No, you don't qualify for that job

[BBGC]

I am amazed at the number of people who want to blame H1B visa holders (and others) for "taking their jobs".

The fact is, H1B visa holders are highly skilled workers who are among the most talented and brightest. These are not people who have the education of an 8th grader being shipped over to stock shelves at Wal-Mart. No, these are people who hold advanced degrees in some of the toughest STEM fields. We are talking medical doctors, researchers with doctorates, computer scientists with graduate or higher degrees.

In order to qualify for an H1B visa, a company must have been unable to find a person with the required KSAs. Once an H1B visa is issued, the prevailing wage must be paid.

According to the US Census bureau, in 2009, out of the entire population of the United States - the educational levels are as follows:

17.6% of the population holds a bachelors degree.
7.2% holds a masters degree.
1.9% hold a professional degree.
1.2% hold a doctorate degree.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/p20-566.pdf

Those are the true numbers, as sad as it may be.

Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with masters degrees for jobs that require masters degrees when only 7.2% of our population holds such a degree is ridiculous.

Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with professional degrees (attorneys, medical doctors, scientists) for jobs that require professional degrees when only 1.9% of our population holds such a degree is absolutely dishonest.

Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with doctoral degrees for jobs that require doctoral degrees when only 1.2% of our population holds such a degree is absolutely insane.

The fact is, unless you hold a PhD in biochemistry, that H1B holder who is a biochemist did NOT take your job.

The fact is, unless you hold a PhD in mechanical engineering, that H1B holder who is a mechanical engineer did NOT take your job.

The fact is, unless you hold a masters degree in chemical engineering, that H1B holder who is a chemical engineer did NOT take your job.

Not only do these people hold advanced degrees, they are at the top of their class. We are talking the top 5-10% of those who obtained those degrees.

The vast majority of H1B holders fall in to the categories above. Are there H1B holders who have slipped through the cracks, or companies that have abused the system? Absolutely. The fact remains, however, when only 1.2% of our population holds a doctoral degree.... well, when companies need someone with a doctoral degree, it is probably a legit complaint that they sometimes won't be able to find such a person and will need to bring someone in from abroad.

I would suggest that instead of attacking people (who coincidentally happen to be brown) who have managed to reach extraordinary educational levels, we find ways to encourage our students to reach those educational levels. Not only encourage it, but make it a possibility.

Like the President recently said in a speech, he is trying to make this a possibility.... but our students are going to have to work for it and compete with others around the world. Sitting around complaining because we are being outclassed by other nations isn't going to fix the problem.

Furthermore, I am very grateful for H1B holders who are here working at our universities, hospitals, and technology firms who are working to solve some of the biggest problems facing humanity today.

I am graduating from undergrad at a state university this fall. (extremely probably magna cum laude with a 4.0 GPA in my last 60 credit hours) I intend to be one of the 7.9% of our population who completes a graduate program. I am extremely grateful for the opportunities that have been afforded to me, which include pell grants and subsidized student loans. Maintaining an extremely high GPA has been incredibly difficult. I have worked either full time or part time all through undergrad in a public sector job. I owe a great deal to society, and I intend to give something back to society once I have completed my education.

However, I am not naive enough to believe I qualify for the majority of jobs in my field after undergrad. Nor am I going to blame the F1 (student visa) student next to me who graduates summa cum laude if she gets into a graduate program I am rejected from. I should have worked harder, and I have no one to blame but myself. I congratulate her, and I hope she goes on to invent a cure for cancer. I am not going to be a crab and pull her down simply because I didn't reach her level.

[BBGC]

2. I was born in the United States

Denial is certainly ugly. (and racist)

[rfranklin]

6. I have no idea what country you are from...

But you seem to be here to propagandize as a corporate shill in defense of imported workers. Many of the H1B workers are brought over to work at rates that are less than what would have to be paid on the open market. There are tons of Americans who could do those jobs already or with minimal training. The corporations do not want to train people, it costs money. Unless we are now globalists, every effort should be made to move Americans into those jobs as long as the corporations want to take advantage of being in the USA.

[rfranklin]

19. Employers can make up the "prevailing wage" on their Labor Condition Application...

Employers have two options that they can use to specify Prevailing Wage, they can check the box for "SESA" or "Other". If they check "SESA, then they must comply with the National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates. The loophole in the H-1B law is right on the LCA. If they check "Other" they can specify any survey they want to, even their own. The DOL said that they don't verify the "Other" surveys so "prevailing salary" is anything the company says it is.

[rfranklin]

25. Feds Bust Nationwide H-1B Visa Scam

Federal authorities have busted an alleged nationwide H-1B scam ring, arresting 11 people in seven states and bringing a 10-count indictment against a New Jersey IT services company. The indictment charges Vision Systems Group with one count of conspiracy and eight counts of mail fraud and seeks $7.4 million in forfeitures.

The individual arrests were carried out Feb. 11 by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, Texas, Pennsylvania, Kentucky and New Jersey.

According to Matthew G. Whitaker, U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Iowa, the federal investigation involves companies that sponsor primarily H-1B nonimmigrants. Vision Systems and five other companies under investigation have said their H-1B workers have been brought to the United States to fill existing IT vacancies. Whitaker claims the companies have not always had jobs available for these workers, placing them in nonpay status after they arrive in the United States.

In some cases, according to the charges, the H-1B workers have been placed in jobs and locations not previously certified by the Department of Labor, replacing qualified American workers and violating prevailing wage laws. The companies and foreign workers have allegedly submitted false statements and documents in support of their visa petitions.
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Feds-Bust-Nationwide-H1B-Visa-Scam/

[rfranklin]

44. Report finds fraud in 20% of H-1B applications

Report finds fraud in 20% of H-1B applications

Federal investigators discovered fraud in more than 20 percent of applications they examined in which employers were requesting H-1B visas...

By Lornet Turnbull

Seattle Times staff reporter



Federal investigators discovered fraud in more than 20 percent of applications they examined in which employers were requesting H-1B visas to hire foreign professionals in the U.S., a finding they called a "significant vulnerability."

In a report released late last year, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service cited one especially egregious case in which an employer petitioned for a business-development analyst position but later told investigators the worker would be doing laundry and maintaining washing machines.

The report's findings appear to vindicate some critics of the H-1B program, who have said the hiring of foreign professionals hurts U.S. workers.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008746255_h1bside15m.html

[Ruby the Liberal]

61. Don't forget this H1-B Scam

Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.

[progressivebydesign]

97. Ever deal with TALEO? I have a feeling that is what they use.

It' weeds out all but 10 or 20 of the applicants for any job, and the others never ever see the light of day on HR's desk. they are rejected immediately by the computer.

Now 5k of America's employers use it, and 50% of all Fortune 500 companies. It would be the perfect tool to use if you're going to scam the visas.

Taleo sucks big time, but that's for another post.

[Ruby the Liberal]

99. Please do PM me if you decide to open that topic.

A former company used Taleo, and I have some fun stories. One about an Exec applying anonymously for a comparable position with the company - one test of several before the contract renewed. Contract was not renewed. Heh.

Sometimes, the big boyz need to see what they have implemented for themselves before they make a decision on it.

If you want to chat about it, I'll dig up my notes from back then for the specifics. Cracking up just remembering the situation. That was a hella meeting.

[midnight]

126. After seeing this I will think twice about immigration attorney's.

Can't wait till Perm is used to replace these attorney's..

[twins.fan]

152. Seminars teaching employers how to exclude US STEM workers

Members of the AILA (American Immigration Lawyers Association) conduct these seminars and workshops teaching employers legal methods on how to exclude US STEM workers from employment because these lawyers are paid a bounty for every foreign worker that takes a job that would have otherwise been held by a US STEM worker.

[truedelphi]

144. + 1. And thank you. n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. Sorry you're taking so much flak

If you were an undocumented construction worker you would be the salt of the Earth. None of this union-busting, wage-suppressing guilt would be laid on you. Maybe that's the problem -- you have too many papers.

[Live and Learn]

102. That is not true at all.

Most DUers blame the companies, not the workers, in both cases.

[LanternWaste]

136. Hence the first response being "go back to where you came from?"

"Most DUers blame the companies, not the workers, in both cases..."

Hence the first response in the thread being "go back to where you came from?"

[justice1]

82. In other words, 72.1% of the visa holders have a low level of education.

[hughee99]

89. If I understand correctly, those numbers are for the US population in general

not H1B's.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Just a minute, man!

[rfranklin]

23. should I have said Unicornshit?

don't comprehend your post.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. The Lady would like to have a word with you --

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

[HiPointDem]

120. PhD scientists and Engineers = "the poor, tempest-tossed, huddled masses, homeless, wretched

refuse"?

Do tell.

India's jobless rate = 3.8%.

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-unemployment-rates-in-indian-states/20120710.htm

US = 8.2%.

[Zalatix]

121. Oh, snap. Another myth exploded!

Well done!

[Panasonic]

3. Let me know when you land a job

a REAL job.

I understand that the students finding a real job that matches their careers are pretty much slim and none in today's working conditions.

I don't know about DainBramaged, but I spent two months out there looking for jobs that fit me - found tons, and still continue to get tons - and I'm not getting hired. Why? Because they want fresh blood - and about 95% of the e-mails I get are mainly recruiters with Indian names which tells me that the IT industry are flooded with H1B's and keeping Americans out of a job. I thusly concluded that my skills must be outdated, outmoded and ancient since IT evolves very rapidly. So I got out of IT (not entirely, but we still have some support for several clients) and found a niche in a different environment.

Let me know when your starting salary range is over $55,000/year with full bennies and 401k's. That's what I had back in 2000, but I'm barely lucky to make ends meet.

[BBGC]

5. As I said

I have a job in the public sector. It is a "real" job, with a middle class salary and benefits. I am classified as an exempt employee. Need I say more?

If you are in IT that is certainly possible. Are your certifications current?

[Panasonic]

11. I have zero certifications

It's nothing but a piece of paper saying "I know how to do this".

Did I ever tell you MSCE := Minesweeper and Solitare Certified Experts.

That's how dimly I view these certificates.

And I do not have the money to spend for certifications, but sure damn wish I took advantage of Lockheed's education opportunities while I was waiting for my clearance to come through. I did get certified in Legato Networker, which was one of Lockheed's backup software, but useless anywhere else because Legato disappeared and became EMC, thusly making my certificate worthless.

Wish I had trained for Cisco's CCNA/CCNP certifications - did take the class, but did not take the test.

[BBGC]

13. Hmmmm

Let me see if I get this straight. You have no degree, no certifications in your field, and no recent work experience in said field. (which happens to be the rapidly changing IT industry)

Say that certifications are a "piece of paper" all you want, you won't get a job without them. Go get them.

[Panasonic]

18. Okay

Loan me $25,000 with no interest, for starters.

Then I'll go get myself educated on the latest technology.

[BBGC]

20. No problem

It's called a federal stafford subsidized loan.

With your experience, however, you should be able to easily get your certifications for perhaps $1000-3000.... And that is you go all the way and become CCNA/MCSA/etc. I used to work IT at a telecom before I went to college. It can be done.

[notadmblnd]

35. So you got your job without a degree?

Without that paper, how could you have been qualified?

[ET Awful]

65. I've been working in IT for over 20 years.

I work for pharmaceutical companies doing server administration, systems validation, PBX and VOIP administration, system security, among other duties.

I can command within spitting distance of a 6 figure salary. My total compensation package with all benefits and bonuses puts me very close to it.

I do not have a degree. I don't have any certifications. Guess what . . . I don't even have a high school diploma.

What I do have, is a proven track record of success in my field.

Another little tip for you - working in the pharmaceutical industry, I can attest to the fact that H1B visa holders are recruited ahead of their American counterparts not because they are better educated, but because they work cheaper. I've heard it discussed at all levels from people in the lab on up to HR.

[notadmblnd]

153. My reply to the OP was a facetious one

I also have no degree and worked in IT for 28 years. I know the OP is full of BS as do you and many others that grew up with technology

[notadmblnd]

32. If you are like me, you grew up in IT. I'm talking back in the 70's

I got my Certs at the school of hard knocks. No one knew anything, we learned it all on the fly and we were good at it. Was good enough to work for the same damn company for 28 years. Made 60k when my job went away. I was only 45, too young to retire. I still had tenure though, pension is only a year and a half away.

If Mr/Ms know-it-all OP ever obtains a real job in the private sector instead of sucking the government teet on easy street, he/she better be careful of their face, cause I'm betting it'll get slammed into the wall of reality pretty darn quick.

[truedelphi]

48. Very nicely put.

People in their twenties often don't understand that if a society does not value experience, but actually punishes experience, then they will be in short order, looking at diminished opportunities as they grow older.

I am only typing this right now because of a small business my husband founded back in the early 2000's. I used to gripe that it took my "Maui money" away from us (which it did - i still haven't gotten over there.)

But we now make roughly half what he made at his last "real" job. Although we don't have health insurance and certainly not paid vacations or holidays. It has taken ten years to get to this point, and I shudder when I hear people say, "If you are unemployed, start a business!" The time to start a business is WHEN YOU are employed, as how else can you meet the expenses a start up demands on a weekly basis.

It grieves me to think of how horrendous the economy is, and yet our leaders are totally into Globalization. It is all about the elected official rewarding his inner circle of friends. Too bad if kids out of college will never pay off their debts, or if those nearing retirement decide to leave the country. They don't care - they have gotten theirs by sacking the country. And I can't think of any solution.

[Iggo]

52. Well he's got you there. He did say that.

[twins.fan]

154. There are tons of IT shops that are >95% Indian

Take a look, if you get a chance, at Fannie Mae, the employer. They are almost 100% Indian. If you are a US STEM worker, you simply are not going to find a job there. The same can be said for the Wall Street IT shops. Those shops are almost exclusively Indian. Shops like that exist all over America.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Yuh, we iz too stoopid to compeet.

[truedelphi]

7. Please let me know how well your idealism holds up after a few years in the real world.

First of all,you have a degree. Congratulations.

Now you will learn about reality, something most ""educators" are loathe to teach their students.

Does your job aspirations include a research position inside a lab?

Well, consider this -that job is probably now in Singapore. If you managed to get some years under your belt studying Mandarin, there is a possibility that if you also got your grad degree in Business Administration, you might be pulled by an American-run company to supervise over in The Far East. If not, well you do know how to flip a burger and dish up fries?

I don't think it is about attacking people who are brown. Rather, it has come to a point in Reality 101 where many people are seeing that the employers in this nation are willing to absolutely gut entire disciplines in order to show how they are into "diversity" and therefore they simply MUST be hiring the foreign worker while avoiding paying top rates to American white, brown, black red and yellow skinned people, who are asking for a tiny bit more in wages and bennies.

[BBGC]

12. I am 28 years old

I have worked full time for the past 10 years. I have worked retail and I have worked for a major telecom as repair technician. I have worked in the public sector in various capacities.

"If not, well you do know how to flip a burger and dish up fries?"

Already did my time in retail, thanks. I know what it is like. I've moved on.

"Well, consider this -that job is probably now in Singapore. If you managed to get some years under your belt studying Mandarin, there is a possibility that if you also got your grad degree in Business Administration"

My graduate education will require a professional license in order to practice.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

15. that may be, however

my husband's cousin, born and bred in the U.S., got a lab researcher position at DUMC with only a Bachelor of Arts in Chemistry, right after she graduated from NC State last year. She was not an honors student nor did she do any internship or knew anyone on the inside. In fact, they were desperate for positions such as hers. She has already gotten promoted.

[truedelphi]

143. Like others on this discussion are saying -

The employers want "new blood. " The inexperienced who are taking a beginner's salary (which of course, after years of being in school and living on Ramen will seem like a fortune.)

It is however a sad fact that by the time you're in your forties, often your job goes by the wayside. You're offered early retirement, or else "laid off."

Due to research needs, as a indie reporter, I subscribed to the National Chemical Association's Magazine back in the 2005-06 period. And the numbers of people flooding that publication with their sob stories about what was happening to them as they approached their fifties inspired the editor to devote an entire journal to the situation.

Sometimes both people supporting the family had been laid off, with their jobs now in Pacific Rim countries. (For whatever reason it is not uncommon for laboratory chemists to marry one another.) These were people with double majors in undergrad schools, and sometimes double majors as Master's degree holders. And this was before the housing bubble broke, and the economy collapsed.


Of course, it is pleasant hearing success stories - about this one individual here, and that one there. But the fact of the matter is that there are far fewer jobs than applicants, and again, the brunt of the burden is being felt by those who are not in the top 10% of their class upon graduation (not everyone can be in the top 10).

Also the burden is felt by older workers, whose salaries have increased to the point that management sees their termination as a good cost cutting solution.

Currently the unemployment rate among those 16 to 26 is 54% !! Back in my day, in the early seventies, the big complaint among us baby boomers was that our huge size meant that those with PHD's in English were manning taxi cabs. But anyone who wanted work had it. Today the fact is that there are not the jobs there once were.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

9. Thanks, BBGC...

As the daughter of one such mechanical engineer, I thank you (though he had an E visa and not the H-1B). I went to a grad school that has a very large and well known medical university and hospital. Many of the outstanding professors there were visa holders. They were simply among the best in their fields.

One of the problems we are having at my current employer is filling high level marketing positions where the essential requirements include business-level fluency in one or more foreign languages and the cultural savvy to understand cultural differences. As yet, it has been impossible to find U.S. citizens to fill these positions. I have reviewed some resumes and even interviewed some candidates to test their fluency in my native tongue and I have yet to find someone who is able to converse or read or write without using a dialect inflection or sounding like a badly written Olive Garden menu or viewing Italian culture as something besides the Jersey Shore perspective.

As you said, fraud happens, just like it happens in every single thing that is done - whether it is a tax return or a food stamp request or public housing, etc. I'm not naive enough to know it doesn't happen in immigration as well. But, having worked in this field for 12 years for very large corporations as well as start-ups and universities, it doesn't happen as frequently as so many think.

To this date, my employer has several open IT positions for which they have been recruiting for a long while. In another post, I provided a list of the openings. If you live in Las Vegas or are willing to relocate here, let me know.

[Panasonic]

14. Hmm.. Las Vegas....

I'm in Denver.. telecommuting would make sense, since most IT operations are done remotely.

I do have a friend that lives in Vegas.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

16. None of the positions we have in IT is telecommuting

unfortunately, but let your friend know it's the largest private employer in Nevada and the benefits are pretty good.

[ohiosmith]

27. Wynn Las Vegas!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

139. Wynn only has a couple of resorts

My employer is the largest... You just have to add up all the properties and hotels. Hints: 2 letters M and one letter G

[enlightenment]

38. The largest private employer in Nevada is Wynn.

And they don't appear to be looking for anyone like you describe, in either Marketing or IT.

Care to elaborate?

[HiPointDem]

118. interesting.

[notadmblnd]

10. You need to sell it somewhere else.

[Zalatix]

127. Perhaps you should reconsider and look at all the recs the OP got.

Don't tell me you don't see them!

[notadmblnd]

128. Just because he got recs, doesn't mean he is right.

Any troll can get their troll pals to come on over and give their OP a rec.

On edit. My bad, you were making a joke. I get it.

[Zalatix]

130. No problem, I get got now and then, too.

It wasn't too many years ago that you'd get mobbed for calling bullshit on the H1B program.

My, how things have changed...

[snooper2]

21. ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Come to my in Texas and I'll show you where H1B visa section is in the office...

highly trained my ass

Some folks are really good at ping pong though Damn table in the breakroom

[Tikki]

22. That has not been my experience ..

A few, but not many...



Tikki

[gollygee]

24. I'm sure some are "highly skilled workers"

but as a whole the intent is to force wages lower.

[gkhouston]

26. How many Americans have trained their supposedly better-qualified replacements?

Qualified enough to train someone else but not qualified to do the job yourself?

Outsourcing and insourcing are all about money.

[gollygee]

28. Yeah, it isn't because there aren't any highly skilled workers here

It's because the highly skilled workers here demand a higher wage, and they can import people cheaper. I'm sure some of them are highly skilled, but so are the people they're replacing.

[DocMac]

53. Part of the problem is that

the recruiting agencies get way to much for very little. The corporations (clients) still pay a lot...say $120/hr. Now the recruiting agency wants to get as much af that billing rate as possible, so now they are like used car salesmen, trying to pay me the least amount as possible. They might hire me for $80/hr. and make that $40 left over, or they will try harder to find an H1B and pay them $50/hr.

Happens all the time!

[2on2u]

51. Ya mean like these people are going to do?

http://www.theskanner.com/article/Video-Illinois-Workers-Beg-Mitt-Romney-to-Save-Their-Jobs-2012-07-19

Workers at an Illinois factory, owned by Bain Capital LLC, are pleading with Mitt Romney to intervene and save their jobs. About 170 workers at the Sensata Technologies Inc., automotive sensor plant in Freeport, Il., are slated to be downsized when Bain closes the plant and moves production to China.

The presumptive Republican presidential nominee managed and was sole owner of Bain until 1999, but says he has no current leadership in the company. He remains the firm's largest shareholder, however owning a majority stake. Bain, a private equity firm that buys struggling companies and restructures them, took over Sensata in 2006.

Sensata employees took to the talk show circuit, appearing on two MSNBC shows: The ED Show and The Last Word.

Freeport Mayor George Gaulrapp told Industry Week that the workers believed Romney could influence Bain’s decision. "They realize this is an election year," he said. "They realize that Gov. Romney was associated with Bain, that he was their sole stockholder [until] 1999 and ran the company. So they know there's an opportunity to get some attention."

[Tom Ripley]

30. Go shill that garbage somewhere else

[xchrom]

31. you're spouting an awful myth -- there is no skills shortage.

http://www.cio.com.au/article/420695/there_really_an_it_skills_shortage_/


There is not necessarily an IT skills shortage, according to Andrew Cross, managing director of IT recruitment firm Ambition Technology.

Instead, the problem is employers narrowing their candidate requirements too much, he said.

“It really is much more a skills misalignment, as we were calling it, and that by just recognising if you look a little bit outside the box, you’ll probably solve your recruitment needs without having to offshore or go to alternative [means],” Andrew Cross told CIO Australia.

He said this disconnect is due to a gap in understanding on behalf of both candidates and employers. For example, employers are advertising for just Cloud, Big Data or mobility experts, but due to the relatively short timeframe they have existed, many candidates aren't considered "experts" or "specialists" in these areas.


http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/cio-insights/there-is-no-tech-skills-crisis-say-it-chiefs/39748489

There is no tech skills crisis, say IT chiefs

It often claimed we are suffering from an IT skills crisis, with employers struggling to find properly trained and experienced candidates to fill IT roles.

But could it be that the skills crisis is over - or perhaps was a myth to start with? Academics have pointed to a steady unemployment rate - and wages - among IT professionals, which suggests the skills shortage may not be as widespread as is often thought.

And when asked “do you think there is an IT skills crisis?” TechRepublic’s exclusive panel of tech leadesr voted ‘no’ by a margin of seven to five.

For many CIOs it seems that basic IT skills are easily available, even if they report candidates with cutting edge tech skills and business understanding remain in short supply.

http://business.time.com/2012/06/04/the-skills-gap-myth-why-companies-cant-find-good-people/

The Skills Gap Myth: Why Companies Can’t Find Good People

Read more: http://business.time.com/2012/06/04/the-skills-gap-myth-why-companies-cant-find-good-people/#ixzz235cFcNEn

Last week’s disappointing unemployment report has refocused attention on the question of why, despite modest signs of economic recovery in recent months, American companies aren’t hiring.


Indeed, some of the most puzzling stories to come out of the Great Recession are the many claims by employers that they cannot find qualified applicants to fill their jobs, despite the millions of unemployed who are seeking work. Beyond the anecdotes themselves is survey evidence, most recently from Manpower, which finds roughly half of employers reporting trouble filling their vacancies.

The first thing that makes me wonder about the supposed “skill gap” is that, when pressed for more evidence, roughly 10% of employers admit that the problem is really that the candidates they want won’t accept the positions at the wage level being offered. That’s not a skill shortage, it’s simply being unwilling to pay the going price.

But the heart of the real story about employer difficulties in hiring can be seen in the Manpower data showing that only 15% of employers who say they see a skill shortage say that the issue is a lack of candidate knowledge, which is what we’d normally think of as skill. Instead, by far the most important shortfall they see in candidates is a lack of experience doing similar jobs. Employers are not looking to hire entry-level applicants right out of school. They want experienced candidates who can contribute immediately with no training or start-up time. That’s certainly understandable, but the only people who can do that are those who have done virtually the same job before, and that often requires a skill set that, in a rapidly changing world, may die out soon after it is perfected.



Read more: http://business.time.com/2012/06/04/the-skills-gap-myth-why-companies-cant-find-good-people/#ixzz235cMvwhT

[backscatter712]

33. The H1B holders didn't take your job. The billionaires did, and gave it to the H1B holders.

It's the billionaire executive psychopath class that lobbied Congress, got the rules rigged in their favor, laid you off, hired that Indian/Chinese/Korean guy that gets half your salary, and threatens to have him deported if he complains about his low wages or bad working conditions, or tries to find better work elsewhere. The Romney-types came up with the weaselly excuses that left you unemployed, while the H1Bs got hired in your place, despite the government rules requiring companies to only hire an H1b if they can't find a citizen qualified for the job.

Remember the correct target. Don't blame your fellow working stiffs - that's what they want you to do. Blame the psychopathic billionaire 0.1-percenters who are using Indians, Mexicans, Chinese, H1b holders, "illegal" immigrants, etc. as pawns to keep you desperate, drive your wages down and make you just as exploitable.

[twins.fan]

155. Have you had your employment blocked by an Indian yet?

The H1Bs have moved into management now, and it is my experience that they consciously work against the hiring of US STEM workers for fear of the fact that hiring US STEM workers undermine their immigration situation.

Secondly, workers on H1B visas are submissive, unlikely to challenge bad management decisions. It is my experience that US STEM workers are more likely to challenge bad management decisions. Indian hiring managers want submissive Indian workers, not US STEM workers.

[rocktivity]

34. If the lack of higher-educated Americans is the problem

then the CREATION of higher-educated Americans is the solution.

If we had an educational policy/sytem that provided the training (and salaries) to people we need so badly we have to import them, we could have phased out H1B decades ago. Instead of investing in scholarships and proper equipment, we're too busy privatizing, cost-cutting, and attacking teacher unions.

Besides, shouldn't those other countries get to keep their own geniuses?


rocktivity

[Igel]

45. Importing foreign talent made American great.

Seriously. There have been waves of low-educated immigrants, and they have usually wound up in something akin to ghettos for a generation.

Then there's been a stream--sometimes larger, sometimes smaller--of educated immigrants with proven track records. Some fled repressive regimes; some just came for more money than they could have gotten at home and are willing to work for less than Americans. It's one reason that immigrants from some countries have incomes above the US average--and they're often from countries in Africa or S. America or even Asia.

As a poster above said, when it's an economic refugee working as in construction, that's one thing. When it's a programmer or network security person, it's another. If the other person's ox is gored, no sweat. But when it's your own, well, time to scream bloody murder.


Still, the program needs cleaned up. It's one thing to satisfy a supply-based need; it's another to simply cut costs.

[NutmegYankee]

47. They didn't come over on a H1B work visa,they came to immigrate here.

There is a difference. I had an Iranian professor who left home because of the 1979 revolution who is brilliant. He became an American, and I benefited greatly from his educational skills.

A worker on H1B eventually goes home.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

140. Actually, not true

Most H-1B workers want to get green cards (a/k/a permanent residence) to remain in the U.S. and most actually do so.

[truedelphi]

164. can I refer you to my comment, number 143 above.

What effect did it have on American teenagers in a household where both parents were laid off when the research jobs their parents formerly held went off to Singapore?

Seriously. What effect would this have? Should they really slave away for another dozen years, at undergrad collegfes and esteemed higher universities for their master's or PhD? Only to find out that when they are in their forties, no one will keep them employed? Or should they just get a degree in music recording or art, which they enjoy, rather than going the route of mom and dad?

[Posteritatis]

36. It's like this post is tailor-made to result in a xenophobia wankfest

Reminds me of how stupid peoples' reactions were to that mass power outage in India recently. Ugh.

[DonCoquixote]

40. there is xenophobia, but there is also

A genuine tactic my AMERICAN CEOS to use H1bs as a cheap labor pool, so that

A) they can pay less
B) have workers unwilling to protest for fear of backlash from both the corporation and their own governments
C) ensure that IT can never unionize

I do not blame the folks in Bangaldore, but I do see a problem, and one that CEOS are hiding.

[Zalatix]

119. Or it's likely to attract a lot of people who hate American workers...

[Posteritatis]

135. QED. (nt)

[HiPointDem]

123. unemployment in the US has been over 8% for years. in india, currently 3.8%. so why are

we importing labor?

to drive down wages and drive up unemployment.

[DonCoquixote]

37. BBCG, you are wrong.

You fall under the trap that these people get hired because they are so smart. The truth is, these companies know that H1-b workers are cheaper and more disposable. Their government pays for their education and insurance, and knows that, like many immigrants, they will send money back home, which relieves pressure on them. The governments can also use them as a means to delude the masses into thinking they have a shot, so, like the American middle class, they go to their pens. Unlike the old fashioned immigrant, these folks intend to go back home, taking from America, but still working for the motherland. It also helps that these people are in no position to rock the boat, seeing as how they know they can be sent back at a whim. This cheap, disposable labor has also helped to keep the IT industry from being unionized, so that employers can pay less and work people more.

[NutmegYankee]

39. There's 1000 more qualified American engineers for every H1B "engineer".

What a crock. The problem is an American engineer wants $60,000 to $120,000 a year for their talents. The H1B "engineer" will provide their substandard services for far cheaper.

Thankfully, to sign off and stamp a plan, an engineer must have a professional license. This limits what an H1B "engineer" can work on.

[Aerows]

43. Exactly - qualified people

They don't want the $8/hr job that unqualified engineers can do. Qualified people refuse to do a $30/hr job for less.

It is as simple as that. If you want a worker that does a $30/hr job, you pay them that. Otherwise, you get unskilled people that barely speak English to do a sweatshop job and you suffer the lawsuits they cause.

[unblock]

41. like most controversial positions, this is a half-truth.

there are certainly SOME jobs openings out there that have trouble finding the right person with the right qualifications in the right area, and it can be difficult to fill those spots without going to an h1-b.

HOWEVER, it is undeniable that there is a large price differential between most immigrants, especially those in need of a work visa, compared to citizens or permanent residents. therefore there is a large incentive for employers to do what it takes to fill a spot with an h1-b instead of a citizen/permanent resident.

tricks employers use include overstating the required qualifications. for instance, i can assure you that there's not an programming job in the world that REALLY needs an master's degree. i have one, and it helps on the resume, but i've interviewed enough people to know that the value of a master's degree itself is dwarfed by many other considerations.

but most employers realize that if they claim the job requires a master's degree, they're in a position to reject many citizens/permanent residents in favor of an h1-b. that doesn't mean the americans weren't qualified for the job, it just means they were more expensive.

[Igel]

46. Yes.

The program serves a real need.

The need is amplified by rigging the requirements to guarantee that you won't find an American citizen that can do the job.

I guess that leaves open the question as to whether you want the best possible person for the job or somebody who's qualified and no more.

[unblock]

49. in properly functioning markets, you don't seek someone who has an immaterial qualification

in my earlier example, insisting on a master's when a master's isn't really a requirement is ordinarily bad business. it only makes sense when having a master's is correlated with needing a work visa and therefore being less expensive.

and no, having a master's doesn't necessarily mean you're the best possible person for the job. throwing in pointless qualifications just to make sure you get a non-citizen doesn't mean you're looking for the best possible person for the job, it means you're looking to run around the law in order to justify hiring a cheaper immigrant.

[BBGC]

54. You forget that a masters degree

Is sometimes a legal requirement for the job.

[unblock]

95. i was talking specifically about a masters in computer science, and i'm not aware of any job

where this is a legal requirement.

in fact, the only job i can think of where any master's degree might be a legal requirement in some jurisdictions would be k-12 education, and that would likely be a master's in education or child psychology or something like that. perhaps there are many more that i'm not aware of.


in any event, a legally required master's degree has nothing to do with my post. i'm only talking about employers concocting additional requirements in order to justify rejecting citizens/permanent residents in favor of h1-bs. if a master's is a statutory requirement for some job, this wouldn't apply.

[HiPointDem]

124. ooooh. a *masters* degree!!!!

[L0oniX]

50. Enjoy your stay.

What a huge pile of bull shit corporate repuke talking points!

[BBGC]

55. Life long democrat

And I find these xenophobic and refusal to recognize the value of education posts to be truly repuke.

[HiPointDem]

125. lol. yeah, that's the ticket.

[Ruby the Liberal]

56. Nice red herring.

Care to address the bulk of h1-b issues - which are spec coders and networking professionals?

Those who are paid for 40 hours to work 80?

Didn't think so...

[BBGC]

57. And?

I suggest you learn the difference between an exempt and non-exempt employee.

[Ruby the Liberal]

58. Gee George,

Maybe I need to burn my graduate degrees and start over, herp derp!

I suggest that if you want to launch on the concerns the American people have about the H1-B program - you address ALL of those concerns, not just present the visiting Professor and Surgical Resident angles.

Care to address the IT side of this issue?

[BBGC]

60. Sure

Right after you tell me why you brought up exempt versus non-exempt work rules in relation to H1B visas as if the two were synonymous.

[DocMac]

62. You haven't graduated yet?

What do you know of H1B visas? What actual experience do you have?

[BBGC]

63. Worked with them when I was a tech at AT&T

Also am a business minor and learned about them academically.

[Ruby the Liberal]

67. Lemme get this straight. You worked with an H1-B once and are a college student,

so feel qualified to belittle and lecture the fine folks on this site about H1-B, the lack of qualifications of Americans for the jobs, and the lack of their worth because they don't have graduate degrees?

Am I up to speed yet?

[BBGC]

70. Worked with lots of H1Bs

And learned a great deal about them in college.

Of course, I am talking to a person who tried to make some wacky argument about exempt vs non-exempt employees and H1Bs. I would suggest you enroll in a university and take some business classes. Perhaps you would learn the basics of the FLSA and the INA.... as well as how they do and do not relate to each other.

FYI - 6 credit hours away from graduation, 4.0 GPA in the last 60 hours.

[Ruby the Liberal]

76. LOL. Okay, I see your "I worked with LOTS of H1-Bs and am in college"

and raise you a business owner with an MBA and a Masters in Economics.

But you are right, perhaps I should "enroll in a University and take some business classes".

[Tunkamerica]

149. lots? well, that's different.

someday you'll look back on the 22-yr-old you and shake your head.

on edit: Just read you're 28. You probably never will realize how ridiculous you sound. A lot of the posters here have degrees, advanced degrees, phd's, and real world experience. You have none of that and presume to speak to people you don't know like they are somehow less intelligent because you're about to get a bachelors at 28? Please.

[DocMac]

71. Good luck.

Better think about that big head you have before you actually graduate.

[BBGC]

73. I never said I was qualified either

In fact, I said in my OP I wouldn't qualify for most jobs either.

[DocMac]

81. Perhaps those H1B workers you sat next to

impressed you. That's ok and you should learn what you can. Ten years from now, someone might sit next to you and be impressed.

You might feel different in a year about your OP.

[NutmegYankee]

87. What is it about Business Major types...

that makes them believe they can say who is qualified for STEM jobs? Seriously? Why should a Mechanical Engineer respect you? I have found that the root of most engineering failures was a business major screaming about schedule and cost trying to look good in managing a project. They seem to believe that they are superior to engineers and can direct or force engineers to approve whatever they want.

I have a message you might want to learn now as it will help you when talking with engineers- Either demonstrate that you know the math and science (as in took the classes and learned the physics) and can argue the issue technically, or shut up and let the adults deal with the technical issues. Weak engineers can be forced to comply, but good skilled and qualified engineers will stand their own. You will have better luck pushing rope. It's a professional duty - a code of ethics.



"It is a great profession. There is the fascination of watching a figment of the imagination emerge through the aid of science to a plan on paper. Then it moves to realization in stone or metal or energy. Then it brings jobs and homes to men. Then it elevates the standards of living and adds to the comforts of life. That is the engineer's high privilege.

The great liability of the engineer compared to men of other professions is that his works are out in the open where all can see them. His acts, step by step, are in hard substance. He cannot bury his mistakes in the grave like the doctors. He cannot argue them into thin air or blame the judge like the lawyers. He cannot, like the architects, cover his failures with trees and vines. He cannot, like the politicians, screen his shortcomings by blaming his opponents and hope the people will forget. The engineer simply cannot deny he did it. If his works do not work, he is damned...

On the other hand, unlike the doctor his is not a life among the weak. Unlike the soldier, destruction is not his purpose. Unlike the lawyer, quarrels are not his daily bread. To the engineer falls the job of clothing the bare bones of science with life, comfort, and hope. No doubt as years go by the people forget which engineer did it, even if they ever knew. Or some politician puts hs name on it. Or they credit it to some promoter who used other people's money . . . But the engineer himself looks back at the the unending stream of goodness which flows from his successes with satisfactions that few professions may know. And the verdict of his fellow professionals is all the accolade he wants." Herbert Hoover

[Tunkamerica]

150. Not any job where you have to relate to other people.

[Ruby the Liberal]

66. Shit on a stick. Okay, Sparky.

SInce you have now challenged this twice:

Exempt = salaried.
Non-Exempt = hourly.

Now that we have moved past the HR 101 definition that most of us learned when we were 19, can you address the question?

[BBGC]

72. So you provided an elementary answer

Go read the FLSA. It's a little more complex than that, but I suspect your google search only yielded the gist of it.

[Ruby the Liberal]

78. In response to a 5th grade level (repeated) question.

Now, where were we?

Oh, I remember - the MBA was asking the "I once worked with an H1-B guy" to expound on the differences between the US need for services for Surgical Residents v IT generalists and Spec Coders.

Ready for that, or do you still want to play HR glossary?

[Ruby the Liberal]

92. Nothing?

[Vanje]

93. Patience!

Give him time to look it up in the text book.

[Ruby the Liberal]

98. Not paying attention to the time.

I guess the library is closed.

[limpyhobbler]

59. There is not a major skills shortage. There are tons of unemployed & underemployed software people.

Even if there were a shortage, maybe a sensible response would be to train people locally.

Industry really is jumping for the cheapest option.

I'm not blaming the immigrant workers, but really the owners and the industry.

The workers are coming over just like the Chinese when the railroads were being built, or the Italians and others in coal mines.

And apparently they are facing the same type of backlash.

Oh well

[OhioChick]

64. BS.

Some of these are older articles, however I see it everyday.

Quote: "The fact is, H1B visa holders are highly skilled workers who are among the most talented and brightest."

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html


Quote: "the prevailing wage must be paid."

That's not entirely true.....

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

H-1B visa holders paid less in US

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/NM16/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

Only 25 % IT graduates readily employable: Nasscom

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-04-07/news/29392668_1_engineering-colleges-employability-study-nasscom

Senator Schumer: H-1B use undercuts pay, discourages tech enrollments

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9180646/Senator_Schumer_H_1B_use_undercuts_pay_discourages_tech_enrollments

The the senators (Durbin & Grassley) wrote, "We are deeply troubled that DHS has no idea how many H-1B visa holders are working in the United States at a time when millions of Americans are unemployed."

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207458/Senate_s_H_1B_foes_begin_new_attack

[BBGC]

68. While some of your sources appear legit

This one ""We are deeply troubled that DHS has no idea how many H-1B visa holders are working in the United States at a time when millions of Americans are unemployed."

Is complete BS. US Citizenship and Immigration Services knowns exactly how many H1B visas have been issued.

Here is a report directly from USCIS with the exact number for 2010:

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/FY10H-1BSpecialtyOccupationalWorkers.pdf

The exact number of all outstanding H1Bs in 2010? 192,990.

[truedelphi]

165. Thanks for the links, OhioChick. n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

69. Seminar for employers: How to fake job ads to get those cheap H1-Bs approved

Compliments of H1-B attorneys, Cohen & Grigsby

Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.

[BBGC]

75. Doesn't this prove my point....

that qualified applicants in the US must be found first?

You point to a group of criminals looking to skirt federal law. That doesn't change the fact that it is unlawful to bring in an H1B worker without having exhausted attempts to find a worker state-side. I would say your video demonstrates a need to step up enforcement of the existing law.

[Ruby the Liberal]

80. LOL! You didn't listen to the video, did you? Heh.

Okay, I know you are a busy "college student", so let me put it in simple terms for you:

"To save money by hiring a benefit-free H1-B IT-generalist employee, you need to prove that you can't find local employees who are qualified, so make a newspaper ad that Steven Hawking himself couldn't qualify for, then send that list to our law firm so we can tailor the resumes - this way, you cover your ass and save BUNDLES by not having to pay full price, or offer benefits, or pay payroll taxes"

You are welcome.

[gollygee]

83. I hate how college students think they know everything.

And I was a college student once upon a time so I get it. But it's infuriating. You're at the beginning of your life of learning, and you aren't as far along as everyone else, when you're at that place in your life.

[Ruby the Liberal]

88. Yeah, been there.

We all thought we knew more than everyone else back in those days. Some of us may not have known at the time that we had years to go before we launched on others who had been there before, but sat back and asked questions anyway. Others opened their mouths/keyboards as experts and proved themselves a fool.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" - President Abraham Lincoln

[Hassin Bin Sober]

100. The only point it proves is you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Those "criminals" felt comfortable enough to say that shit on tape. Why? Because you and your ILK give them cover.

A company doesn't have to "exhaust attempts" to find an American worker. They just have to run an ad. You are too fucking naive to figure it out.

[Ruby the Liberal]

101. Now, now.

He doesn't have ilk yet. He is just studying for his BS in ilk.

[gkhouston]

107. Your ignorance is appalling.

It's a BS in il. You need a master's to add the k.

[Ruby the Liberal]

108. Not surprised coming from you,

Doctor.

I stand corrected.

[gkhouston]

109. Bwah!

This is what you get for playing with your food.

[Ruby the Liberal]

110. Guilty as charged

and good point! I would love to have my MA Econ changed to MA Plays-With-Food.

Think I could submit Thanksgiving dinner's Turkpeamashedpotatoyams for a thesis, or would this thread do?

Miss you - and your humor - alot.

[gkhouston]

112. Miss you, too. I wish you were going to be on next term.

I knew a girl in college who still did the plays-with-uneaten-food thing. Every. Single. Night. She married someone rich and is quite well off, now. I wonder what her Junior League luncheon buffets are like...

[Marrah_G]

74. Your post, in case you didn't know, is full of RW talking points.

[Kennah]

77. Mitt Romney thanks you for your support

[sendero]

79. Wow..

.. you are one naive puppy. Libertarian by any chance? Whatever, I no longer even bother responding to this kind of idiocy with any facts, clearly facts are not what you deal with.

[MNBrewer]

84. Canada gives preference to Canadians in hiring

at least for academic jobs. Why can't the US do the same? The HB1 shills such as Bill Gates are robber barons.

[Shade7M]

85. I Smell Trollshit...

Ok, lemme see if I can get the gist of your argument...

We people just aren't good enough, we never will be good enough, if we don't get the high-paying job it's because we're not good enough and we don't deserve it. We should be thankful for whatever scraps our lord and masters the "job creators" toss in our unworthy direction. We should just bend over and take it, and quit whining. That's just the way it is, life ain't fair, blessed be the name of Corporate Jesus.

Oh, and it's all just sour grapes on my part for posting this, because deep down inside I know I'm just not good enough, and that it's all my fault...

But fuck off anyway, Trollshit.

[Skittles]

114. certainly it is propaganda

there's just no qualified people here so we have to import them! It is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

[ChromeFoundry]

86. Yawn

Thanks for the "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps" post. Let me guess, your come from a low to middle class family and had to take out loans for your entire education... with a grad degree, you would be looking between 150-300K in loans if you went to a decent school. More if it was a private school with a decent name.

4.0 GPA - obviously a business degree and not anything related to science... you also mentioned that you are employed, so you would never have time to study being a full-time student. To survive in this life, you'd have to live at home with Ma and Pa or you would only be able to afford Mac&Cheese for most dinners. Probably don't qualify to be under their healthcare, so you'd be on the Blue Cross-Your-Fingers And Try Not To Do Anything Stupid plan.

Once you graduate, you best find a job that pays quite well because those student loans are not going to wait very long to expect repayment... So now you are looking at a few hundred bucks a month for something close to eternity in repayment and interest.

If you don't have those loan payments each month, you were fortunate enough to have someone else pick up most of the tab for your education...unlike most. Ya know... this is taking up too much of my time for a response to a bunch of hooey... I don't believe a word of it.

[Ruby the Liberal]

91. Excellent points, given the cash corps are sitting on.

RW wants to give them "tax breaks" to sit on even more - but how much more effective would this be?

Someday, they will stop managing to the quarterlies and invest in their (all of our) future.

[Zalatix]

117. "Go fuck yourself"? I agree the OP is all sorts of bad, but that was over the line.

There are much better ways to totally destroy the fake points put up in the OP.

See: #115.

[Nikia]

94. I have a couple good friends here on work visas

They both graduated from American Universities and did well in their degree program. They are employed in my field and I am having trouble believing that there were no Americans qualified. I do believe that they are probably more qualified than other people who probably applied because the companies aren't exactly Fortune 500 and located in rural areas. Although I do not think they are badly underpaid, within a short period of time, their employers have become more demanding of them than of the American employees who have similiar positions at the company. I do sympathize with them because I know that they really do want to become permanent residents and possibly citizens. For now, though, they are basically indentured servants and their employers know that, for them, quitting would essentially end their American dreams.

[progressivebydesign]

96. And how may American workers who were fired had those same damn degrees????

All of them.

Sorry, I couldn't disagree with you more. Why are peddling this here? I know for a fact, living near a tech hub filled with corporations that import workers and outsource jobs... they ONLY bring them in because they will work 60 hours a week, and have zero home life.

The guys move here from other countries, and rent rooms from the locals. They only sleep there, but spend all waking hours at the corporation. The Corps love them, because American workers actually have a home life, and children, and cannot spend every waking moment working.

Bil Gates is one of those people that I despise over this practice. Even tho he's "retired" from Microsoft, he lobbies HARD to get more Visas for American companies, whining that American workers and students are trained or educated well enough. Bullshit. If the same corporations like MS didn't outsource even the most basic tech jobs to India and the Philippines, then their parents would actually be able to send their damn kids to college! They cut the jobs here, they fire tech workers here and say "oh, I can get someone over here to do the same job, cheaper, and they'll work like dogs."

If the spent that same money that they use to lobby Congress for more visas, and to bring these people over, they could absolutely open a tech university ON their biz campus, and retool any of the millions of laid off American tech workers.

Unreal. I'm so fucking sick of American companies doing everything for their stockholders.. not their employees, or customers. who do they think will buy their stuff if NONE of us have jobs???

[MrMickeysMom]

103. I wonder what the percentage is of Vo-Tech trained and degreed high school graduates...

One common trait within the ranks of your education statistic is - the entry level pay has spiraled down - lost, due to the ability of trade agreements to change people's lives.

[Ruby the Liberal]

105. Ah! But that isn't the topic.

OP doesn't wish to talk about those people. H1-B discussions need to focus on the need for US unqualified fields like Surgical Residency and specialized University Professors. We aren't to include the IT and Vo-Tech people for some reason.

[MrMickeysMom]

106. Oh! I see!

[JVS]

111. You should have put the penultimate paragraph first to save everyone time.

[Skittles]

113. OMG

[Zalatix]

115. Yes, American workers, YOU DO QUALIFY FOR THAT JOB.

See my heavily cited rebuttal here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021103361

[HiPointDem]

116. what a bunch of crap. In 2010 per BLS data there were 243,200 mechanical engineering jobs

in the US, and the growth in the number of those jobs 2010-2020 is projected to be 21,300. IOW, in 2020 there are expected to be 264,500, about 2100 new ME's a year.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mechanical-engineers.htm

Texas A&M alone graduates 200 BSME's and 125 graduate-level MEs every year, or 15% of the demand. *One* university.

http://www.google.com/#q=us+graduates+mechanical+engineers+a+year&hl=en&prmd=imvns&psj=1&ei=nMUkUICPFqSXiQKJk4GACQ&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=69e57d2f89da56b8&biw=1024&bih=580

The us population is over 300 million, which means that *all* mechanical engineering jobs -- BS, MS, PhD -- in the US could be filled by less than .1% of population.

And it's the same in every job category you list.

*No* reputable survey has found *any* shortage of candidates in any science or engineering field.

Your OP is a load of shit.

[part man all 86]

129. So basically this OP is saying Americans do not deserve American jobs unless they work for peanuts.

I been trying to comprehend why this is going on and reading your response and others tell a horrifying truth that employers are lying at every turn to erode the middle class to slave wages and no benefits. There are qualified candidates for every job plus several to back them up as you point out. I would think companies would want a well paid work force to ensure a stronger economy and thus a stronger nation. Unless they don't want it, that is warped thinking. One more pebble thrown against the glass, that is turning into a rock slide. The glass will break, with it the stability of us. Thank you for showing me stark facts that prove the opposite what is written in this OP and elsewhere, I am glad I found DU.

[HiPointDem]

122. In 2010 there were 25,100 biochemists & biophysicist jobs in the US. 25K.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/biochemists-and-biophysicists.htm

About 8000 such jobs are forecast to be added over the next 10 years, or 800 a year.

Yale graduates about 30 a year (3.75% of the demand), and apparently even Yale graduates are having trouble finding jobs in their field.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-happened-to-30-biochemistry.html

You are so full of shit.

[DainBramaged]

131. Bullshit

I graduated 36 years ago when a degree meant something.


Claiming those coming here on an H1B visa having advanced degrees is not only laughable, it shows complete ignorance of the industry.

[historylovr]

132. The only thing worse than propaganda

is propaganda layered with a thick load of condescension like this. And the only response is to quote Col. Potter, so therefore: Horse hockey.

[gkhouston]

133. Let me guess: the Romneys have a horse competing in that, too.

Hell, Romney must have an entire stable of entrants in the "horse hockey" competition.

[historylovr]

142. Good one! nt

[treestar]

134. Yes, the big loss is the outsourcing

That's where the manufacturing jobs are going. Professional workers don't even have a high rate of unemployment, even in this economy. People should claim to be victims of outsourcing. Claiming to be victims of H-1Bs is not every effective. That would be professional people and the actual H-1B laws protect American workers, the professionals, who would be competing with people who by law must be paid the prevailing wage. Whereas the manufacturing workers are competing with people IN CHINA, who can afford to work for much less.

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. Insert statement of utmost contempt for your logical and ethical framework here

H1B holders were predominately educated in US, generally public, universities.

In other words, your tax dollars educated a nonresident, non citizen to take the jobs that your kids could have been educated to do.

They didn't "happen to reach extraordinary educational levels" they were taught - by US taxpayers.

[Enrique]

138. nice to have the Chamber of Commerce point of view

now tell us how you feel about tort reform.

[twins.fan]

141. Mock, taunt and smear US STEM workers

This is of course a portion of the inaccurate talking points being perpetuated by the corporations and the foreign workers that benefit from that disinformation. The underlying theme is to mock, taunt, and smear US STEM workers with false information in order to justify the hiring of cheap, entry level workers from the third world to replace highly educated, well trained, and once well compensated US STEM workers who once had a job with a living wage.

Here I will only address two of BBGC's fables, the first being that H1B visas can only be issued to to employ foreign workers when a qualified US worker is not available. Not only is a US worker available, the US workers are often required to train their replacement so that the US worker can receive a severance package after being replaced. The H1B visa is an essential part of the "Knowledge Transfer" (KT) process that eventually results in the relocation of a corporation's US facilities into third world countries, primarily India.

KT progresses as follows.

1. An Indian H1B body shop, like Infosys, Tata, Satyam, etc) is hired by a US corporation to manage their IT function.
2. An Indian, with a glorified job title, is hired by a US corporation
3. A portion of the US work force is immediately fired or released, and the remaining workers are instructed to train the employees of the H1B body shop.
4. Once the employees of the Indian H1B body shop are trained, the remaining US STEM workers are released.
5. Then US operations for the corporation is then dismantled and reassembled in India.

This scenario has played out thousands of times, and sometimes plays out multiple times for one corporation. In fact the megabanks are employing that process to facilitate the relocation multiple operations to India.

The second point that I would like to address is the incorrect notion that H1B visas are granted to highly skilled workers, when in fact H1B visas are granted to replacement workers.

The GAO completed a report for Congress in 2011 demonstrating that H1B visas are not used to hire "highly skilled" workers The report can be reviewed at the following location: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d1126.pdf. On page 58, there appears a table listing the competencies of the various workers. That graph can be viewed at: http://techtalk.dice.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/918iBE2B98F5EE29FE1A/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

In ranking the core abilities of the recipients of the H1B visa, there is no category of "highly skilled." The highest category is a mere "Fully Competent" category, a lower standard than "highly skilled," The remaining categories are a lower standard than "Fully Competent." The portion of H1B visas judged to be "Fully Competent" was only 6.0%. The remaining 94% of the visa recipients were judged to be NOT "Fully Competent." Indeed 54% of the total population was judged to be "Entry Level" workers.

The point is very clear for the US STEM worker who had to live this scenarion. The H1B visa is being used to hire REPLACEMENT workers, not highly skilled workers.

[pa28]

145. Go get 'em tiger.

Whatever you do don't google H1B abuse.

[VincenzoCorleone]

146. Rebuttal

"H1B visa holders are highly skilled workers who are among the most talented and brightest."

This statement and the findings of the latest Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the H-1B don't jibe. According to the GAO report, the vast majority of H-1B workers are hired into entry-level positions. In fact, most are at "Level I", officially defined by the U.S. Dept. of Labor as those who have a “basic understanding of duties and perform routine tasks requiring limited judgment.” This belies the industry lobbyists’ claims that H-1Bs are hired because they are experts that can’t be found among the U.S. workforce.

"In order to qualify for an H1B visa, a company must have been unable to find a person with the required KSAs."

I don't know what you mean by "KSAs", but I'm assuming you basically mean "skills". Unfortunately, your statement is blatantly false. The vast majority of employers do not have to prove that they could not find domestic workers with the required skills. The only employers who DO need to do so are those called "H-1B dependent employers". To be an "H-1B dependent employer", a company must have 15% or more of their ENTIRE workforce comprised of H-1B workers. That is a tiny sliver of employers.

The U.S. Department of Labor had published their FY 2006–2011 Strategic Plan in which it stated "H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker". The publication has since been removed from the U.S. Dept. of Labor's website - I suspect because this passage caused an uproar.

"Once an H1B visa is issued, the prevailing wage must be paid."

The "prevailing wage" has been proven to be below market wages by the aforementioned GAO report and various Congressional testimony. Loopholes abound in the "prevailing wage" portion of the H-1B laws.

"According to the US Census bureau, in 2009, out of the entire population of the United States - the educational levels are as follows <remaining quoted statistics omitted for brevity>"

Consider this:

Below data is from the National Center for Education Statistics. It lists U.S. citizen and permanent resident STEM-related degrees conferred 2008 and 2009. Then, below that is another list from the 2010 Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report listing the occupations with more than 1,000 permanent (resident) labor certifications, with the Occupational Employment Statistics employment levels and gain/loss. Please read and understand what the data says – that there is NO shortage of skilled US STEM workers.

In summary, the U.S. has lost over 100,000 of these "shortage" jobs. Let's take the computer and information systems fields as an example (a field in which employers claim that jobs are going begging). The graduation levels for Computer and Information Sciences and Support Services 2008-2009 was 152,489 US citizen and permanent resident graduates. Unfortunately for them, there was an aggregate year-over-year net LOSS of 52,230 jobs in the computer and information sciences occupations 2009-2010. And yet these very same occupations had 23,016 foreign labor applicants in 2010.

Even in the specific occupations that showed a year-over-year increase in employment growth, foreign labor applicants exceeded employment growth. Take Computer Software Engineers, Applications, for example: if 9,854 immigrants were added to the employment roles and the employment levels only rose by 3,780 there are 6,074 Computer Software Engineers, Applications specialists who are now unemployed.

From the National Center for Education Statistics U.S. Citizen and Permanent Resident STEM Related Degrees Conferred 2008 and 2009:

Natural Resources and Conservation
Doctorate Degrees: 585
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 208
Master’s Degrees: 4,802
Bachelor’s Degrees: 19,033
Associate’s Degrees: 2,388
Total 2008 and 2009: 27,016

Architecture and Related Services
Doctorate Degrees: 143
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 88
Master’s Degrees: 10,795
Bachelor’s Degrees: 19,267
Associate’s Degrees: 1,125
Total 2008 and 2009: 31,418

Communications Technologies/Technicians and Support Services
Doctorate Degrees: 6
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 752
Master’s Degrees:
Bachelor’s Degrees: 9,760
Associate’s Degrees: 8,904
Total 2008 and 2009: 19,422

Computer and Information Sciences and Support Services
Doctorate Degrees: 974
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 423
Master’s Degrees: 19,387
Bachelor’s Degrees: 73,795
Associate’s Degrees: 57,910
Total 2008 and 2009: 152,489

Engineering
Doctorate Degrees: 4,136
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 2,410
Master’s Degrees: 38,459
Bachelor’s Degrees: 131,645
Associate’s Degrees: 4,373
Total 2008 and 2009: 181,023

Engineering Technologies/Technicians
Doctorate Degrees: 54
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 7
Master’s Degrees: 4,444
Bachelor’s Degrees: 29,557
Associate’s Degrees: 60,724
Total 2008 and 2009: 94,786

Biological and Biomedical Sciences
Doctorate Degrees: 6,979
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 2,800
Master’s Degrees: 16,305
Bachelor’s Degrees: 155,964
Associate’s Degrees: 4,482
Total 2008 and 2009: 186,530

Mathematics and Statistics
Doctorate Degrees: 1,001
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 456
Master’s Degrees: 6,349
Bachelor’s Degrees: 29,343
Associate’s Degrees: 1,698
Total 2008 and 2009: 38,847

Physical Sciences
Doctorate Degrees: 3,798
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 1,824
Master’s Degrees: 8,376
Bachelor’s Degrees: 42,710
Associate’s Degrees: 3,874
Total 2008 and 2009: 60,582

Science Technologies/Technicians
Doctorate Degrees: 5
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship:
Master’s Degrees: 45
Bachelor’s Degrees: 599
Associate’s Degrees: 2,817
Total 2008 and 2009: 3,466

Health Professions and Related Clinical Sciences
Doctorate Degrees: 12,245
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 2,263
Master’s Degrees: 116,062
Bachelor’s Degrees: 230,794
Associate’s Degrees: 323,051
Total 2008 and 2009: 684,415

Total Degrees Conferred to US Citizens/Green Card Holders in STEM fields, 2008 and 2009
Doctorate Degrees: 29,926
Doctorate Degree-Research Scholarship: 10,479
Master’s Degrees: 225,776
Bachelor’s Degrees: 742,467
Associate’s Degrees: 471,346
Total 2008 and 2009: 1,479,994


From the 2010 Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report, the occupations with more than 1000 Permanent (Residence) Labor Certifications, with the Occupational Employment Statistics employment levels and gain/loss:

Computer Software Engineers, Applications
OES Employment 2009: 495,500
OES Employment 2010: 499,280
Employment Gain/Loss: 3,780
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 9,854

Computer Systems Analysts
OES Employment 2009: 512,720
OES Employment 2010: 495,800
Employment Gain/Loss: (16,920)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 5,695

Computer Software Engineers,Systems Software
OES Employment 2009: 385,200
OES Employment 2010: 378,920
Employment Gain/Loss: (6,280)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 4,038

Computer and Information Systems Managers
OES Employment 2009: 287,210
OES Employment 2010: 288,660
Employment Gain/Loss: 1,450
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,893

Electronics Engineers,Except Computer
OES Employment 2009: 135,990
OES Employment 2010: 133,660
Employment Gain/Loss: (2,330)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,738

Accountants and Auditors
OES Employment 2009: 1,106,980
OES Employment 2010: 1,072,490
Employment Gain/Loss: (34,490)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,595

Computer Programmers
OES Employment 2009: 367,880
OES Employment 2010: 333,620
Employment Gain/Loss: (34,260)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,536

Operations Research Analysts
OES Employment 2009: 60,960
OES Employment 2010: 62,210
Employment Gain/Loss: 1,250
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,432

Market Research Analysts
OES Employment 2009: Non Equiv. SOC
OES Employment 2010: Non Equiv. SOC
Employment Gain/Loss: N/A
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,233

Cooks, Restaurant
OES Employment 2009: 898,820
OES Employment 2010: 901,310
Employment Gain/Loss: 2,490
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,115

Mechanical Engineers
OES Employment 2009: 232,660
OES Employment 2010: 234,400
Employment Gain/Loss: 1,740
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,074

Financial Analysts
OES Employment 2009: 235,240
OES Employment 2010: 220,810
Employment Gain/Loss: (14,430)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,042

Network and Computer Systems Administrators
OES Employment 2009: Non Equiv. SOC
OES Employment 2010: Non Equiv. SOC
Employment Gain/Loss: N/A
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,034

Electrical Engineers
OES Employment 2009: 151,660
OES Employment 2010: 148,770
Employment Gain/Loss: (2,890)
Number of Foreign Worker Applications: 1,003

Total – OCCUPATIONS WITH MORE THAN 1,000 PERMANENT LABOR CERTIFICATIONS EMPLOYMENT GAIN/LOSS: (100,890)

"Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with masters degrees for jobs that require masters degrees..."

Please see previous comment above regarding GAO report and entry-level positions.

"Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with professional degrees (attorneys, medical doctors, scientists)..."

The vast majority of H-1B workers are hired into the IT field as computer programmers or related positions - hardly rocket science.

"Pretending we don't need to import people from foreign nations with doctoral degrees for jobs that require doctoral degrees..."

Please cite a statistic regarding the number of doctoral degrees that are needed by industry.

"Not only do these people hold advanced degrees, they are at the top of their class. We are talking the top 5-10% of those who obtained those degrees. The vast majority of H1B holders fall in to the categories above."

Citation please. I don't believe you.

"I would suggest that instead of attacking people (who coincidentally happen to be brown)..."

OK, here we go. I am an advocate of American workers. I fight for the injustice brought upon them by the U.S. government and by Corporate America (in name only). Are you really so ignorant to think that all Americans are white??

"Furthermore, I am very grateful for H1B holders who are here working at our universities, hospitals, and technology firms who are working to solve some of the biggest problems facing humanity today."

Would be nice if you showed some appreciation for those U.S. citizens who would love to be able to do the same.

Source Data:

H-1B Visa Program - Reforms Are Needed to Minimize the Risks and Costs of Current Program
Government Accountability Office Report to Congressional Committees
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d1126.pdf

National Science Foundation WebCASPAR (Educational Statistics)
https://webcaspar.nsf.gov/index.jsp?subHeader=WebCASPARHome

U.S. Department of Labor - 2010 Foreign Labor Certification Annual Report
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/OFLC_2010_Annual_Report_Master.pdf

Bureau of Employment Statistic: Office of Employment Statistics
http://www.bls.gov/oes

[Ruby the Liberal]

147. Welcome to DU.

Thanks for the linkage.

[Kali]

148. welcome to DU

unfortunately, due to the way the site works the OP of this thread has been locked out becasue of a hidden post and will not be able to reply to you here.

They may be able to start a new thread so watch for that if you are interested.

Sorry.

[pnwmom]

151. Thanks for all the data. My family is heavy on engineers and scientists,

and many of our friends are, too -- so we know that unemployment is hitting in all fields, particularly among young people. Those entry level jobs do NOT need to be filled by HIB visa holders when there's an 8% unemployment rate among IT workers.

[grantcart]

156. My best friend works in a major hospital in a mid level IT position.

Under the Obama administration the stimulus bill is pouring money into hospitals and doctors network to unify software.

He has been waging a constant war with his supervisors who keep committing to operational deadlines that the sub contractors cannot meet.

The problem? Not wages. They cannot find the right people to get the job done.

He is also working in the pharmaceutical department of the hospital.

He gets calls every week from head hunters who are looking for people with his particular skill.

It seems as if there are some sectors where qualified supply seems to be a problem.

[VincenzoCorleone]

157. Simplistic

With respect, that's a very simplistic view of things.

How do you know the issue is not wages? How much are they offering? Are they competitive with overall market wages? Perhaps if they offered more money, workers with the required skills would apply. It's hard to say with the little information you provided.

Everyone in the IT field gets calls from head hunters. The strategy of staffing firms is to round up as many resumes as possible, regardless of whether they have jobs available or not - the objective being to attract new clients with their "inventory".

Cisco, in another example, was caught running a print ad for a job, and the address they provided applicants to send their resumes was to that of an immigration attorney. See http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/062807-youtube-video-puts-sharp-focus.html

The issues are very nuanced and you can't look at things as if they're black and white.

[Ruby the Liberal]

158. Ouch.

Another great link. Thanks.

[grantcart]

161. it's neither simplistic nor complicated, its a set of facts

If I had offered a working conclusion then you could come to an informed opinion of the conclusion, which I offered none.

The facts that are known was that under the stimulous there were large grants in the medical field to move to seamless paperless software.

Why the shortage, no idea.

He was out for a while trying to start his own business and when he went back into the field he sent out resumes for months. Then he got three offers the same week.

He makes over 100k now. For the last two years he has faced the same problem stated above. According to him about 30% of the people involved, esp the managers are not technically qualified to oversee the contracts in their area. The sub contractors are constantly falling short of meeting deadlines.

It may be that in San Diego competition from other sectors (telecommunication, defense, FBI Forensic lab, medical research) has spread the pool thin.

I have shared his experience with about a half dozen other hospital employees in San Diego and they all echoed the same problem. I assume that the grant money required completion by a fixed date and it is becoming increasingly difficult to meet those dates.

[NNN0LHI]

159. You are not telling the entire story

Job where I retired from gave an aptitude test to see if we were qualified to be trained for a certain skilled job classification.

Those of us who passed the test then went through an 8000 hour training program which consisted of about 3700 hours of college courses. The other 4300 hours consisted of on the job training. And my company not only paid for all our training and books, It also paid us our standard hourly rate for every one of those 8000 hours.

I bet if more companies were doing this we would soon discover there were a lot of Americans who were qualified to do these jobs that need to be filled.

What do you think about that idea?

Don

[NNN0LHI]

162. Insert the sound of crickets chirping here

[NNN0LHI]

163. Anyone notice that BBGC was very responsive to his/her OP until I asked my question?

BBGC answered all the easy questions but then disappeared when I asked mine.

Something is funny here.

Not the kind of funny that makes me laugh either.

Don

[Ash_F]

166. If only this were commonplace today.

Americans need to demand it.

[bhikkhu]

160. Good job on the grades and degree!

I a BA just about finished a BA myself, working toward a Master's in education, but its on hold as the jobs there evaporated well before I maxed out my debt-tolerance. I'm still technically enrolled (with a 3.8), and 8 credits from graduation, so I'm being patient, paying loans down and weighing future options still.

I absolutely value college not just as a career path but as an invaluable tool for building one's thinking skills - the sort of thing which transforms lives in the long term. I'm not going back to read all the flack you've likely gotten; but I don't mind what country people come from myself.

[agent zero]

167. BULLSHIT !! They took our jobs and you know it.