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Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:25 PM Nov 2018

Can someone please define "Change" for me?

I keep seeing "change", "new blood", and "new ideas". What I don't see after those statements is anything definitive. Nothing specific. Nothing even general about a direction in which the change would lead. There are some newly elected House members like the much maligned AOC who want more aggressive action on a Green New Deal, with which Nancy Pelosi, as the figure of the "old guard" which needs to be "changed" has agreed. Other people however just keep putting out, "change", "new blood", "new ideas".

We can't really have any kind of a discussion without an understanding of exactly what "change" is, what it looks like, and who will take the Democratic party there with which at least general steps.

As a person who has worked in the human social services field for the last 24 years I can tell you that everybody says they want to "change" but when the real work of actually "changing" starts, change isn't such a shiny and happy thing. I am not saying that to discourage discussion or change in any way, I just want to know what people are actually thinking that this "change" idea is.

So again, can someone please tell me what exactly is this "change" thing that seems to need to run through Nancy Pelosi?

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Can someone please define "Change" for me? (Original Post) Caliman73 Nov 2018 OP
This isn't an answer to your question, per se, but "change" is the most abused term in politics. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #1
leads to another question... Caliman73 Nov 2018 #3
Change is constant. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #13
It certainly is constant and basically unstoppable. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #15
As I wrote in that post and many others, the GOP base is fueled by racism and sexism. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #16
++++ "centrist vs far left" doesn't serve us well. Very true. JHan Nov 2018 #27
I read your post. Well said. The dismissal or outright bashing of "far left" positions... Garrett78 Nov 2018 #28
The economic argument is really driven by the populism one as well.. JHan Nov 2018 #29
and this touches on the concerns you've raised in this thread: JHan Nov 2018 #38
They argue for change because they want to get someone out of office. LiberalFighter Nov 2018 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer Nov 2018 #2
20 million voters? Caliman73 Nov 2018 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer Nov 2018 #9
The corresponding Trump supporter mantra for 2016 was "shake things up". greyl Nov 2018 #5
Agreed, which is why I have asked any promoting this "change" specifically with Pelosi... Caliman73 Nov 2018 #7
Usually it means "burn it all down so I can toast hot dogs & declare my magnificence." Hekate Nov 2018 #6
Hug? Caliman73 Nov 2018 #8
Yes thanks. Yesterday's tweets were posted from a Berlin-style bunker by a raving orange loony... Hekate Nov 2018 #11
Best description yet. Squinch Nov 2018 #33
AOC is change Conflict Nov 2018 #10
And she supports Nancy Pelosi as Speaker. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #12
Socialist? No, Democratic Socialist. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #42
In my opinion, this "new blood" and "new ideas" business comes from those who don't really betsuni Nov 2018 #14
Which is precisely why I ask the question. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #21
Two things I just saw. betsuni Nov 2018 #24
Thanks. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #39
Change is a process, not a goal... Wounded Bear Nov 2018 #17
Well put! Caliman73 Nov 2018 #19
This is so important. And its something republicans are really Squinch Nov 2018 #32
I don't get it generally. JHan Nov 2018 #18
Thanks. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #20
I hope they do. Thanks for the OP btw, because the change thing been bothering me a while. JHan Nov 2018 #22
"the idea that only one person can do something": Americans watch too many movies. betsuni Nov 2018 #25
it's like "olilgarch" "establishment" "status quo" . JI7 Nov 2018 #23
All words that don't mean what those who most use them think they mean. Squinch Nov 2018 #31
Change would be the opposite of status quo Raine Nov 2018 #26
You mean like voting for trump or stein to bring the revolution faster? Squinch Nov 2018 #30
Yep... that's exactly what Sarandon said. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #35
Define status quo. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #40
The notion of "change" and "new blood" is manifest and self-evident in CONTEXT. Think about it: LBM20 Nov 2018 #34
That is the first time you have actually defined change. Caliman73 Nov 2018 #41
Those advocating change imo mean they want to get rid of Nancy. LiberalFighter Nov 2018 #37

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
1. This isn't an answer to your question, per se, but "change" is the most abused term in politics.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 11:31 PM
Nov 2018

The reason no party stays in power for very long is because people are always wanting "change." That's a big reason why I keep touting the following piece: https://www.vox.com/2018/5/1/17258866/democratic-party-supreme-court-republicans-trump-election.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
3. leads to another question...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:02 AM
Nov 2018

I had a very long response to the article written, but I deleted it. Perhaps I will post in a new thread.

Thanks for the response. I agree that change is such a nebulous and overused word. It can mean anything.

I want to change. I need to lose weight because I am heavy and it is affecting my health and activities. I used to be an athlete. I know I need to change. I know what I need to do to change. I have moments that I convince myself that I am ready to change. I have started and followed through at times, but then I stop. I consider change because I am dissatisfied with the way things are, but the thing is, unless there is a sustainable plan and a direction with short obtainable goals, change seems to be a daunting thing and it can become easier to accept your "normal" despite "wanting change".

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
13. Change is constant.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:58 AM
Nov 2018

For instance, demographics are changing. Views on everything from gay rights to health care to gender identity are changing. Fashion and automobile styles are changing. The climate is changing.

As for those wanting a change in who leads the Democratic Party in the US House of Representatives, there are those who think Pelosi is too polarizing (by virtue of being a woman with "San Francisco values," as Republicans like to say) and there are those who think Pelosi is too moderate or too liberal. I've written about what I think is at the heart of the Pelosi matter: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11436338.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
15. It certainly is constant and basically unstoppable.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:03 AM
Nov 2018

It can be delayed and mitigated, which both parties have engaged in for various issues.

I read your post and agree. It is about the rarely discussed "status quo" which is neither Republican or Democratic, but American and historically a global thing. Along with racism, I would also suggest sexism. I did appreciate Bernie's economic message but as the Primary wound down. I noticed the "blind spot" which I called it, especially because at the time I was listening a lot to Make it Plain with Mark Thompson on Sirius XM. Hillary had been on the show, as had her surrogates, at least a few times. Bernie nor any of his people came on the show, nor (according to Thompson) had they contacted him to set anything up. Then when he lost the Southern Primaries and sort of "dismissed" them, it was too apparent. He was too stuck on the classical "class struggle" and did not really understand how intertwined race and gender are with class struggle. You can't really separate them especially not in America.

I am a man biologically and I am cisgender. I do not feel much of a threat to my existence, if women in general and women of color specifically become more empowered. As I believe Zerlina Maxwell said (and forgive me if I attribute incorrectly) "White people are scared that if people of color obtain power that we will oppress them, when that is not the point. We just want to show up as our authentic selves without a problem."

The only thing that might be gone that I would miss is watching boxing, but that says more about me than about the people who object to the sport.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
16. As I wrote in that post and many others, the GOP base is fueled by racism and sexism.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:24 AM
Nov 2018

As I also wrote, Sanders has learned to acknowledge just how blatantly racist and sexist Trump is. But, like Tim "other females" Ryan, he still doesn't really get how to talk about systemic racism and sexism. Bernie's not well-versed in oppression theory. I've suggested that may be due, in part, to Vermont being the whitest state in the US. Racism, at the very least, has never really been on his radar.

At the same time, the centrist vs. "far left" (or what much of the developed world considers mainstream) narrative that some (including many Democrats who are anti-Bernie) are pushing does not serve us well. It bolsters the right wing and media-driven narrative that says right wing extremism is normal but things like single-payer and free post-secondary education (both popular among the general public) are completely crazy notions. This is how the Overton Window has been shifted so far to the right.

I don't agree with the notion that McCaskill, Bredesen and Donnelly needed to try and appeal to Republicans in order to win. When given a choice between a genuine Republican and a Democrat trying to win over Republicans, Republicans will opt for the genuine article. It's better for Democrats to do whatever it takes to boost turnout in the metro areas and reach out to those who aren't engaged in the political process. In many instances, this means a shift to the left and not the right.

In other words, I have a real problem with Bernie Sanders while at the same time objecting to the basis for some of the criticism of "far left" politicians such as Sanders. My position is less black and white and more nuanced.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Another way of saying what I wrote in that post about the Pelosi matter is this: there exists a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between social justice and economic justice (this - and not an opposition to so-called "far left" positions - is at the heart of my issue with Bernie). Forgive me for this lengthy copy and paste of a post I made long ago:

People often bemoan the fact that millions vote against their economic interests. But the reason why is clear. They are voting *for* their perceived cultural/social interests.

Absent racism, the Republican Party would cease to be viable. The Democratic Party message is infinitely better on every issue that should matter to working people.

In Ohio, Rob Portman (a major advocate of NAFTA) outperformed Trump. So much for the issue of trade being oh so important to Trump voters.

It's been postulated that social injustices are caused by wealth or income disparities. So, if we address the latter, we'll address the former. That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between social and economic justice.

I'm sympathetic to what many dismiss as "far left" points of view, but this is one major issue that many leftists get wrong. In fact, you might even say people who make the above claim have it completely backwards. The fostering and exploitation of bigotry (along with race-based voter suppression and gerrymandering) is what enables Republicans to win political victories, which leads to right wing economic policies being enacted. Those policies hurt more than anyone those who are already most oppressed. Then, the wealth gap between white individuals and persons of color is justified using various stereotypes.

This has been the case since the founding of the US on the genocide of one people and the enslavement of another. Remember, race is a social construct. And "whiteness" (along with its supposed superiority) was an invention borne out of the need to prevent a united front by all poor, oppressed people. Whites would be indentured servants with light at the end of the tunnel, while Negroes would be kept in bondage. Poor whites would be thrown a bone (and a whole lot of propaganda), enough to make them feel superior, enough to make them feel like they had more in common with their oppressors than their fellow oppressed.

Social Security (initially), the GI Bill, access to housing and other investment opportunities, the right to vote, access to higher education, access to employment with a decent wage, access to a fair trial and so much more was essentially denied to persons of color and women. Those injustices (even those that were seemingly resolved) continue to impact the present, including the wealth gap between white households and black and brown households, between men and women. Therefore, a rising tide has not historically lifted all boats. Ta-Nehisi Coates makes "The Case for Reparations."

This is why social justice victories (legalizing gay marriage) and breaking barriers (first Black POTUS, first woman POTUS, first transgender state legislator, etc.) constitute more than mere symbolism. They are cracks in the facade, and crucial steps toward addressing economic injustice.

Much has been made of the *white* working class, or even white working class men. Democrats already do better than Republicans among the working class. In saying Democrats shouldn't go out of their way to appeal to *white* working class men, the point isn't to denigrate that subset of the population. The point is that the Democratic Party platform should already appeal to the working class. And, for the most part, it does, based on exit polls following every election.

Why speak specifically of *white* working class folks? We all know why. Either it's because there's this assumption that only white people work or experience economic anxiety (horribly racist and obviously false), or it's because a certain portion of *white* working class folks are voting based on factors that have nothing to do with candidate positions on wage stagnation, workplace safety, health care, equal pay, paid family leave and all of the other issues that should matter to the working class. If that's the case, and I think we all know that it is, what does one suggest Democratic candidates do?

Should Democratic candidates not talk about criminal injustice, the race-based "War on Drugs," race-based voter suppression, a path to citizenship and the fact that US policy has been a driver of immigration all around the world, reproductive rights, equal pay, a culture that suggests sexual assault is tolerable, and so on? If not talking about those things, or - worse - taking the opposite position is what it will take to win over a certain subset of the population, then that's just too bad. As Dr. King said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Just as some rich folks recognize the danger of extreme economic disparity, we should all want less disparity (in terms of wealth, criminal justice, medical care, housing, etc.) between white folks and persons of color, between men and women, between gay and straight. Get on board with Democrats or lose, because ultimately "the arc of the moral universe bends toward justice."

Going back to the invention of race/whiteness, the fostering and exploitation of bigotries has enabled economic disparities in the US. Economic disparities aren't what enable racism and sexism, though economic disparities are used - after the fact - as justification for social/cultural wealth disparities (again, stereotypes are used to justify the wealth gap between black and white households, for instance). Racism and sexism are what enable economic disparities. Whiteness and patriarchy had to be invented as a means to divide and conquer.

We must address racism (including xenophobia) and sexism head-on. If we don't, there's no hope of substantially redistributing wealth or opportunity. A common response to what I’ve written is that “we must fight for both economic and social justice” or that “it’s not an either-or situation.” Of course it isn’t. Of course Democrats and all people of conscience should be fighting for progressive taxation and closing tax loopholes, paid family leave, universal health care, ending imperialism, and so on. My point, though, is that right wing economic viewpoints survive and prosper precisely because of bigotry. Absent racism alone (to say nothing of other forms of bigotry), the Republican Party would cease to be viable.

And we must recognize that a rising tide is not sufficient. Measures must be taken to reverse history, so to speak. A good place to start: https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/.

Lastly, a message for the young folks and others who are hoping for a viable left wing alternative to the Democratic Party in this 2-party system of ours. The first step is ending the viability of the Republican Party. And we do that by significantly diminishing racism, sexism, heterosexism and xenophobia (because that, and not right wing economic policy, is what's keeping the GOP alive). In the meantime, you need to support the only viable party that stands in the way of fascism. And you need to recognize that addressing social injustice is key to addressing economic injustice.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
27. ++++ "centrist vs far left" doesn't serve us well. Very true.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 05:17 AM
Nov 2018

coincidentally I made a similar point earlier in another thread and I touched on Identity politics

"Identity politics" was always with us, even when white men dominated the arena entirely. And the center left, centrist vs far left doesn't capture the diversity of our politics either. https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11442117

and the centrist thing is a canard. We need a richer way of describing the differences.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
28. I read your post. Well said. The dismissal or outright bashing of "far left" positions...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 06:01 AM
Nov 2018

Last edited Sat Nov 17, 2018, 06:37 AM - Edit history (1)

...has become a popular and disturbing trend on DU. As I've hopefully made clear, one can critique the white working class/economic anxiety/anti-"identity politics" narrative (which has been spread far and wide - over the last 2 years - by everyone from Bernie Sanders to Tim Ryan to media personalities to right wing extremists) without attacking positions that are relatively mainstream in much of Europe (positions that understandably poll really well here in the US).

My objection to that narrative aside, I'll take Bernie Sanders over Tim Ryan/Claire McCaskill/Joe Donnelly (or, obviously, any right winger) every day of the week and twice on Sundays. But give me Kamala Harris over Sanders. Sanders will not have my full support or the support of our party's base as long as he subscribes to a narrative that has been proven false by study after study (which confirm that Republican support is not driven by economic anxiety but by racist and sexist attitudes).

JHan

(10,173 posts)
29. The economic argument is really driven by the populism one as well..
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 08:52 AM
Nov 2018

Populism has always been connected to racism, nativism, antisemitism and xenophobic politics. The largest populist movement in the U.S was the KKK after all. It is also incoherent and deeply manipulative - to tie it all back into the OP, "change" was the trojan horse which let it in and where "The People" vs."The Elites," are presented as groups with immutably conflicting interests.

The populist of course decides who are the people and who are the elite, and lobbing bombs at the elite when you don't define them properly ( conveniently you just choose whoever criticizes you at the moment, once you think you can paint them as evil corporatists or "establishment" ) The impetus to attack being aggrievement - and before you know it, anyone who criticizes you is the elite and you come to full Trumpian politics with a massive side order of denialism. You have your moving attack, and anyone who is against you ends up in your LOS to be picked off. This is untenable.

This is why we heard a lot of "Let's just stop talking about race" since 2016, there's a real aversion and squeamishness in dealing with truths because it just complicates everything. We do need someone who can articulate these things because the Republicans have their cultural vision of America. We have our own and should not be ashamed to broadcast what it is, without making absurd prevarications about the motivations of people who are "uncomfortable" voting for black candidates yet not racist. ( dear God, I never thought I'd hear that from someone on "our" side - not EVER )

LiberalFighter

(50,825 posts)
36. They argue for change because they want to get someone out of office.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:07 AM
Nov 2018

Change should be a minor point. It should be about the future and the direction to take. Whoever runs for President on the Democratic side needs to push for getting America back on track. We were on the right track when Obama was President. It needed a few more route changes but it was on the right track.

Response to Caliman73 (Original post)

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
4. 20 million voters?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:05 AM
Nov 2018

Trump voters?

Would it not make more sense to try to appeal to the 100 million voters who didn't bother to cast a ballot rather than go after 20 million people who cast a ballot for a person fundamentally at odds with the ideals of America?

Response to Caliman73 (Reply #4)

greyl

(22,990 posts)
5. The corresponding Trump supporter mantra for 2016 was "shake things up".
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:11 AM
Nov 2018

Without detail, it means nothing.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
7. Agreed, which is why I have asked any promoting this "change" specifically with Pelosi...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:20 AM
Nov 2018

to define what this "change" is and how it would be achieved. Obviously if Pelosi loses her bid for the Speakership, well, that is change. It just reminds me of the underwear gnomes from South Park who had a plan to steal underwear for profit:


Step 1 - Steal underpants
Step 2 -
Step 3 - Profit

to which the South Park boys asked throughout... What's step 2? To which the response was, "Step 1 steal underpants, Step 2, Step 3 profit" followed by some vulgar altercation.

So again, for anyone. What is the change?

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
6. Usually it means "burn it all down so I can toast hot dogs & declare my magnificence."
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:19 AM
Nov 2018

Sorry, but I am feeling particularly cynical just now.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
8. Hug?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:22 AM
Nov 2018


I know. I feel it too. Often. I am procrastinating on writing a paper for a class so I am just filling the role of "social scientist"/ devil's advocate.

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
11. Yes thanks. Yesterday's tweets were posted from a Berlin-style bunker by a raving orange loony...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:28 AM
Nov 2018

...and some freshman House Democrats want to declare the political death of our best warrior. The stupid, it burns.

betsuni

(25,442 posts)
14. In my opinion, this "new blood" and "new ideas" business comes from those who don't really
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:06 AM
Nov 2018

understand how politics works, mistake it for activism maybe. Their opinions of the Democratic Party aren't always based on facts. The idea that the party has moved to the right over the last few decades, for example, and that candidates (only Democratic, of course) benefiting from money given by employees of corporations to run their campaigns means they are hopelessly "beholden."

Everything they say is as strangely vague as the "new blood" or "status quo" as some sort of insult. People should really form their own opinions instead of repeating what they hear others say, but it's easier to copy.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
21. Which is precisely why I ask the question.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:16 AM
Nov 2018

I like to have an operational definition at least, otherwise there is nowhere to take any kind of conversation.

Thanks for the input.

betsuni

(25,442 posts)
24. Two things I just saw.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 04:31 AM
Nov 2018

Cory Booker on Real Time with Bill Maher, about Facebook and Amazon, said these were supposed to be liberal companies run by "tech kids who would be able to bring us a better future. They would be the disruptors, those kids would come up with a great new set of opportunities for us. And it turns out that they are equally fallible..." (and Maher adds, equally greedy, 'How much money do you have to have when you wear the same T-shirt every day?&quot .

Whoopi on The View talks about Justice Democrats (the name freaks her out, it's "taking a little punch at people&quot . "So my question is this: are you saying other Democrats who have been fighting for 25 or 30 years aren't justice Democrats? ... You need experience to handle this stuff. ... You can't come in and pee all over everything." Pelosi and Feinstein have been battling their male counterparts on both sides: "If you're going to be the new folks, you people need to do your homework. ... You know what aged them? Fighting for the right to be an American 100%."

Youth is wasted on the wrong people (one of my favorite quotes from "It's a Wonderful Life&quot .

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
39. Thanks.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:02 PM
Nov 2018

I am not a huge fan of Diane Feinstein, but I can tell you precisely why, and I can also say that if it were between her and the absolute best Republican, I would still vote for Feinstein EVERY time. I have seen her fight for progressive causes, but I have also seen Diane sign on to much legislation, especially around "security" that empowers the "State" to spy on and intrude upon people's rights. I even understand the supposed motivation given her experience with the Mascone-Milk Assassinations and later experience with Richard Ramirez and the crime surge in the 80's. I don't think that Feinstein is evil or bad, I just disagree with some of her policy decisions.

The worst thing betsuni is that this "fight for change", especially around Nancy Pelosi, isn't being driven by "young and naive" people. It is primarily driven by the more conservative elements within the Democratic Party. I have said, that the five Reps who are most vocal are two relative newbies and 3 guys that have about 5 to 10 years in Congress, and Marcia Fudge, from what I can tell, has been a good Rep for her district the last 10 years, all of a sudden decides that the Speakership is a good idea? This doesn't make sense. Why hasn't Cummings, Lewis, Waters, Hoyer, or other folks who have been in much longer and have more experience gone after the position?

There is value to youth. It is drive and passion, but it does need temperance.

Wounded Bear

(58,618 posts)
17. Change is a process, not a goal...
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:40 AM
Nov 2018

the mistake happens when people start running around babbling about change without really having a goal in mind.

I get a lot of that on sports boards I hang out on. Have a bad game and everybody starts screaming about firing the coach or the players or someone because they suck and we have to change. Seldom does anybody really have an alternative in mind. And even if they do, usually there is a snowball's chance in a Jacuzzi that it could actually happen. No matter. They just want change.

Change for change's sake is pretty meaningless.

The same could be said about "progresivism." Ask a thousand progressives what it actually means to them and you'll probably get at least 500 different answers. Oh, everybody pretty much agrees on the big stuff, but the devil is in the details, as they say. With 230 or so Dems and counting in Congress, there's a lot of details people are arguing over. These are the fault lines that Repubs and the RW media exploit on us.

What a lot of folks don't understand is that sometimes even old timers can implement change if you give them the right support.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
19. Well put!
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:08 AM
Nov 2018

change in people is definitely the process by which they alter patterns of behaviors, sometimes systematically but not necessarily in order to achieve a desired outcome. Obviously that is a simplistic idea of change, but it has validity. Sometimes change occurs unexpectedly and unplanned, but that kind of change has as much chance of being traumatic as it does beneficial.

I remember President Obama pleading with Democrats (and I assume anyone else who would listen) to "MAKE ME CHANGE". He meant it too. As powerful as a President is within government, they cannot arbitrarily make changes without potentially disastrous consequences. If you have the backing of the populace, you can effect change more easily.

I know it isn't popular to say, but Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was at least partially right when she said that she wanted to support the Sunrise people to show Nancy Pelosi that people had her back on pushing through the Green New Deal. Like it or not, if movements like that can get started and maintain their focus, they can certainly be the driving force behind change beneficial to climate change mitigation, just like the Parkland students have been a catalyst for movement on prevention of gun violence.

Squinch

(50,934 posts)
32. This is so important. And its something republicans are really
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 09:36 AM
Nov 2018

good at. Us not so much. We need to get better.

Republicans identify the change they want and seed the people to make it happen. We find people we like and hope they will make the changes we want.

For example, republicans identified the courts, reduced voting rights and increased income inequality as their goals a generation ago. They have been steadily working to make those changes for a generation, regardless of who they have in power.

We finally have a platform we can all agree on. (Oh, be quiet, progressives. Read it. It has everything you want!)

We do not need sparkly new faces full of hope. We need work horses who are willing to commit to the platform and bring it to fruition.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
18. I don't get it generally.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:58 AM
Nov 2018

As Garrett said further up, I think it's one of the most abused terms used in politics.

I also think it's one of the laziest things a politician could say unless they articulate clearly what sort of change they want to implement and a clear strategy.

To use 2016 as a reference point, we saw the idea of change as "shaking things up" which, I was told by Pundits, meant the year of the outsider.

However, how did voters not figure out that only a handful of presidents haven't run on being an outsider shaking up D.C?

More Presidential Candidates ran on being some form of an "outsider" than those who did not. And I realized that people truly believed that the transformation they were looking for could only happen through one person - the President, a crazy idea but one they nonetheless believe.

Then we were told about the Obama Trump Voter who voted for the change candidate in Obama and similarly voted for the change candidate in Trump. But how does this compute? How do you vote for the guy who wished to expand civil rights and then vote for the guy who does not? Is there the belief that policy should be in flux, that for some presidential terms the law should expand protections to some groups, and in other years not? That regulatory oversight should be strong sometimes and then stripped at other times? That climate change should be a thing sometimes and also not a thing? That renewables were cool in 2008, but not in 2016?

It makes no sense unless explained by some urge to be reactionary and devotion to the idea that only one person can do something - a Hero/ine rather than collective action at several levels. To see it as collective action requires engagement with the actual ideas involved and how to accomplish them. "Change" by itself keeps the focus on the individual claiming it and how they say the thing, and their communication skills even if they maybe insincere or lack the political skills to accomplish what they claim they will implement.

As for Pelosi, her treatment is different from her predecessors. We've certainly changed our perception of what a Congressional Leader should be. From my understanding, people like Gephardt didn't have to deal with the constant questions about inspiration and being the face of the Dem party. And on the Republican side ( let's be real) few cared whether Dennis Hastert should be the face of the Republican Party either.

For years, there's been moaning about Pelosi's leadership. The Republicans tried it in 08, claiming that Obama winning would give Pelosi carte blanche to go wild. During the ACA battles, many again doubted her leadership and then were amazed how she managed to herd the cats and whip up votes, which mystified the usual talking heads - and how she managed as well to continue to win the votes for her leadership. The calls for change didn't resonate where it mattered - among her colleagues who actually work with her.

Then there's change without understanding the impact of what you want to change or how to work around a thorny issue. At the recent sit in outside Pelosi's office, the DNC's fossil fuel reversal issue was raised. Did many in the media just decide to forget that the International Brotherhood Of Electrical Workers did not want to be locked out of donating to the DNC? So also the reality: the DNC needs money and we need it to counter the KOCH engine on the other side. The influx of money for Dems made a difference, the results showed. So what's the solution? Your usual change messiah can't be bothered with such details because on the superficial level, talk of change, is easier. The taskmaster has to think "How?"

So yes, Climate Change is serious, and I have no problem with a special committee ( which Pelosi - apparently the non-change person in the matrix - agrees with) yet the narrative was petulant progressives vs a cowardly establishment when already we're seeing signs of compromise and triangulation.

Another example of change being meaningless:

Before the election, doubt about the blue wave. " Can dems really take the house? "

Dems take the house, we have a change , but now such changes don't matter because we didn't win senate.

Like Clockwork.

I realise I haven't come nearer answering your question. Because it's mystifying.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
20. Thanks.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 03:14 AM
Nov 2018

The discussion is helpful. Perhaps to people who will take the time to go over the thoughtful responses and glean some understanding of the complexities of the issue. Maybe someone will walk away thinking, "Oh, I see..." and have a better understanding of the issue before just spouting off vague and generic terms.

Or maybe I am just a Pollyanna.

betsuni

(25,442 posts)
25. "the idea that only one person can do something": Americans watch too many movies.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 04:45 AM
Nov 2018

Movies featuring superheroes, romantic comedies ending with a wedding.

Raine

(30,540 posts)
26. Change would be the opposite of status quo
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 04:55 AM
Nov 2018

when you're happy with the way things are you don't want change. Change can be good or bad but sometimes change is needed so much that even something worse can eventually lead to something better, you just have to tough it out.

Squinch

(50,934 posts)
30. You mean like voting for trump or stein to bring the revolution faster?
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 09:27 AM
Nov 2018

I'm toughing that shit out right now. No thank you. That way lie monsters.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
35. Yep... that's exactly what Sarandon said.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:04 AM
Nov 2018

It's what Susan Sarandon wanted. Just LOOK at how giddy and animated she is... she can barely contain her excitement at the horrors that await us. So much change! (So much suffering of those who are most vulnerable and who can least afford it. How fortunate for Sarandon that she has the fucking luxury of being able to ride-it-out in her tower... polishing her gilded awards and statuettes.)



FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!!

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
40. Define status quo.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:11 PM
Nov 2018

Again, nebulous words that can mean ANYTHING. Some of the status quo is good. I have had the same job for the last 5 years, after being at a job for 14. At my previous job, I loved the people I worked with, and the people I worked for. I hated the tons of paperwork, much of it repetitive, that we had to do. I had maxed out of the pay scale 5 years in and my path up the ladder was blocked by a lack of post graduate degree. So I changed and got a degree. Then the company changed in the way the employees were treated by a new administration. I missed the status quo, which saw the employees as assets of the company not liabilities. When the time was right, I left, and from the people who stayed behind, I am told it was a really good move. But you see what I did there? I identified, at least in very general terms (I could go into specifics) what I didn't like. I made personal changes to accommodate my situation, but when that was not enough, I defined a new goal and pursued it.

"Something better" is a gamble, especially if you don't have any idea of what that means and some steps on how to get there.

 

LBM20

(1,580 posts)
34. The notion of "change" and "new blood" is manifest and self-evident in CONTEXT. Think about it:
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 09:53 AM
Nov 2018

All organizations acquire a kind of stagnation over time, and you have to bring in new people, often from a new generation, with fresh perspectives, styles, approaches, and ideas. And sometimes that also means new people from other geographical areas.

When we discuss "change" we have to consider the CONTEXT, always.

Take the DNC. What a MESS under Wasserman-Schultz. Fine that Donna Brazille, an old guard person, came in for the interim. But then we needed someone new with new leadership approaches and some other changes as well. And we did that by bringing in Perez and others. Should Brazille have stayed because she was so experienced? No. We needed a CHANGE.

Other examples abound in history. In my area, we had a person as head of the local schoolboard for over 20 years. Good person. But some issues began to arise, and this person had consolidated power in that organization. Finally a movement came for change, and no one is in charge for 20 years anymore. They changed the rules. This is another example.

It is about needed organizational leadership change in CONTEXT of time and circumstances. In our House leadership, we all admire and respect Pelosi and Hoyer, and I am personally fine with them for another year or two. But they've been there a llllllllllllllong time. Time to start coaching up some new leaders for a few years down the road.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
41. That is the first time you have actually defined change.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:17 PM
Nov 2018

That is something that I can acknowledge even though I disagree that there has been stagnation in the House under Pelosi's leadership. At least that is something though. Thanks.

Like I said in other posts. Pelosi has already suggested that a path to new leadership should begin. She is incredibly smart and while you need a high sense of self to be a politician at those levels, she is also pretty humble. She knows she can't do it forever and she knows the next generation need the opportunity to lead, which is why she is looking to put progressives on the most powerful committees and reach out to the next wave of Reps to learn the intricacies of leadership in the House.

LiberalFighter

(50,825 posts)
37. Those advocating change imo mean they want to get rid of Nancy.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:17 AM
Nov 2018

The fact that new blood is in the House IS change. That will mean there will be changes within the caucus.

There will be change when committee assignments are made.

If they elect someone new as their Democratic leader making that person Speaker they may elect someone who doesn't know what they are doing and maybe someone who doesn't know how to get the most of people. And knows how to get people to work together. Being a leader requires special skills. And some people are best doing other tasks instead of being the top leader.

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