If the majority of WE, THE PEOPLE were Nazis, ok

[Cary]

I would accept that and emigrate to Canada.

But they aren't the majority. They are a dwindling, scared white minority and they never garner a majority. They have to suppress votes, lie and cheat in order to impose their stupidity.

So I don't leave. I fight.

They stoop to the lowest levels to try to confuse me. I refuse to go down their rabbit holes and I stick to my focus. Like my motto, Vote Democratic, I go at them with laser sharp focus and simplicity. Currently I tell them that as Republicans they are complicit with white supremacists. They come at me with emotional bullshit.

Republicans are morally and intellectually bankrupt. They are down right now. It is no time to give up. I will continue to kick them and punch them as hard as I can.

Justice will prevail. Fascists, like you lurking losers, will lose. I see your mewling, losers. You will lose. You always do. Always.

[dlk]

1. Too Many Americans Have Forgotten WWII and the High Price We Paid Fighting Nazis and Fascism

This is a cancer that will metastasize if we don't root it out.

[Cary]

3. +1 trillion +

[zipplewrath]

2. Constitution built by white men

Unfortunately, we have a constitution that was written by white men that presumed only white men could govern and so they put in instruments to make sure that white men could ultimately control things. The vestiges of that system remain, despite our attempts to expand things. It makes it very hard for the majority of the population to govern. It makes it hard for the majority of the population to even get majority control. These vestiges do, however, make it easier for a minority to gain control and drift towards fascism.

[Cary]

4. Wrong

The Constitution was a compromise between white males, written with intentional ambiguities so that wiser future generations could evolve. And we have evolved.

This setback is temporary. It is the result of WE, THE PEOPLE not getting out to vote. We have no excuses. Just get out there and Vote Democratic! Don't make excuses. Don't indulge in petty infighting or Russian troll provocations. Cut the crap and fight against the fascists.

[zipplewrath]

5. Not really

It was written FOR white men who were quite racist at the time and thought only white male land owners could/should govern. It was written BY white men who drew on both the Enlightenment and the tribal structures of the natives. The enlightenment aspects allowed the "evolution". The compromises made to satisfy the rest still leave their vestiges today.

[Cary]

6. It left open the major questions of the day, by necessity

It would be nice to think that those questions could be resolved in a better way than engaging in ghe bloodiest war in our history, but it is what it is.

I think you project 21st Century values onto 18th Century historical characters. That is your perogative but it is nkt good history. It is like calling Abraham Lincoln a racist. Today if he said the things he said then a racist he most surely would be. But that's not the case. Nor is it the case for the founding fathers so really your exercise makes for some nice fiction.

The genius of The Constitution is exactly what I cited. It has withstood the test of time. Had it been what you or I might write today it wouldn't be remembered.

[zipplewrath]

7. Well, let's remember about England

Slavery, as the US practiced it before the revolution was fairly different than much of western Europe. Furthermore, the major question of the day was already about slavery, so it's not like this was an unknown idea. You can call them "21st century values", but Adams and Jefferson were already discussing them in the 1700's. Truth is, in England/Great Britain slavery was slowly being diminished/abolished during the 1700's and in fact contributed to the discussion at the time of the writing of the constitution. There were arguments at the time all during the early decades about Native rights. These were not unknown ideas. But much like the end of civil rights in the 50's, there were open discussions about who had the right to govern. And the powers that be were not all that aligned with the thinking of the Enlightenment, despite using so much of it to write the constitution.

The EC was designed to make sure the individuals, and not the population at large, would ultimately decide the presidency. Well into our history, long after the constitution was written, there were still discussions about who was "white" for the purpose of deciding who could govern. There were discussions in state legislatures about the Italians and Irish about whether they were "white". This was all for the purpose of determining who could govern.

Lincoln was "racist" in some of his early statements. A bit like Obama and gay marriage, it is clear that Lincoln either "evolved" on the topic, or he struggled early to find popular positions on the topic, but ultimately saw that there was no clear way to defend those positions. Alternately, he may have struggled to maintain old positions and realized full emancipation was the only way forward. We'll never know.

It isn't clear that anyone at the time would have known or understood terms like racist or bigot with respect to these issues. But what is clear is that there was an ongoing discussion at the time about who could govern and who could not and race and gender were a significant feature of those discussions. And the intentional decision was White Men.

[Cary]

9. Lincoln was clear

His priority was the Union.

I think you proved my point. You cannot judge historical characters outside of the context of their times. There are exceptions.

[zipplewrath]

11. You can judge their results

We've been left with the remnants of a system designed to empower white male landowners. The result is a system that has devolved into a system which is empowering a minority that struggles to maintain power.

[Cary]

12. Are you saying that because it's not perfect, the founding fathers suck?

It's like Churchill said, it's the worst system in the world except for everything else.

[zipplewrath]

15. No

I'm saying we are stuck with a system that now has some fatal flaws. The system had some serious imperfections that have been worsened by changes to the constitution and the nation.

[Cary]

16. You ignored the second part.

I can't accept your reasoning because it reflects no reality that I have observed. History just doesn't unfold in any way that resembles what you suggest. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The French Revolution should have succeeded, but it didn't.

There is a lesson in that.

[zipplewrath]

17. History has unfolded to here

It has done so because of the original structure, and the tinkering we have done since then.

[Cary]

18. "Original structure"

You mean paterfamilias?

Nothing has been "tinkered." It is a dialectic. A certain group is in power and that group adopts a rationalization for it's power. Eventually the group in power is undermined and a new group takes over with a new rationalization. In the case of our founding fathers they were wealthy men, of far greater wealth than the British peers who governed them and they figured that they didn't need those peers. Such is the nature of a successful revolution.

[treestar]

13. I agree it favors a minority and that at the time

only white landed men could vote. But it does not seem like that was the specific purpose. Under it, it could be changed so that women could vote. And then minorities and people who don't own land.

It was not purposely designed to favor white men as those men at that time could not even think of their not being favored - they had no concept of women or blacks voting or even those without land. But they did make it flexible to change with the times and there was some sense of that in Jefferson's comments.

We could do away with the Electoral College when it does not serve us well. I know it would take a Constitutional Amendment and that's a high bar, but it can be done. We could also look at whether the Constitution requires winner take all for each state's electoral votes.

It was also necessary to compromise with the slave-owning South. We could say they should not have done that and left the South to the British, but they did not find that practical and did not think they could beat the British unless all of the colonies participated. So they were unable to be that idealistic.

[zipplewrath]

14. Designed to empower a minority

It was intentionally designed to protect a minority from the tyranny of the majority. It was also structured to ensure that white men would have dominance. We have done some things to change that aspect, but none the less, the vestiges of the original system endure and that has enabled the country to be run by a minority. Truth is, the authors were more worried about mob rule than fascism. You'll note that the constitution mentions almost nothing about elections. The GOP figured this out a while back and intentionally leveraged the structure to gain and maintain control with only minority support.

[zipplewrath]

21. Purpose and effect

Alot of people were involved in the writing of the original constitution. I don't think one can easily say that there was alot of organized intent to much of it. It was designed by committee. However, there was the intent to avoid "mod rule" and so they structured it on a "representative" form of democracy where individuals would be empowered to govern. Voting was not a major concern. They focused greatly on state legislatures basically appointing people. In some cases they saw this as a way to avoid the influence of over reaction on the part of the population. The wanted to restrict the population that had the power of governing to a minority.

Yes, over the decades and centuries we have expanded the group that could vote and participate. But the underlying concepts of a separation between those that govern, and those governed, still remain. The system is still designed to avoid a power vacuum and hand governing power to someone, even if it represents a minority of the governed. We still have lifetime appointments to courts.

And the GOP recognized this about a decade ago and worked to organize a minority of the country into a position where they could govern with minority support. And they got rid of the Voting Rights Act and have gerrymandered and suppressed in a move to maintain power. The brought in Citizen United to finance the whole thing. And I suspect they are studying as we speak what the Russians did and trying to figure out how to emulate it.

[Azathoth]

20. The constitution wasn't written to protect "white men"

There is nothing in the constitution about "white men." Compromises were struck that benefited small, rural, and southern states as well as preserved the power of the ruling classes. Who were those compromises made at the expense of? Other white men (women and minorities weren't even considered). It was the votes of white men in New York that would get counted less than those of white men in Georgia.

I really wish people wouldn't try to use modern racial politics to understand 250-year-old documents. The simple truth is that if black people suddenly took over the southern and plains states, they'd be wielding the same kind of disproportionate power.

[zipplewrath]

22. To protect who wrote it.

The constitution was written to empower the people that wrote it. White men who got in their positions predominately through participation in various legislative activities. They were frequently men of some wealth and saw themselves as the ones that could be trusted the most to govern.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. K&R As Gandhi said "think of it, always"

Gandhi said, “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall – think of it – always.”

[Cary]

10. Love it!

Indeed it is a continnum.

And if you follow the progression you kniw that "conservatism" is doomed. The future is inclusive, not exclusive.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. Trump is doomed with recent changes to investigation into personal finances. read this:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211416934