Can we try to avoid strawmanning?

[fainaent]

I've seen a lot recently, in just about every forum I participate in, about Romney's and Ryan's plans to 'privatize' Social Security, but it always upsets me when somebody, regardless of political ideology, misrepresents the position of someone else.

Romney's official stance on SS is to gradually increase the retirement age, and to gradually decrease the benefits for the wealthy(make SS more progressive). He also holds the opinion that an option for a personal account, on top of regular SS contributions, would be beneficial.

Ryan's plan for SS allows the option to continue with the status quo. Nobody would be forced to participate in personal accounts. The personal accounts would have the same options as the Thrift Savings Plan, and funds would be managed by the SSA, and guaranteed to match the traditional gains.

We don't have to agree with them, but we shouldn't pretend that they are advocating something that they aren't actually advocating.

Edit: I didn't include sources, I apologize.

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/social-security
http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/social-security-silliness/
http://roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/plan/#retirementsecurity

[Tom Ripley]

1. Your concern is noted

[Horse with no Name]

8. Duly noted.

On another tangent though...the paid internet trolls have been out en masse trying to put lipstick on this pick.

It is generally through disinformation...ie, don't believe your lying ears, BELIEVE me!

[fainaent]

12. That's the bad thing about the internet.

I'm about the biggest advocate in the world of primary sources. I don't believe anything unless I can find the original data to back it up, and look at it myself.

I've seen way too many stories, polls, and studies that botched the underlying data.

[russspeakeasy]

21. Whatever you are smoking is probably illegal.

[cali]

25. The internet is chock-a-block full of primary sources

and articles with long passages from primary sources.

YOU are not providing any such thing.

[NoPasaran]

27. So

Given your own failure to provide original sources, do you believe your own original post?

[fainaent]

32. I apologize for not including the links.

I look at primary sources, I have a bad habit of not including them in posts

I've added the sources further down, I'll edit the OP if I can.

[NoPasaran]

39. Thanks for all the GOP links

[nc4bo]

49. No kidding. nt

[cali]

50. you're kidding about your links, right?

using the romney site to back up your argument is fucking beyond pathetic. go away. you're not even facile at making your poor argument.

[fainaent]

64. What would you propose

that we use for a source of what someone is advocating, other than the things they are actually saying?

If you want to know what Ryan's plan entails, the proper place to look is at his plan.

[cali]

84. first of all, I would expect some analysis

from both sides. Look, there is no doubt that if you siphon funds off from social security, you will whittle away at the very foundation of the program.

Secondly, Ryan's antipathy toward the social safety net is documented in his own words. He wants to destroy Medicare and slash food stamps and cut Medicaid to the bone. There is no argument about that. He's put it in black and white. That gives you a big honking clue, dearie, that he also wants to undermine social security. He wants to privatize it, hand over funds to the banksters and Wall Street. Given the events of recent years, who with two or more functioning brain cells would endorse such as harebrained idea?

[oldhippie]

169. You're right, it doesn't matter what he says ....

.... we all know what he really means. No sense looking at his words.

[Quantess]

178. Romney is a documented prevaricator.

Last edited Sun Aug 12, 2012, 05:34 PM - Edit history (1)

There IS no sense in looking at his words, except for more ammunition to document flip-flops and various gradations of lies.

Edit to add: Hey, Oldhippy: Whaddya say we go cash our welfare checks, go buy cheetos with our food stamps, take some bong rips, then go get our nails done all ghetto?

[oldhippie]

198. Am I missing something?

WTF are you talking about in your edit? makes no sense.

[maddezmom]

34. here read this

Paul Ryan’s Original Medicare Plan Ends Medicare, Period
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/08/11/677751/paul-ryans-original-medicare-plan-ends-medicare-period/
and this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-pelosi/ryan-roadmap-still-a-road_b_1766799.html

[fainaent]

38. Right, I am specifically

talking about Social Security. I am aware that Ryan's plan for Medicare is different than his plan for SS.

[cali]

55. His plan to destroy Medicare, drastically reduce Medicaid and slash the hell out of food stamps

should give you a clue about his intent for Social Security. And btw, you can't possibly divert funds from Social Security and expect it to survive in any functional manner.

[Ruby the Liberal]

81. Rather than relying on the Republican House and mittromney.com sites

Try Google. Its easy. You type something like "Paul Ryan 2005 Social Security Plan" into the little box and it does all the work for you.

Don't miss the WSJ article talking about how the Bush administration ran from that plan like it was kryptonite because of how draconian it was...

[Warren Stupidity]

75. and you are clueless on how 'private accounts' defund and destroy social security.

Thanks for spraying du with gop talking points though.

[obxhead]

86. Yet, 2 of the sources you provided above would be primary sources

that would make shit up.

Welcome to DU. I hope it's educational.

[cali]

109. I'm not sure those count as primary sources. The Ryan budget legislation

actual written proposals, etc. are far better primary sources.

[obxhead]

113. I agree.

I was letting out a little rope to assist in the hanging.

He/she had me at Romney's official stance

[Quantess]

172. "lipstick on this PICK?"

Did you mean to type pig, or prick?
Anyway, the OP apparently enjoys leaving sloppy lipstick marks all over Romney's ass.

[backscatter712]

76. I know, he's so very concerned! n/t

[Zorra]

125. Yes. One should never get their information from suspect sources.

This can result in unreasonable concerns.

Some sources for concern originate in places like the American Enterprise Institute, and the Heritage Foundation.

And also, of course...

The American Legislative Exchange Council

[Kablooie]

168. And DU can be a suspect source if claims are not linked to reliable sites.

[nc4bo]

2. They are going to destroy it same as they are destroying the USPS. I have NO doubt and

neither should you.

The destruction may not be a tidal wave but it won't take a tidal wave to destroy the foundation.

Fuck the GOP and it's asshat candidates.

[Frustratedlady]

123. Don't forget public education and state-operated prisons. eom

[livetohike]

3. Links to these supposed "facts"? n/t

[Horse with no Name]

42. So...THOSE are the sources you trust?

Oh.My.Gawd

[fainaent]

68. Where should we go?

To get someone's stances on the issues?

If I want to know what's in Ryan's plan, I'll read the plan. There is no other primary source.

[JohnnyRingo]

135. Maybe your next post can consider the merits of the birthers.

They have dozens of websites devoted to the "proof" that Obama is a Kenyan born socialist who attended Muslim schools and goes around apologizing for America.

Welcome to DU, but did you know we support Democrats here? Presenting Republican talking points as facts isn't debate, it's trolling for a volatile reaction.

[maddezmom]

51. another analysis:

The Roadmap for Republicans allows Wall Street speculators to use benefits as poker chips with taxpayers of all ages forced to cover the losses. If you hated TARP for the banks, you'll reject TARPing Social Security.
The Roadmap for Republicans begins with the same privatization path proposed by President Bush and soundly rejected by the American people in 2005. According to its architect, prospective Republican Presidential candidate Rep. Paul Ryan, It "offers workers under 55 the option of investing over one third of their current Social Security taxes into personal retirement accounts. Includes a property right so they can pass on these assets to their heirs, and a guarantee that individuals will not lose a dollar they contribute to their accounts, even after inflation."

Translation: TARP on steroids. Personal retirement accounts are welcomed -- but not from the trust fund. And guaranteeing them allows Wall Street to gamble those Social Security trust fund assets and forces taxpayers to pay back any losses. We'll treat Social Security like poker chips -- but if you mess up, we'll cover your losses. Didn't we just do this with TARP for the banks and investment houses? Imagine if this TARPing of Social Security trust fund assets had happened when the market plummeted in 2008. In addition to those shrinking 401ks and pensions, we'd all be on the hook for lost Social Security trust fund assets invested in the market.

From there, the Roadmap for Republicans says it "makes the program permanently solvent -- according to the Congressional Budget Office [CBO] -- by combining a more realistic measure of growth in Social Security's initial benefits, with an eventual modernization of the retirement age."

Translation: lowers benefits and raises retirement age. Modernization means you'll be working longer, earning less, and covering the losses of everyone who blew their shares of the Social Security trust fund on a Wall Street gamble.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-pelosi/ryan-roadmap-still-a-road_b_1766799.html

[catbyte]

103. Why don't they just raise the fucking age to 90 and quit pretending?

Why are you even here attempting to defend these despicable attacks on the poor and elderly? Is "Mitt" paying you $.01 per post or $.02, fainaent?

Please take your cockamamie rationalizations elsewhere.

(Insert disgusted eye roll here)

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI and mom to Taz, Nigel, and baby Sammy, members of
Dogs Against Romney, Cat Division
"We Ride Inside--Hiss!"

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. Ryan's 2005 SS Privatization act was so odious that even the Bush Admin

turned it down for being too radical.

But thanks for your concern.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

95. Are you toying with this poster like a cat plays with a mouse?

Or is most of MIRT out for brunch?

[Ruby the Liberal]

107. Just trying to add some facts, sir.

Given that the Republican House site and mittromney.com are the only "facts" being offered at this point.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

146. Well we wouldn't want to run around willy-nilly without the facts.

[cali]

5. Sorry, but that's pulling the rug out from under the program

and what you're spewing is bullshit. You're soft peddling it. You're whitening the sepulcher and it still stinks.

Both Romney and Ryan want to divert and reduce Social Security contributions. That would inevitably weaken and kill Social Security.

Don't fucking spew this shit here.

[fainaent]

40. What is so wrong

with talking about the actual plans that people have proposed?

[cali]

143. nothing wrong with discussing them. A lot wrong with what you're doing

which is misrepresenting them and pushing right wing talking points.

This is democratic underground, not haterville overseen by bigot-in-chief Jim Robinson.

[oldhippie]

175. They are Repub plans and thus all lies ....

.. that's why. What do you think you are trying to accomplish? Reason with us?

[Quantess]

194. Who cares.

I know someone who can liquidate our food stamps for cash, so we don't have to work. Let's go! You will like him for sure, cuz he is an islamic commie. Then we can go smoke rocks at the transsexual abortion clinic.

[oldhippie]

199. I would suggest checking your meds. nt

nt

[catnhatnh]

6. Live long and Prosper....

Though I doubt it.

[sharp_stick]

7. You don't need strawman arguments

to pillory Ryan and his disastrous economic policies. If that fuckwit is for it you know it's going to be bad for everyone.

His SS position is completely untenable and even the most basic look at the actual documents he's produced shows that it can not be sustained.

[greatauntoftriplets]

9. Care to back that up with some reality-based facts?

I'll wait.

[fainaent]

46. I updated the OP

to contain the links.

Nothing in either person's plans advocates for forced participation in personal accounts.

[ProSense]

52. Do you have a link

to Mitt's tax returns?

[malaise]

65. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaah hahahahaha

[fainaent]

72. Lol, no.

I don't think we'll ever have a link for those, unless McCain leaks them.

[pinboy3niner]

73. ROFL!

[Ruby the Liberal]

89. !!

Are they on Mitt's site with the rest of this "proof"?

[greatauntoftriplets]

145. mittromney.com?

Do you really believe anything that fool has to say?

[Mz Pip]

10. "WE?"

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

[fainaent]

47. My hope would be

everybody, no matter what party or belief. Strawmanning doesn't help discussion at all.

[Horse with no Name]

70. Neither does downright lying and obsfucating

yet....

[Scuba]

11. Rmoney and Ryan can certainly be trusted to protect these critical programs. Yeah, that's it.

Well, except for the part where they plan to steal every dollar.

[nc4bo]

14. "Liquidate" or even "Liquify".

[Scuba]

17. VULTURE / VOUCHER - 2012

[nc4bo]

23. Excellente! nt

[Strega Ribiera]

93. Good one!

Can I use that?

[Scuba]

101. Help yourself, and welcome to DU.

[Strega Ribiera]

195. Thanks!

[Bluerthanblue]

13. you need to look again at the Ryan plan, and what it will mean to the future of SSA and Medicare-

Look closely and thoroughly.

You also need to address the fact that Ryan would increase tax-breaks for the wealthiest. Who will make up the slack there?

The only straw-men here are Romney-Ryan.

[ananda]

22. Scarecrows without a brain.

Full of straw and shit.

[Bluerthanblue]

41. they have a brain

but they sure don't have much of a heart. Selfishness personified.

Entitled and arrogant as well.

[Deep13]

15. Ryan wants to privatize Medicare,...

...changing it from a service to a buffet for rich speculators. And I am not going to assume his carefully crafted official positions reflect his actual intentions. Neither Romney nor Ryan have any regard for the non-ruling class.

[cali]

16. So what do you think of his plan to drastically cut the food stamp program

to turn Medicare into a voucher program? How about his lovely plan to reduce taxes on the wealthy and raise them on the middle class and the poor?

[fainaent]

54. I don't like cuts

to social programs. I didn't mean for the OP to represent my position on anything other than integrity in discussion.

[cali]

106. But your op lacks the very thing you claim to want.

Ryan's plan would destroy the foundation of Social Security by diverting funds from it. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work that out.

[maddezmom]

18. sounds like you are an advocate for their plans

more than you're worried about them being misrepresented.

[malaise]

26. LOL

[fainaent]

56. No, I just have this weird thing

where I don't like peoples' positions to be misrepresented, even if I don't agree with them. I feel it's dishonest and doesn't do any good.

[Ruby the Liberal]

92. So you are linking to mittromney.com?

Priceless. Fair and Balanced, also too.

[fainaent]

99. Yeah, if I want to know

what Mitt's stance is on an issue, the first place I start is with the primary source. I.E. what he is saying about it.

[cali]

131. wrong. one doesn't go to a campaign site. One looks at the legislation

and policy proposals. And in any case, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, diverting funds from Social Security would destory its foundation

[TheKentuckian]

179. Robme is not an effective "primary source", his position may flip back and forth during a statement

and certainly over the course of days, weeks, months, and years.

Maybe you can take Weird Willard to task for misrepresenting his positions and at times refusing to present them?

The man is a proven and habitual liar and an etch a sketch. His positions are whatever he thinks an audience wants to hear or what he thinks will sell at a given moment. This is an extremely silly thing to push.

[Democat]

149. A lot of new DUers supporting the Ryan/Romney ticket today!

Strange, isn't it?

[FSogol]

19. You must be really upset with Romney's dishonest political ads.

You're been here 4 days and are encouraging us to be fair to Romney?

Whatever.

[fainaent]

57. I try to encourage

everybody to be fair to everybody. I've never been a proponent of the idea that it's ok to play dirty because someone on the other side did it too.

[grantcart]

115. lol you have links to show how you have shared your concern elesewhere?

Lets see some facts to back that up

[Avalux]

20. Whew! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Now that you've told me there's nothing to worry about from the Plutocrat Twins, I may consider voting for them!

[malaise]

24. Whatever

Enjoy your stay and don't forget to let me know your favorite flowers

Fuck the Ryan plan - fuck Rmoney and fuck Ryan.

[cali]

28. where's unrec when you really need it?

[NoPasaran]

44. Amen to that!

[hedgehog]

29. My husband and I attended University at Buffalo. Between the old-style Regent's Scholarship,

low tuition and commuting from home, we both graduated with no debt whatsoever.

Then some genius decided that education benefits should be means tested.

My kids all went to SUNY Buffalo, Suny Albany or Suny ESF. Right now I owe $60,000 in student loans.

[maddezmom]

31. just for the record: Paul Ryan’s Original Medicare Plan Ends Medicare, Period

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/08/11/677751/paul-ryans-original-medicare-plan-ends-medicare-period/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-pelosi/ryan-roadmap-still-a-road_b_1766799.html

[malaise]

35. That simple

[ProSense]

33. Isn't

"We don't have to agree with them, but we shouldn't pretend that they are advocating something that they aren't actually advocating."

...it a bit late to be carrying water for Republicans?

Priebus: Obama Is ‘Stealing’ From Seniors And Has ‘Blood On His Hands’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021116751


Romney and Ryan want to starve people, from kids to seniors.

NYT editorial slams Romney and his embrace of Ryan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021112382

[Gidney N Cloyd]

36. Can we also avoid verbing?

[coalition_unwilling]

53. LOL - Don't you mean 'verb-izing'? The one that I always get a hoot out of

is 'monetize,' as in, "We need to find a way to 'monetize' our ideas."

[NoPasaran]

62. Peyton Manning has a half-brother named Straw Manning

You read that on the Internet so it must be true.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

71. I suppose that joke was unavoidable.

[patrice]

138. Wait, . . . wutt?? Verb -ing??? uh, okay . . . he, he.

[greatauntoftriplets]

155. At work, some of the bigwigs use "office" as a verb...as in "he offices at...."

It's so damned stupid sounding. I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion on the practice.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

163. Then there's "hotel-ing," for roatating workers who temporarily occupy office space.

And I'm not so much against the practice as amused by it. Some instances are funnier than others.

[greatauntoftriplets]

164. There's that, too.

I hear so many idiotic buzzwords at work that I am at the point of wanting to make noises whenever someone uses one.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

159. Is that like voguing?

[2pooped2pop]

37. oops n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

43. You are the one creating the straw man by mischaracterizing our opposition to

Romney's and Ryan's plans so as to knock it over.

First of all, can you provide any links on DU to any supposed discussion of Romney's and Ryan's "plans to 'privatize' Social Security"???? I'm from Missouri and you have to 'show me.'

Second, if Romney wants to make SS more "progressive" (your words), that does have the effect of undermining the broad popular support for it by making it start seeming more like welfare and less like insurance. That is not the same thing as 'privatizing' it and you know it, but it is a legitimate reason to dispute the RR plans.

So why don't you stop your straw-manning of opponents to Romney and Ryan or provide some proof to back up your assertions?

WTF??

[fainaent]

78. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody.

I think I've seen these arguments about SS here, but I know I've seen them elsewhere. I'm more curious as to whether or not people agree with me, that we should all try to have, and encourage, integrity in the discussion by everybody involved.

I could go looking for links on DU, but that's not really my point or what I want to do. I'm more frustrated with other forums where the strawman arguments have been constant.

I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone.

[Frustratedlady]

151. I understand what you are saying to a point, but I have to defend DU...

I joined several years ago because I found that they were so good at documenting their sources to back up their claims. The knowledge on this group is incredible.

Granted, we all speculate what politicians are REALLY up to, because it has reached the point where we can no longer believe most of what they say. But, since the Bush years, as well as the entry of the Tea Party, there isn't a whole lot of anything we can believe from the Republicans (and I include the TP's, since there isn't a whole lot of space between them). They have shown where their interests lie and it isn't with the 99%.

If you hang around, you will see evidence of what this group can uncover, of the vast cache they have of speeches, writings, videos, on and on. You ask a question and someone will have a link to an answer that makes sense. These people are for real.

[coalition_unwilling]

190. Fair enough, except your OP insinuated that there was strawmanning going on here but you

failed to provide any evidence of it.

In the 10 years I have participated here, I have seen very little straw-man argumentation here. Sure, every once in awhile, someone erects a straw man but it is quickly called out by the eagle-eyed and high intelligence DU community, often within minutes of the straw man being posted.

Your real beef with straw man argumentation is with places like Yahoo and Facebook where Democrats and Liberals are routinely red-baited and their characters impugned by folks who are only a step or two above Neanderthal. The truth is that Ryan in the past has called for the privatization of Social Security but his plan was so odious that even the Bush Junta ran from it in horror. I honestly don't know (and care even less) what that brown-nosing little fascist is proposing these days.

[Enrique]

45. yes, we should definitely believe all their lies

[99Forever]

48. Question: Why the fuck are you here schilling for the Teapublicans?

Hmmmm?

[fainaent]

82. I'm not.

Does the fact that you don't agree with someone mean you have to misrepresent their positions?

[kurtzapril4]

157. Give up, fainaent.

I understand what you're trying to do, though. Of course, Romney isn't going to put on his website that he wants to gut SS and Medicare, it would make him very unpopular. The problem with the sources you list is that they're very probably not telling the whole truth.

I don't know you, or if you're a shill, or what, and I don't care. I don't agree with your reading of the facts, but I do commend you for trying to have a rational conversation about it, anyway. As you can see....you're basically pissing in the wind here.

[99Forever]

181. Sure you aren't.

I'm not "misrepresenting" jack shit, pal. You're the one here, on a DEMOCRATIC site, painting lipstick on Rmoney's pig.

Enjoy your stay.

[Ruby the Liberal]

98. Hey now!

Don't diss the teabaggers

Thats just mean.

[2pooped2pop]

58. Is your name suppose to imply that the dems

are lazy and do nothing, or just you? Or just the people here? Or does it not mean that at all? Did u look it up or did Rimjob look it up for you? Sorry for all the questions. I thought u guys had better cover than this though.
Just curious.
Hello/Goodbye

[fainaent]

87. No, it's just a name

that I've used as an alias for many, many years.

You could say it applies to me, I just thought it sounded cool when I was younger, before I knew what it meant or whether or not I was spelling it correctly

[RedStateLiberal]

128. You chose a username without knowing what it meant?

That's some desperate spin...

[Quantess]

192. Oh right, just like you imagine your alternate liberal self would be...

...like, after several bong rips, and after guzzling the jug of wine you could only afford because you had food stamps, you heard a Serge Gainsbourg song and thought it sounded cool, even though you didn't know what all the words meant. ALL LIBERALS do this, don't worry. I had the same experience while I was smoking crack and trying to decide whether to have a late term abortion, or whether to sell my baby to a newlywed gay couple.

[lpbk2713]

59. Thanks for sharing your perceptive insight.

... just who is "we' anyhow?

[Warren Stupidity]

60. Did anyone alert on this yet and did some jury let this actually stand?

[cali]

66. I just did that. don't know the results yet.

[nc4bo]

85. I did too. Wouldn't mind if the entire thread were removed permanently.

This thread, the candidates it supports and its physical presence on DU can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

[GObamaGO]

94. I smell something

Eau du Under the Bridge or something.

[Peregrine Took]

144. This OP smelled from the get go. I'm surprised some folks fell for it. n/t

[GObamaGO]

197. Yep

I am surprised as well.

[nc4bo]

100. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGOUND. Check your map, wrong place. nt

[fainaent]

105. What is undemocratic

about my opinion that we should have integrity in political discussion?

[nc4bo]

118. Your links for one. Have you actually read the rules here? We actually have those you know.

You choose to post GOP piggy crap.

I also feel if you continue, you will not find your visits pleasant nor long lasting - much like the candidates you so obviously support.

Watch your step and Welcome to Democratic Underground

[sendero]

174. Hey Pal..

... after years of "birthers" and people calling the president a "socialist" (he isn't even really a progressive , much less a socialist) and lying candidate Romney lying his ass off day after day, we're tired of coming to a gunfight with a knife and I'm pretty sure Obama is too.

We're tired of being told that tax cuts for the rich create jobs (taxes are lowest in decades, where are the jobs?) tired of being told that globalization and free trade and deregulation will make everything better for everybody (look around you, the Libertarians got what they asked for and look at the result) so trying to sell Ryan or anyone like him is only going to work on the stupid, and there is less stupid here than on most of the internet.

So peddle your "integrity" somewhere else, we've seen what passes for integrity from the Republican party and we're not buying ANY of it.

[Quantess]

187. +1

[datasuspect]

185. the people you support (romney and fuck) have no integrity

repubs and most right wing extremists have no integrity. there is no discussion to be had.

next.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

110. .

At least I hope they pay you overtime on Sunday. What am I saying? That would be communism.

[cali]

137. The problem is you're spreading republican lies and

ignoring any questions you don't like. Is that clear enough for you?

[Warren Stupidity]

139. basically we think you are a troll here to push republican bullshit

and so far you have done nothing other than confirm our opinion of you.

Welcome to DU.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. A jury of morons voted 4-2 to keep. nt

[cali]

148. unfuckingbelivably stupid.

how fucking dumb do you have to be to let this drivel stand?

[Warren Stupidity]

150. we have a lot of people here who will hide naughty-bits words but not gop bullshit.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

166. One thing I've noticed with the new system. I've been here since 2001 and have had what could be

considered a good record busting trolls. Since the jury system I've seen a bunch of dumb shit stand. The usual comment is "poster is just expressing an opinion". Sure geniuses, a right wing opinion is still an opinion. So what? And since when do the majority of pukes do anything BUT express opinions (devoid of facts).

[darkangel218]

61. Hmm..

I'm new here too, but I can smell an enemy

[Trajan]

63. Yes Mom ....

and I already cleaned my room .... Can I go play with Johnnie ?

[Hoyt]

67. You seem to have more faith in these greedy right wing bigots than most of us.

[Lex]

74. Seems gullible

or something. Hmmmm.

[Ruby the Liberal]

102. Yes - that does seem to be the case.

Given that Mittens is a centrist after all.

[Lex]

69. It's their first step toward killing off Social Security and it's dead obvious to EVERYone

with a brain.

[obxhead]

77. Romney has an official stance on an issue?

When the hell did that happen? From everything I've seen and read, which is vast, he has no plans on any issue.

[Smilo]

79. Paul Ryan Wants to Destroy Social Security & Medicare

http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/paul-ryan-wants-destroy-social-security-medicare

[TeamPooka]

80. Gee thanks for all those links to Mitt's website and GOP talking points.

are you sure you are at the right website to spend your leisure time?
Or was this place assigned to you?

[Progressive dog]

83. We have avoided strawmanning, cqan you?

BTW you misspelled your name. Goodby.

[jberryhill]

88. You must really get tired

Given your distaste for strawmen, it was nice of you to sign up at DU this week. I mean with all the time you have to spend elsewhere dealing with the lies about Obama.

[Alduin]

90. Why are you linking us to Repub websites?

[DJ13]

91. No

[Comrade_McKenzie]

97. Coincidence that "faineant" was FR's word of the day just 8 days ago?

"Word for the Day, FRiday, August 3, 2012 - Fainéant
FRee Dictionary ^ | FRiday | FRiday's Sub"

[Ruby the Liberal]

114. Ahahaha!

Allow me to contain my shock and surprise.

[pinboy3niner]

116. Nice catch!

[cali]

120. nice find.

now the little thing can go back to haterville and spread lies about how clever he is and how horrible and stupid DUers are and how he approached this in a calm, reasonable manner.

The amusing thing is that insane bigot, rimjob would shut down anything that was antithetical to their "values" in a NY minute and that this thread is still going.

[Scuba]

142. They think that we're idiots over here....

... cause that's what they're used to one their side.

[LiberalAndProud]

104. Romey wants retirees to pay for "optional" Medicare with vouchers.

In his own words:

a premium support program, which allows people to buy either current standard Medicare or a private plan

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/mitt-romney-embraces-privatizing-medicare


That, my friend, is privatization.

[Thinkingabout]

108. I got it now, you can choose to participate, like Rmoney chooses not to participate in paying taxes.

[rocktivity]

111. It's as true now as it was eight years ago

The simplest way to fund SS is by removing the payroll tax salary cap.

It stays solvent permanently, and EVERYONE can pay a LOWER rate.

http://agit-pop.com/gallery_item/bush-in-30-years


rocktivity

[grantcart]

112. and Medicare? Forget SS it is Medicare where the raping will occur, and I think you know that.

[Ruby the Liberal]

130. OP has 'concerns' about that as well:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021115720

[Yeah Its Spin]

117. Tu es vraiment fainéant !

[Tuesday Afternoon]

121. Gradually, the pot comes to a boil. No, thanks. he might be fooling some frogs but, not this one

[HiPointDem]

122. his plan allows the top 10% to opt out and destroys the program. they *are* advocating that.

[ibegurpard]

124. no

this isn't high school debate. this is going to determine who sets the policies that will actually affect all of our lives.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

126. It seems we can't even avoid trollspamming. nt

[maddezmom]

129. was going to say, concernspamming

but it's really one in the same.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

136. Hey if the

hair fits.

[valerief]

140. Boom! Nailed it!

[TBF]

127. It's lovely that you're polite at least -

but you're not convincing me that Mitt Romney would be a great president. Nice try, enjoy your stay ...

[cali]

134. I bet that he/she won't be polite about us when he goes back

haterville and recounts his/her sojourn to DU.

[Zen Democrat]

132. You don't recognize that your describing gutting SS and Medicare? Did your phakts come from phokz?

[darkangel218]

154. Lmao @ phakts and phokz!!!!

[valerief]

133. I don't see any freakin' details at Mittfalca's bullshit site.

First, for future generations of seniors, Mitt believes that the retirement age should be slowly increased to account for increases in longevity.
Second, for future generations of seniors, Mitt believes that benefits should continue to grow but that the growth rate should be lower for those with higher incomes.

For all I know the increased retirement age could be 100 in 2013 and the higher incomes could be anything over $25K.

I think I'd do better avoiding trolls.

[JaneyVee]

141. Fuck this OP

[AtomicKitten]

147. Your sources are suspect and so is your post. Clean up on aisle 5!!!

[AsahinaKimi]

152. agree and

I love your cat graphic!!!

[AtomicKitten]

156. DU voted 2-4 to keep it. LOL.

And back at ya with your dancing graphic! YUM!!

[AsahinaKimi]

161. Please help yourself!!

There are more where they come from!!! O shokuji o tanoshimi kudasai! (please enjoy your meal!)

[AtomicKitten]

162. Arigato!

[AsahinaKimi]

167. dou itashimashite

and I don't understand why the jury agreed to keep it .. I always thought the idea on DU was to not push GOP/Fox News talking points. Ryan was stating in that video that He wants to do what Barrack Obama could not do, but failed to mention how the GOP house of Representatives have done everything in their power to JUST SAY NO to the President.

I have one two words for Republicans... Baka tare!....morons.

[AtomicKitten]

180. MIRT prevails!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=288291&sub=trans

[AsahinaKimi]

183. Yoshi! iine!

(All right!) Good!!

[Warren Stupidity]

153. A more interesting question is, "is MIRT asleep at the wheel"?

[Solly Mack]

158. Promoting the GOP ticket on DemocraticUnderground and couching it in a concern for 'facts'.

I read where a jury allowed this to stand.

Someone, somewhere, is laughing.

[patrice]

165. Concern isn't always only what some people want us to think it is, i.e. it CAN be authentic.

It isn't, of course, necessarily authentic, but it also isn't necessarily in-authentic.

Knee-jerk reactions miss what is needed, rational analysis.

Medicare evolved as THE auxiliary of the FOR-PROFIT motive in "health" "care" in a systems that get nearly the poorest results for the highest costs in the world. If we want Medicare to survive this fact MUST be addressed: many (most?) of its treatment modalities developed out of the profit motive, NOT the care motive.

Please see my post #160 below.

[Solly Mack]

171. Of course concern can be honest.

Doesn't mean I buy the OP's "concern."

[patrice]

176. Absolutely agree. This is an anonymous board. This issue will help or hurt billions of people ...

I hope all of us get into the habit of respectfully challenging the rational bases for at least whatever "reasoning" is evident, if not for whatever facts/data that are available.

[patrice]

160. More political positioning prioritized ahead of the most good for the most people:

Medicare is a cash-cow for for-profit "health" "care" If we hope to PRESERVE Medicare that fact MUST be dealt with.

Here is Dr. Joshua Freeman, Chair of Family Practice and ACTIVE member of Physicians for a National Health Program on this subject:
http://medicinesocialjustice.blogspot.com/

In elder care in particular there are some very fancy 6-figure incomes, in some situations multiple 6-figure incomes even in LOW-END care facilities, 6-figure incomes built on top of what Medicare brings in, while direct care staffing is held down to absolutely marginal levels and benefits and wages suppressed amongst those under RN or MSW (e.g. CNAs, CMAs, Housekeeping, Maintenance - i.e. the positions without which the 6-figure people would have to CLOSE THE DOORS).

With all of the superPAC money out there, much of it coming from some of the biggest for-profit enterprises of all "health" "care", all of us need to be prepared to analyze all actors on this issue rationally.

[patrice]

170. This place hates the profit motive supposedly but watch it scream bloody murder when PROFIT enabled,

that's STRATEGICALLY enabled, by Medicare comes under scrutiny.

All of us need to read up on Risk Managers in 'health" "care", especially for their tactics in milking CMS reporting systems and faking for CMS survey inspections.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

173. I hope you're happy with yourselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12563162

[pinboy3niner]

177. OP AUTHOR HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!

[AsahinaKimi]

186. HEH!

[RagAss]

182. GET LOST TROLL !!!!

[WinkyDink]

184. What's your real point, Ye of Few Posts? That you're a gull who believes Republican websites?

[kestrel91316]

188. I see that you've got the Munster family's back. You ARE aware that this is

DEMOCRATIC Underground and it is not ok to come on here and support repukes - aren't you??

[gollygee]

189. Translation: I know SS issue will make Repubs lose votes, so please stop talking about it.

Your concern is noted.

[NYC_SKP]

191. ESADT

That's librul for "eat sit and die troll".

[spanone]

193. where are your tax returns mitty...what are you afraid of? what are you hiding?

[marmar]

196. "We"

Right.