I stand by what I wrote by the way, the Indian IT industry is taking jobs, period

[DainBramaged]

from personal experience, the Indian IT industry are JOB TAKERS, plain and simple, there's no racism, they've stolen TENS OF thousands of jobs with questionable resumes and all because corporate America has a lowest possible cost mentality. See if you can go to India and get a job there or start a business. When the playing field is equal, you can bitch.

Those of you who think it's racist to condemn the Indian IT industry for taking American jobs need to find another target before they find a way to take your job.


Have a nice sheltered life.

[progressivebydesign]

1. I agree.

I saw an ad the other day from an Indian company. They were trying to hire a American/English speaking assistant, to do work for them "to give their company an American voice." As they were doing business in America, but hiring only people in India. AND.. they wrote "this job will pay LESS than minimum wage for America, due to the difference in economies."

Just like those bullshit sites like Elance, that have people in India bidding on American projects for $2.00 an hour for high level work, they did the same thing. I have no love for companies that are offshoring jobs, and no love for the massive influx of people from India answering every fucking ad on Craigslist, trying to get jobs remotely for a fraction of what an American would be paid. You see ads now that say applicants in America only, and NO I don't want to outsource the work!"

[RagAss]

2. I agree.

I have been in IT for 30 years and I know what you have posted is fact.

[Tikki]

3. I agree

Tikki

[hollysmom]

4. as long as you condemn the industry and not the people

Individually, you will find the Indian people a nice as anyone. Never have a problem except with a few not questioning authority.

IN fact they get screwed over by the same companies, with replace them with cheaper labor when they want to earn more.

[HiPointDem]

6. of course it's not the workers taking the jobs; it's the system, and us politicians/business/manage-

ment is every bit as complicit as their indian counterparts.

the result is all workers get screwed.

[DainBramaged]

7. Ask any one of them if you can buy a business there, preferably a gas station

when the playing field is level they will be the nicest people in the world.

[American Made]

163. LOL why not. They are taking all our gas stations.

It's about time they see what it feels like to have your jobs stolen.

Great topic by the way. I'm glad somebody had the guts to bring it up!

[Ruby the Liberal]

168. Sorry - can you clarify that?

They are taking all our gas stations.

What gas station purchase did you get outbid on that leads you to this conclusion?

Surprised not to find a Lee Greenwood midi taking over my audio card when I opened this thread. No H1B fan, but xenophobia is a different can of worms.

[American Made]

171. Ask any one of them if you can buy a business there, preferably a gas station

when the playing field is level they will be the nicest people in the world.

[Ruby the Liberal]

173. And just WTF does investing in a gas station

have to do with H1B visas?

Thanks in advance.

[American Made]

174. Who said anything about that? I was responding to a post about gas stations.

[Ruby the Liberal]

175. Pardon, but your xenophobia is showing.

[American Made]

176. How so?

[LongTomH]

30. Our anger should be directed at the American Billionaires who are outsourcing jobs in the.....

....search for greater profits AND the Indian billionaires running the outsourcing companies, like Tata.

When I was allowed to come back to my old company (the one I was downsized from in 2005) for a year, as a contractor, the cubicle next to mine was occupied by a young lady from India. She was a nice kid, and I've no animus toward her; but, the fact is, most of the young people I saw were from India, Asia or the Phillipines. When I worked there in the 90s, our younger workers were mostly American.

[keroro gunsou]

195. in my former career in the game design industry

i'd agree with that statement. it's the company's fault, not the workers. the indian programmers i worked with were really awesome guys, but unfortunately woefully underskilled for the work we needed doing. i was only a content manager and artist/designer, but even i was catching some of their mistakes in coding.

personally, i blame the american business model of the bottom line and good old fashioned greed. don't hate the player, hate the game.

[ohiosmith]

5. Absolutely right! Before retiring I was a VP/GM with one of the world's largest outplacement firms.

I saw hundreds of thousands of jobs go overseas. Primarily to India.

[Egalitarian Thug]

8. More than taking jobs, demolishing professional standards of competence.

After almost 20 years in this industry I've seen first-hand the collapse of competency in the industry. Bogus educational certifications, inability to perform assigned tasks, lack of understanding of the most basic principles of development, cultural roadblocks to performance/cooperation, and on and on and on...

The only thing the Indian IT industry brings are unbelievably cheap warm bodies and big fat campaign contributions. There are exceptions of course, but the overall caliber of work coming out of these body shops is pathetic.

[hollysmom]

12. OH I c an certainly give my example about lying

We were a CMS level 2 site, working toward level 3 -did not like it as it was paper heavy, should have been automated, but - the Indian company that took over our work claimed to be a CMS level 5 - but every time I asked for documentation, it would always be - we will send it, but I never got it and the work was so bad, we kept busy just fixing it. After all the systems were transferred over, we lost all the business because they could not get a straight answer or get anything fixed.

Level 5 is the perfection you can never find, didn't believe they were even level 1

[undeterred]

9. I agree.

[Anansi1171]

10. I'm working side by side with Indians in IT

And they are getting the work via contract both on shore and off. Some are very talented and some not. I think the fairer assessment is that this is the same issues as Chinese workers for companies such as Foxconn, Filipino call centers that in 10 years will give way to African call center, Amazon Mechanical Turk- all the same issues. Structural flattening of all wages means a race to the bottom in the West. We have yet to creatively share work and resources to live with less as individuals while maintaining a high quality of life. It's doable- but winner take all has us sucker punched as usual.

[JDPriestly]

37. Think about the plumbing and the poverty in countries like India.

Sewers on $2 per day.

&feature=related

If our wages sink to the level of theirs, do you think our lives will be any better than theirs?

This is what will happen to our country if we continue to go along with "free" trade.

The rich will get richer and not care at all about what happens to other people. There are a few rich people who can care about others, but in general, they don't.

International trade at the level of today without any wage equity requirements is simply a free ride for capital and a fall to nowhere for labor.

[Anansi1171]

53. I agree completely and have lived with such plumbing...

...in my travels. Yes; the huge wealth disparities and wages in free-fall are symptoms of the casino economy. What are we going to do about the rich that have foisted this upon us? We seem like hamsters on a wheel! I have mouths to feed and cannot contemplate revolution and would not by 20th century methods if I could. I like Adbusters and respect Occupy - but we don't need protest - WE NEED AN ALTERNATIVE WAY OF LIVING!

My idea is to form ground up-purpose built intentional communities. And you know, maybe some of the infrastructure in so doing is a little low-tech; it doesn't have to be haphazard, inefficient and poorly designed as the sewers and plumbing in places like India and Iraq and elsewhere - those countries are industrializing haphazardly,and many times inefficiently and poorly. We need decidedly post-industrial redevelopment - Arcology - and just like Jackie Chan said in some movie - if you have to crank the lever a few times to pump the water- these fatso's can use the exercise and shorten the shower!

I love DU because I am eager to find solutions - I'm curious about yours.

[jeff47]

60. Your post is certainly buzzword compliant.

Unfortunately, it lacks any mechanism for people to actually find work.

[Anansi1171]

73. It may be too rich on the words but it has a mechanism to find work and mitigates a lack thereof.

Perhaps some of the first communities of interest that can be formed are "IT Farms" - we can organize and collaborate to win IT work in the current marketplace. Essentially counter-organize against what the Indians recruiters are doing by winning contracts and work in places like Elance, Odesk and Amazon Turk and compete on some fundamentals aside from price. As you have noted from this thread - some of this Indian IT product is not of quality- requires much by way of remediation(I have seen that) and has political downsides increasingly.

Such a community can - as a whole - act as a proprietor and more equitably share both the work and the rewards(including money). It could be in essence a union and an employee-owned corporation in one. They can also share in local food production, education and child-care, medical care and community support services, disaster prep and assistance - share technology, transportation and other resources(do more with less). The worker can give and receive value for their time and effort aside from and in addition to the external marketplace. From a social evolutionary perspective - this is also an attempt to restore some aspects of society that we miss from the commercial and industrial revolutions - from being completely reified from that which we consume to naturally socializing where technological change has us constantly walking a hall of mirrors.

Buzzwords are simply trying to convey ideas and capture the imagination - this is clearly an old playbook and no ideas are credited here or original - but we must change the way we love WHOLESALE! The climate and human civilization demand it.

[jeff47]

75. But how, exactly, do you make it work.

Perhaps some of the first communities of interest that can be formed are "IT Farms" - we can organize and collaborate to win IT work in the current marketplace

If you're in the US and your competition is in India, you're not going to be able to beat their price.

If your customers are selecting not on price, then the commune doesn't help any more than a staffing agency - which doesn't require sharing the wealth nor tilling the fields. And with increasing levels of telecommuting, it's quite feasible to work for someone far away. Especially in this industry.

So how do you attract people from an already libertarian-leaning industry? I could potentially see getting a small percentage of new developers, but without the experienced developers you aren't going to win contracts. And the experienced developers aren't the ones desperate for work - we get unsolicited job offers from old resumes.

[JDPriestly]

89. I try to live very frugally, recycle, reuse and live wisely.

All of my produce garbage goes either to my worm bin or to my compost. In the center of LA (or close to it), I can't produce much -- and water is really scarce, but I do what I can.

I use public transportation -- trains, etc. and walk when possible.

But that isn't nearly enough to save the planet. We need an organized effort and more information. I believe that California is doing pretty well when it comes to using alternative energy, and I am pleased about that.

[zzaapp]

151. I've always wondered how a country

that has so many engineers, can't develop a decent sewer system.

[LonePirate]

11. I was one of the two Leave It Alone jury votes on the alert on your now hidden post

[DainBramaged]

14. I thank you, there was NO racism intended

they take our jobs, fuck them, I don't care where they come from.


The best part I was born here, I live here, till the day I die.

[westerebus]

21. Some times it is what it is.

I voted not to hide and that was my comment.

[American Made]

164. Same here Boss. Born in the USA. Fuck the job stealers.

Good to see people are finally waking up and taking some action to deal with this issue.

[JDPriestly]

38. It is not a race issue. It is about wages, about the valuation of work

and about equity. It's about rich capitalists taking what they can and leaving the rest of us to pick up the scraps.

[madokie]

13. I'm on your side

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You know, your anger is partly misplaced

it is not the indian IT industry that led to this. It is Microsoft that built an incredible campus on Mumbai so they would not have to pay Americans. It is Visa, same deal, it is Master Card, same. It is the insert here major transnational that has indeed gone to India, mumbai to be specific, and built campuses that are both beautiful and symptomatic

It is called globalization and they are taking advantages of the laws and treaties passed by our government officials, to serve them.

So blaming Indians is very small part of the story.

I dislike Friedman for being a cheerleader for this, but his books are a required reading on it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

19. Both India and China's economies were created by American corporations back in the 70's.

A former colleague was in the first group of IBMers that set up China in the mid 70's. That's why Nixon went to China.

None of this is coincidental nor accidental.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Exactly,and instead of lashing out at OTHER PEOPLE

we should find ways to have a world wide union, outsource that!

But when I bring this up even with high ranking in labor, the old xenophobia comes up.

(Now I somehow switched the computer to Spanish)

[DainBramaged]

28. I lash out at the industry, and I still love ya

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. The problem is that you are lashing truly

at the symptom, the end consequence, not the cause. The cause is globalization and if workers united world wide, it would make the life of the usual suspects that much more harder.

[Egalitarian Thug]

34. How? China and India are both good examples. Collective bargaining is impossible in both

nations. The state is the absolute authority in China and in India it is culturally prohibited.

There is simply no such thing as free trade internationally, barriers must exist if the people are to flourish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I know the prohibitions, they existed in the US

and they once again exist in the US. That is part of the problem.

[Egalitarian Thug]

81. So are you saying that we must continue to fall further and further until those

countries eventually change their laws and culture? That will take decades, maybe centuries.

What am I missing?

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. No, what I am saying is that we need a multiple prong aproach

We need to get border protections for our mission critical industries... (Which incidentally both India and China do have), but we also must recognize that this workers of the world unite has some reason behind it.

Right now the bad guys (not workers) are winning because they are pitting workers against each other and hiding the fact of what is going on.

It is far more complex than just that. Been researching an article on actual media coverage of labor issues (which we try to do locally), and it's almost inexistent in major media, so we also need to break that pattern. For the record, this is also a pattern that is expanding, and it goes hand in hand with weakening labor world wide.

What I am saying is that single solutions will not stop this...

[Egalitarian Thug]

109. But doesn't it make sense to decide on, develop, and implement a solution

here where we have the capability? Then, once we can show that it works, help others to implement it where they live?

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Right now we are all just fighting and pointing fingers

Tarriffs is not new, we just gave up on it circa 1980s. It was a policy decision changing 200+ years of history and policy.

[Egalitarian Thug]

142. IOW giving up on them was such a bad idea that virtually everybody that didn't stand to profit from

their elimination recognized it as such for over two centuries. Or maybe it just took two centuries to make enough of us so stupid that we will buy absolute nonsense as long as it's presented by "authority".

And yes, we are doing nothing about it because we are captured by a duopoly that will not allow any discussion of actual solutions.

But, it doesn't have to be this way.

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. We are at the small mind state

sadly

[Anansi1171]

57. Very good point! Not accidental at all! NT

[Initech]

16. They're not taking our jobs. Our jobs are being given to them.

And they're being given away by scumbag right wingers who favor greedy CEOs who favor profit over people with policies that favor outsourcing and declining wages for those that are the greedy robber barons of society.

[eggplant]

39. Exactly.

You are blaming Indian workers for working? Blame the assholes here in the US who are firing US workers to save a buck.

[DainBramaged]

46. Sure, here's an apple

[Egalitarian Thug]

110. I'm not arguing with what you wrote, but that makes Bill Clinton and a host of Democrats

"scumbag right wingers".

[frylock]

114. if the shoe fits

[Egalitarian Thug]

143. From where does your sig line come? I think I like it.

[NCTraveler]

148. I believe it is a Britney Spears quote. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

161. LOL, perfect! Thanks. n/t

[freshwest]

169. +1,000. And they are desperate to survive, so they don't follow rules. Could happen anywhere.

[antigop]

17. Be sure to read this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=37898

[OhioChick]

36. And this one..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014188027

[Zalatix]

94. LOL!!! And people used to say H1B workers aren't underpaid.

Looks like that lie got blown out of the water.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

99. I have stopped responding to immigration posts simply because even on DU

people get blinded by what they perceive as reality, instead of the facts, but I feel that I must now contribute, since I was in charge of immigration practices at the company named above and I'm quite familiar with immigration law, as I am myself a legal immigrant and as it has been my profession and my passion for over 12 years.

Firstly, CIS is a right-wing organization that -despite its credo- is very much against immigration and immigrants (legal or illegal). Therefore, its sources can be questioned.

Secondly, if (and that's a big if) the actual statements made by that company are factual, they are illegal.

Thirdly, from a purely legal standpoint, if a company owns a subsidiary overseas and wants to bring in workers to work in the U.S., the visa classification that should be sought is the L visa, not the H-1B. Why? The reasons are numerous but the big one is cost. Currently, the filing fee for an H-1B visa is $2,325, while the filing fee for an L visa is $325. These are just filing fees owed to USCIS and do not include legal fees nor fees required to obtain credentials evaluations or the manpower needed to sign and review forms, etc.

Contrary to popular opinion - even on an enlightened site as DU - it is very expensive to hire foreign workers. Even for an H-1B, a company generally will spend anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000 in legal fees in addition to the filing fees which, by law, must be paid by the employer.

Moreover, legitimate employers who seek H-1B workers MUST pay them at or above the prevailing wage for the job position in the same geographic area. This prevailing wage is not hidden or magical - the one most likely to be used is the prevailing wage survey issued by the Department of Labor itself and it is freely available online to anyone at http://www.flcdatacenter.com.

For instance, a Computer Systems Analyst in the Las Vegas, NV, metro area, who is being sought for an H-1B visa position must earn at least $59,550 per year. This is a Level 1 wage which means a basic entry-level position.

Thus, when a company submits to DOL an attestation (called Labor Condition Application, a/k/a LCA) of the wage to be paid, this prevailing wage rate must be listed and the salary offered must be at or above this wage. Benefits offered to the worker must also be the same. The attestations are even more important if unions are involved. Yes, DOL does check these things.

Of course, there will be fraud, as there is in anything else - food stamps, tax returns, etc. But the fact remains that most companies do play by the rules and that there are quite a few openings even at my current employer in various areas including IT, accounting and marketing, for which it has been very difficult to find qualified workers. Especially in the marketing arena, where the emphasis is on international clients, it has been incredibly difficult to find U.S. citizens with the skills (usually language fluency and cultural savvy) necessary to perform at a high level.

If any of you are looking for a position and live or are willing to relocate to the Las Vegas, NV, area, please direct message me and I will send you the link to my company's career site.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

100. Here are a few IT positions open at my employer (name redacted)

APPLICATION ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 11
CHIEF APPLICATION ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 14
ENTERPRISE ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 11
INFORMATION ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 11
LEAD APPLICATION ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 13
LEAD DATABASE ADMINISTRATOR - IT Full-Time 13
LEAD ENTERPRISE ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 13
MULTIMEDIA SPECIALIST 07
OPERATIONS CENTER ANALYST - IT Full-Time 09
OPERATIONS CENTER APPLICATION ENGINEER Full-Time 10
PROJECT MANAGER BUSINESS SOLUTIONS - IT Full-Time 11
PROJECT MANAGER COMPLIANCE - IT Full-Time 11
ENTERPRISE ARCHITECT Full-Time 12
SENIOR PROJECT MANAGER BUSINESS OPS - IT Full-Time 12
SUPERVISOR - CONVENTION SET-UP Full-Time 08
SYSTEMS SECURITY ARCHITECT - IT Full-Time 12
VP - BUSINESS SOLUTIONS - IT BUSINESS OP Full-Time 15
VP CHIEF INFORMATION SECURITY OFFICER-IT Full-Time 16


Seems like most are full time positions.

[Egalitarian Thug]

113. Put this up as its own thread and we'll have the discussion this deserves.

I'm one of those highly qualified, experienced professionals that you all claim you are looking for and after hundreds of inquiries isn't even given an interview. Further, if I'm "overqualified" (the number one excuse), I have a list of several dozen former colleagues with a wide range of experience and skill sets that have identical experiences.

This scam has many variables and a cast of thousands that would do nothing but hijack this posters thread, but the bottom line is that it serves no purpose other than to suppress wages in the U.S.

And I do live in Las Vegas.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

147. Well, again, since I actually do this for a living,

I can tell you that for 9 out of 10 employers, this is not a 'scam.' Of all the thousands of visa petitions I have myself signed for and/or completed, not one was out of compliance with the wage proffered or with any other violation. If anything, these employees were paid a lot more and turned out to be outstanding professionals, some of whom are now full fledged U.S. citizens.

If you live in Vegas, go to m...g....m...resortscareers dot com and see for yourself. It's how I applied for my job, got interviewed, got a second interview, then got a job offer after a hair drug test and rather extensive background check. Nowhere was I asked what type of visa I needed (I have a green card, thus I am considered on par with U.S. citizens when I apply for non-government jobs).

[Egalitarian Thug]

160. And since I am quite literate I was able to read what you wrote and since I also did

this for a living (a very good one I might add) I also can tell you quite specifically that you're splitting hairs and avoiding the issues.

And since I live here I am quite familiar with MGM resorts, Caesar's Entertainment, and Harrah's (that's 90+% of the Strip) as well as dozens of their employee's, and with the sole exception of people like you that make their living furthering the scam, everybody knows that they are being ripped off and by whom and why. You are helping to create the backlash. Keep that in mind over the next couple of years.

Oh, and the hair drug test is another tool to avoid hiring. It was first widely implemented by EDS when Perot owned it the second time for similar reasons, to avoid hiring (but in that case it was to keep the 'hippies' he hates so much out).

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

I had hoped that you were not just another in a long line of bullshitters that dominate out here and that a conversation could take place. Stupid me.

[NYC_SKP]

18. Tell it, DB!

[liberallibral]

20. I agree

110%

[abelenkpe]

23. Globalisation

It's destroying animation and effects too.
Other countries offer tax incentives to lure jobs away from the US lowering the standard of living for all workers. Gov responds by saying we must gut our social programs, environmental standards and labor laws further in order to compete. We need global labor unions or worker strikes to counter the influence of multinationals that pit workers and governments around the world against one another.

[pnwmom]

24. I was just looking in my area, which is a high tech center,

at temporary agency listings for entry level IT jobs. Practically nothing. Hopefully things will be less grim in a couple of years when my student graduates, but that doesn't help the kids graduating today.

There's no good excuse for most of those HIB visas. There are too many unemployed Americans at every level.

[limpyhobbler]

25. I think US workers and Indian workers should form labor unions and unite together to demand more

to demand more from the owners. In my view pitting workers against workers based on nationality does not work out well for us.

[awoke_in_2003]

26. I think we should have world peace, too.

it has just as much chance of happening as American and Indian labor uniting. Hell, we can't even get American labor to unite anymore. In the race to "get mine and screw you", we have a population that spits on the idea of unions.

[abelenkpe]

51. You're right

But it doesn't change the fact that what is needed, and our only hope, is for workers to unite globally. We need world peace too. We should never give up trying for both.

[awoke_in_2003]

59. With the way that pay...

and working conditions are deteriorating in this country, I have no doubt that labor will once again resurge in this country. I just don't think it will happen in my lifetime (I am 44). Americans can take a lot of crap before they finally wake up and get off their lazy asses.

[awoke_in_2003]

61. Thinking about it...

I don't think the root of the problem will ever be fixed. Yes, labor will make gains, just like they have in the past. The rich will give us crumbs to shut us up for a while. Then they will slowly eat back into those gains again. Rinse and repeat. The rich will always be rich, and they will take as much as they can, stopping just short of causing general revolt.

[abelenkpe]

74. Bummer.

I totally agree!

So much for optimism

[2Design]

27. absolutely and they are not as smart

[Ron Obvious]

29. I agree

I've nothing much to add here, but as another 30 year veteran of the IT industry, I will just add my voice here to support your argument. Outsourcing IT destroys local IT jobs, especially entry-level jobs - leading to a gap in the experience ladder - lowers quality, and reduces incentive for young people to study IT.

It's a race to the bottom, plain and simple. Short-term money savings paid for by disaster in the long term. Typical of modern capitalism: après moi le deluge.

[SoDesuKa]

77. Reduces Incentive

. . . reduces incentive for young people to study IT

That's for sure. If you can stand the noise, there's always body and fender repair.



Career advancement? You can always open your own shop.

[Panasonic]

31. I see many recruiters emailing me

And 95% of them are Indian recruiters.

My guess they're trying to get around the H2-B limit by pretending to recruit us, only to give jobs to the H2-B's.

[DainBramaged]

45. I gave up applying for jobs YEARS ago

they'd claim they couldn't finds a qualified candidate after interviewing dozens of Americans, and then BOOM, here comes the H1B train.


They had no intention of hiring American

[snooper2]

56. do you actually work for Panasonic-

And if you do, do you have anything to do with the voice/PBX/IP side of the house?

[Panasonic]

70. No

Actually I had to think up a name fo ru, so I looked up, and presto - my Panasonic DV camera that needed to be retired (and continued to be unused) was in my view.

[limpyhobbler]

32. Can you clarify, what specifically are you advocating?

Is it ending the H1-B program or what? I'm not arguing, but just not sure what you are getting at. Thanks.

[DainBramaged]

43. My OP is pretty much self-explanatory and if you go through my journal

you'd see I'm a fierce advocate for ENDING ALL H1B programs, America does NOT meed them they are bullshit.


Wow clarify I think we're getting screwed?

[limpyhobbler]

67. Any other policy recommendations?

A lot of Indian IT workers are working here with Green Cards, or resident alien cards. Would you revoke those cards?

[L0oniX]

40. K & R

[OhioChick]

41. India's strict visa regulations hamper entry of skilled foreigners

4 Mar, 2012, 10.00PM IST, Ishani Duttagupta,ET Bureau

Alexandra Patargia is a 26-year-old civil engineer from Greece. After an engineering degree from Athens, she completed her master's degree in development administration and planning from London and is now keen on finding a job in India.

"I have been following the India growth story for the past couple of years. My qualifications in civil engineering and development should find a very good fit in India, I feel. Besides, India is on a growth path while European countries such as ours are not doing very well," she says. However, her job search in India has so far not yielded results.

The main reason for this is the $25,000 per annum lower limit that the Indian government has set for giving employment visas to skilled overseas workers. For Patargia, who has two years of work experience in Greece, an annual salary below $25,000 is acceptable. "I would like to work in India to gain experience. I'm willing to start with a lower salary. I know that in my kind of job, there will be an annual increase in the salary based on performance. However, the Indian government rules don't allow that," she says.

Many young professionals like Patargia now want India on their CVs and the reason is not always mind-boggling entry level salaries. Mumbai-based lawyer Ashok Pratap, who has a growing clientele of foreigners looking for employment visas, sees the interest among young foreign professionals to work in India going beyond just good salaries.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-03-04/news/31121422_1_annual-floor-limit-annual-salary-india-growth-story

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. "Workers of the WORLD Unite" is still the answer.

[Anansi1171]

62. That,and we MUST remove our aggregate consumption as disruptively as possible from their equation.

Boycott everything possible and focus on buying staples such as food and clothing from OUR vendors. If we could organize and exercise that level of commercial discipline- we could really wake them up. Let the wing nuts try to buy enough to keep Chick-fil-a, Brawny and Papa Johns in business.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

44. I will believe there is no racial angle to this when...

I see incredulous, foaming at the mouth rage directed at Australians, Canadians, Chileans and Singaporeans who have the proverbial golden ticket for US work visas.

[DainBramaged]

47. I can go to Canada or Australia tomorrow and work

I can also own a business there.

Chile, nah, too high, Singapore, really, I'm leaving for Singapore?


The playing field with the Asian nations is NOT level, period.


Have a nice time figuring this out.

[NNN0LHI]

48. Your anger is misplaced

It is not the Indian IT workers who are taking your job. It is the Americans who hire them whose fault this is.

I am not angry at the workers in other countries and American non-union workers who decimated my industry.

I am angry at my fellow citizens who hired them to build their products.

See what I am saying here?

Don

[Lionessa]

49. I can attest to it because I know someone doing it. Hired the guy, brought him over,

have him living at an local employee's home, and they're having to teach him because he doesn't know what he's supposed to, but.... "he's so cheap? And he's stuck here with us pretty much 24/7 so we can work him till he drops."

[flamingdem]

50. Similar with the visual effects industry

but they try to be very positive about them, and yes the talent was lacking in the beginning but they are getting better (Puss 'n Boots).

I don't completely understand why they are so welcome but people who have worked with them are very positive in general.

The difference is that VFX companies operate on slim profit margins, so they can justify going and training Indians and setting up companies in India and all over Asia

[abelenkpe]

54. They are getting better

Of course when studios are willing to train them for more than a year (basically pay them to learn vs students in the west who go tens of thousands of dollars into debt to learn their craft) it's not really fair.
Wish our country would do something to counter the tax incentives. That might help.

[flamingdem]

65. Good point. They send the best people over to train them and then

pay them peanuts.

But as I said there's less resentment since that business is not a big money maker.

There is rebellion in the ranks over subsidies. Canada grabbed half the industry or more from L.A. with that strategy.

[snooper2]

52. also companies are "in-sourcing" again realizing it ain't all sunrise sending jobs to India

Costs become more then the number crunchers predicted, service quality goes to shit, and you spend more hours fixing things second, third and fourth times/releases.

I know from experience

Part's of our IT were outsourced to India, that lasted a year. Now they are outsourced but to CDW. One of the companies Oracle acquired recently went through the same thing experimenting with outsourcing code.


But you can't see this because you probably still have me on ignore from DU2

But if you can, ever get that new Tacoma you've been wanting!

[JoePhilly]

101. I posted a long response on exactly this point in the earlier OP on outsourcing to India / China.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=188155

The bean counters basically "lose count" after salary or loaded labor rate is calculated. From their safe perch, a bean is a bean is a bean. And you pay employees as few beans as possible, and their varied skill levels are irrelevant.

They don't see or understand increased project management costs, increased support costs, increased maintenance costs, financial losses associated with lost (aka, stolen) Intellectual property, or the costs of the very high turn over and training rates.

Penny-wise and pound foolish.

[dionysus]

55. is there anyone here who disagrees with that? if so, they obviously don't work in IT...

[DainBramaged]

88. I noticed our friends from the NRA stayed out of this one

too deep to fathom. They don't find HiB workers cleaning streets


yet

[Skip Intro]

58. K&R for defending your right to speak the truth as you see it. nt

[Bonobo]

63. And it's NOT just IT either.

Try doing a google search on "translation companies bangalore"

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=translation+company+bangalore&oq=translation+company+bangalore&gs_l=hp.3..0i30j0i22.2404.7552.1.8116.29.27.0.2.2.0.281.3860.1j21j5.27.0...0.0...1c.ddunLtphYu0&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=1856921b2f79275f&biw=930&bih=948

Their prices are ridiculous and it is impossible to compete.

Fortunately though, their quality is shit, but it still takes away business.

[antigop]

64. India has the most recipients of H-1B visas

http://www.rr.com/finance/finance/article/rr/57120512/73258626/US_Companies_Hiring_the_World_s_Geniuses

India has by far the most recipients of H-1B visas, with 58% of all acceptances. China and Canada follow with 8.8% and 3.5%, respectively. Two thirds of the LCAs are for positions in science, technology, engineering and math, while only 5.4% of jobs in America are in these fields, based on 2010 data.

[Canuckistanian]

66. The Indian IT revolution...

Wouldn't have happened without the express efforts of corporate interests in America.

The famous H1B visa, the outsourcing of call centers.... Let's not kid ourselves, this was a deliberate move to drive salaries down for highly skilled workers.

And the race for the bottom continues apace.

[ZombieHorde]

68. Why are the citizens of one country more deserving of jobs than citizens other countries? nt

[L0oniX]

71. Did you forget where the internet came from???

[ZombieHorde]

84. Al Gore.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

[DainBramaged]

83. Americans deserve jobs in America if they are competent to perform those jobs

The airlines have been outsourcing maintainance of their planes to non-unon mro's. Many are outside the US.


I have not flown since 1997 because of that one fact.



http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/flying-cheaper/story/outsourcing-airline-maintenance/

[ZombieHorde]

86. Don't Indians deserve jobs in India if they are competent to perform those jobs? nt

[DainBramaged]

87. Why do they deserve our jobs? Why can't they create their own jobs form their economy?

You are fighting a losing battle with me. OUR JOBS are OUR JOBS. Period


If you sympathize with the plight of the Indian worker, go there and organize them so that their COUNTRY provides them with better jobs,


It is NOT the responsibility of America to employ the world.

[Zalatix]

96. +1,000,000!

[ZombieHorde]

104. It is NOT the responsibility of America to employ anyone.

The abstract construct of boarders does not invoke the abstract construct of responsibility. Boarders and responsibility are not real things. They're just games we play.

[Union Scribe]

106. Sounds like free market propaganda. nt

[ZombieHorde]

107. Sounds like fallacious argumentation.

Sounds like labels are given more priority than content.

[Union Scribe]

180. Borders are real, as are the workers in them.

And when I see free market apologies fuck yes I'll "label" them as such.

[ZombieHorde]

187. I agree people are real, but borders are strictly imaginary.

Anything that only exists within the imagination is strictly imaginary. That is pretty basic.

[Zalatix]

139. Wow, nice anti-worker talking point there.

[ZombieHorde]

149. There is nothing anti-worker about my position.

I am just not anti-India.

[Zalatix]

153. Not anti-India, but rather Anti-American workers.

[ZombieHorde]

155. I don't recognize boarders as real things,

so to me, there are no American workers or Indian workers, just workers.

[Union Scribe]

181. And they all get fucked by the nonsense you spout

which is, in fact, the exact same nonsense that comes from globalists and free market hacks. Whether you refuse to acknowledge something as real doesn't mean anything in the real world, where there are real borders (not boarders) and real people screwing over the workers that live in them.

[ZombieHorde]

186. Sorry for the spelling error.

All borders are imaginary because they only exist within our imaginations. Borders do not exist outside of our imaginations. If all humans died today, then where would the borders be? Other inventions, such as books and pants, would still be around, but borders disappear with our imaginations.

globalists and free market hacks

I do not think labels make for convincing arguments. Do you? Do mere labels convince you?

real people screwing over the workers that live in them

I am all for the abstract concept of worker's rights, but I do not see any advantage to dividing up the workers according to the circumstance of birth.

[Aerows]

92. American citizens

that pay taxes in America are more deserving of American jobs. End of story.

[ZombieHorde]

105. Those jobs are no longer American jobs, they are now Indian Jobs.

So no American is loosing an American job to India.

[L0oniX]

116. Sounds like Repuke talking points to me.

[ZombieHorde]

120. Sounds like fallacious argumentation to me.

Sounds like labels are being held over content to me.

[L0oniX]

121. If you are for jobs going to non-US citizens you might as well go work for Robme.

[DainBramaged]

125. It's amazing, you think you know a member here, and BANG, BOOM, ZING

they shit in your glass and turn out to be corporatist.


As we say, American jobs, American workers, fuck the industries that take them from us.

[L0oniX]

129. ...

[ZombieHorde]

130. Personal attacks are easier than making logical arguments.

So I understand the temptation, but is that really all you have?

[DainBramaged]

132. Stop, whining like a baby doesn't score points

defending Indian jobs to this Union worker is tantamount to a personal attack

Have a nice life.

[ZombieHorde]

134. So, that is all you have.

How unfortunate for you.

Thank you for wishing me a nice life. I hope your life is nice well.

[DainBramaged]

138. Meh

goodbye

[Zalatix]

157. Ever wonder why people used to support offshoring, but now 90% oppose it?

We've heard your arguments a thousand times before.

History has shown them to be wrong.

We see through the nonsense.

[ZombieHorde]

158. Which of my claims are wrong?

Please quote the claim, and then demonstrate why it is wrong.

I have changed my mind many times on DU, and I am willing do so again if my position is demonstrated to be false.

[ZombieHorde]

131. Is that one aspect of one issue the only difference you see between

Romney and President Obama. Seems like you have not been paying any attention to the Presidential race.

[Zalatix]

140. They are American jobs.

Jobs serving the American market are American jobs. When sent overseas, they are STOLEN American jobs.

[ZombieHorde]

150. Stolen by whom? nt

[Zalatix]

154. Stolen by the Corporate elite.

Overseas workers are accessories after the fact.

[American Made]

166. Sounds like you are taking the Indian's side. If you like them so much why not move there?

[ZombieHorde]

170. I don't see the situation as American workers versus Indian workers.

I think people in both countries want good paying jobs which will support them and their families. All of the workers want the same thing, in my opinion.

The only difference between the workers is bureaucratic in nature. Citizenship is a matter of bureaucracy combined with circumstance.

[American Made]

172. See if you can go to India and get a job there or start a business.

When the playing field is equal, then you can bitch. Have a nice sheltered life.

[ZombieHorde]

177. First of all, am I an not the one complaining. I am the content one in this debate.

Second of all, the playing field will never be equal because people are not equal.

Third of all, I lack the money to go to India. I am unemployed. Also, the weather is too hot for my tastes.

Fourth of all, I am not sure what you think I am sheltered from, but I appreciate your desire for me to have a nice life.

Fifth of all, I am noticing a trend. My debate opponents don't seem to have arguments regarding this subject. Just lots of feelings and the desire for me to have a nice life.

[fascisthunter]

118. why is your life worthy while others aren't?

I dunno... but I bet only you could answer that.

Because it's you... your life... you get to feel the impact. Now think of your friends, neighbors and maybe even children who are losing jobs so some fuck head and investors can make more money off cheap(slave-like) labor. Can you empathize with that?

[ZombieHorde]

122. I can empathize with workers in most industrial countries.

My loved ones and I are no more worthy of employment than those in India.

[fascisthunter]

123. then why even vote or have a country

so you are willing to sacrifice your own children for a perceived child across the globe? Come on... I see what you are saying, but seriously??? It is all about enriching the already rich who ARE THE VERY REASON those kids in India are poor. You are just feeding into the system they set up... there is nothing altruistic about what you are saying.

[ZombieHorde]

133. I vote because that is one aspect of the system we have in place for creating desired changes.

I don't care about the existence of the abstract construct of countries. I would feel just fine if we used another system.

Your point about some profiting off the exportation of jobs is valid, but I would rather "fix" through taxes, rather than deny people jobs based on geography.

[Zalatix]

141. +1,000. One faulty argument stomped.

[arthritisR_US]

69. I understand your feelings on this but I think

your anger is misplaced. The oligarchs throughout the world have worked towards getting the peasants to eat their own. Throw us meager crumbs and watch us fight one another for them. Meanwhile, we take our eyes off of the true culprits who have orchestrated it all and whose greed and obscene wealth have come about at our expense.

[uponit7771]

72. True, the oligarchs enable the resume cheating

[AnotherMcIntosh]

76. Foreign IT workers "with questionable resumes"? Just wait until we discover how many doctors

from foreign countries in American cities have questionable resumes.

This can't just be an IT problem.

If you want to fake expertise in a field with a resume, why not fake having an M.D.? Why not learn the buzz words? Why not learn the standard responses to predictible ailments? Won't the drug salesmen help? As well as some people with medical information?

How can the problem of questionable resumes from foreign countries just be an IT problem?

[jeff47]

103. Because they check MD degrees before issuing a license.

No licensing for IT. And it's arcane enough that the non-technical management can't figure out if anyone's lying on their resume.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

108. That's adequate? No one has ever practiced medicine without a license in the recent past?

[jeff47]

145. One of the few benefits of our private healthcare system

is that insurance companies won't pay unlicensed Doctors. So yes, it is possible to practice medicine without a license, but you're gonna get a lot less money. So it's much more rare than "practicing IT without a license".

[AnotherMcIntosh]

146. You're wrong. Those who create fraudulent credentials from foreign countries are not going to

inform insurance companies that they have done so. Once their fraudulent resumes are accepted by hospital administrators or others, the insurance companies are not going to conduct independent investigations.

I'm raising the issue of fraudulent medical resumes involving paper credentials from foreign countries as something that should be investigated. I am raising the issue because it is inherently unlikely that IT resumes are the only resumes involving false representations.

In contrast, you are implicitly saying that we should neither be curious nor call for investigations of inflated medical resumes because of your purported knowledge that somehow they would receive less money from insurance companies.

You are claiming, "So it's much more rare than 'practicing IT without a license'." But you don't actually know that. You don't have any facts to support that, nor do you have any facts to believe that no one should be curious about nor call for an investigation of medical resumes.

You certainly don't have any factual basis for a belief that medical resumes involving credentials from foreign countries honestly represent what they assert.

[jeff47]

162. Insurance companies don't just trust the fake doctor.

Neither do licensing boards. They ask for things such as transcripts. And while I can print up a fantastic-looking fake transcript, I can't mail it from the university's mail room, nor can I answer the phone if they call to confirm.

And no, I can't create "University of Elbonia" and grant myself a medical degree. Licensing requires an accredited US medical school, or a degree from a specific list of acceptable foreign schools.

In contrast, you are implicitly saying that we should neither be curious nor call for investigations of inflated medical resumes because of your purported knowledge that somehow they would receive less money from insurance companies.

Because we all know insurance companies LOVE paying. That's why they make it so easy for us to make claims. They'd never confirm that a doctor has a license before paying them.

But you don't actually know that.

Actually, I do. Because there's a license to practice medicine, and there is no license to practice IT. Getting that license requires proving you have a degree in ways that are difficult to fake. Getting paid as a doctor requires either getting cash from your patients, or getting paid by insurance companies that will confirm your license, in the hope that they won't have to pay.

Meanwhile, in IT I can claim damn near anything on my resume.

[liberalmuse]

78. They took our entire IT department a couple weeks ago.

And things have not been good. I miss our in-house IT guys and gals. They were all let go. Our software and servers have been crap ever since, and when you call them, they insist everything is working when it is clear it is not. It's not a good idea to outsource something so vital overseas.

[DonCoquixote]

79. It is not racism

To say that people have a policy of targeting American Jobs. These are the same people that are being outsourced to China as we speak. The problem is, while many of the Indians think this is globalism finally paying dividends, they do not realize that they are next on the menu, something the Adhurnti Roys try to keep pointing out. The IT industry is also a smokescreen to hide the fact that the country is still poor, and that the rich are even more arrogant.

[juxtaposed]

80. there's a longer video of this meeting I saw a few months ago but can't find it.

[aikoaiko]

85. They were offered jobs on a silver plated platter

I object to not placing blame where it belongs. I would have thought a union supporter would know better.

[progress2k12nbynd]

90. This is an interesting place...

I've seen DU'ers call posters "racist" and "ethnocentric" for condemning genocide because the murderers were non-white and we're not supposed to say anything negative abt another culture, even if that culture revolves around mutilation and massacre.

[Aerows]

91. I agree - you are telling it like it is

I'm in IT, and we all know it.

[AngryOldDem]

93. I agree.

But American companies are letting it happen, at the expense of competent work. The almighty bottom line, and not quality, drives business decisions these days.

Indians in IT are walking, talking examples of the adage, "You get what you pay for."

[LanternWaste]

95. I think the multinational CFO's are giving the jobs to the lowest paid employees they can find

I think the multinational CFO's are giving the jobs to the lowest paid employees they can find, rather than anyone "taking" them. Workers cannot demand jobs, therefore workers cannot take a job.

"Those of you who think it's racist to condemn the Indian IT industry for taking American jobs need to find another target before they find a way to take your job." Tolerance of race is not predicated on employment. I would think that believing otherwise is a "nice sheltered life" but go ahead and yell at other world-wide workers if it helps you validate yourself...

[backscatter712]

97. The Indians didn't steal our jobs. The 1% stole our jobs and gave them to Indians.

And Chinese and Mexicans and Burmans and Africans and so on. Where the labor is cheap and exploitable. And they're doing that to make workers here in the U.S. cheap and exploitable.

Our anger needs to be directed correctly - at the corrupt billionaires and psychopathic executives who made the decisions and gave the orders.

The Indians are just struggling to make a living like we're struggling to. The only difference is that their wages are lower, basic services are non-existant, so they're more desperate and thus more exploitable.

Remember your true enemy.

[closeupready]

98. I disagree that it is 'racist' to argue this point.

I'm not sure, however, that I agree entirely with your actual point/argument, but it can be a valid, well-founded argument.

I certainly agree that I am not happy about NAFTA or "globalism" or many of the other features of how business operates in today's world.

[JoePhilly]

102. The real problem is that the corporations are GLOBAL, and the workers are "country bound".

Let me explain it this way.

When I was a kid, I lived in NE Philly. My family had lived there for about 3 generations. My mother and father attended the same grade school that I attended. I grew up in the home my father grew up in. After he died, my mother, my sister and I moved into what was the home my mother grew up in, just 4 city blocks away. Our relatives all lived in walking distance. No one ever moved away.

I went to St. Joe in Philly. Lived at home and commuted.

After I graduated, I was accepted to graduate school in Texas. Which means I left Philly. From there, I moved to the DC area for my first job, and now I live in NC and I have a fairly successful career.

The point is, I MOVED from PA, to TX, to MD, and then to NC. I was willing to change states to get a better education, and a better career, and a better standard of living.

But I did all this INSIDE the US borders. I've already started to brce my kids for the possibility that they may need to travel farther from their home town than I did to find work or a career.

The global corporations are going to chase cheap labor from country to country for the next 40-50 years. And just like I had to leave Philly, my kids will probably have to be ready to move too ... but probably beyond the US shores.

The corporations do not care if the standard of living in the US drops. They see that as a natural. At some point, the standard of living of all workers world wide will be the same, and the corporate mindset's goal will be to keep that standard as low as possible.

Poor compliant workers are the best kind. They can't just go find a "better" job. They are stuck.

[datasuspect]

111. duh. global wealth of the 1% has no allegiance to country or flag

race to the bottom, intrepid souls. race to the bottom.

[cecilfirefox]

117. Your not incorrect, at all. Sometimes people get a little to 'pc'. nt

[fascisthunter]

119. wow... "PC"... like original mannnnnn...

what does being "politically correct" have anything to do with this?

[LanternWaste]

156. So you believe that workers have the ability and the strength to "take" jobs?

So you believe that workers have the ability and the strength to "take" jobs, rather than management handing them to whomever they see fit to...?



Sometimes people get a little too "dogmatic" (six of one, half a dozen of the other...)

[upi402]

124. Asia will not let you work there. They fail to HATE THEIR WORKERS apropriately!!!!

Much of the world protects its nation state and its people.

We are run by parasitic sociopath corporations who will kill the host. They can't be imprisoned for their crimes and are NOT people.

[me b zola]

126. Its not that you are entirely wrong, your lens is just a bit out of focus

Allow me to show you what stuck out of your post for me:

they find a way to take your job.

Your post makes it seem (although I do not believe it is your intent) as though it is the people of India to blame and not our own trade policies. I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment that we need to stop cutting the legs out from under our workforce.

[fascisthunter]

127. dude... don't feel guilt

the wealthy and the rich investor's as well as their loser troll are making wealth of of this shit more so than the Indian workers ever will.

[Zax2me]

128. Nope. Wrong. People like Rmoney are SHIPPING them out.

To the lowest bidder, American jobs be damned.

[RZM]

135. It's a cold, hard world out there. I make no apologies for wanting Americans to have jobs

Especially jobs with American companies. Any American company that is looking to fill jobs with non-Americans because they are cheaper is much more loyal to the dollar than the flag.

I don't necessarily think that should be illegal, but there's nothing wrong with calling people out on it. Many wealthy folks are happy to get wealthier by passing over their fellow citizens for people who will work for less. To the extent that there are sides in this thing, I'm sure as hell not on theirs.

[FarCenter]

136. North Korea is a new outsourcing destination

Business and Outsourcing in North Korea: Interview with Paul Tjia

http://www.nknews.org/2012/07/business-and-outsourcing-in-north-korea/

One advantage is that you can depend on North Koreans to stay on the job, instead of hopping from one company to the next as in India.

[ZombieHorde]

137. North Koreans need jobs very badly. nt

[Zalatix]

191. So do Americans.

[rock]

152. Yep

Them's the facts.

[EnviroBat]

159. 1000000% agreed.

In fact, I was recently part of a panel interview for a new candidate, (from India). His interview skills were weak, and his answers were evasive when it came to answering slightly technical questions. Myself and one other person on the panel were completely opposed to hiring this guy. Well he's been working here for about a month now. He possesses NONE of the skills that he represented himself as having. Basically, we hired a resume padder...

[sarcasmo]

165. Kick!

[rufus dog]

167. To add

The process creates a horrible fucking strain on the Indian resources also.

These COCK SUCKING, MOTHER FUCKING, PIECES OF SHIT, INDIAN OWNERS of outsourcing companies abuse the shit out of the people they bring over. Basically the workers are indentured servants working off the travel and training over many years before they can actually start to have a decent life.

So I agree with your overall premise, but want to have a laser like focus on the scum of the Earth on the U.S. side and the scum of the Earth on the India side that allow it to happen and prosper off of laying off workers and abusing the replacements.

[treestar]

178. If you were an Indian, wouldn't you take the job?

I could see blaming the companies, but the workers are doing just what we'd all do in the same circumstance.

[DainBramaged]

179. Do you see the word industry there?

Don't try to twist what I wrote around. I will repeat one last time, when the playing field IN INDIA is equal for me so I CAN GET A JOB IN IT there, buy a gas station, Dunkin Donuts or 7Eleven, there won't be an issue. But I can do NONE of the above so I guess we're at an impasse.

[limpyhobbler]

185. Wait are you saying you tried to buy a gas station in India but got denied?

Hard to believe. I thought there were tons of American businesses operating over there. Hotels for one I'm sure. Also there are many American owned factories there. So there is probably nothing stopping you from buying a business there. I could be wrong but that doesn't add up for me.

[DainBramaged]

188. If it doesn't add up, why not investigate it for yourself?

Last edited Sun Aug 12, 2012, 03:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Only this year for the first time were foreigners allowed to invest in the Indian stock market.


"I thought there were tons of American businesses operating over there"


Sure, major corporations that produce for the Indian marketplace per their rules and needs. None of those corporations are named Schmo's Gas or Zippy's 7/14

•Agilent
•Agro Tech
•American Express
•Amway
•Avaya
•Caltex
•Caterpillar
•CB Richard Ellis
•Cisco
•Citigroup
•Coca Cola
•Cognizant
•Colgate Palmolive
•CSC
•Cummins
•Discovery
•Dupont
•EDS
•Eli Lilly
•Emerson Electric
•EXL
•Federal Express
•Ford
•Franklin Templeton
•GE
•General Motors
•Gillette
•Honeywell India I
•BM
•Intel
•Johnson & Johnson
•JPMorgan
•Kellogg India
•Kimberly Clark
•Kodak
•McDonalds
•Metlife India
•Microsoft
•Morgan Stanley
•New York Life
•Ogilvy and Mather
•Oracle
•Pepsico
•Pfizer
•Pizza Hut
•Sun Microsystems
•Texas
•Tecumseh
•Timex
•Tyco
•UPS India
•Visteon
•Whirlpool
•Xerox Modicorp


And do you think a majority of the workers are Americans?

The question is why don't Americans,you and I, invest in convenience stores, McDonald's, Burger King, and gas stations there when we don't even do it here?

Franchising opportunities in India

UTurn vending machines
Cigies vending machines
Subway

http://india.franchiseopportunities.com/


Know what it says in virtually all of the categories it lists?

There is no franchise listing in this category now


India protects it's retail business from foreign investment unlike the US. India protects it's retail environment unlike the US. And since investment in the US is allowed, they have dominated the motel/hotel, gas and convenience franchises since the 90's. And destroyed the IT industry for Americans.


Google is your friend.

If you read the opinion pieces from there, the vast majority ENCOURAGE US investment, they call it, economic welfare.


Courtesy of our shitty trade agreements.

We can't get our families to run local businesses and you expect us to run them there? Or more to the point, afford the franchise fees which foreigners somehow always can afford.

Have a nice day.

[limpyhobbler]

192. Wait so now you have a problem with Indian motel and gas station owners?

Don't they meet your definition of American?

So you have three targets:
1) The indian IT industry - I guess that's like for the offshoring/outsourcing problem.

2) The Indian H-1B imported workers, who you call "job stealers"

3) The Indian-American owners of hotels, motels, and quicky marts.

Seems like your target keeps changing. The only thing that stays the same is Indian.

I don't even disagree with you on some of the policy issues. But I think you go right up to the line of being racist and would go over the line if it were acceptable.

If you are American and want to move to India and open a restaurant, hotel or gas station, go right ahead nobody is stopping you. Incorporate in the US and establish an Indian subsidiary. Pretty sure you have never tried to.

You seriously decided Americans are not allowed to own business in India because of a website that said there is currently no franchise available for U-Turn gumball machines or Subway sandwich shops? Your dream is to move to india to open a sandwich shop? Sounds insane.

A lot of the economy there is informal. Go ahead over there and buy a building and open your sub shop. No one will probably even notice or care. You might have to pay a couple bribes. Don't drink the water.

[DainBramaged]

197. "But I think you go right up to the line of being racist and would go over the line"

No. Wrong, by a LONG SHOT.


See that little icon in my profile, the one that says UAW? Know what that is? Good. We've fought the bashers and scumbags and corporatist apologizers for most of my adult life, those of you that DON'T GIVE A SHIT about whose job it is as long as it's for the lowest price, and if I didn't belong to the UAW, I'd still feel the same way. We're teetering on being taken over in this country by the 1% FROM EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, and I'm right up to the line of being racist?


American jobs for Americans. I'd cancel all of our trade polios and rewrite them to benefit us, the US. I worked for the Japanese when they went through their little buying spree here. And I TREASURE the Japanese made products I still own because they so far surpass the quality of the SHIT made in China today. YES, I KNOW the Canadians and the English own tremendous numbers of businesses here, BUT THEY DON'T BRING IN BOATLOADS OF PEOPLE TO TAKE OUR JOBS. That's the difference, something you obviously don't understand. OUR JOBS. Not for the lowest price, but for a living wage. We aren't sending people to India to fill low wage positions there either. The corporate divisions and subsidies, I can assure you, 99.9% Indian labor force, and they certainly aren't allowing US workers to work there.

Why doesn't India have an H1B program if they are such a fair country? Of course they don't, they would never allow one.


And if you don't LIKE that I'm an American for American jobs, three words, You know what I'm telling you. I will not be a part of the race to the bottom like so many of you want to be.


Have a nice life.

[limpyhobbler]

203. I'm more interested in why your ranting has expanded to include Indian-American hotel owners.

It's awesome as long as everybody agrees with you. Anybody challenges your ideas a little bit and you get mad and start slinging the caps lock around like a baby.

My great grandparents moved here from Italy and opened a gas station and an ice cream shop. They were harassed by anti-immigrant assholes for driving down wages in the coal mines and steel mills.

They organized and fought for a better life together with others, even though they all came from different countries and spoke different languages.

For all your supposed union cred and fighting for workers, when have you ever once mentioned that there ought to be solidarity among both Indian and American IT workers, here or abroad?

Instead you have expanded you circle of attack to now include Americans with the wrong ethnicity, obviously because they came from the same country that you are so emotionally fixated on.

Wearing American flag underwear does not give you immunity from criticism. And neither does displaying a UAW avatar on an anonymous web forum.

I have the highest regard for the UAW. Your anger towards Indian-Americans, and imported temp workers is not very classy. I don't think it represents the UAW well.

I probably agree with you on most of those policies. But you flirt with racism and anti-immigrant sentiment as part of your expression of why we need those policies.

[DainBramaged]

204. Well, personal insult aside, the difference between your Grandparents (and mine too)

is they STAYED. They didn't come here for three months or six months or a year and go home, they STAYED. Indian IT workers aren't interested in solidarity with us, they want to make money and go back home.


But that unimportant, your personal attack changes everything.



Rather than sling mud back and forth with you, I'll just say goodbye. I didn't attack you, so if you think attacking me scores you points, good. Discussion over, think what you will, I don't give a shit.




Merry Christmas


One last thing (besides the fact I have put you on ignore) you disgrace your Grandparents comparing their journey with the race to the bottom of today's wage war you so heartily endorse.

And regarding my representing the UAW, at least I have a Union to be proud of. Today the low-wage poachers you endorse are still scabs in our book.

[limpyhobbler]

205. No explanation? What do you have against Indian-Americans who own local shops?

Last edited Sun Aug 12, 2012, 10:16 PM - Edit history (1)

After bringing that shit up it's not surprising you want to cut the conversation on the subject.

You did attack us all when you started making race and ethnicity an issue with the motel and quicky-mart owners. Also when you targeted your anger at Indian workers instead of wealthy owners. That's my understanding of solidarity.

I agree with you on some of the policies about protecting American jobs, and stopping H1B type of programs. We have enough race hate and anti-immigrant feeling in this country already. So please wipe your feet at the door and don't drag that dog shit into our labor movement and the Democratic party.


====

Editing to reply to your edits:

you disgrace your Grandparents comparing their journey with the race to the bottom of today's wage war you so heartily endorse.

No they would be proud of me for standing up against race baiting and anti-immigrant sentiment.

And regarding my representing the UAW, at least I have a Union to be proud of. Today the low-wage poachers you endorse are still scabs in our book.

So are you claiming to represent the UAW? It is certainly not the policy of the UAW to say that anybody who comes over here on a work visa, or works for lower wages is a scab.


A scab is a strikebreaker or someone that refuses to join a union.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scab

The UAW also wouldn't endorse your race-baiting of quicky-mart owners. You don't know shit about me or what union I've been in, or organizing work I've done, picket lines I've been on and what happened there.

Targeting your anger at the H1B workers and small shop owners is race-baiting.
Disgusting.

[OhioChick]

206. You bring up a good point in regard to staying vs leaving the US

India sending 30 Billion home

In India, these decisions have raised hackles. India's IT sector is
seen as a source of national pride - an area where Indians see
themselves as competing successfully on the global scene. Moreover,
the millions of Indians living overseas send back more than $30
billion a year in remittances, making up 3 per cent of the country's
GDP, according to estimates by the International Labor Organization.


http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/07bpo-worries-grow-about-obamas-outsourcing-policies.htm

That article is from '09, so it's safe to assume that 30 Billion is a much bigger number now.

I guess my point is, the money made isn't being circulated back into the US economy, but rather being sent offshore. You've made some interesting points.

[DainBramaged]

207. As I wrote earlier, we had 20 living in an apartment in the building across from me

The town does monthly inspections for lease fraud, if your name isn't on the lease you can't live in our apartments. They've had a LOT of problems in the past. One night as I came home, half a dozen police cars, the sheriff's department, and some vans all over. Standing on the lawn, over a dozen Indian citizens with pillowcases with their personal belongings. They along with the leaseholder, evicted. There were 20 mattresses/ pads/ mats in a one bedroom apartment. From talking to the apartment managers, none claimed permanent residence here.



That's the difference today. When my Great-Grand parents came here in the early 1900's, they came to stay. Those that think we should allow this while we suffer 8% unemployment are a disgrace to the Party and a disgrace to America.


Work here live here stay here. Raise a family. Don't use us as a bank.




Thanks for the link. I hope the apologizers enjoy it.

[OhioChick]

208. I see your point entirely

I've heard the same from friends that work at Microsoft regarding 20 people to an apartment. Frankly, I've heard worse from them.

Quote: "That's the difference today. When my Great-Grand parents came here in the early 1900's, they came to stay. Those that think we should allow this while we suffer 8% unemployment are a disgrace to the Party and a disgrace to America."

You're absolutely right.

[DainBramaged]

209. Those that come here make a minimal contribution to our economy

1) They take our jobs

2) They send their earnings back to India

3) They share resources here to maximize the return of earnings home


When you ask them if they are going to stay, you either get a blank stare OR told flat out India is their home. My long passed Dad and his best childhood friend BOTH quit school before they were 16 in the 30's and started a house painting business. And they worked together till my Dad died 27 years ago. His best friend and partner died right after my Mom three years ago. Their parent's were from Eastern Europe. They didn't come to send money back there, they came here to LIVE. The land of opportunity. Today, we're an ATM for the World's workers.


They need to stay and become part of the fabric that made America great, not jet commuters.

[limpyhobbler]

210. Placing the blame squarely on the migrant workers again.

Blaming them because they applied for a job and accepted it.

Are you seriously claiming that if they planned to stay in the US then they would be fine by you?

You know they are only here on temporary work visas, coming from third world conditions, how the heck would they ever come up with the idea of not filling out a job application ?

Instead of blaming the migrant workers and calling them scabs, why don't you focus your rants against politicians and industries in both countries that are screwing all workers.

[treestar]

199. Then you need Indians to take the jobs to rise higher and demand more

The reason you can't do those things in India is that there aren't any such things in India. The whole reason they get the jobs is that their entire economy is such that they can live on far less than we can. That's why they will do the work for lower wages.

[DainBramaged]

200. So it's OK to lower the wage standard here, turning the US into a third world country?

And you are right, there are no such things in India because their COUNTRY has failed to provide them with enough jobs to make India a desirable place to work.


They don't live on any less here, unless they live 20 to an apartment (which happened here) and they were evicted.

Please defend their practices to someone else. Or at least to another corporate apologist who condones outsourcing of America.


Have a nice life.

[treestar]

201. It's OK to raise the Indian wage standard

So that this no longer happens (the disparity). Their "practice" is to take jobs that improve their standard of living, so I don't see any way to fault them for that. We'd do the same in their position.

[DainBramaged]

202. Not with our jobs

you don't get it at all.

[JonLP24]

182. I think you need to find another target

Because the current system is bad for all workers, including the Indian IT. The policies put forth by American politicians & American businesses that advocate for them are the targets.

[twins.fan]

183. Offshoring to India and the H1b visa

The mechanism of transferring jobs and entire workplaces to India is a process called Knowledge Transfer (KT) and progresses as follows:

1. Hire Indian H1B body shop like Infosys, Tata, Wipro etc perform IT duties.
2. Layoff half of your IT workers and have the remaining train the IT staff of the H1B body shop.
3. Once the employees of the H1B body shop is trained, release the remaining US workers.
4. Dismantle US operations and reassemble the operations in India.

This process has played out thousands of times all across America, and now is playing out at Harley-Davidson.

[MNBrewer]

184. The company I used to work for toyed with it

The definitely brought in the Indian IT people! Also tried to off-shore some of the other functions, but it was a total SNAFU! Naturally.

[DainBramaged]

189. Where I work now they have been constantly approached

I even get phone calls from them asking for meetings to tell me how much more efficient and cost effective having THEIR staffs manage our IT functions will be.


My argument has and will always be, who do you want as your gatekeeper?


It wins every time.

They no longer entertain changing.

We have a word for them


Poachers.

[twins.fan]

198. +1! - I like your passion on this issue!!!

[HipChick]

190. indians are not to blame...blame the greedy US corps looking to keep costs low

[twins.fan]

193. The Indian H1B body shops are Indian

The Indian H1B body shops are Indian and are doing every thing that they can to discredit US STEM workers in whatever way that they can.

[HipChick]

194. A lot of the firms are global, Indian companies have been buying out US companies

[twins.fan]

196. With ill gotten gains, Indian companies are buying out other companies