OWS' need to connect...and how?

[FirstLight]

I am a huge proponent of the Movement, believe me. It amazes me how many people are still holding the OWS'ers in contempt, Maybe I am naieve, but I thought this was about helping ALL of us?

Whether it is stratification in the workforce or society or what, there are more people than we know who are really thinking it is all a waste of time. The MSM has been hard at work making it more about the 'inconvenience' to the others who are just trying to live their lives.

Just tonight, went to the corner store for a pint, the guy there is moving to Portland...
I excitedly said, "Awesome! Occupy Portland rocks... those people are great." (because I have been watching the livestreams and the way they are working together, and respecting the process, and also because there are a few DU'ers here that are from there, and I adore them)

he said: with a cynical laugh... "THOSE people need to just go away...my girlfriend lives up there and she is warning me that they shut things down, they screw things up in traffic...they are a pain in the ass... I understand what they mean to do man, but they are just screwing it up for people who HAVE jobs because they don't WANT to work."

WTF!?
I was shocked and tried to be calm in defending the movement but let it go without knowing what to say next. I tried to say that we are changing the world so tu will cause inconvenience...he said peaceful protest is great...but it doesn't do anything but make it worse for the rest of us...blahblahblah

Are you guys hearing these comments from others? What do we say to remind folks we are ALL corporate slaves, whether we are in dire straights or not THIS month...next month it could be you...and it needs to CHANGE
How do we get the rest of our 99% to realize they are not as good off as they think they are?

...*sigh* late nights rants...let's see if you guys get what i mean... lol

[FirstLight]

1. "OWS tactics are hurting the message"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210016

ya...how do we fight this meme? This is the kind of stuff I am talking about

[TheWraith]

2. It's not a "meme," it's the facts.

Check the public polls for support of OWS if you don't believe it.

Just because you think something is the right way to go about things doesn't mean it's ACTUALLY the right way. OWS has been doing itself tremendous damage, and it appears set to continue that way, not least because of the attitude expressed in the OP: that anyone who objects to the disruptions is brainwashed or the enemy, and the holier-than-thou attitude that infects a lot of the true believers that they're so much better than the people who "don't get it."

[The Doctor.]

5. It's a "même" reinforced by "the facts". After that it's all a matter of confirmation bias.

It's one of those sweet spots (or gaping chasms) in human psychology that is easiest to exploit. Once a person has made a decision about something or taken a position on an issue, they suddenly become more open to information that supports that position and averse to information that detracts from it... as you are no doubt aware.

The media has effectively swayed people to believe that OWS is behaving worse than they really are. Now people that expect to see aggression, squalor, and obstruction will. Unfortunately, there is just barely enough there to give truth to the même.

[TheWraith]

25. That works the opposite way, too.

People who want to see OWS as a ideal, noble movement with perfect tactics dismiss and deny anything which goes against that. Right here on DU not too long ago I was told that a 19 year old girl who reported being raped at an OWS demonstration was "obviously" a paid shill sent to "discredit the movement" because nothing like that could EVER happen at an OWS rally.

[The Doctor.]

27. I thought that was implied.

'The opposite' would be 'counter-biased perception propagation'.


People Do get raped in other venues and events as well. Should all of those be banned as well?

[bigmonkey]

23. "The Facts" is a meme

It's meant to shut down discussion, limiting it to the parameters the person utilizing it has set.

[TheWraith]

26. No, it's called objective reality.

You're entitled to your own opinion, not to your own facts.

[bigmonkey]

31. The mere facts in the study you cite don't support your opinion as "fact".

That's my point. Clearly you can't be suggesting that you are a source of objective, factual opinion. The use of such terms in this way is polemical, not objective.

[dkf]

3. Practically anything that screws up traffic is worthy.

That doesn't mean people love it.

Traffic sucks.

[pinboy3niner]

4. OWS IS connecting

This is a real populist movement--against our financial and political plutocracy

From Occupy Wall Street to Occupy Nation in just two months


Americans who flew bombing missions in World War II had a saying: "You know you're on target when you start getting a lot of flak." The protesters in today's nascent "Occupy Wall Street" movement must really be on target, then, because--boy!--they're enduring an unrelenting barrage of rhetorical flak from political and media defenders of America's plutocracy.


At first, the Loyal Defenders of the Plutocratic Order simply tried to ignore the youthful protest that had sprouted on September 17 in a plaza next door to Wall Street. But the occupiers, who were remarkably proficient in social media, spread their story and the visuals of their occupation to millions who tuned in on the web. This generated support from all over, and many more people began trekking to New York to join them. Surprised and alarmed by this inflow, the L.D.P.O. tried to cut it off by firing rounds of mockery at the protesters to make them look frivolous--a September 23 New York Times piece, for example, snickered that this "fractured and airy" movement was just a "carnival" of bored kids adrift in an "intellectual vacuum." Their cause, opined the writer, was "virtually impossible to decipher." Already, she declared, the movement is "dwindling."


Sheesh, so snarky. And so wrong. In fact, the group's core message of "enough is enough"--a call to rebel against rampaging economic injustice and rampant political corruption foisted on us by the richest one percent--was resonating among young and old, the poor and middle class, and it was spreading like wildfire throughout the country. Occupy Boston took root on September 30; Occupy Denver, Miami, Portland (Maine), and Seattle on October 1; Occupy Atlanta, Austin, Chicago, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Portland (Oregon) , and San Francisco popped up simultaneously on October 6. Within three weeks, there were more than 200 Occupy cities and towns, ranging in size from Philadelphia to McAllen, Texas.


Suddenly, with thousands of fed up Americans in the streets, linking together through a network named OccupyTogether.org, the principals of the Plutocratic Order were getting antsy. "Is this a big deal?" an anxious Wall Street CEO asked a reporter. "We're trying to figure out how much we should be worried about all of this. Is this going to turn into a personal safety problem?" (You see, it's always about them.) As the jitters of the elite edged toward panic, the L.D.P.O. rushed out its big guns, firing volley after volley of flak at the occupiers, most of it comically absurd:

...


http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/2822

[Luminous Animal]

33. Very good. Thanks!

[applegrove]

38. very powerfull piece. Thanks for posting it.

[Edweird]

6. Your concern is duly noted.

[backscatter712]

28. ++.

[FirstLight]

7. seriously?

How many folks here think i posted this to bash the movement? no, i am truly interested in how to have the conversation with friends and family who say that this is not working or that the movement is BS...

I have a small occupy in my town that I am involved with, less than a dozen people.

but my actual interest is how to REACH OUT to those who think they are better off and therefore don't count as the 99%...(apparently even the local convenience store guy...)

I want to be better informed, and yes, i read the stats and can use some of those facts to back up the reason for the movement.

But my original post is about how to redirect the conversation when someone has a preconceived notion that the movement is making waves and that they should be good little protestors and stay in their 'free speech zones'

[leftynyc]

8. Precisely why I usually just read these

threads and don't participate. Any criticism of the messengers (not even the message) will bring out the "you're a right wing troll" nonsense out. Support for the cause was never high and it's not because of the message (which has high support).

If I had to listen to drum circles all day every day, I wouldn't listen to the message either.

[mmonk]

9. Time is what the movement has on its side

unless it is forcibly wiped out by the corporate state. The movement doesn't have a media channel it can hold and discuss views, therefore it is being defined by the corporate state media. But lies can't hold sway forever.

[FirstLight]

10. thanks

I appreciate an answer that doesn't automatically lash out...
and yes, we have time, next spring and summer will be very telling.

It just amazes me the way people say they hate the corporate world we live in, how so many say they want change..."but just don't inconvenience ME to make that happen!"

[mmonk]

14. They recognize some problems by the symptoms

but do not recognize the severity, how much has really changed, and assume things will take care of themselves eventually. They lack a final realization probably due to the nothing's wrong appearances of message and behavior of uninformative media.

[OneGrassRoot]

12. Here's another one of my pie-in-the-sky ideas....

There are captive audiences in physician's offices and other businesses and gathering places. They have TV's but are usually playing Fox or CNN.

Wouldn't it be awesome if OWS made use of the community access channel? Show videos and things like we share already about OWS and the bigger picture, with pertinent news items, and have local people discussing their specific OWS movement and GA news and such.

I am sooooooo craving a media venue that is made up of panels of regular people, NOT professional media personnel. I can't even bring myself to watch Keith and others on Current, even though that is a much better media outlet than MSM.

I really want a grassroots, regular citizen version of "The View" or something. Everything else we're bombarded with has an agenda of some sort. With Skype and other technology it seems like such a gathering of people in some recordable format (as well as live) should be possible.

Real people, talking about real issues.

Thanks for the OP, FL!

[mmonk]

15. That would be nice and I share such a dream.

The only stumbling block I see is making it viewable on a mass enough scale. Maybe you can figure that out and a way to link it all (productions).

[FirstLight]

18. hehe

i guess you will need to explore yet another aspect for Wishadoo!

[coalition_unwilling]

11. Invite them to attend a local General Assembly. I can almost 100% guarantee

they will experience a form of egalitarianism that will be the equal of any they have ever experienced previously.

Some people find such egalitarianism frightening, others (like myself) find it liberating. But it's an experience not to be missed, this feeling of having your voice heard and considered at the same level as that of the gazillionaires.

Excellent OP, btw. K&R for the excellent discussion it has engendered.

[FirstLight]

16. exactly

but again, to go to a GA, many of those I am talking about would have to actually break routine or take off of work or something 'inconvenient'

Now I understand why Al Gore named his book "An Inconvenient Truth"...because it *IS* inconvenient to change this world....

[renate]

13. there was a story on the radio yesterday about how Occupy Portland closed down some port terminals

It was probably on KPOJ (the progressive station), although it might have been on NPR. (In other words, it wasn't on some Morning Zoo-type program or anything like that.) It wasn't a long story but they quoted people who pointed out that dock workers are part of the 99%, and they're being penalized by the shutdown of those terminals--the dock workers had been told to stay home, and they weren't going to get paid.

That pissed ME off, and I support Occupy Portland 100%. I don't think that was a helpful move at all. Sure, the dock workers should have been paid because the circumstances were beyond their control, but they weren't--and those are real people's lives being affected negatively. I think being vocal about the principles of the 99% movement, rather than obstructing ordinary people's ordinary routines (because the 1% can afford to simply avoid any of the inconvenience), is a much better approach. Most of the 99% will be open to at least considering the message if the messenger isn't interfering with their lives.

[mmonk]

17. Victories are seldom won without sacrifice and a willingness to fight for better.

Being vocal hasn't worked on the widespread attack against American workers.

[JDPriestly]

20. The protests at the docks are trying to point out the fact that dock workers

are often classified as independent contractors. The truckers have some sort of sham purchase of the truck they run -- I don't know whether it is a lease, but it is something of a sham. Because they are independent contractors, they do not have the rights of employees -- although they really are employees.

Sometimes they are not allowed to join a union -- because they don't qualify as employees.

They can sit around for long periods of time and not collect any pay.

Yet their pay is in many cases barely enough to live on.

The truckers can't strike openly because they will lose their jobs, but their working conditions are just a great example of what is wrong in the American workplace today.

Besides -- what are they doing? They carry some of our products to the ports, but mostly they transport stuff we buy from other countries and should be producing ourselves.

We need to stop and ask why the multinational companies are still importing so much cheap, slave-labor-made junk into our country when so many Americans are out of work? How do we adjust our tax system and reform our society so that Americans have work and the opportunity to earn a decent living.

The international business done at our ports is a big problem for us. As a nation, we simply cannot afford to import more than we export at this time when we supposedly owe so much money.

[bigmonkey]

24. This is a recipe for self-marginalization.

"Be vocal, but make sure you are completely ignorable". I can sympathize with the pressure to live an efficient life, but convenience is actually the gradient that the 1% uses to keep everyone in line, by making political progress consistently inconvenient, and keep it that way. How can a completely ignorable message break through that wall?

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Two points

1.- That was SSA Maritime. I dutifully transcribed that statement from the local PIO.

2.- Media, even "progressive media", is conservative in this country. NPR is the worst offender.

I actually wrote down who gave me that line. We also reported it was in support of ILWU.

[Remember Me]

37. No, when they're told to stay home for safety or health reasons,

which this was, they DO get paid.

[JDPriestly]

19. When someone says that OWS is using the wrong tactics, just ask the person what tactics

OWS and the rest of us should use.

We tried voting. It didn't change much of anything.

With a few exceptions, our congressional representatives only know us or meet with us if we pay for a ticket to one of their fundraisers.

How are we supposed to be heard without literally camping out in the streets? Is your friend really satisfied with how things are going?

Is your friend just an "I've got mine. Why should I care about you?" type of person. If so, there is nothing you can do but remember that he probably needs a little inconvenience in his life just to remind him that he is part of a society not just some Ayn Rand hero.

The point of OWS is that a lot of people are being left out because they can't be heard, they can't get jobs, they don't have decent places to live. That's what you need to tell someone who complains about OWS. OWS is there to remind us all about the fact that we are ignoring huge problems in our society.

If your friend wants to continue to have a job to go to, he needs to pay attention to what is going on beyond the 9-5 routine in the world of those excluded from the 9-5 crowd. He could be the next to be unemployed and unable to find work. He could be next to find himself out of a place to live. He could be next to discover that his company has been bought out and he has to either move to India or get another job that does not exist.

[FirstLight]

21. BEAUTIFULLY SAID!!!!!

This is exactly the point i was trying to make...those who HAVE jobs think that the OWS people are just mad cuz they can't get jobs or 'don't wanna work'...what most people in the working world don;t get is that they are really just a very small step away from the same fate.
and what about the poor kids who go to YEARS of school and rack up thousands in debt only to be met with NO opportunities?
and what about those who should be retiring, but have lost savings because of the 2008 crash and bust, they played by the rules, and now have to go back to work...taking jobs that could go to someone who needs to feed a family...
then again, like $10 a hour will even feed or house a family these days.

i voted and campaigned, but over the past few years I am realizing more and more that there is a Ruling Class, it's not just R or D. they are all gaming the system, and in turn making US the paw3ns and I am right there with you...tired of it!

damn skippy we should be in the streets! ...i can;t wait for the warmer weather so we can really make some waves!

[AntiFascist]

30. +1

The 1% driven MSM will continue to try to marginalize the OWS movement by defining it by failed tactics and negative characterizations of its participants. Utlitmately, the movement is about the 99% being oppressed by the 1%. This statement can take any form we want it to because "WE are the 99%".

[NNN0LHI]

22. Need to narrow the focus to one issue

Civil rights movement succeeded because they focused on civil rights. Anti-war movement won because they focused on trying to stop the war.

If OWS had chosen one single issue like say, anti-nuclear, I would have been out demonstrating with them.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Part of this is the very conservative, elite driven, media.

Compare and contrast...foreign media comprehensive day blogging...conservative American media...biased reporting to none at all.

[randome]

34. Do you really think the media controls how DUers think?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Actually to a point yes

Like marketing it works in insidious ways. We have anything ranging from pretty overt propaganda, see fox, to soft core propaganda. There is a universe of facts that even NPR ignores.

For example, how much of the conservative media even mentioned WHY people where out there in the middle of a pacific storm? Background for this is extensive, but mostly ignored, except by mostly foreign media.

You might want to google project censored, and ask why those stories, it's published every year, are ignored by the American Elite media? It takes work to find the background of most of these things by the way...work that news models, controlled by powerful transnationals don't bother doing. They are not encouraged either.

[themadstork]

43. that and thought generally needs a sort of factual "canvas" to work upon

no one has an opinion in a vacuum. if you can limit the range of facts a person is exposed to you can indirectly limit the possible number of opinions they hsve in response.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Exactly

Why it's insidious.

[mvd]

36. I think the OWS movement started out right

They have shifted the dialogue despite the media reporting negatively from the very beginning. Maybe the same way was unsustainable due to the winter, conditions of continued gathering, etc. They can stage targeted protests and maybe a lot of versatile occupations where there is mild weather. The "inconvenience" mentioned by some shows this country's me-me-me attitude. Though the "inconveniences" should be focused on the 1% as much as can be.

[U4ikLefty]

39. The civil rights movement got the same type of commentary...in the beginning.

The OWS movement is not going to be extinguished by a few nasty words.

Solidarity

[FirstLight]

41. thanks, good to hear

some other references and positive feedback. OWS is a broad based need for change, we can't afford to focus on *just* one thing, because to many systems are in dire need of reform... and yes, we will also require different tactics as we evolve too...

solidarity indeed!

[U4ikLefty]

46. The great development here in Occupy LA

is that the raid only made us stronger.

What was learned in those two months in Solidarity Park was in preparation for what you see now. No other time in my life have I seen such a beautiful sharing of ideas & REAL democracy in action. We had come together & learned a lesson about the power of the people.

The raid of Solidarity Park only allowed the movement to go out into the streets and spread. There is so much going on that I can hardly keep up with a 9-5 job, but I do what I can to show up & be involved.

And let me assure you that the Occupy movement has many issues, many actions, and many tactics. The people are talented, passionate and dedicated. We are not a one-trick pony.

[FirstLight]

47. ...

KEEP ON Keeping On! I tell ya I have never been this inspired by my people.

I do believe that unity is a good place to start, and things will only get better because we *do* have the best minds & hearts in this movement!

[themadstork]

40. Not neccessarily a bad thing

I mean, sure, he's spewing the standard reactionary swill (A+!) but he's clearly been exposed to the movement in some way, and it's affected him deeply enough that he takes a fairly strong (absurd but strong) position on it.

Not all the work of influencing public opinion and resetting the conceptual framework is roses and baby butts. The abolitionists were often mocked as impractical unserious ridiculous etc. etc. etc. by slavery reformers who advocated the much more popular (and seemingly sensible) view that black americans should be re-colonized to Africa (!!!!) following their emancipation. How far would we have been set back if the Hard Line Abolitionists had played the pussyfoot polite-society game and withdrawn their contention that not only should the slaves be free, but they should be free Americans? - that this is also their Home?


We are accused of breaking up traffic - they were accused of trying to break up the UNION for the sake of their silly egalitarian views.

Sometimes all one can do is make their case with coherence, generosity, and persistence - and accept that they cannot control others' opinions.

[FirstLight]

42. last sentence

too true! thanks...

I guess part of my Original question was 'how do you and I each form our arguments to get our message across without sounding trite, contentious or doing the movement a disservice?'

But maybe that's why we are here, having these very same conversations with fellow DUers... and realizing that some folk will always have certain opinions, and they may be diametrically opposed to my own.

[themadstork]

45. I wonder about the same thing every day.

And you know, on days that I'm willing to accept the responsibilty that such a thought entails, I think that the most persuasive thing a person can do is to engage in a version of the ethical appeal. If I think about all the times I have been deeply persuaded, the logic and overall tightness of the person's argument played a role, sure, but the thing that first plants that seed of openness to persuasion more often to not has nothing to do with the argument at hand. My buddy Mike's writings converted me from politically apathetic to liberal/leftist years ago, and while he's a brilliant writer, part of what had me so open to his writings was the fact that he seemed like such an vigilant, aware, and deeply caring person - and part of me wanted to be like that. I mean, that has nothing to do with what he was arguing, no? I can barely remeber the substance of most of the articles - but I had seen him act out of a place of extreme love and vigilance before, and this added something to the words.

I see it too in some of my favorite writers. William Vollmann has written things that normally I wouldn't think twice about, or even care at all about. But I've read his novels and I know the weird things he does in them - he's shown himself to be a writer of inordinate thoughtfulness and follow-through, perhaps even to the point of near-lunacy. And because of that I feel safe enough to trust him, lower my standard cynical defenses.

This is uncomfortable though because it means that if I expect people to be open to what I say or think or write, I have to "earn it" in a way that implies a lot of hard work, in the sense that acting attentively and humanely can be hard work . . . and so sometimes I just accept I'm probably a hack and zone out to some crappy CBS sitcoms. . . or whatever. . . because really, who am i kidding

[mdmc]

48. ..