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Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:17 AM Aug 2012

I Worked in Bangalore (India) -- The Heart of IT Outsourcing

The people of India are industrious, hard working people, but the idea that they have superior IT skills is highly doubtful. The people are predominantly working class and poor. The majority of them do not even have personal computers in their homes.

I went to India to assist a friend with his start up business. I was there to interview and recruit talent to the new venture. We placed ads on India's Monster.com, and we used local recruiters. We got very few responses to our ads. We were told that most Indian IT workers did not have computers in their own homes, so the only way that they could respond to emails was on their jobs during their breaks. Ultimately, the venture failed due to the inability to recruit talent.

Additionally, I rarely saw anyone with a laptop or any other personal computer. If you work in software development, then you know that you have to constantly update your development skills even when you're not working. I would go to various cafes where there would be groups of young people, and none of them had computers. Walk into any cafe in America, and everyone has a laptop in front of them. So, how is it even possible for these people to have these "better-than-Americans" development skills when they don't even have personal computers.

Currently, I am updating my ASP.net MVC and Sharepoint development skills. After I get home from work, I sit in front of my computer and work through tutorials in order to develop these skills. You need a computer in your home in order to keep your skills up to date. It's simply not possible any other way, even if your job trains you.

Finally, if importing H1Bs is truly about American IT skill deficiency not pay, then the vast majority of imported IT workers would be coming from Northern Europe, not India.

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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
1. i've never understood the whole not recruiting from northern europe thing.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:21 AM
Aug 2012

i mean if we are talking about 'skills' and 'shortages'.

something i found hard to believe all along.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
6. A month paid vacation vs maybe a week unpaid if you're lucky..
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 11:55 AM
Aug 2012

Other posters have pointed out some drawbacks to moving from N Europe to the USA as well..

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
7. Importing H1B workers is NOT about a "skill deficiency".
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 02:06 PM
Aug 2012

It IS about driving down wages and benefits across the board for the American Working Class to increase the Corporate Bottom Line.

WORD!

It is clear in the OP that IT workers in India don't even make enough to buy their own used Lap Tops.
THAT is the bi-partisan plan for IT workers and ALL the Working Class in the USA.

It is "The Uniquely American Solution".

[font size=4]Cherish your memories, SUCKERS!
because we're TAKING everything else!
Hahahahahahaha!
[/font]


[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity99![/font]


 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
9. When Fiorina wiped out our entire division, my Indian counter-part was paid 6 % of my salary
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 04:20 PM
Aug 2012

with no benefits. I understand that the rate has dropped even further since then.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
10. Not sure
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 08:39 PM
Aug 2012

I'm sure there might be some who do not have computers at home, bt from my experience most of the IT workers in India do have a personal computer at home....often at lest a Desktop. Yes some might even share it with their family members, but in today's day and age its hard to find IT workers in India without computers of their own.

However, I do agree that not everyone is economically well off to have computers of their own, but at least amongst my generation (the ones who graduated from high school in mid 2000s) the amount of people who own a computer(and even personal laptops) are pretty high.Hell....more than half of my classmates seem to be on FB 24/7 .

I got my first computer when I was in 10th grade,however I was programming for at least an year then. Often this was the same for those of my generation...it was the era of the Pentium PC's and they were slowly making inroads into the subcontinental homes...nowadays kids get computers when they are in grade 1.lol.

You might wonder about the ability of a person who does not own a computer of his own to learn programming, and it is a valid concern. However, most of the developing world does not have as much disposable income as the US, and students have to make do with what they have. Often the ones who have a computer, and the ones who do not, both go to computer training centers to learn programming/computing skills. After their classes, they have "lab hours" where they get to use the computers in those training centers if they so wish. With good time management skills it's not impossible to get about 10-20 hours of computer time each week(often more). From my own experience based on the observation of my friends who did not own a computer, about 20 hours or so a week, of dedicated programming practice is more than enough to enable a person to become a good programmer. Also i have to stress that this is "on machine time", these students spend hours and hours more each week studying the textbooks and theory behind their subjects.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and the lack of computers have forced a lot of students to improvise new ways to brush up their skills. One of the most popular method during my school days was to write the code by hand, on a notebook/sheet of paper. This code is then given to a friend who would go over it, and try to spot any bugs, and vice versa. Its amazing how many bugs we can find just by going over code.When sch a written code is deemed "buggless" by peer review(lol often it still has a bunch of bugs which show up only when its compiled on a computer) and set aside to be compiled and run when the student gets his "computer time/access to a computer". Thus, in the day/days he/she has no access to a computer, the student will still be writing code, literally. He would then run all these accumulated programs the next time he has access to a computer. Due to limited computer time, a lot of students develop good coding habits...it also ingrains good software engineering principals. Instead of "just coding" without thinking much about the problem at hand, the lack of computer time forces students to put a lot of effort into the initial design and methodology of the program, as they often will not have time for multiple attempts in one day.

While I do agree that having access to a personal computer/laptop will definitely be a boon for students/programmers, it is not necessarily a deal breaker to have only limited access. Ive seen students here in the US college classes I attended fall asleep/play world of Warcraft/post on FB while the professor is lecturing on compiler design. Often these students also change their major and do something totally unrelated like psychology.As the old saying goes, if there is a will, there is a way.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
11. You Cannot Develop High Level Database Development / .Net Development / Java etc. without a
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 09:30 PM
Aug 2012

computer. Sorry, but handwritten code simply will not cut it. You can barely simulate scale even when you program on your home computer, let alone hand writing code. For example, it's impossible to become a top flight Sharepoint developer with handwritten code.

Like I said, I sat in a cafe almost every day, and I never saw anyone with a personal computer. Never saw it.

ChromeFoundry

(3,270 posts)
12. And I doubt an Internet Cafe
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:04 PM
Aug 2012

would have Visual Studio installed or SQL Server Management Studio for that matter for people to learn on their down time.
If they are on FB 24x7.. it's probably via a cell phone.

I could not imagine trying to debug a C# delegate to an anonymous function, with multiple parameters, in Lambda format from someone else on a piece of paper.
How about a multi-threaded application?
God forbid if someone aliases a System namespace...talk about confusion.
SharePoint 2013 will require a minimum of 3 servers for a basic configuration with workflows... and it will not run on Win7/8 - has to be on Win 2008 servers.

No. There is no way.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
13. Also, We're Not Talking About Basic Developer Competency
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:29 PM
Aug 2012

We're talking Indian developers being so vastly superior to American developers that they have to be imported.

ChromeFoundry

(3,270 posts)
14. Agreed.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:39 PM
Aug 2012

It like me becoming a kick ass fighter pilot by having my buddy push me around in a wagon, as I point my water pistol at the trees I am passing. No need to have access to a plane of any type...just imagination and desire.

This whole sub-thread is just, well, laughable.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
16. nvm
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 11:16 PM
Aug 2012
We're talking Indian developers being so vastly superior to American developers that they have to be imported.


Nvm, didn't realize that this was the point you wanted to make. I might have saved myself some time
Cheers.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
15. I never said one could be one without a computer, I did point out the reality though.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 11:13 PM
Aug 2012

A lot of the IT folks who came from India to work in the US during the 90s and 80s most definitely did not have a computer from the time they were kids. It's a fact. I was merely explaining what I have seen with my own eyes. it was not my intention to cast aspersions on your statements. But even as one from a developing nation, I find it rather shocking that they who applied for your companies job openings didn't have their own computers.

furthermore, I'm not aware of the locale you were in, but I do know that a lot of young people of my generation do have their own computers...at least the ones who are from middle class families. Being a developer without access to a personal computer makes no sense to me. I do not know what job openings you were recruiting people for...nor do I know about the competitive market in that region/area which might/might not explain the lack of interest from potential recruits. Thus you might notice I did not hazard a guess about those particulars.


Like I said, I sat in a cafe almost every day, and I never saw anyone with a personal computer. Never saw it.


Am I correct in assuming that "cafe" means a coffee shop? If that is the case, I will be surprised if you found anyone with a laptop there...(unless in some very very rare occasions). Unlike the cafes here in the US, almost no one uses Cafes to do their work/work on projects in India. Cafes tend to be what they used to be in ages past...places where people usually go for a cup of coffee/snacks and to hang out with their friends.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
17. What sort of positions were these?
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 11:52 PM
Aug 2012

I haven't dealt with Indian outsourcers - but I have done a lot of business in India and would report differently.

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