Should we pay Reparations for Slavery?

[Soph0571]

Western wealth is built on slavery. Of that there can be no doubt. Enslavement as happened to African people and those of African descent is something different and unparalleled in human history. Those who seek reparations talk about the ongoing effects of slavery within certain communities. That inter-generational transmission of trauma has a significant effect still today – the descendants of the enslaved have described this as a lack of connection, a lack of identity, a lack of nationhood, a lack of feeling rooted, or being treated as a minority community when in reality they are from global majority populations. It is about having second class status and citizenship wherever the enslaved descendants have been located as a result of the dispersal and de-population that happened originally in Africa.

Slavery and genocide have impacted, not only the historical populations that were kidnapped from Africa, but also the descendants of the enslaved today. It is not only about trauma and multi-generational oppression but also about the unjust enrichment to nations due to slavery, coupled with unjust impoverishment which has been passed on throughout the generations of the enslaved descendants.
A big part of the legacy of slavery is surely this high level of inequality that can be seen today between the descendants of the enslavers and the descendants of the enslaved.

The empowerment and enrichment of the US and the UK, to name 2 nations, came from enslavement, colonialism and ill-gotten gains. Should we not, if we want to be an equal and fair society, balance the books?

[JonLP24]

1. Yes

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. Yep.

[hlthe2b]

3. Should we? Yes

Can we? I'm not certain, given what is likely coming economically after even 4 years of Trump.

But, there is not doubt the moral answer is YES>

There are a lot of things we can do, must do, as a START, however, including putting a stop to the current brand of "Jim Crowe" voter repression and obstruction, ensuring the two decades long (or more) attempts to dismantle desegregation in public schools and affirmative action in our universities and colleges is halted, criminal justice reform, and strict enforcement of hate crimes laws, including incitement. That would be a "start".

[brooklynite]

4. Let us know when you have the details worked out...

Does any African American get a share, or do they have to document an enslaved relative?

What about Caribbean African Americans enslaved by the British?

Do non-African Americans have to contribute to the reparations fund if they came to the US after the 14th Amendment was passed?

Is there a supplementary payment by southerners who lived with Jim Crow laws after slavery was abolished?

[Soph0571]

6. I have just come back from Bermuda

I was thinking about the Caribbean nations as I wrote this...

Bermuda is rich but many former colonies are not so fortunate

Tate and Lyle and Lloyds of London could put their hands in their heavily lined pockets to relieve poverty in the nations in which they made their fortunes

[shanny]

55. Like the details are more important

than the concept.

[brooklynite]

89. Depends on whether the concept is meaningless symbolism...

[shanny]

156. A concept is not a symbol

It is an idea, by definition not meaningless. An action can be meaningless, like a token gesture.

Dismissing an idea because the parameters and mechanics of it haven't been spelled out yet is like...not declaring independence because you don't know yet what form your new government will take.

Btw, I bet there are any number of people, including scholars, who have devoted a lot of time and effort to answering your questions. Why not do some research and "ask" them, if you really want an answer.

[fescuerescue]

139. But how would one do such a thing without the details?

The details are what matter. The details is what puts money into the hands of those who deserve it.

Without the details and execution, it's a fairy tail.

[Eliot Rosewater]

61. So since there would be details as with every other resolution and issue on earth, you ignore it?

You dont have to answer, it is rhetorical SIGH

[whathehell]

63. We will.

and given that your questions, especially the first two, are so eaily answered, I'd guess it's not at all the impossible conumdrum you and some others imagine.it to be.

[brush]

66. Sigh! I expected nothing less from you.

[brooklynite]

92. Thank you!

I always like when reality is appreciated.

[brush]

93. You're predictable.

[brooklynite]

97. So is reality

[Cernunnos_x]

147. So true. Glad to see some common sense around here.

[USALiberal]

5. No way to determine who gets paid and who does not......

How about we just face the fact that minority communities need more resources and better schools and spend the money on those things.

[smirkymonkey]

13. I agree there. Greater investment and shifting resources into minority communities.

I don't really see another way to work it out fairly. Scholarships, work programs, housing grants, etc. Things like that would work better than an actual monetary payout.

[IphengeniaBlumgarten]

14. Yes, this seems to be the only feasible way.

Trying to tie payments to a known slave ancestor or some percentage of African DNA is not practical.

[area51]

48. +1 n/t

[brush]

70. See post 68.

[whathehell]

67. That's the form Reparations could take..

Giving to African American institutions -- Colleges, foundations, neighborhood groups and such.

[brush]

68. Ever heard of the Dawes Rolls, or even 23 and Me?

Of course there's a way to determine who.

I do agree with your idea of putting more resources into AA communities—not checks cut to individuals but job training programs, small business grants, college scholarships, upgrading of inner city schools, facilities, utilities (see Flint, MI) and much better training of LEOs who patrol our communities to stop all the killings of innocent, unarmed people by police.

[Eliot Rosewater]

83. And when is that gonna happen?

[JustAnotherGen]

150. If you focus on 1932 - 1968 you can

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211470485#post149I

And there's a way to do it where it doesn't require white people to pay anything.

It just gives black people the same advantage of skin color giving the masses the OPPORTUNITY to build wealth.

And you limit the deduction to the individual to 38 years. My oldest niece and nephew are both 25. The youngest is 9. Allow her dad to put in the 5% to a college savings fund for 10 years then allow her to put in for the deduction from age 18 to 44.

It has its own sunset timeline as my brother was born in 1971. So her children and grandchildren would not be eligible.

It's so easy if we focus on the last atrocity of slavery - the creation of ghettos and rural poverty as a deliberate act to keep black folks out of the New Deal.

LBJ offered us a Great Society - let's make it greater and continue the legacy.

[brush]

161. You're getting there. No one is advocating individual checks being cut...

college funding, community development (see Flint, MI), small business grants, job training, much better training for LEOs to stop the continual killings of unarmed black men by cops—those are things that can be done to help make up for the hundreds of years of dawn-to-dusk, legally sanctioned, stolen labor during enslavement.

[Laffy Kat]

7. Yes, and I think we eventually will...

Except it won't be in my lifetime.

[Soph0571]

8. When the English abolished slavery

They paid over 1 billion in today's money to the owners of slaves for their inconvenience. Not a penny to the slaves themselves....

[Pope George Ringo II]

102. To be fair, the Royal Navy did do some nice things for slaves after that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

The Royal Navy established the West Africa Squadron at substantial expense in 1808 after Parliament passed the Slave Trade Act of 1807. The squadron's task was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the coast of West Africa.[1] With a home base at Portsmouth,[2] it began with two small ships, the 32-gun fifth-rate frigate HMS Solebay and the Cruizer-class brig-sloop HMS Derwent. At the height of its operations, the squadron employed a sixth of the Royal Navy fleet and marines. In 1819 the Royal Navy established a West Coast of Africa Station and the West Africa Squadron became known as the (Preventative Squadron) [3] it remained an independent command until 1856 and then again 1866 to 1867.

Between 1808 and 1860 the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans

[Iggo]

9. Yes. (eom)

[metroins]

10. No

Just work for a better future for all people.

[shanny]

11. Yes.

Truth and Reconciliation thing would be good too, and probably necessary first.

[Takket]

12. No........

It is on the right side of morality and the wrong size of everything else..... including...

Where do we get the money for this? There were 37 million African Americans in the US in the 2010 census. Let's assume 20 million of them are actually descended from slaves. What is a fair payment? $1000? That will cost $20 billion. Not that hard. a million dollars? That will cost 20 trillion. No chance in hell a payment that large can be supported by the Federal budget.

Politics: Sorry to say but you are going to have a hard time of even convince all but the most progressive Democrats to support meaningful reparations funding. It is VERY unpopular with the electorate and would lead to a massive red wave if it would pass, and the GOP's first order of business would be to stomp out the payments before they are made. Politically there is no path to victory for reparationists.

Genetics: Like others have mentioned, who gets paid? Do we need to DNA test the entire country to see who has slave blood in them? What about whites who have ancestors who were slaves? Are they entitled to anything? What about blacks that are already rich? Do LeBron James or Barak Obama deserve a payment?

I think most Democrats would agree that what really needs to be done is for the Federal Government to start working again for the poor and middle class and lifting up the quality of life for everyone being trampled on by drumpf. Stop corporate and 1% welfare, make healthcare and education affordable or FREE, pass equal pay for equal work laws, and now you have STARTED the process of reparation, and once we have good paying jobs for everyone and a solid tax base, and the rich paying their fair share, I can envision a time where we actually turn around the deficit and THEN we can talk reparations. (Bad news: after all the damage drumpf has done, on top of what bush did to the Clinton surplus, that is probably at least a generation away).

[brush]

71. See post 68.

[Garrett78]

15. The United Nations says we should, and I agree. Reparations can take many forms.

[Autumn]

16. How do you determine who gets paid? What about Native Americans? No. It's better to

invest in the future of all our children.

[brush]

72. See post 68. And include Native Americans,

[Autumn]

75. So we know who? No I'm still against it. Instead of paying the individuals for what their

ancestors went though in their past we should invest in the future of all children.

[brush]

79. Investing in the black community with college scholarships, small business grants...

and the like would be a bargain considering the hundreds of years enslaved people worked from dawn to duck without getting paid.

Even if all that STOLEN LABOR was calculated at just minimum wage level, the principle of compounding where money doubles every seven years would take it past the amount in the US Treasury so college scholarships, small business grants, better police training so so many unarmed black men don't keep getting killed by cops would be a small price to pay.

Whites need to try to see this outside of their privileged comfort zones. The country did monstrous injustice to African Americans, Native Americans and other POCs and reparations, not individual payments, would go a long way in healing the wound that still exists and help the country from continuing to fight the Civil War.

And no one would pay themselves. Cutting the military budget by 5% for a year of two would take care of it.

[Autumn]

84. I'm a Latina so I don't see this from a privileged comfort zone. Yes our country

did monstrous injustices to African Americans, Native Americans, women, Japanese and other POCs. I still think we concentrate on making a better future for all.
We should work on doing all those thing with our tax dollars instead of paying welfare to corporations, the wealthy and endless wars.

[brush]

88. Latino/a Americans as well should be included. Your suggestion to concentrate...

on making a better future for all is well meaning IMO but will never make up for centuries of stolen labor.

After the Emancipation Proclamation African Americans were free from enslavement but also free of any wealth that their centuries of labor should have given them to past down what they could to kids and grand kids. Ever wonder why household wealth statistics always show white families have ten, twenty, thirty or more times in wealth than AA families.

And btw, Japanese families were paid reparations for WWll internment, as were Jewish families by Germany.

What's up, everyone deserves it but African Americans?

[brush]

80. Did you not read I said no checks cut to individuals?

[fescuerescue]

141. That's a great suggestion

But there are many many different opinions on that.

[johnp3907]

17. Yes.

Forgiving the debt of African nations would be a start.

[MichMan]

29. Didn't many of those African nations facilitate the slave trade ?

[cwydro]

34. Yes indeed.

Very few clean hands regarding the slave trade.

[SCantiGOP]

18. Think this through

It would be a huge transfer of wealth to the states of the old Confederacy. Do you really think taxes from current residents of New England and California should be diverted to Mississippi and Alabama?
Does Barack Obama get a share (or half a share) even though his African relatives were not slaves and even though he is a millionaire?

Others in this thread have already noted that the best way to redress this horrible stain on our past is to build a truly inclusive and fair future for all Americans.

[Soph0571]

21. I guess identity politics is not at the heart of how you think?

Others in this thread have already noted that the best way to redress this horrible stain on our past is to build a truly inclusive and fair future for all Americans.

How?

[brush]

73. See post 68.

[JustAnotherGen]

152. Yes - Obama would

He was black on the 1970 census.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211470485#post149

Details on that post.

In my case - a five percent deduction would transfer that wealth to NJ. My sister - the same. My brother - NY.

Our dad was a tail end Great Migrationer. He literally couldn't vote in the 1964 election in Alabama while home on leave with a purple heart at 23. It was still dangerous to vote and his father forbid his *Hero* from going to the polls with the rest of the guys in the family. His mother voted for the first time in 1968 at almost 70 years of age.

It's fair since they took all of our property tax money and federal money and gave it to racists - so let the descendants keep a little more for the Red Line era.

You pay nothing - I get 5% for 36 years. Sunsets when I'm in my 80's or die.

It's fair.

[lunatica]

19. Yes

[Drahthaardogs]

20. No. I just posted above about the corruption of US Steel

My grandfather worked for script. Two of his brothers and father were killed in the mine. They were brought over from Italy with lies and made indentured servents.

Do I get reparations too?

[Soph0571]

22. Indentured servitude and slavery are two very distinct things

One was nasty the other was a decimation of the fastest. the youngest and the brightest from a continent that has been disadvantaged by this raid over centuries, and will be disadvantaged for decades to come. You do not get reparations cause your family made bad choices. Trey had a choice. Slaves did not.

[Drahthaardogs]

35. Different yes, but... Not THAT different. Free labor and when

They fought back, they were killed ( See Ludlow Massacre).


This is my history and my people were not even here when slavery existed and I and mine received no benefit from it. Why should I pay?

[Soph0571]

36. But you receive benefit every single day...

...you live in the richest nation on the planet, a nation built on the blood seat and tears of slaves

[Drahthaardogs]

39. So do the descendents of slaves, native Americans, and Mexican immigrants

You want people to pay? Track down the slave owners' descendents and go for it.

My people were lynched, villified, had our culture and language stolen, and indentured in the mines, railroads, and steel Mills. We were interred during WWII. This country was built on their backs too.

[Soph0571]

40. I think they may argue otherwise

How exactly was your language and culture stolen?

[Drahthaardogs]

41. I suggest you watch Pane Amaro to see

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:08 PM - Edit history (1)

What the "whites" did to Italian immigrants. The largest mass lynching in America victims were Sicilian immigrants. Theodore Roosevelt called it "a good thing".

We were not considered white until 1965. Laws were passed to outlaw our immigration.

Why don't you know these things about other ethnic groups? How can your opinion be informed?

[cwydro]

44. I wish you good luck with this.

Some people don’t want to learn.

[Drahthaardogs]

46. Most don't even know what is considered a lynching

They think it only involves hanging, and don't realize it means any vigilante group killing.

I argued with a DU'er who desperately tried to prove that the largest mass lynching could not have been peratrated against Sicilian immigrants and started citing riots, etc. Even when I provided the evidence and the damned MOVIE, they kept denying.

It is also okay on DU to accuse anyone with a vowel after their name of being mafioso. It sickebs me.

[cwydro]

90. Many here can think only in the direction of the narrative.

Sad.

[JustAnotherGen]

153. My husband is an Italian immigrant

In my model - he doesn't get the five percent - but I do.

Think tax deduction. Not payout.

And - not only was America prejudiced against Sicilians - so are Italians.

He's Calabrese and will tell you and a descendent of Northern Italians in America he's the real unsullied by Northern Europeans Italian.

[violetpastille]

60. This is a long article, but so good

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

And the tldr; Is, let's talk about it. Let's open the discussion.

My folks were here and not here. Mexico and Ireland. The Mexican side would have held slaves gladly if that were on offer.

The Irish side arrived late to the party and kicked the ladder over as soon as they attained "whiteness". Hannity and O'Reilly wise.

In any case I'm white enough for most white purposes. Maybe not "suburban" looking enough to sell dog vitamins on TV, but I have enjoyed white privilege. Stolen privilege. And I cannot be free until we are all free. I would give away my privilege, but I can't.

Reparations can help us as a nation to go forward and stop fighting the Civil War.

It would help ALL Americans.

[MountCleaners]

117. Yes, people don't realize how many things would be better

Where I live, many of the white people roll up and close their businesses and move once people of color start to move into an area. Fact is, those white people were able to open those small businesses because of generational wealth and discrimination. It always leaves me aghast when I meet white small business owners and they complain of their lot, how sad it is they are closing when their grandfather or great-grandfather started the business. Give me a break. POC didn't have that wealth or those opportunities when your grandfather started out. You had a huge head start.

Anyway, what I meant to say is that reparations would benefit everyone living in these communities, it would revitalize them as dollars would come back INTO THE COMMUNITY instead of leaving. It would be a fantastic revitalization of many places.

And Donald Trump goes on and on about "infrastructure" and "making America great again", and his followers bitch about what has happened to many towns and how the downtowns aren't there anymore - all of this nostalgia for a time when the USA wasn't truly "great" anyway, but they oppose reparations, which would spur a revival of many communities, and Trump would no longer have nothing to bitch about.

[brush]

76. Who's asking you to pay anything? Reducing the military budget by 5%...

could go a long way in taking care of it.

[Drahthaardogs]

86. That doesn't make any sense.

If it comes from tax dollars....

Your logic is skewed

[brush]

91. And so is your privilege. It's showing. Japanese families were paid...

reparations for WWll internment, so were Jewish families paid by Germany for what they endured.

What's up, everyone deserves it but African Americans?

[Drahthaardogs]

95. We were not.

And I personally find any talk of reparations for ancestors of slaves when we have living native Americans still on reservations insanity.

We stole their land AND committed genocide to their people. They should be first in line for ANYTHING!

[brush]

96. You are so warped in your thinking it's pathetic. Our labor was stolen...

for hundred of years—dawn to dusk work without compensation for hundreds of years.

Got that? Is your comprehension level high enough to understand that?

And of course Native Americans should be included.

[Drahthaardogs]

98. That's fine,

But it's NOT my history. My people were not here. I'm sorry this happened, but again, go collect from the slave owners' ancestors

[brush]

103. It's not about your history, and was legal then, government sanctioned...

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2018, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

so it's up to the gov. to make it right.

[MichMan]

100. Reperations to Japanese and Jewish people were to those that were actually interned

Not to everybody with Asian ancestry or that ever attended a Synagogue.

But of course you know that the comparison isn't really the same.

[brush]

106. Ever heard of the Dawes Rolls, or 23 and Me for that matter?

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Descendants of the enslaved can be determined.

Or are you saying hundreds of years of enslavement and stolen labor and decades of Jim Crow and segregation that followed and the legacies of those cruelties that still affect many African Americans should be just swept under the rug and forgotten?

[fescuerescue]

142. Dawes rolls isn't a great example

There are many, many families not represented that should be.

When the Dawes rolls were implemented, my didn't trust that it wouldn't be used against them, so thousands of legitimate native americans were left off, both and intentionally and by mistake.

23/Me/DNA testing as a long way to go but it may get there. As it is now, there is alot that it cannot identify (see the Elizabeth Warren testing for example)

[brush]

143. So you're saying in another way it just can't be done?

With much improved research tech of course it can be determined who are descendants.

[fescuerescue]

145. I'm saying the Dawes Rolls is bad example

But yes I think it could be done.

But I doubt that we could ever agree on the criteria and there would be massive turmoil over those disagreements.

This all makes for interesting conversation, but it'll never go beyond that.

[brush]

146. The Dawes rolls was used as an example, granted, an imperfect one...

from times past, also to show that an attempt at documentation has been done before.

It could be done much better now. What disappoints me is that so many immediately react so negatively to something that so obviously should be and could be done.

The technology is there to do it. We'll see if something develops. No one is talking about cutting individual checks but college education funding, small business grants, job training, community develppment (desperately needed in Flint, MI), things like that.

[JustAnotherGen]

151. Nothing

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211470485#post149I

I should just have to pay less. You shouldn't pay a cent.

Just give me a 5% tax break for 36 years.

Details for why/how on that post.

I do not believe you should have to pay more. I just believe with a built in "Sunset" on the tax break and limiting to four census rolls in the 20th century it's possible.

[brush]

74. See post 68.

[Kaleva]

23. Native Americans ought to be first in line. Without their stolen land, there'd be no western wealth.

"The US Is Worth $23 Trillion"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/04/23/fun-number-the-us-is-worth-23-trillion-or-why-a-land-value-tax-wont-work/#499703f42bba

[Drahthaardogs]

42. Yep. We all live on stolen land

And they suffered a genocide at the behest of our government.

[brush]

78. So what'ts up? You're in favor of reparations for Native Americans but not African Americans?

[JustAnotherGen]

155. My father was a direct descendant of a Seminole Slave

She was black on the 1870 census - and Roosevelt captured her story as part of a Great Works project.

Her grandchildren and great grandchildren were subjected to Jim Crow in Alabama.

And her hate for white people - North and South is legend in our family.

She would have hated you.

[cwydro]

43. Yep.

Spot on.

[Kaleva]

47. It's rather racist to exclude Native Americans in any discussion about Reparations.

[MountCleaners]

24. Yes.

A long time ago, I read Randall Robinson's book The Debt. I recommend it to anyone interested in this issue.

Randall Robinson has many videos and articles online.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4352483/randall-robinson-reparations

This article, by Chuck Collins, who deems himself "one of the 1%" in terms of wealth, points out how whites have benefited from their own "Affirmative Action":

In the case of racial economic divisions, the full horror of dispossession remains difficult to grasp. In 1965, a century after the formal end of slavery, African-Americans were still largely excluded from programs that helped build middle-class wealth. In the decades following World War II, our nation made unprecedented public investments to subsidize debt-free college education and low-cost mortgages. But these wealth-building measures benefited millions of mostly white households.

It is true, of course, that many people have not shared in the economic gains equally, thanks to four decades of hyper-inequality. Today, the wealthiest 100 billionaires in the US have as much wealth as the entire African-American population combined. For this reason, I propose two concrete mechanisms to fund a national Reparations Trust Fund. The first is a graduated tax on wealth and inherited wealth. Households with wealth in excess of $5 million would pay a 1% tax, but rates would climb for billionaire households.

Secondly, I propose that the fund be capitalized in part by hefty penalties on wealthy individuals and corporations that attempt to move their funds “off-shore” or into complicated trusts to avoid taxation and accountability. There would also be stiff penalties assessed on wealth managers who aid and abet these wealth escapes by creating trusts and off-shore subsidies for the sole purposes of tax dodging.

He goes on to list the forms reparations may take. Sounds great to me, and it would signal that the US is ready to move forward and truly invest in ALL of its people.

The commission could investigate many different forms of reparations. In his book published, The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks, Randall Robinson talks about a wide range of ways that reparations could be used, including the funding of cultural institutions, community initiatives, direct cash grants, and targeted wealth-building programs.

https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-reparations-could-actually-look-like-in-america/

[dameatball]

126. This makes sense.

[unitedwethrive]

25. It is a much better investment in our society than tax cuts for corporations

And would probably cut down on other social service spending in the long run.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. Nope!

We should pay it for Jim Crow.

[brush]

107. Jim Crow as well as hundreds of years of stolen labor.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. And it's easy to do it

For the period of 1932 to 1970 ( 40, 50, 60, 70) census of you or your ancestor were on the Census as Negro/Black - you get a 5 % tax break for 36 Years. That's the time of Red Line Laws - which allowed non blacks to accumulate wealth.

They always have a lame added excuse about well how do we know who was a slave and who wasnt?

Our Grandparents, parents, older siblings, and older cousins were all accounted for in those census records. If a few immigrants from Africa or the Carribean get through then so be it. They were harmed by the resulting stain of slavery too.were

Let's take the 5% to the next level. Just as there are college savings accounts create a class/type of savings called Red Equalization. If you put your 5% into that or a college savings, then the next year you get 7%.

It's the easiest way to build wealth and does not require white folks to pay anything. Just allows those of us who would fit the criteria to keep more.

[brush]

160. Good idea. It would also blunt the notion of those thinking anyone is...

Last edited Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

advocating for checks to be cut to any and everyone claiming to be a descendant of an enslaved person.

[JustAnotherGen]

163. Exactly

I DO descend from that. The REAL stain - is the indignity that occurred in my Father's Life Time. In his life - a war hero, the third hand picked Green Beret. They can do right by him.

WE can do right by him - for the indignity of having more to fear from white guys with rebel flags in his hometown than the effing Viet Cong.

[violetpastille]

27. Yes.

[Jake Stern]

28. What happens when a blonde haired, blue eyed white man

shows up with a copy of his Ancestry DNA or 23 and Me results that state he's 10% Sub-Saharan African?

He may very well be descended from a slave or someone who suffered under Jim Crow.

Does he get reparations?

[JCMach1]

30. No, not at all... history is soaked with blood and culpability

Should I seek reparations for the genocide perpetrated on my Native American ancestors?
Should seek reparations from England for burning ancestors at the stake for religious reasons?

We need to focus as a country on how slavery affects people here in the present and apply the remedies there...

Amelioration, not reparation...

[Raine]

99. Exactly

Last edited Mon Nov 26, 2018, 04:08 AM - Edit history (1)

the Chinese and other groups were treated badly too, Japanese had their land taken. History is full of injustice and not just in the US.

[LAS14]

110. You stated my opinion better than I could. nt

[elocs]

31. Certainly, as long as we are ready to deal with

what the Law of Unintended Consequences will heap on our heads.

But since it is never going to happen, what difference does it make?

[LeftInTX]

32. We already tried during reconstruction

It's a good idea, but we tried. However, racists in congress destroyed it. They made new laws restricting black people.

All we can do is move forward...

[malchickiwick]

33. Would descendants of European serfs also have a claim??

After all, the serfs existed much as chattel slaves in the antebellum South, creating massive amounts of wealth and infrastructure to enrich the top 5ish percent.

In fact, the enslaved have ALWAYS done the heavy lifting needed for civilization to exist, beginning way back when the first mud cities arose in Mesopotamia. Every civilization in the history of the world has benefitted from a system of enforced labor. (We still do today, by the way; the enslaved produce everything from the clothes we buy to the electronic devices without which we cannot live.)

The fact is, 99 percent of everyone alive today has ancestors who were enslaved somewhere at some point in history.

Truth and reconciliation? -- YES
Redistribution of wealth to assist those still affected by American chattel slavery? --YES
Cash reparations for anyone who can show that an ancestor was enslaved? -- NO

[Soph0571]

37. IMO comparison between slaves and serfs is a canard

[cyclonefence]

45. It's too late, unfortunately

Fucking John Wilkes Booth saw to that.

[VOX]

111. Precisely. Reconstruction would have been entirely different with Lincoln. n/t

[Xolodno]

112. Actually....

...Lincoln wanted to deport the slaves back to Africa. And Booth certainly made sure that didn't happen. But also the former slave owners didn't want them deported either. They may have had to pay the slaves, but then they started charging them room and board and got them into debt to the point where they couldn't leave.

[Downtown Hound]

49. Who do you pay? That's the main problem with this

Is it anybody who has even the tiniest amount of slave ancestry in their DNA? That could get messy.

In my opinion, a better alternative is to right the wrongs of slavery by taxing the people who continue to promote it to this very day: the super rich. Then take that money and build new schools, infrastructure, affordable housing, job training, education, and provide livable wages. Create an educated and financially secure population for all people regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation, or religious preference. That is how you right the wrongs of slavery.

Call it reparations or call it public investment, the end result is the same.

[Adrahil]

50. Lots and lots of problems with this...

1) who is eligible?
2) how is eligibility proven?
3) whay is paid?
4) how much is paid?
5)how is it paid?
6) where does the money come from?

[Eliot Rosewater]

62. WE will work it out, solve those questions, and then it is time to pay

I bet if things were in reverse this would get a whole lot more attention.

[Adrahil]

64. I'll wait to see the plan...

But I don’t see this as a viable option at this point.

[Kaleva]

81. Are Native Americans included in this plan?

[Eliot Rosewater]

82. And Japanese Americans and Chinese Americans

[Kaleva]

94. True

[VOX]

124. Some Japanese Americans received compensation in 1988 for WWII incarceration.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/09/210138278/japanese-internment-redress
<snip>
In 1988, President Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act to compensate more than 100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated in internment camps during World War II. The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim. The law won congressional approval only after a decade-long campaign by the Japanese-American community.
<snip>

[MichMan]

125. Those who were actually incarcerated were the ones compensated

[VOX]

138. True, and the claimants were easily identifiable. Yet, whenever the issue of reparations...

...for slavery arises, the compensation of incarcerated Japanese Americans invariably comes up, both in "for" arguments (precedent) and "against" arguments (affected individuals were known, etc.)

[Kaleva]

140. I always wonder why Native Americans are not included in this discussion.

There'd be no western wealth to speak of if not for their stolen lands.

[brooklynite]

104. How long has this been under discussion?

I'd think if it was solvable, someone would have done it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

113. OMG, do HEAR what you just said

If it was solvable a non POC government for most of over 200 years would have solved it?...half or more at any given time overt racists

Of course it can NEVER be solved as long as we have so many filthy fucking racist bigot scum, like the entire political party GASSING children at the border RIGHT NOW


Anyone bothering to make a distinction about who is doing the gassing

SIGH SIGH SIGH

there is NO FUCKING way IN HELL the Mexican govt gasses those women and children if their rightwing prez wasnt working with rump and was his request they do so

OF COURSE

those are the FUCKING FACTS and now I am not talking to brooklynite

[brooklynite]

116. Tell us what the Obama Administration did?

Answer: nothing. Because outside of a handful of activists, nobody feels this is a necessary action.

African Americans by the tens of thousands marched protested and lobbied for the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. No such advocacy for reparations exists.

[cwydro]

119. Thank you.

I doubt we’ll hear any more from that poster on this.

[Eliot Rosewater]

121. I see, like healthcare he was supposed to fix what 200 years of non POC prez could

and this too?

Wow...tall order, he was one of the 3 greatest ever but nobody is that good.
Not without the help of everybody, EVERYBODY

[brooklynite]

127. So it was impossible for him to advocate for them if he believed they were necessary?

[Eliot Rosewater]

129. I thought you were the insider, you knew so much about politics, surely if you do you realize

politicians NEVER go too far out on a limb for something if they know they dont have the support.

right?

Just say right and then admit your question to me is just snark.

IF there was a will by the RACIST SCUM of this country to do the right thing, of course he would advocate for it. But as we all know only liberals advocating for something makes it near impossible.

Still does not mean we dont try and DO THE RIGHT THING

[brooklynite]

133. Bernie Sanders goes out on a limb all the time...

...and he doesn't advocate for reparations. No major political figure (African American or otherwise) advocates for reparations.

[Eliot Rosewater]

134. and you and I both know why, in this very racist country, mostly from the right

it would be political suicide for any POC to do so.

You know that, why you keep arguing with me I dont understand.

either it is the right thing to do or it isnt.

[cwydro]

122. Apparently, it's the Mexicans doing that.

Doesn’t make it any better, but let’s keep facts straight.

[George II]

136. No it isn't. Read the on scene reports:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/migrants-tear-gassed-as-they-march-towards-us-border-in-bid-for-asylum-37564233.html

"Pictures and video are emerging online of migrants running from tear gas being thrown by the US border patrol near the fence."

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/migrants-enveloped-in-tear-gas-after-heading-toward-us

"Honduran migrant Ana Zuniga, 23, said she saw migrants open a small hole in concertina wire at a gap on the Mexican side of a levee, at which point U.S. agents fired tear gas at them."

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/25/migrants-tear-gas-mexico-border-1014684

"An Associated Press reporter saw U.S. agents shoot several rounds of tear gas"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/migrants-march-toward-us-border-several-hundred-try-to-breach-crossing/ar-BBQ4onJ

US agents fire tear gas as some migrants try to breach fence

Want to see some more?

[Eliot Rosewater]

162. anytime I see someone go OUT OF THEIR Way to post something that can easily be construed as

DEFENDING rump I lose my shit

[George II]

137. More:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211472123

[doc03]

51. No nt

[JonLP24]

52. Well we haven't done that great job of looking forward or a better future

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

53. Damn straight!!

[Blue_true]

54. I would prefer a vigorous attack on job, housing, services discrimination.

That would be more valuable to decendants of slaves than reparations.

Active discrimination and bosses and companies looking the other way drains billions per year from the economy. People that are caught discriminating should be fired and their actions should be available to potential employers when they apply for jobs. Companies that look the other way when discrimstion is happening within them should be fined hundreds of millions and any executive with knowledge of the discrimination left open to lawsuits from the victims. Only when those that discriminate know that they will pay a severe price will the activity stop.

Social media is making great strides in outing racists and discriminators, and many of those people are being fired when outed.

[LeftInTX]

148. This

[aikoaiko]

56. I think there are things we can do in the name of reparations.

Like special college grants.
Like special small business grants and loans.
Like special home loans.

Identifying who should and shouldn't receive these benefits is a tricky issue though.

[randr]

57. After we pay Native Americans

For their land

[Luciferous]

59. +1000

[Luciferous]

58. No

[whathehell]

65. Yes.

It was, in effect, done tor Native Americans, why not African Americans with tjeir long history of enslavement and discrimination ? It's only fair, in my opinion.

[marlakay]

69. It would be hard to figure out

But they definitely deserve something. How about free college for African Americans that qualify to get in. And free daycare for any woman that has kids and wants to go to college.

And anyone that is in jail for a longer time unfairly let them out sooner with job training.

I feel like they have been put in jail unfairly causing problems in the family for generations.

[flibbitygiblets]

77. Yes, in the form of the very best education and job training in impoverished areas of this country

It's really the only way

[JI7]

85. not just for slavery. the reason for reparations would have more to do with what happened

after slavery. the discrimination and other shit that c0ontinues even now.

things like housing discrimination which leads to wealth gaps among different groups.

[wasupaloopa]

87. Your premises are not wholly correct. Not all western wealth was built on slavery.

You need to study history of western people before you make broad statements like that.

[Raine]

101. No nt

[LiberalFighter]

105. I would rather see voter suppression outlawed.

Discrimination laws enforced.
Equal treatment of people enforced.
Confederate flags to be considered anti-American.
All Confederate memorials removed from public places.

[Historic NY]

108. What 40 acres and a mule...wasn't that the supposed deal originally

[MichMan]

109. It was floated as a policy by General William Tecumseh Sherman in 1865

As far as I can find out, it was never proposed in any official capacity by the US Government

[Xolodno]

115. That had problems written all over it.

Where do you get the 40 acres? Confiscate it from the Plantation owners? Pretty sure even a pro Union Supreme Court would shoot that down.

And some acreage is more prosperous than others...or just barely marginal. So one former slave does well...another...not so much.

[MuseRider]

114. Absolutely.

I have not read the arguments above yet because it will not change my mind but I will read them.

Without slavery we would be nothing. There is still slavery as long as people are not treated equally. You could say this for any immigrant, whether here by force or desire and women too but for those who were forcibly brought here, bought and sold and used the way they were there is not a doubt in my mind that we owe them much. It will never be able to repay what happened but if it helps at all in this time then yes.

[LuckyCharms]

118. Yes. In some manner. In some form. n/t

[Tarc]

120. No

We're not giving money out for something that happened 150+ years ago.

Move on, we have actual important issues on this plate.

[ismnotwasm]

123. Yes but

There’s is a huge problem as revealed in this thread.

[JI7]

144. yup

and the problem is not identifying who should get it .

[mucifer]

128. yes

[Mike Nelson]

130. The best Reparations...

… would be to treat people as equal... stop trying to prevent people from voting... stop shooting people because of their color... let people have the same access to jobs, housing, education... just treat everyone with respect.

[VOX]

131. YES. Please read Ta-Nehisi Coates' 2014 "The Atlantic" article, "The Case for Reparations." (link)

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

There's also an audio version of the article at the link.

[Xolodno]

132. No. It would be a cluster fuck of epic proportions.

Where do you draw the line on what percentage of DNA?

What is a "just" payment?

What happens when some don't think its enough and sue?

Can we afford it?

How many more minorities do we have to pay?

What about future generations? Is it fair one generation gets a payment, squanders it and the rest get no benefit? Which leads me to...

Do we keep paying every descendant going forward?

What if your family immigrated after slavery, do they have to their taxes go into this?

Whose going to pay for all those DNA tests?

Can you imagine the TV commercials? Bring in your reparation check to Bobs TV, Used Car Lot, etc. and you'll get an extra 10% off!

I could go on on the mess this would create.

But the better idea would be to invest into minority communities, with community public banks, cheap small business loans, better schools, health care, etc. You know, the things Republicans are against.

[roamer65]

135. What are we gonna pay them with?

This country is technically insolvent.

[rampartc]

154. no. how are reparations fair to the descendants of the many

yankees lost in the effort to free the slaves, and to those who survived that conflict?

how are reparations fair to the descendants of the millions of immigrants who came to the usa after the slaves were freed?

reparation of a sort was possible during reconstruction, when the plantations could have been broken into 40 acre tracts and when war surplus mules were plentiful.

the amortized value of 40 acres and a mule is now many millions of dollars, multiplied by 30 million african americans, that is enough money to pay for several f-35s and a full bailout of wall st, includung bonuses.

slavery ended 150 years ago. it was a tragic and shameful chapter in history but face it : reparations are never going to happen. lets find a way for all of us to move forward into a better world.

[jcmaine72]

157. Yes! Expanding Affirmative Action, providing free health care and education from K through college

for African-Americans (and Indigenous peoples of America as well) would be a nice start (Others must be compensated as well). White males in particular need to understand and accept that they have benefited immeasurably (and almost exclusively) from the misery, exploitation and genocide of others from the time Columbus first landed onward.

Of course, they never will. However, as they become an increasingly smaller percentage of the population, I think more can and should be done to ensure that an equitable resolution is found to treat this unhealed wound. Trust me, they'll get over it. What are they going to do, move to Antarctica?

[Afromania]

159. Yes

Don't have double standards for us (ex. black 15yr old boy is a "man" while a nearly 30yr white man is a "boy/young man" )

Don't seek to impoverish the areas we live in

Don't seek to disenfranchise the areas we predominantly live in

Don't choose to allow the areas we predominantly live to be poisoned

Don't create special reasons to imprison us

Don't deny us equal, and unfettered, access to means of educational and economic advancement

Don't assume our successes somehow comes at your expense

Don't brutalize us

Don't rationalize our brutalization by others

Don't denigrate our culture and use it against us while simultaneously "borrowing" as much as possible from it

Don't make policy on the surface to "protect us" while simultaneously thinking up new ways to exploit us below it

Don't expect less of us

Don't expect more of us

Don't ignore us

Don't denigrate us and expect us to gloss it over

Don't gloss over the negative history of this country in relation to us

Don't play with statistics to create special "facts" to rationalize your hatred of us

Don't attempt to turn our anger at endemic and imperialistically proven racism into rational for your mistreatment of us

Don't create special reasons to imprison us

Don't make us into your personal boogie men

Don't try to blame us for the reasons why you choose to mistreat us

Don't condone/ignore/let slide any of the above because it's done by people "that wouldn't hurt a fly"

Don't ask us to "get over it"


Imagine, if you will a group of people that endured centuries of slavery followed by another century of systematic denial to the baseline economic and educational opportunities given to white folks, including those "fresh off the boat".

We as a people have only been "free" for perhaps 65-70 years, and that freedom as it stands comes with a number of caveats. A number of special unwritten rules that we must abide by to ensure we are granted the illusion of unfettered freedom.

Imagine if you will reparations took the form of us simply being left alone to grow without any of the don't s I listed happening every single day. The best part is that it would be absolutely free and the country would be better off for it. A win-win situation if there ever was one.

It's too bad that the mindset of certain folks in this country will ensure that it never happens. Instead we'll keep wasting time, money and effort spinning wheels while they stoke hate and fear within their ranks to win elections and explain away their own self created disenfranchisement.