult for me too. BUT I really don't find it offensive or disheartening.

I don't begrudge their personal choices or their goals or their fantasies for finding a better life. To each his own. There will always be people who are more privileged that I am.

I think this is an overreaction. I'm not bitter when people share photos of their 10K once-in-a-lifetime round-the-world trips either. I say GOOD FOR THEM! and THANKS FOR SHARING!

[Exotica]

166. Great reply

[LeftInTX]

45. I can understand how people feel

I want to get up and move to Canada, but I don't think I'm eligible.

We could affordably retire in Mexico, but the building codes aren't the same. (No ADA complaint stuff - steep stairs etc) Doctors aren't the same. (Been with the same one for 30 years. Don't know what I would do without him) When I add up the expense, we would really only be saving a few bucks a month.

I could move to Armenia, but they have their corruption problems too. They sound too much like USA:

Manvel Grigoryan, the former general who is suspected in misappropriating military supplies and donations, as well as illegal possession of firearms, will remain in pre-trial detention for two months.

Grigoryan, a former general who chairs the Yerkrapah Volunteer Union, a paramilitary organization, was arrested on June 16 by national security service in his hometown of Ejmiatsin (Vagharshapat).

The lawmaker from the Republican Party faction is suspected in embezzling military supplies and illegal possession of firearms. Upon searching the compound of Grigoryan, agents found huge amounts of military weapons and ammunition and supplies, including donated food and clothing which was meant to be sent to soldiers in Artsakh back in 2016. The donated supplies even include letters written by schoolchildren during the days of the April War of 2016.

[nolabear]

51. I'm in favor of discussing anything. It's what we're proud of being able to do. And

discussion leads to creativity. You might start that way and arrive at something else. And it’s a statement of a fear and a wish. Sometimes you need to say it.

[Coventina]

52. Only straight, white, Christian men are safe in this country, anymore.

Fuck this country, it has no allegiance to me, so why should I have any to it?

[IronLionZion]

55. Trump wants to deport me for being brown

the country my grandparents came from doesn't want me because I'm Christian. People like me are running out of options.

Your point is 10 times more valid for the privileged folks who could afford to not vote for Hillary/Dems in 2016. Some of us don't have that privilege and are feeling the pain of Trump's presidency long before others will.

Some DUers remind me of the type of person who if a bear is chasing them and their friend, they don't have to outrun the bear. They just have to outrun their friend.

[bucolic_frolic]

56. Emigrating?

Only men and women of property need apply. And what country isn't going to scrutinize American applicants as dolts? Is anywhere going to open their borders for hundreds of thousands of ugly Americans?

[elmac]

58. Costa Rica

just sayin.

[Berlin Expat]

70. Czech Republic

I've been here 17 years now. Can't complain.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

59. Yep

[Mr.Bill]

60. Hell, I feel like i'm in another country when I just leave California.

[democratisphere]

64. I'm still considering swimming across Lake Ontario or Lake Erie to the promised land!

Don't know what I'll do if they don't accept me as a refuge, eh!

[dflprincess]

162. Can't you just drive across either the Rainbow or Peace Bridge?

A bit easier than swimming the lakes.

(Note to those not familiar with it, this is not the Rainbow Bridge pets cross, it's a bridge that crosses the Niagara River from New York to Ontario).

[Clarity2]

65. I think about it all the time

Doesnt mean I can afford it, nor would I do it right now. If this country goes to shit and is taken over for life by a dictator, cant say I blame anyone. This is why people become refugees from other countries!

If things got bad enough, I would encourage my only child to move to canada. Maybe Spain...they seem to be buffered from dictators, and they are cleaning up corruption and mobsters left and right. I dont want him growing up and raising my future grandchilden in what may become an oppressive shit hole run by russia. Because thats what mother instincts tell you to do - get your kid to a safe place. So if youre going to tell me to stfu, well, you are wrong.

[uppityperson]

66. Telling scared people to stfu is wrong. Accusing frightened people of frivolously

"jumping ship", of giving up easily is appalling.

[Clarity2]

67. + 1

And I hate the word “elitist” being thrown around.

[Freddie]

68. Seriously, no other country would want me

I’m retiring soon.
But my daughter is a nurse with loads of experience working on her MSN. I bet she would be highly welcome in Canada. Give her family a better future. I’d miss them but it would give me a reason to go up there (if they’d let me in as a visitor) a few times a year.

[Trueblue Texan]

69. I agree

When a ship sinks the rats are the first to abandon it

[Still In Wisconsin]

73. I'm not planning on moving, I'm planning on dying.

So, yeah.

[Cryptoad]

75. I signed up and fought for our country so,,,,,

I dont need any lectures abt jumping ship!

[thewhollytoast]

77. Hey Atticus

I fought in your Army. I owe you nothing.

Toast

[Gothmog]

78. My response to this crap to work as hard as possible to turn Texas blue

[Doreen]

81. I do not see the ones wanting out as being elitist or unpatriotic.

Yes, I want out but saying I will never get out I am here to fight the fight for us all. The ONLY thing I have going for me as far as this fascist administration is concerned is that I am white ( which I have become ashamed of being. ) I am a woman, poor, uneducated ( at least not properly ), disabled, receive benefits, and am a Democrat.

If I could move back to Germany I would in a second but from what you read above no country would even come close to even considering me to live there.

I am not a strong person and when I lose everything I will not stay. I figure that if I leave there will be one less person taking what others need more than I do ( like children. )

Yes, I know some of you are going to think I am a coward and that is your right but I have been through enough pain both physical and emotionally throughout my life that I can not handle the more severe punishment that is in store for a lot of us if we end up losing and become totally fascist.

As I said, as long as we can fight for our freedom and each other I will stand with you.

[workinclasszero]

83. I agree

The number of democrats what will suffer under Trump and SCOTUS fascist theocracy far outweigh the wealthy few that can escape the worst of it.

I saw talk of woman flying off to blue states when the fascist SCOTUS kills Roe. That's not gonna work for the vast majority of young women working for 10 bucks an hour in a damn redstate hellhole that can't come up 400 bucks in an emergency, ever!

[qazplm135]

85. Their side fights harder than ours

Our side is too prone to quit or drop out at the first setback or negative result.

Until we fix that, we are going to continue to punch below our weight.

[Mariana]

124. What's happening now is hardly "the first setback or negative result". nt.

[mainer]

86. I wonder if Jews in 1937 Germany heard the same message

"Stay and fight, or you're an unpatriotic coward."

I can sympathize with Muslim and minority Americans who might feel things are starting to feel dangerous for them.

[workinclasszero]

92. Do you really think, say Canada, is going to let the poor and lower middle class from America

stream in by the millions to escape the Trump/GOP theocracy?

LOL

[Orsino]

87. When the house catches on fire, opinions will vary on how soon to evacuate. n/t

[Mariana]

135. Evacuate? You should stay in the house and fight the fire! nt.

[Orsino]

171. Until the point at which safety means evacuation.

Opinions will vary as to when that is. It'll depend on which are the most vulnerable to current and expected threats, and on who is able to fight or organize a flight.

There is no one-size-fits-all mandate for patriotism.

[stopwastingmymoney]

183. I'm sorry, that's a bad analogy

I'm not an advocate of running away

But those of us with experience of wild fires know that if you stay to try and save your home, you're risking your life

[Orsino]

188. And if you've got loved ones who are more vulnerable...

...you plan for possible exits, even if you currently have the energy for a fight.

[Honeycombe8]

88. I disagree. It's okay ....

It's okay that people discuss their plans going forward. It was this way when we started the unnecessary Iraq War, too.

Whatever someone's plans are, that's fine, if that's what is best for them. If you can't afford to move...well, I hate seeing ads about new cars all over the place, when I can't afford a new car. I don't see what that has to do with trying to stop ads for new cars.

[braddy]

89. Mexico is inexpensive and we can walk to it, any American can afford to immigrate there.

[Honeycombe8]

93. The drug cartel is very dangerous there.

Americans occasionally disappear there or end up dead. I assume it's not everywhere, but still. And if you don't speak the language....

I've heard Costa Rica has an expatriot area and is pretty, and cheap to live there.

[dameatball]

94. 3 kids & 7 grandkids. I'll be sticking around.

[YOHABLO]

97. Personally, I have family that I love and care about. How unconscionably selfish and heartless

to leave them, just to save my own ass. No, we all need each other to fight, to resist, and mostly take care of each other.

[Rebl2]

98. I agree

with you.
I think countrys should put a travel ban on Americans coming to their country or allowing them to immigrate.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

101. Hmmm. If you had a time machine and could go back to Germany in 1934,

would you tell the Jews there to stay and fight for their nation's survival?

It feels as if we are very much in the place Germany was shortly after Hitler came to power. I have given some thought to leaving. I probably won't, but I have told my son that if he gets a job offer in another country when he is finished with school, to take it and we'll see if I can join him.

[meadowlander]

103. I tend not to bring it up except in posts attacking people who move overseas.

However, since you "asked":

1. We get one life to live and a right to decide where we will be happiest without judgement from other people. When people express interest in moving to another country, we have a right to speak frankly about our experiences with that decision.
2. We are born into a random spot on the earth. There is nothing wrong with choosing the live in a different spot. And if a country doesn't earn your loyalty, there is no reason it should retain it. People have a right to choose a government that reflects their values and aligns with their sense of identity. Would you try to shame a transgendered person by saying "you were born one way, it's letting down your gender to change, most people can't afford gender reassignment surgery and it's elitist and selfish that you can, so if you can't be bothered to stay the same as you were born, at least STFU about your transition and don't encourage other people to do the same"? I would hope not. So why make the same argument to people who are trans-national and have, since birth, felt a deep sense of alienation from the country where they were born?
3. You don't need that much money to move overseas. Just ask a Guatemalan or Syrian refugee who I'm sure couldn't come up with $400 in an emergency either. You just need to be willing to work hard and put up with stress and risk and it has to be your top priority - ahead of everything else except your kids. I've moved overseas about four times to different countries and never with more than a few hundred dollars or so in the bank. You can get work teaching English in a lot of countries overseas. In some countries, they will pay for your plane ticket and set you up with a place to live. Lots of people without much money get funding from their churches to work on missions or do seasonal farm work or work as au pairs or on cruise ships. But you have to be willing to give up your stuff, and your job and housing security, and your pets, and close relationships with friends and family and whatever privileges you get from living in an area where people like you who speak the same language live. There's nothing wrong with not being willing to give up those things, but it doesn't make you patriotic.
4. I still vote. I still follow US news. I still write my Congresscritters. Which is more than 90% of the people who actually live in the US do. So it's ridiculous to say that just because I live overseas, I'm not "fighting for our nation's survival". Why don't you direct your energy and anger at the 50+% of your neighbors who don't vote instead of going after people living thousands of miles away who do? We're still on the same side you know.

[G_j]

109. Thank you!

very well said.

[moose966]

104. I agree

I agree with Atticus. No need to give up on this fight. We need instead to increase our efforts as we are able to get all Democrats to vote on ALL elections, even those for "dog catchers". We have a good chance of getting the House in 2018. Then for sure the Senate and the presidency in 2020. Hopefully RGB and Bryer can hang in there until then. Don't give up fellow Dems.

[heaven05]

105. I understand the anger

but #WETHEPEOPLE, the real americans are still here and we will, I will fight till my last breath these goddamn fascists.

[NNadir]

106. Thank you. N/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

107. Spoken like a straight white male probably Christian.

[MicaelS]

131. And this means what?

Lots of Straight White Christian Males and Females voted for Trump.

And if lots of Straight White Christian Males and Females want to leave what does that mean?

[Atticus]

134. Sorry---that is just too messed up to merit a meaningful response. nt

[cannabis_flower]

108. Would you have said that..

to Jews leaving Germany or Josephine Baker who left the United States for France because of the racism. Some of us might not have much of a choice. Leave the country with my spouse or stay here alone. And it isn't like we have a bunch of extra money. We will probably have to sell everything we have to leave but we are lucky to have a house to go to.

[lunasun]

125. Personally know of a Jewish family who left early for China &survived . For some of us it eventually

could be life or death if the / fascism /racism accelerates. Who cares if you don't think I'm a patriot staying to fight . The Jews that ignored , held on or thought money made them untouchable didn't all get out . Our family has already discussed it , so sorry to upset others, but we don't care ,
it's our survival we are discussing

Not only POC or Muslim, but tell that to the tortured and killed gay men in Chechnya
Local officials openly approve of these killings, while Moscow turns a blind eye.

Now I will stfu as requested

[EllieBC]

110. It's arrogance. For some reason, Americans think they can move anywhere.

It's not like moving to another state. Different countries have different laws, requirements, and policies. Hint: They don't necessarily want you.

I am a permanent resident of Canada. My husband was my sponsor. It cost us around $1000 and a yer and a half. During that time I couldn't work and I didn't have health care. Every time I hear people saying they'll "just move to Canada", I laugh. Hysterically. It's not that easy. Don't have a needed skill, money, or a sponsor? Then that's a big nope.

It's American arrogance that everyone will take them in.

[workinclasszero]

129. Thanks for the reality lesson

I'm sure arrangements could be made for rich folks/MD's etc to escape Dump's Amerikkka but not for most people.

OTOH is the world thinks it can sit back in comfort as the USA turns into a theocratic fascist nightmare, they are nuts.

We have the most lethal military on this planet and Dear Leader is very fond of trad wars which can be the first step into a hot war with bombs and bullets.

[MicaelS]

113. Fantastic post. Thank you.

The hilarious thing is that there of lots of old white people on the Right who don't want change, and lots of old white people on the Left who want to leave.

[BootinUp]

114. I was planning to go to Mars. Nt

[TNLib]

115. I kind of agree

I've been exploring the possibility but haven't posted anything just because so many people don't have the option.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

116. We are taught as children that this is the greatest country in the world

We are forced to pledge to the flag, reciting daily the lie “with liberty and justice for all”.
We are taught “all men are created equal”, when clearly, whom by a random accident of birth is either a life filled with advantages to a life filled with strife and everything in between.
We are taught that if we work hard, we can be whatever we want, and we will succeed. But the deck is stacked.
Safety nets continue to be shredded.

Nowhere is perfect. But I stopped feeling pride in being an American from the U.S. a long time ago. When Bush was re-elected I felt like I no longer belonged here.

I’m 63 years old. I left a year ago. I know I am fortunate in having met and fallen in love and married a U.K. citizen, who lived with me in the U.S. for 22 years.

Enough. And I don’t have to stfu.

[lunatica]

117. You really have no right to stand in judgement

Period.

[Atticus]

128. Any time we express an opinion about a post or a poster, we are

"standing in judgment", just like your post just did. And, as just explained, your opinion is incorrect. I absolutely had the right to express my opinion.

[lunatica]

137. Yes. I am judging you

as a person who doesn’t have the right to decide what others feel is patriotic or not. If you think the burgeoning Gilead is OK then you’re in the right place. It isn’t the America most of us love.

[Atticus]

143. You chose an appropriate moniker. nt

[lunatica]

146. You fail in your intended insult

You haven’t a clue as to why I chose it or why your attack on it is incredibly stupid.

[Atticus]

147. Sorry we are at odds. These are stressful times. Tomorrow will be a new day. I will try to

be a better and more patient person, especially with fellow Democrats. Good evening.

[Demsrule86]

118. I get what you are saying. But I have a Gay daughter who will be endangered with

righty courts...they could bring back criminal charges for Gay people...it could happen. So I will sell everything I have or sneak her across the border if I have to in order to keep her safe. This isn't about not wanting to deal with Trump but often about the safety of our kids or other loved ones. I am willing to fight for my country but not willing to sacrifice my kid.

[Tipperary]

120. I am gay. I have no worries or plans for sneaking across any borders lol.

People need to get a grip here.

[Demsrule86]

123. Gorsuch is in the mode of Scalia who always wanted to continue with a law against

homosexuality...another one like him...and it could happen. Consider that they were still prosecuting it as of 2003 in Texas and other places...Lawrence VS Texas meant that all states had to stop...this happened in 2003. It could be revoked. So I am worried.

[Tipperary]

122. Most people have no clue how difficult it is to emigrate to another country.

I remember all these same posts when dotard was elected. Those people who said they were leaving are still here lol.

[VMA131Marine]

126. I'm a dual citizen. My other citizenship: the UK!

For another 8 months or so, the whole of the EU is open to me. After that you couldn't pay me enough to go live in a Tory-controlled UK where there aren't going to be any jobs or any prospects.

[SCantiGOP]

136. Agree with you, Atticus

[IndianaKev]

138. To add to this

If you say that you are no longer a Democrat because a Democratic representative did something you don't like... Guess what? The Democratic party is now more conservative because you left us. Is that what you intended?

[Atticus]

141. Huh? NT

[shellyleit]

140. I love America...

... but in a very general sense. I love the land, I love my home state (not the one I live in now) mostly out of a sense of nostalgia, I love the natural beauty of it and some of the culture. I don't love the people. I hate Trump supporters and distrust all Republicans. I think many Americans are awful, spoiled, selfish, ignorant people in general. They have no idea how to live with less and they are violent and don't care about learning more about the world. I have very little "patriotism" left. It doesn't mean anything to me. I have been to a few other countries and like at least half of them more than the US because they are better countries. This lie we were told as kids that America is the best country on earth is ridiculous. It's not even the most free country on earth, not by a long shot. We have been lied to since we were in pre-school. America is not great, and it's even in decline from it's former non-greatness.
No, I don't have money to move out of the US because the US itself has made sure of that. I've never been paid nearly as much as a man, and now my health care is sky-high, I can't even afford it, and I live paycheck to paycheck. That's where a lot of Americans are. "They" have made it very hard for us to leave, on purpose.

[billh58]

142. I believe that in today's

world, where you live doesn't define who you are, or your nationality. I will always be a US citizen because that's what Fate decided when I was born. I have lived and worked in various places around the world for over half of my life, but I never considered that I had "jumped ship."

As far as being "bothered to fight for OUR nation's survival," what can any of us realistically do except vote every few years? GOTV? Go to rallies? Demonstrate? Yes, we will feel better about ourselves for those actions, but in reality they do very little to change anything politically.

[Atticus]

145. Yeah, you are probably right: "All is lost! No use to fight. No use to resist. Hell,

why even vote?" That type of attitude has a way of becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy. No thanks.

[billh58]

174. More like self-fulfilling

reality. I did not say, nor even imply, "why even vote." My response was to your rant against living out of the country, which does not preclude political involvement. I have voted in every election, both national and local, regardless of where I was in the world.

Righteous indignation is not fighting the political system, and lecturing other Democrats serves no real political purpose.

[Atticus]

184. So, if we vote, no other objections or opposition is necessary? No need

to be here to personally confront these traitors?

As I'm sure you know, my post was never about people whose jobs or families or non-political interests motivated their move.

[billh58]

187. Again, you are putting words in

my mouth. I didn't say that we shouldn't "confront" the malignant right-wingers. What I actually said was that confrontation doesn't accomplish anything concrete other than personal satisfaction. Voting is the only meaningful tool we have to actually confront the Right, and convincing others to join us in voting for Democrats is much more important than demonstrations, confrontation, or acts of civil disobedience.

Regardless of the reason for moving/living outside of the US, doing so doesn't take away any voting privileges, nor does it lessen one's political participation or patriotism.

[NewEnglandAutumn]

148. The Countries I looked Into

Will not take us because of health issues.

I have been so depressed about the state of this country I have seriously been considering suicide. The only thing stopping me is how unfair it would be to my spouse and offspring. My other relatives would cheer; they hate me due to the political/ethical divide.

[mnhtnbb]

150. I am sorry to hear that

you are considering suicide as an option. Have you talked about that with anyone? A friend, your spouse, a counselor? Do you have someone that you can call?

There is a Mental Health Support Group on this board here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1151

[mnhtnbb]

149. Or you could use the ignore button.

Do you grasp the irony of telling people on a presumably democratic discussion board to STFU? Or is this one of the new tactics--like no longer going high when they go low--to tell people to STFU about discussing various options just like the right wing fundies want to tell health care providers they can no longer discuss abortion as an option?

[Atticus]

152. First, I have never used the "ignore" button as I don't think THAT is "democratic".

Second, are you saying that ANYTHING is ok to post here? Why do we have TOS? What's with these "alerts"? If someone urged the assassination of our opponents, would "STFU" be ok? It would be one of "various options" so does that make it an acceptable topic for discussion?

Third, I stand by my OP.

[Kurt V.]

153. as a humanist

I'm not inclined to patriotism. the world is my country. having said that, thanks for substantive, lively debate.

[mnhtnbb]

157. Great, your choice not to use the button just

as it is my choice to discuss all the legal options open to me in the various choices available to me in my life. Please notice I said "legal".

So, no I will not STFU about my option to choose to live in another country.

[ecstatic]

154. I really hope I'll have that option if it comes to it, but

as far as fighting for "OUR nation's survival," I'll do what I can, but the cognitive dissonance is becoming overwhelming. This nation can't point to a single 10 year stretch of no US government sanctioned atrocities.

We take 20 steps back for every 10 steps forward.

Also, the odds of turning things around are getting worse because a democracy cannot survive with an overwhelmingly ignorant populace.

[warmfeet]

155. Doesn't piss me off in the slightest.

I will stay here and work like hell to improve things. That's somewhat patriotic I would say.

[Enoki33]

158. Rachel just said it very well - "your country needs you too".

Think l understand the fear and hopelessness that makes someone think about life in another country. However, what we have here is worth fighting to retain and improve. Personally l absolutely refuse to vote with my feet, I refuse to be silent, I refuse to knuckle under the fascist propaganda, and I refuse to be ruled by a shallow empty demagogue and his bunch of enablers. The immediate goal is to get the political power to see them all branded as criminals. That is a fight worth having.

[iamthebandfanman]

160. Hear Hear

Screw the nationalistic view of doing it 'for the country' tho..
Do it for THE PEOPLE who are STUCK in this country for better or worse during this monster of a presidents reign.
youre abandoning them, youre abandoning your convictions, and youre giving up the fight.

do not back down. do not give up. stay strong and move forward.

we are stronger together!

[DFW]

161. It took me a while to think how to respond to this, as I "left" a long time ago

On the other hand, I didn't leave because I was disgusted with the way things were, but because I found a wonderful woman who didn't want to leave her country, and a job that lets me (or, rather, makes me) be based in her country, and travel constantly. I still spend maybe a total of three months out of the year in the States, always visit Washington and New York, and hang with whatever political types I know and are still willing to put up with me, and chat/talk strategy.

I have nothing for or against those who want to leave. Those of us who have, have done so usually for as many different reasons as there are people. I left for love, and had the incredible luck to work for an outfit that could place me at work here without batting an eye, and already spoke several European languages. But that is hardly typical. That information is about as useful to most others as a Tibetian cookbook written in the original.

I can offer tips for those who want to move to my continent (Europe), but neither encourage or discourage it. Know what the hell you're doing, and remember that getting a work permit and a residence permit in a country like Germany if you can't speak decent German will get you consideration by the authorities about as favorable as someone would get wanting to move from Stuttgart to Boston or L.A. if German is the ONLY language you know. "Everybody speaks English" doesn't cut it, and no, they don't either, not everybody, and not by a long shot.

But I say, if you are fed up enough, go ahead and say why. It isn't going to affect anyone else, and it's not exactly a novel idea. A bunch of Greeks left for Bactria some 2500 years ago. When I was in college (Boston to Philadelphia flights were still done by Pteranodon), a book came out called "I've Had It!" It was a guide to leaving the USA and settling in other countries, and spelled out a number of the pitfalls to expect. It even had a chapter on the Soviet Union (!!!). That chapter had a few more caveats than the others. But it was for people disgusted with what Nixon had done to the USA. Seems tame by comparison now, right? But at the time, as a 20 year old, I lapped that book up, I despised Nixon so. Never did anything about it at the time, of course.

I don't tell anyone to STFU about this because I have never been in the shoes of someone who seriously has had enough. Been harassed by a cop waving a weapon for walking while black? Shit, yeah, I'd think about moving someplace else. Had the God Squad constantly harassing you because you don't pretend to believe the same malarkey they pretend to believe? Ain't got time to take a fast train. Me, it was some beautiful blonde woman suggesting, "come live with me in the banks of the Rhein." I promise you, the message was just as powerful to me at the time as anything else. It must have been. I'm here, right?

But blanket condemnations are like chemotherapy. They may knock out what's making you ill, but they can also seriously damage a lot of good parts that you'll need down the road. Use with caution.

[a la izquierda]

163. Aww poor you, I didn't ask to be born in this country.

And I’m not exactly going to sit here and wait for it to be Gilead.
I am so tired of having things done, indirectly, in my name because I’m American. Things that have happened in my lifetime, such as supporting murderous dictators in Central/South America; lying into war; I can go on but I’d rather go back to sleep.
If people of color or women want to leave, go for it. This will get worse for us (women) and them (folks of color), before it gets better.

[Olafjoy]

164. I had a moment...

I had a moment yesterday when I thought “next stop, Canada”
An hour later, I received an email from the organizer of the Saturday protest for this area asking me for help. Damn right I’ll be there at 6:30 am and yes I will be in charge of the First Aid tent.
Making a double sided sign:
‘You can’t support Trump and be a Christian. Read the rule book: (bible picture)’
Other side: ‘Enforce the Pence Rule! No separation from Mother’
Balls to the wall, people. Listen to the Churchill “Never give up” quote and the “We shall fight on the beaches” speech. Let us all sing “We Shall Overcome”.
Love the DU community

[Exotica]

165. You lost me instantly with your patriot claptrap and your 'STFU' arrogant bark

Patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit it is the first.

Ambrose Bierce (2016). “The Devil's Dictionary: The Devil World”, p.160

All in all a shambolic OP
Big De-Rec

[Thyla]

167. Does this only apply...

In times of distress to those who are merely contemplating such a decision then when the D's are back in power you can feel free to do what you want?
What about those who may leave for differing reasons?
Love, work, lifestyle, etc..

Oh right, privilege

Probably do a lot of good if everyone spent some time abroad.

There are people on this board, heck even in this thread who are openly musing about self harm so yeah I guess there is always an out. A little perspective can go a long way sometimes because if someones out means Canada, Mexico, Europe, Australia or elsewhere then that is a lot better than some of the possible alternatives.
They'll still be able to send their postal votes off which in reality is probably all the fight they would give back at home anyway.

[GeorgeGist]

168. Seriously

Narrow minded.

[Boomer]

170. Good thing your ancestors didn't listen to you

Every person in this country, including Native Americans, are here because their ancestors picked up and left another place to come here. But for some undefined reason we don't have the same right anymore?

All those immigrants we see in the news who are trying to get into the US, they are "abandoning" their country of origin. Brits, Irish, Germans, Syrians, Mexicans, Indians, the list is endless. People move. People look for greener pastures. People make connections in other countries and follow them.


But then, any post that starts off with "This will likely piss off a few of you" is coming from an in-your-face attack anyway, rather than a reasoned argument that appeals to our better nature. STFU right back ya.

[brooklynite]

189. Of course you have the right to leave...

but the discussion on a site dedicated to American Politics is affectively saying to everyone else that their efforts are a waste of time.

[louis c]

172. I'm Leaving Whether You like it or Not

My wife and I have 25 acres on an Island in the Philippines. We built a beautiful house on the property that she inherited. In our retirement, we intend to live 9 or 10 months in the Philippines and 2 or 3 months back in the U.S. She has dual citizenship and I will have a U.S. citizenship and legal status, due to marriage, in the Philippines.

It took about 8 years to build our house in the Philippines, so that decision was made a long time ago. I make no apology for joining a union, working with good wages and benefits and being able to retire comfortably. That's not "elitist" that's just a well planned life. I inherited not a dime. To others that have a tough time making it, I have made it my life's work to help working people improve their lives by organizing into a union.

The fact that now I can actually move out of this country if it gets worse, like Trump wins re-election and the Repukes retain Congress, well, I'm glad I have an option.

[GoneOffShore]

173. We're leaving. Doesn't mean we won't continue to vote. But we're leaving.

I'm too old for this shit. And tired.

The US has become, over the last 20 years, a very unkind place to be. And it's likely to get worse. And apart from voting and protesting and calling, there's fuck all that I can do.

[LanternWaste]

175. The 'love it or leave it' shtick was idiocy then as it is now.

And no... no one is going to 'stfu' simply because you demand it of them. You're simply not as important as you'd like to pretend.

[Paladin]

176. +1000. I'm not leaving, but I don't I feel I have a country anymore. (nt)

[Spider Jerusalem]

177. L-O-fucking-L at "unpatriotic aspect"

I wouldn't have been born at all if my ancestors hadn't decided to leave where they were to go somewhere else (in a lot of cases because things got politically untenable where they were), and I wouldn't be an American if my ancestors and thousands of others like them hadn't decided to take up arms against their king (which is pretty "unpatriotic&quot .

[MrModerate]

180. I have no intention of shutting up. Quite the contrary.

If it gets bad enough (and it's pretty damn close already), I'll take my money and emigrate to any of a dozen countries to which my money seems attractive.

And make noise about it.

Keep in mind, Commenters, that we are each individually responsible for the health and success of our families, and if that means leaving a country that's been hijacked by evil, stupid people, then so be it.

I'm sorry that not everyone has the resources to change countries as needed, but I'll shout my leaving to the sky, because even Trumptards understand (some of them anyway) the flight of capital from incompetent, corrupt nations.

[BlueJac]

182. Telling people to STFU...

is not what this site is about. Good for anyone that has the ways and means to move somewhere else. My wife is Canadian and we have that option, even though her head spins on all of Trumps statements, we are not moving. It has been a sad experience since the election but I have some hope for this country. We have been on a course of division for quite some time now, and we are in for big fight coming up!! Help everyone vote and get rid of this SPEWING MINDLESS ASSHOLE and his enablers.

[dembotoz]

190. some have wondered about central america for years

lower cost of living. good enough healthcare
nicer climate....

had a friend who would take a cruise to different locations to check them out
been doing that for years....
she had sorta picked belieze?

she retired and then dropped dead from a heart attack like a couple weeks later...

not a political thing just looking for a better place to live

she actually had lived in florida for a few years and thought the people were too stupid

i miss sue

[betsuni]

192. And in other countries, it's always something else.

There's no escape. It's a small planet.