General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis is how Democrats lose elections. I've been around long enough
to have seen this before. Democrats fighting with each other and Republicans egging them on. We have so much to do and so much to lose! Nancy Pelosi should be re-elected by acclimation.
My mother used to tell me and my brothers when we were fighting..."Stop it! You're all you've got."
Raven
(13,877 posts)on this takes away from the the planning and work that needs to be done to effectively take on Trump and the Republicans. Let's stick to the main tent and avoid the side shows.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)Nancy's got it all worked out which is why she should be Speaker for the next 2 years.
Caliman73
(11,724 posts)Pelosi is proceeding as if she will be the Speaker, and that is really why she should be the Speaker. I seriously doubt that any other congress person has an idea of an agenda or what it might take to get that agenda through. We need Pelosi at this critical juncture. Republicans know that, and that is why they have worked to egg on these challenges.
certainot
(9,090 posts)if the gop paid $1000/hr for radio time to attack and obstruct dems then 1200 stations doing 15hrs/day are worth about $18MIL/day or about $5BIL/year FREE for the republicans.
pelosi's fault is not recognizing and doing something about that but no other dems are. but when the left screams she's not left enough or she's not trying hard enough they're full of shit merely based on that single fact - that while they're whining they're letting a few hundred lying assholes on 1500 radio stations kick their ass.
year after year for 30 years.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)What? Do you want Pelosi to put up her own money? Tell us what you think she should have done?
Have you listened to WCPT - Chicago Progressive Talk Radio? I live in Michigan, but I stream it all the time.
certainot
(9,090 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2018, 11:46 AM - Edit history (1)
and when they do try, fool dems and progressives join the right in calling it a free speech issue
so i wouldn't say it's her fault, but dem leadership has to do something about it. the least they can do is stop ignoring it and give it the 'credit' it deserves.
with artificial intelligence-enhanced transcription they can now digitize the main talk radio gods so it can be analyzed and studied - so they can start getting ahead of it instead of always playing catch up on things like benghazi and health care and major reforms we want. that can be done on the local level too.
dem leadership can start with that
streaming is not free and easy as AM radio - chicagoans are lucky to have one of those 5% radio stations....
Scubamatt
(33 posts)Our current situation didnt just arise out of nothing when tRump came down that esclalator. It was the result of 30 years of messaging and framing -aka lies- from right wing media such as talk radio and Fox news- We allowed those outlets to create a framing about the Clintons (especially Hillary), about Al Gore, about John Kerry and Obama and we do little to create our own messaging. Our leadership just doesnt seem to get it, and thinks we can win the hearts and minds of the people by arguing about arcane technical points of public policy. For example, I am NOT anti-Pelosi, but I will always remember how the first thing she declared after regaining the House after the Iraq invasion was Impeachment is off the table; now, I am not naive, and understand that politicians have to be careful about over-promising, but that declaration sent a message that Bush had done nothing wrong worth even investigating! Here we are, 15 years later, and when have Repubs ever been forced to be accountable for the messes they create? We clean them up dutifully, trusting that the public will recognize our good works, yet they fall for Republican lies far too often. Or, when did you EVER hear Obama take a message to the public about the crass obstructionism of the Turtle over Merrick Garland? I want our leaders - Pelosi and Schumer et al to stop being Charlie Brown to the Repubs Lucy and start attacking the lock Repubs have on messaging in this country. This together with combating voter suppression and gerrymandering is ISSUE NO. 1, and necessary if we are ever to create a situation where we can start to address substantive issues of healthcare, climate change and the growing economic inequality. Through a ton of energy, we have now retaken the house -lets find a way to preserve that and grow that into the Senate and the Presidency in 2020!
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)like FB. They are low-info and don't listen to any contrary information. Think all the leadership though including former dem presidents could be called to task on this. Would love to see them all go on a retreat with some creative types and brainstorm different approaches to combating right wing and media savvy -45.
Johnny2X2X
(18,969 posts)We haven't even found out who will be in our caucus yet, and we can't even discuss leadership for a few days? Give me a break, there is plenty of time to have a vigorous debate about who should be speaker.
You know why we lost in 2016 in part? Because we didn't allow the appearance of a fair primary (Even though it was fair), shutting down and shouting down any questions about Pelosi leading the House gives that same impression, that Dems aren't willing to listen to new voices and Hillary/Pelosi have a birthright to lead the party.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Are we really going to have these kinds of arguments again?
Johnny2X2X
(18,969 posts)As if Pelosi is the only one who worked hard and could be a good Speaker. She might be the best person for the job, probably is, but to shut down any talk of debating it makes it seem like her supporters for the job feel like she's entitled to it.
I want to win in 2020, let's hear Pelosi and whoever challengers her make their cases as to why they are the best person to lead us to victory in 2020. That's all I'm asking for. And for that it seems the official response is, "there can be no debate, there's no one else but Pelosi." I do not accept that, and I'm of the thought that it's extremely likely that Pelosi is the best person for the job, but the fact no one even wants to discuss it is giving me even more pause.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I do think the response to it has not been what it should have been, IMO.
I'm sure Pelosi and the other leading reps can handle this, though, in their own way, in the House itself. I'm thinking there's going to be some serious discussing going on in the House, explaining to the insurrectors that the timing is all wrong.
This is a critical time, where we need to hit the ground running. This may be our only opportunity to deal with Trump and Trumpism. I happen to think that we should stick with experienced people, including Pelosi, right now, as well as chairmanships of key committees. But none of the leaders is "entitled" to his/her position, and it should be made clear to all the reps that that is the party's position. They'll get their chance to run for leadership positions, if they hold off for now, after we get past this critical time. The more experienced reps should explain that Pelosi is the most experienced at that job right now, and the Party needs that. We do need to hit the ground running, and run fast.
The insurrectors have done damage to themselves by not waiting a year or so, IMO. By not recognizing the perilous time next year will be, and that we need super experienced people. The fact that on day one they started with this in a way shows that they aren't ready for the job, since they don't seem to understand the position the country is in, and that the Democrats in the House are our only hope, and we NEED the most experienced right now.
But I'm sure the leading reps in the House will handle the insurrecting group's concerns with the professionalism and courtesy that their experience gives them. I hope all this goes more smoothly going forward. They have a lot of work to do. Bills, investigations, always fund raising....
JHan
(10,173 posts)which is why Tom Harkin defeated bill clinton in 92,
why Hillary defeated Obama in 08 too...
Yeah no, a certain someone lost his primary fair and square in 2016, and refusal to accept that fact is why we ended up in a mess. Enough with the revisionism.
So sick of this BS
JHan
(10,173 posts)Now you have people inventing reasons for a loss.
Bernie didn't play it as well as he could have even tho I won't deny he added some energy that wasn't there but his loss is his own and it was a trouncing. And it's not the fault of some establishment, whatever that is.
The Democratic party has so many different groups, to label such a fractious union under the instruction of one "establishment" was always ridiculous. The key has always been winning the coalition and since he clearly had presidential ambitions in 2012 ( because you don't willy-nilly threaten to primary a sitting president out of the blue) he could have done things differently. He didn't.
He was lucky it was just a showdown between him and HRC where he could create a certain narrative.
damn lucky.
yardwork
(61,537 posts)Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Were fanned by Russian bots and a candidate that didn't know he was being used.
LexVegas
(6,024 posts)DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)I despise all who are against Nancy. The five white guys have a less progressive record than Nancy. WTF people. No wonder the repubs are laughing their asses off at us.
Nitram
(22,759 posts)We're already acclimated to Pelosi.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)The position is isn't for Queen of the Congress, it's mostly an administrative position. The people opposing her have taken the GOP bait and it's almost embarrassing.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)I'm right there with you. I don't get it at all.
Caliman73
(11,724 posts)It sets the entire agenda and assigns committee positions. You are ABSOLUTELY correct that it is not Queen or King, but it isn't merely and administrative position.
You are also absolutely right that the people opposing Pelosi seem to have taken GOP bait as well as the bait of other entities that want to so discord in the party. Pelosi was effective as Speaker last time, and was effective as Minority leader. The GOP would much rather have a person who wants to "work together" which is code for, "do what we want".
I have not seen one solid answer about who would be better and why exactly they would be better. I have only seen, "new blood", "Fresh face", "new ideas"; as if that is going to matter one bit against the tactics that the House GOP will use to derail any legislation.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)I've seen anything like this. I think the root of the problem is the newbies who made promises to their constituents . . . for whatever reason.
Caliman73
(11,724 posts)There are two groups of incoming Reps. that made promises. We "ultra progressive" younger members who are kind of like the "don't trust anyone over 30" crowd in the 60's and 70's, who ironically became the yuppies of the 80's. Then we have the "conservidem" who like Ryan in Ohio, and Lamb in Pennsylvania represent slightly redder and Whiter districts. The latter appears to be that ones who are actually pushing the fight and I think, as someone pointed out in this interesting thread
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211439723
that the electorate has changed greatly over the last 12 years for Democrats. The conservidem is in a pickle because while they were able to win by going against the "establishment" or at least against Pelosi in their districts, the national electorate appears to be more on par with what Pelosi represents (solid Progressive policy, but in a measured and sustainable way).
I think that the story is actually getting hyped up way more than it actually is. Nancy Pelosi will secure her necessary votes to be the Speaker and she will be great ... again, and the Republicans will hate her ... again.
peggysue2
(10,819 posts)The only people who really, really love this dogfight are:
The Republicans who have felt Pelosi's rodeo whip on many occasions, and
The Press because an intra-party fight makes juicy headlines.
Unless we think a circular firing squad will win us anything in 2020, this brouhaha should end, tout suite. Hand Nancy the gavel and let's get ready for the next challenging 2 years with an experienced and shrewd Captain guiding us through rough waters.
Pelosi knows what she's doing and the support from 'concerned' members is dwindling. Anyone who wants to rip defeat out of the jaws of victory, should sit down and suck their thumb. Because this fight? It beyond Dumb and Dumber.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)Why do they think they should start at the top? We are talking about Nancy being Speaker for 2 years. She will mentor and move the newbies to leadership positions. Why would they think that they would take over the party at this important time? I'm serious.
KayF
(1,345 posts)imho it's being exaggerated
bhikkhu
(10,711 posts)if someone was there to pick up the baton. There's been some grousing, sure, but she's in the position because no one has really stepped up. I'd love to see a new and younger Democratic leader take over. But there's no denying she's been effective, and will do her best going forward.
One sign how effective she is is how much the other side despises her, and its pretty disappointing to see many democrats turned off just by that. As if its her fault. And then imagining that replacing her with someone the repugs liked better might be a strategic move. That would be funny if it weren't such the kind of boneheaded idea people often fall for.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)If they can get behind a cretin like that, can't our folk be expected to disagree amongst themselves...give everyone their say...then act in unison as Democrats... as a party. To get behind a smart, intelligent, experienced leader? Forget the gender.
The Republicans are counting on the disagreement...dismemberment...discontent. What? We want to help them? I don't think so.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and you'll be happy to know that we are winning big.
brooklynite
(94,327 posts)Jostling for jobs (even "squabbling" among newly elected Members of Congress happens after every election, and nobody remembers a thing about it two years later.
JaneQPublic
(7,113 posts)Democrats are not mindless, obedient followers like Republicans, all parroting the same talking points.
Yes, we fight amongst ourselves -- perhaps too much at times -- but that's what happens in a diverse "big tent" party where everyone has an opinion and no hesitation to tell you about it.
Like I always say, the mascots for the GOPers and Dems ought to be changed from the elephant and donkey to the sheep and cat, because Dems are just about as difficult to herd as cats.
yardwork
(61,537 posts)Oh wait. That didn't happen. I guess it happens only when the leader is a woman?
brooklynite
(94,327 posts)...and since the leading alternative to Nancy Pelosi is ALSO a woman, I don't see that as much of an issue.
yardwork
(61,537 posts)If Nancy Pelosi was a man, NOBODY would be questioning her position.
Same old same old.
brooklynite
(94,327 posts)yardwork
(61,537 posts)brooklynite
(94,327 posts)yardwork
(61,537 posts)If a woman does sometimg to repress other women it's not really repressive?
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)There is a generational shift going on and Nancy is part of the old guard.
I am actually fairly certain if it wasn't Nancy it would be another woman.
I'm 50-50 on the entire issue. On one hand you need an experienced hand to be at the wheel who has been in these battles before. On the other hand we just completed an election cycle where our new representatives for the most part trended younger and diverse. I'm not sure Rep. Pelosi is the person that represents where the party is going.
yardwork
(61,537 posts)This "old guard" script was written by the Republicans. They fear Pelosi for good reason. That's why I want her to stay.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)I don't believe republicans fear Nancy Pelosi anymore than we fear Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump.
I'm 50-50 on the entire thing. Either way whoever is speaker will star in the fundraising emails and letters and be the topic of conversation on Fox News for 2 years.
Cosmocat
(14,558 posts)nm
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)A debate who is going to lead the party is fine as long as it is resolved before Christmas.
elfin
(6,262 posts)And it is usually on the cusp of real victory that we increase the backstabbing, third party (Nader, Stein (Green Party) to drain votes away from the main candidate etc. This impulse must be tamped down until Trump and his ilk are GONE.
Dem Leadership must LEAD to the future ala Pelosi significantly involving our future stars to take over after 2020.
The media sharks feed on strife and exacerbate it to our detriment.
Stinky The Clown
(67,757 posts)I could not agree more!
Your mother was very wise.
K&R
trof
(54,256 posts)INdemo
(6,994 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)
McKim
(2,412 posts)The news media is egging this fight on. It is bad for we Democrats. This needs to all be done in private or not at all. This makes us look weak. It smells a bit misogynist to me. Republicans want her out because they hate powerful women. It is not their party!
Norbert
(6,038 posts)"I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a democrat."
We are on the cusp of booting out these assholes. Let's not blow it.
Nitram
(22,759 posts)Raven
(13,877 posts)rapping rapping at my chamber door.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)to leadership changes and inter-party squabbling.
CrispyQ
(36,419 posts)Most people aren't political & this isn't even on their radar. The dems lose because they focus on the undecided voters & the independent voters instead of going after the biggest pool of voter, the non-voters.
We need to make sure everyone who voted in 2018 votes again in 2020 & get even more non-voters off their asses & into the polling booth.
DFW
(54,272 posts)The Republicans are terrified (with good reason, I might add) of a unified front of opposition coming from Democrats.
A rock solid phalanx of support for Nancy Peolsi to regain the speaker's gavel absolutely terrifies them. They will do anything to prevent that from happening, including sending out trolls to boards like DU to create nastily-worded opposition to her.
demigoddess
(6,640 posts)and abused.
demosincebirth
(12,529 posts)pulled the trigger and we got "tricky Dick." The Vietnam war lasted another 6 years and 25,000 young
lives lost.
INdemo
(6,994 posts)are/were posing a Democrats..I mean really
the fight against Pelosi began before all the votes were counted...Is this a Republican tactic?
Republicans first line of Defense will be by Trump and the Republican Senate leader
"See I told you so" The Democrats main goal is to harass the President"
So Democrats have to pass numerous bills along with making those accountable in the Trump Admin.
are/were posing a Democrats..I mean really
Or is that post promoting the "fake Democrats" argument and that there's "no difference" between Republicans and Democrats??
Celerity
(43,079 posts)I am not saying you are wrong, but that is some dodgy shit
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)#Sad. #Fuckedup