The flawed argument against impeachment

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2018, 09:59 AM - Edit history (1)

The fact that there aren't sixty seven votes in the Senate to convict Trump is of no moment. The Constitution demands a president be impeached and removed from office for 'high crimes and misdemeanors'. If Republican senators refuse to obey their constitutional obligation to remove a lawless president they will be subject to the verdict of history and retribution at the ballot box.

If Trump asked his White House Counsel to begin the process of prosecuting his political opponents, including one who is a potential witness against him in a criminal proceeding, that is obstruction of justice and an abuse of power, whether or not the White House Counsel complied.

Trump and his acolytes aren't ten feet tall. He is a president with a 42% approval rating whose party just lost thirty nine House seats, seven governors, and three hundred and eighty state legislative seats. And now that we are entering a bear market and economic slowdown his already abysmal approval rating will drop further.

The public will be with us, at least a vast majority of them will be. A feckless, mendacious, and lawless president is a dagger aimed at the heart of our republic.

Trump is the Titanic. If the GOP wants to go down with him...



ON EDIT- The Clinton impeachment is not an appropriate corollary. Clinton was a relatively popular president who was presiding over a booming economy and stock market and his lies about consensual oral sex aren't nearly as of grave a nature as siccing law enforcement on your political opponents.

[brooklynite]

1. You know who was subject to the verdict of history and retribution at the ballot box?

House Republican who brought Impeachment charges against Clinton in 19998.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. The backdrop to the Clinton impeachment was a booming economy.

The backdrop to the Clinton impeachment was a booming economy and his approval rating was 62%

https://news.gallup.com/poll/116584/presidential-approval-ratings-bill-clinton.aspx


The backdrop to the Trump impeachment will be a slowing economy and a approval rating of 42%:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/


Oh, lying about a consensual blow job isn't tantamount to siccing law enforcement on your political opponents.

[unblock]

6. surely the severity of the charges matters.

the impeachment circus against clinton was widely seen as a petty partisan stunt to tarnish the reputation of a rather popular president.

it didn't help that republicans seemed to be playing a gotcha game, searching high and low for an excuse to impeach before settling on something that most people saw as a private matter and not a crime of office.


democrats did fine when nixon resigned, and while obviously one could argue that the result being a successful removal of a president matters, i think what matters is that what nixon did was widely seen as crimes of office and he couldn't pretend he wasn't guilty.


i think democrats are wise not to seem too eager to impeach. it works better to let the evidence come out first and avoid the perception that we wanted impeachment no matter what and were searching for an excuse. hopefully, with more indictments and reports from mueller, the perception is that donnie has committed crimes of office. at that point, impeachment will be seen as appropriate and even if republicans protect him, we won't be seen abusing *our* power for a political stunt.


for now, i'm on the fence as to whether it's a net political plus or not to impeach. i think it really does depend on how mueller's activities play out. i think we need to see something a bit more damning than what we've seen so far before the public is ready to accept that he needs to be impeached. but i think it's entirely possible that mueller has the goods on him.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

3. + infinity...

I sincerely hope the good people in D.C. start to stand up for us and democracy and against the Trump Crime Family and their minions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Prior to yesterday's revelations I was against impeachment.

If the president can sic law enforcement on his political opponents he or she can sic law enforcement on you and me too.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

5. Tipped the scales for me too...nt

[vlyons]

7. I could not agree more

Trump needs to be impeached. Not right away, but after the normal process of justice. Congressional hearings and investigations. Mueller report made public. House votes for a bill of impeachment.

Let's stop for a moment of contemplation here. <=====

I think we can all agree that it is very possible to get to a bill of impeachment. Can the House vote it out? Probably. Should we go this far? Yes, for several reasons. It's the right, ethical thing to do to uphold our principles of being a nation of decent people. It would put the Senate Republicans in an unenviable position. Each senator would be forced to show the level of their venality. A vote on impeachment might be the nail in the coffin of the GOP. Let the sorry Trump era be the GOP's eternal shame, because obviously gthey learned nothing from the Nixon era, or the GWBush era.

[dalton99a]

8. Nah, we have to wait for clear examples of misbehavior

[Raven123]

9. Mueller knows a lot more than the rest of us

I would wait for his report

[Squinch]

10. Clinton was impeached for a consensual affair with an adult. It was bullshit.

Trump will be impeached for aiding a hostile foreign power in its takeover of the American electoral system.

I used yo be one of those who said impeachment without conviction was toothless. I have now come over to the other side. Impeachment is the right thing to do. Therefore we should do it regardless of what the trump cult does.

[kentuck]

11. Since Republicans suffered at the polls for impeaching Clinton...?

It follows that Democrats would suffer for impeaching Trump?

That is some weird logic, but seems to be the argument?

Twenty Republicans would have to stand up for their Party and for their country, if all Democrats voted to impeach, in order to convict in the US Senate. The same people will say that is not possible.

But is that true?

Cannot twenty minds and hearts be changed?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Clinton lied about a consensual blow job to spare himself and his family from embarrassment.

Trump tried to sick the DOJ on his political opponents, including one who is a potential witness against him in a criminal proceeding.

[Whiskeytide]

13. It has to be done appropriately. After Meuller ...

... reveals his findings and/or the house conducts investigations. It has to be very clear and irrefutable.

If we haul off and start filing impeachment proceedings for everything under the sun, the way republicans filed ACA repeal legislation, we play right into republican narratives.

Pass good, simple, people helping legislation out of the House, let republicans go on record against the proposals again and again, and investigate relentlessly. Behave like responsible adults. That’s our best strategy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I was against impeachment and for passing a lot of popular...

I was against impeachment and for passing a lot of popular legislation and making The turtle and Dirty Don kill it before I learned Trump tried to sic the DOJ on his political opponents.

[Whiskeytide]

18. I agree that is reprehensible. But make it ...

... a part of the investigative process of pulling the facade off of the orange turd. Line up charges against him -overwhelming evidence - THEN hammer his ass. Don’t get the cart in front of the horse. We have such an opportunity to re-set the narrative to something besides slinging feces back and forth across the isles of congress. Let THEM do that. Our response should always be “shut up, we’re trying to run the country here”.

We just can’t play into the narrative of partisan driven politics. That’s what they want us to do. If we file impeachment papers on day one after taking over the house, the RW machine will have a field day and drum beat it for 2 years. It’s the only chance they have in 2020. I say don’t give it to them.

But I’m afraid some house members won’t get it. I fear we will have a half dozen different impeachment articles filed in January. The DC emergency room will be treating the Democratic Party for a bullet wound to our lower extremity. We’ll see, I suppose.

[Raven123]

15. Well said

[MineralMan]

16. Impeachment without any expectation of

removal by the Senate is a risky move. There is really no way to predict the effects of a failed impeachment process. We simply don't have enough experience with it to know what would happen.

In 2020, we will be in an excellent position to elect a Democratic President and a majority in the Senate, as well as increasing our House majority.

I think an impeachment at this time would be a serious mistake. Perhaps once the Mueller investigation is over, if it shows what it's likely to, consideration of impeachment might be a good thing. However, the best we could expect is a Nixon-like resignation. The Senate will NOT remove Trump.

[kentuck]

17. Democrats will have to wait on the report to decide.

If it is indefensible, they would have no choice, in my opinion.

They would need a PR campaign of historical stature in order to make Trump too poisonous to support. Anybody that would defend him should have to pay a huge political price. A "Nixon-like" resignation would be alright with most people, in my opinion.

But, the grounds should be laid before the American people before they jump into any impeachment hearings, imo.