New Jersey teacher tells first-graders there is no Santa

[Demovictory9]

A heartless New Jersey substitute teacher shattered the hearts of first-graders when she revealed that Santa Claus isn’t real, according to a report Friday.

The unnamed sub let the Christmas spirit-stomping secret slip at Cedar Hill School in Montville on Thursday, prompting officials to send parents apology letters, according to NJ.com.

“During the course of the day, a substitute teacher apparently announced to the class that Santa was not real,” Michael J. Raj wrote in the letter, which was provided to the site. “As a father of four myself, I am truly aware of the sensitive nature of this announcement.”

Raj told parents he was giving them a heads up about the bah-humbuggish behavior, in case their kids have questions about whether St. Nick is legit.

“[I’m writing] so that you are aware of the situation and if the conversation comes up at home over the next few days you can take appropriate steps to maintain the childhood innocence of the holiday season,” he said in the letter.

Raj gave the substitute teacher a talking-to about her “poor judgement in making this proclamation,” he said, according to nj.com.

The school’s superintendent, Rene Rovtar, added that she was “troubled and disheartened by this incident.”
https://nypost.com/2018/11/30/new-jersey-teacher-tells-first-grade-students-there-is-no-santa/

[dewsgirl]

1. She should be fired immediately, how dare she?

[Codeine]

71. Really?

She should lose her job for some minor shit like that? Even if you disagree with her action that doesn’t even begin to rise to level of termination.

[chillfactor]

76. sorry but I am a sub teacher in NM..

If I said that to first-grade students I sub for I would have been pulled out of the classroom and fired before I could blink my eyes. NO TEACHER has that right...it is up to PARENTS not teachers. I was in fourth grade before I realized there was not Santa Claus...but neither my PARENTS nor I ever spoiled that childhood reality from my two younger sisters. I have many small grandchildren and I would never ever spoil that bit of childhood for them nor would their PARENTS.

[Codeine]

77. Taking away a person's livelihood over a fairy tale

is utterly and completely absurd. It’s abhorrent that we would consider the perpetuation of a silly story - one that no modern child actually believes anyway - to be more important than an adult’s ability to make a living.

[LanternWaste]

165. It's almost as bad as the pretense that nation-states actually exist outside of our imaginations.

But I get it... some myths we predicate our entire lives on (e.g., politics). Others we mock.

Consistency is 'utterly and completely absurd...'

[Polybius]

174. But it's a fairy tale the vast majority of kids believe until they are a little older

Let them find out on their own. When I stopped believing, my mom told me never "Fine, but please don't tell any other kids he's not real. Don't ruin someone else's magic." I never did. The teacher should be fired.

[Coventina]

79. Huh, so at what age is it acceptable for teachers to stop lying to students?

I thought schools were meant to teach children, not lie to them.

No wonder we're so far behind globally in education....

[trixie2]

97. Should teachers tell students, even young ones, that there is no God?

Santa, God is the same thing.

[Coventina]

98. I would be A-OK with it!

Faith doesn't belong in the classroom.

[trixie2]

107. While I agree with you

Faith shouldn't be taught in the classroom but you can't expect the students not to discuss it themselves. School should be a place for students of like ages to learn to get along with each other in an empathetic and inclusive manner.

You may think teachers are the all powerful being in the classroom but more likely they are directing educational principles. The days of kids sitting silently are over. Education should be a discussion and practice of principles broader than the 3 Rs.

[Coventina]

110. I don't disagree with you. But I also think teachers should tell the truth.

Santa Claus is not real.

No teacher should be expected to say otherwise.

[John Fante]

117. You're OK with violating the constitution? Strong democratic values you have there.

[Coventina]

119. Telling the truth in the classroom is violating the Constitution?

Well, I guess you better lock up every teacher and professor in the country, then.

[John Fante]

124. With regards to government employees telling

children that God isn't real, hell yeah, it's a violation, even if it's true.

Telling kids Santa isn't real isn't illegal, but it's a pretty shitty thing to do. It's something a comedy villian would had done back in the day.

[Coventina]

125. How, pray tell, does it violate the Constitution?

And again, are you going to arrest every science teacher in the country?

[John Fante]

128. My science teachers never brought up religion or God

in the classroom. If they did, they would have fired on the spot.

[Coventina]

133. Did you go to a religious school?

Because my freshman (HS) science teacher taught me evolution, and that life began in the primordial soup in the oceans.

[John Fante]

135. My teacher taught us the same. He didn't finish his lesson

with, "btw, this completely discredits the book of Genesis."

[Coventina]

136. I guess I was enough of a critical thinker to realize it did. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

189. I took loads of science classes in HS and college.

Don't recall god ever being mentioned.

[stonecutter357]

154. lol

[d_r]

156. parents are the primary

socializers of their children.

[Coventina]

161. Not disputing that. But once a child goes to school, facts are facts. n/t

[d_r]

170. this isn't big brother communist world

the government doesn't get to take over when a child reaches school age. parents are the primary socializers of children. fuck this person not caring about their childhood.

[Coventina]

171. Yes, their childhood is ruined, because they found out Santa isn't real.

Maybe if parents didn't lie to their kids in the first place, we wouldn't have these teapot tempests.

[Crunchy Frog]

188. If it was my kid in that class, I'd just tell him that the sub

suffered from major mental illness and a severe drug abuse problem, and that's why she was talking crazy about Santa not being real. And I'd encourage him to spread that info around the school.

And yes. I "lied" to my kids and proud of it.

[d_r]

194. Yes me too

We would talk about how there are sad, sad people in the world and that wouldn't be a lie.

My children knew "Santa" the man in a small town that played Santa for years was a family friend. They had more fun resolving through real and pretend over the years than many. And we say that young children are "concrete thinkers" but the truth is some adults are.

[Coventina]

198. So.....more lies to cover up the first lie?

Sounds like a great contingency plan!

[Crunchy Frog]

205. I wonder when the "teacher" is going to be doxxed.

Get more truth out there.

[d_r]

193. No their christmas isu

I know that there are people challenged with empathy but they really should not be around young children

[Coventina]

199. Knowing Santa isn't real ruins Christmas?

I never believed in Santa, and I can assure you, I was just as excited about it as every other kid I knew.

[d_r]

209. yes, these are first graders

I am sorry but I think you missed out on something by the way you respond now.

[Coventina]

210. I'll freely admit that I didn't have a perfect childhood,

but not believing in Santa doesn't even come close to making any kind of list I would create.

[Charlotte Little]

211. There are children

living in other societies who have perfectly normal childhoods without Santa Claus, or alternatively, live is such horrific conditions and under such restrictive rules, they don't have childhoods at all really.

I don't think the sub should have "announced" it, but to say their childhoods were ruined is truly the perfect example of privileged first world country problems.

[forthemiddle]

158. Your right, faith doesnt belong in the classroom

But neither does atheism!
It is not the teachers right to get involved with the moral teachings of a family.
Are you ok with the Christian teacher telling the atheist student they are going to hell? It works both ways.
As for Santa, to ruin the innocence and Joy of the Holiday for a child because you don’t think they should believe is BS! That’s a family decision, which this teacher had no right to interfere with!

[Coventina]

162. There is no evidence to support the existence of gods or goddesses.

That is not being atheist, that is being scientific.

[WillowTree]

89. It wasn't her place. I'd be pissed as Hell if my kid was in that class.

[Codeine]

92. But why?

Why are you so invested in someone protecting your lie?

[Coventina]

94. This kind of reminds me of a co-worker I once had

who lied to her kid in order to get him to eat meat.

I told her she was in for a world of hurt once he figured out he'd been lied to and he would never believe her about anything ever again.

[Codeine]

96. Exactly!

I’m a vegan, but the kids and their mom aren’t. I made damned sure they understood from a young, young age that meat was flesh from animals killed to be eaten, but I let them make their own decision about eating it. I can’t imagine what finding that shit out later would be like.

People seem to forget that children are just little humans and don’t require a diet of fictions to survive.

[Inkfreak]

148. what utter bullshit.

“just little humans..”

[d_r]

157. I agree

young children's thinking is qualitatively different from adult thinking, including animism, pretense, and magical thinking.

[kcr]

181. Yeah. The self proclaimed, refined critical thinking skills extolled in this thread

sure lead to some odd conclusions. Children are just like adults, and teachers are apparently supposed to be literal and absolute truth tellers no matter the consequences. Apparently, critical thinking skills have nothing to do with empathy or social skills.

[WillowTree]

99. Because that was my decision, not some subtitute teacher.

You see awfully invested in parents not being able to bring up their own children as they see fit. I can't help but wonder how many parenting decisions you would have been willing to cede to some total stranger.

[Codeine]

108. Santa isn't a parenting decision!

Santa is a folk tale turned into an industry by Coca-Cola.

I don’t expect the world to abide by my parenting decisions. I’ve raised my kids as atheists, but I know they’ll be prosyltized to outside the home. That’s the world.

If I choose to lie to my children I’m not going to pretend that someone exposing that lie has undermined my parenting. It’s just made me look like a liar.

[WillowTree]

163. Whatever. You're too devoted to your agenda to engage in meaningful conversation.

Enjoy your weekend.

[Buzz cook]

146. Should older children

that tell younger kids there is no Santa get a whipping?

Should the same hold true for other mythic characters?

[BannonsLiver]

183. Nice strawman

Tell me, are the older kids in positions of authority like a teacher?

[Buzz cook]

219. Not like a teacher

But yes older children are in a position of authority over younger children. Just as adults in general have positions of authority over children.

Authority is not just in the office one holds. Authority is also an aspect of the social hierarchy.
If it was abuse of authority for the teacher to spill the beans, then the same is true of any person in any position of authority.

There are churches that actively discourage belief in Santa and other mythic characters. Are their acts wrong?
The children attending those churches spread that lack of belief among their peers.
Where should we place blame there? Should there be punishment?

You need to look up the definition of the strawman logical fallacy.

What I did was the reductio ad absurdum.

[Doodley]

2. How dare she tell children the truth?

[USALiberal]

5. Hope she gets fired. nt

[John Fante]

17. It's not her place to do that.

She should be fired, no question.

[StarryNite]

20. Absolutely!

Not her place, she was out of line!

[Doodley]

213. She was out of line to tell the truth? Are you kidding?

[bitterross]

30. No, she's supposed to go along with the lie.

I mean seriously, what will she do next? Tell them about the Easter Bunny?

[trixie2]

101. A teacher's place is not to direct beliefs

I have had students vigorously discuss the merits of their own religions. My job is to not interfere and make sure things don't escalate.

[bitterross]

150. Santa Claus is not a religion. It's a lie adults tell kids.

I think it is proper you stay out of discussions about religion.

When it comes to Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy the same does not hold true. Why, as a society, we've decided that it's proper to lie to our children for the first 10-12 years of their lives about these fairy-tale beings is a great question. Someone will tell me it's tradition. Well, women staying at home and not working was traditional. We don't do that anymore. Only people of the opposite sex being able to be married was traditional. We don't follow that tradition either.

What social value are we teaching our kids when we teach them that their parents and all adults are in on the conspiracy to lie to them about these things? Especially now that there is the internet. I typed in the search "Is Santa Clause real?" Guess what? He's not according to what I found online.

Most families carry on the traditions of Christmas after all the kids know there is no Santa Claus. I don't think I've ever heard of parents stopping the traditional gift-giving and celebrations just because they've stopped lying to the kids.

Go ahead an lie to your kids. It's your choice. When they bring up the fact that you lied to them though, don't use the excuse "Well, everyone does it." You're not going to let them get away with that so, why should you.

[handmade34]

155. for those terribly

offended by what this sub teacher did... Santa Clause IS a religion...


maybe telling kids that Santa exists is a lie... then I would suggest that telling kids about one's god is lying to them....


with young children in a school setting... "it is proper you stay out of discussions about religion (God and Santa)

[trixie2]

207. I think all religions are lies

How is the whole god or gods thing any different?

[Doodley]

214. What about facts? Isn't it a teacher's job to teach facts?

[trixie2]

216. Are you agreeing then the fact is there is no god or gods?

Because I agree with you.

Maybe by saying, "I got your nose", to an infant is just the first lie.

As a teacher I would stay away from family ideals and traditions.

[Crunchy Frog]

190. Maybe she'll tell little Timmy that Daddy and Mommy

are both having affairs with other people. If it's the truth, then it shouldn't be a problem.

[trixie2]

217. lol

True

[NYC Liberal]

43. Someone should lose their job, their livelihood, because they told the truth?

Why does the Santa story have to be “real” in order for children to enjoy it? Kids enjoy lots of things without being convinced that they are “real”.

Even if you think it wasn’t their place, firing is an absurd overreaction.

[Coventina]

53. IKR? Teachers, how dare they tell kids things?

They are just glorified babysitters, after all!!!

[prudence54]

54. this! totally agree and well said...

[Codeine]

62. Exactly.

Stop lying to your goddamned kids and you won’t have to freak out when you get called out on your bullshit.

[Separation]

85. Absolutely!

It's not even like kids are all over the internet and I'm sure they could have even stumbled across this very story on MSN.




Being fired for the truth, how crazy (and stupid).

BTW to actual teachers out there, how is Columbus covered in the history books. I also find my answer varies by location as well strangely enough, (Well not that strange with all the pop up schools)

[Codeine]

95. Good point.

We always knew that Santa story was just a story, but it was still fun and we enjoyed Christmas in exactly that same way that knowing Darth Vader wasn’t real had zero impact on my ability to enjoy Star Wars.

[BannonsLiver]

184. Where does one draw the line?

There are a lot of “truths” that aren’t appropriate for first graders.

[NYC Liberal]

196. Knowing that a fictional character is fictional is not appropriate for a first-grader?

Again: Why does the Santa story have to be “real” for children to enjoy it?

[BannonsLiver]

203. Ultimately it's the parent's decision on when to pull the plug on Santa

Not some third rate substitute teacher. What’s so hard about respecting boundaries?

[Doodley]

215. Agree. Parents manipulating children into believing supernatural stories is the issue.

[whathehell]

78. Exactly -- Not her place at all. n/t

[Iggo]

103. Telling children the truth is her actual job.

[Codeine]

112. "You had one job! How dare you do it?!" nt

[Doodley]

212. Are you kidding? It's not her place to tell the truth?

[California_Republic]

31. Where does she get off Educating them!

[violetpastille]

3. I never told my kid that there was a Santa.

and I actually didn't care if other people insisted to her that there was.

I think it's all pretty annoying but..it's the cost of civilization I guess. I get indoor plumbing, so I guess I can put up with other people getting excited about Santa and the NFL.

[Codeine]

91. LMAO!!

Flush toilets or the truth?!

[msongs]

4. evidently telling the truth to kids is not a cedar hill school family value nt

[USALiberal]

6. Why discuss it at all?? How about telling them there is no God? Etc. nt

[malaise]

7. They should

It's all BS

[USALiberal]

8. Yet most normal teachers don't do it. nt

[violetpastille]

12. What's so extra special about Santa?

Would this teacher be reviled for telling the kids that Ananzi the Spider isn't actually holding all the stories in the world in his pot?

I'm guessing that the NY Post would not give one shit.

[malaise]

15. Or that Mikey Mouse isn't real

I'll never get it.
Love the Anansi reference.

[Codeine]

93. "Mom, my teacher said it isn't turtles all the way down!"

The temerity!

[Ms. Toad]

16. Pesky little thing called the first amendment.

Unless it is a private school, teachers can neither promote nor inhibit the free exercise of religion. I.e. they cannot tell them that God exists (promoting religion) - or that God does not exist (inhibiting the free exercise thereof).

[Major Nikon]

48. That's not inhibiting anything

Even if it was teachers don’t give up their own first amendment rights at the door of the schoolhouse.

[Ms. Toad]

159. You're right-i got the prong wrong -

It's the establishment clause. And it generally prohibits faculty from teaching their religious beliefs.

The 1A rights you are refencing are general rights to political speech - which does not beat out the other 1A right to be free from government imposition of religion.

[LiberalFighter]

9. The sub was not following the school curiculum.

Should be fired permanently.

[USALiberal]

10. Yep, no reason to discuss santa at all. Just wanted to cause issues I assume. nt

[torius]

11. There is no President, either,

for the time being.

[MyOwnPeace]

13. And THAT

really has me upset!!!!

[tnlurker]

14. My first grade teacher did the same thing 51 years ago

I thought it was very freeing to not have to believe in Santa any more.

I turn out okay.

[Beakybird]

18. My teacher told me there was no Santa.

It was my Hebrew school teacher. He told me that the man in the red suit was Hanukkah Harry.

[ProudLib72]

26. If you've been good, then Harry will leave you gelt

But if you've been bad, he will leave you a jar of gefilte fish in jelly!

[sprinkleeninow]

86. Or pickled herring in cream sauce! 😋

[ProudLib72]

106. I tried that once

You know, you see these people eating that sort of stuff and think it must be good.

[sprinkleeninow]

118. My father-in-law (Swedish) made his pickled herring every Christmas for Smorgasbord.

I hung around the bowl and enjoyed it. Then, I cleaned my face with my paw like a kitteh. 😆
No, I dint, but my husband ran away with his nose turned up and scrunched up face and couldn't figure how I could eat the stuff. "You had to be there." 🤣

I got some in cream sauce in the fridge right now. I'll dig in later today. 😋

[ProudLib72]

122. The only Scandavian food I'm going near is lefsa

And then when I find it, I'm eating every last piece!

I just don't do fish for the most part.

[sprinkleeninow]

126. I could inhale those also!

Any ethnic potato type pancake/crepe.
Num-num! 😋

[Hermit-The-Prog]

19. next, schools tell kids there's no Grinch or Wizard of Oz

WTF is the big deal?

Stop lying to kids.

[kimbutgar]

21. I was a substitute teacher in a class this year and talked about the Easter bunny.

This little kid said there was no Easter bunny. I said yes there is one and I’m looking forward to eating chocolate eggs on Easter Sunday. Then I changed the subject.

[John Fante]

23. The correct move. Apparently that's too hard for some people.

[JCanete]

24. Why is that the correct move? To literally contradict a child who is right and to tell that

child a lie instead?

Now let me be clear, I'm sensitive to this issue, and to the magic of the mythology of things like the easter bunny and Santa Clause, and I tend to perpetuate the stories with my nieces and nephews...etc. because they aren't my kids .I'm less certain what I'd do if I had my own children. I'm less certain that simply contradicting a child WITH a lie is good on any level. Their parents may have chosen to raise their children without Santa or the Easter Bunny, and that's just as legitimate, if not more-so, so how is it fair to the child to simply tell that child he or she is wrong. I imagine there are other ways to do it.

And there's something just off about making it okay to lie to children entirely unnecessarily, particularly when we're trying to set a bar of morality that suggests deception is not a desired quality...hilariously as we package being good in with being rewarded by Santa himself(who sees you when you're sleeping and knows if you've been bad or good).

Its a fascinating betrayal that must be felt by some kids when they realize that their parents will lie to them. Now maybe that's a powerful life-lesson in itself, but my guess is at some level it teaches that lying, particularly to children, is respectable. And in the mean-time the mythology of santa is used as a manipulation to get children to do what parents want them to do. Again, I'm not a parent, and I know its hard, and sometimes I understand that expedience is of the essence, but I'm hesitent to put any kind of stamp of approval on this whole thing...to say nothing of the supply-side consumerism angle, which is of course, killing the world.

[John Fante]

32. I was assuming that other children were listening in on

this exchange. No need to spoil it for them on account of one kid.

[Codeine]

70. So lie to one student

in order to perpetuate the lies already told to other children?

We never told our kids Santa brought toys, that the Easter Bunny brought all that candy, that a fairy was paying for their teeth, or that an invisible sky daddy was judging their morals. And even if we HAD told them that, they wouldn’t have believed any of it, because it’s the goddamned 21st century and they aren’t idiots.

[John Fante]

105. Careful, you're going dislocate a shoulder patting

yourself on the back like that.

[Codeine]

111. Someone needs a nap. nt

[McCamy Taylor]

22. Here is the plausible Santa story.

Santa has a mind control machine (Think Professor Xavier in X-Men). With it he is able to persuade parents all over the world to buy and hide presents for their kids. The parents then forget about it until Christmas Eve when they fall under Santa's mind control spell again and they get the presents out of hiding. Then they forget again. On Christmas morning there are presents that no one remembers buying, so the parents assume Santa brought them. Because every child above the age of 5 knows that Santa can not be everywhere at once or carry gifts to every child in the world in one night. But all kids who watch cartoons or read comics or see movies know that mind control machines are real.

When my son started to doubt Santa, I told him this one. The beauty is it allows your child to believe or not believe depending upon what they want.

[NCjack]

25. What is going on in NJ? When I was in 1st grade in Houston (1946),

all the kids knew that Santa was a fraud.

[pnwmom]

27. How do you know that? Did you poll them all?

I couldn't say what all the kids in my class thought, but I know I still believed in first grade. I remember when I figured it out for myself -- and I'm glad it wasn't some thoughtless teacher deciding to spoil the fun.

[NCjack]

35. I didn't have to poll anyone. The rumor mill put out the message

that Santa is a fraud, and the few who tried to cling to the story were provided with examples.

[pnwmom]

60. It's better when kids figure out themselves

than when some strange adult decides to tell them. But I told my kids not to spoil the fun for their classmates who didn't know already. (Or for younger siblings.) I remember how unhappy my sister was when a thoughtless kindergarten teacher made the announcement to the class. It was much better for me. When I had questions, I asked my mom and got an answer -- and I was ready to hear it.

It sounds like you were one of the ones spreading the word to the other kids, and you were proud of your superior knowledge. But you still can't know exactly what every child in your first grade class thought in 1946 -- unless you saw someone make a general announcement to the whole class, as my sister did.

[kcr]

182. Anyone other than a parent who deliberately tells a little kid there's no Santa is a raging asshole.

Not a righteous truth teller. It's not hard. You're right. It's better when kids figure it out on their own. My mom let me figure it out on my own, and I think that's what led me to question other beliefs too, which is why I'm an agnostic. She also told me not to tell other kids who still believed because it would be mean, which helped teach me empathy.

[Crunchy Frog]

191. Exactly!

[Codeine]

63. Right?!

We never believed in that nonsense. It was all clearly fictional.

[radical noodle]

109. That's strange...

When I was in first grade in 1952 none of the kids I knew were aware there was no Santa.

[Codeine]

114. I guess shit was different in the 70s

because not one single kid I knew ever discussed Santa as being anything other than mom and dad and a closet full of toys that we’d already snooped into.

[radical noodle]

131. I was a mother in the 70s

Most of the kids my daughter's age believed in Santa as little kids. Most parents didn't lie when asked (nor did mine, for that matter). I fondly remember believing in Santa when I was little and was not traumatized to learn that it was "make believe." I think the world is a bit of a sadder place without such things.

OMG... you snooped?

[Codeine]

138. I was the king of snoopers.

We were latchkey kids from a very early age so hiding things from me was basically impossible. My sister was happy to be surprised, but I had to sate my curiosity.

I’ve thwarted my kids’ snooping attempts by keeping the gifts in the trunk of my car until we get them wrapped. I’ve learned from the failure of my parents!

[radical noodle]

139. Good job!

I also hid presents in the trunk of my car!

[Siwsan]

28. I remember a priest doing that, during a school day mass

It was the same priest who called me out, from the alter, one time, for having the nerve to discuss the idea of reincarnation.

[Coventina]

29. I've never been in favor of lying to kids.

I never believed in Santa and it never decreased my enjoyment of Christmas.

I have zero problem with a teacher telling the truth.

[Codeine]

74. Yep. I knew what Santa was and the stories

but it was never presented to me as anything other than an old-fashioned tradition by my parents. They made it clear they were buying the gifts so I had better not be a little shit if I wanted stuff under the tree.

They also never shoved that Jesus crap down my throat either, to their credit.

[Coventina]

33. Also want to add: outcry over ruining Santa. Teaching Creationism A-OK!

[John Fante]

36. I'm an atheist. Creationism is garbage that has no place in any school.

This teacher was in the wrong. Period.

[Coventina]

39. Nope. If a child is in school, the truth is what matters.

Leave nursery tales in the nursery.

[John Fante]

44. We're not talking about teaching a course on Santa Claus FFS.

Make believe is important to little kids, and I'll be damned if some stick-in-the-mud teacher is going to interfere with that.

[Coventina]

51. So at what point is it OK to stop lying to kids?

[Codeine]

69. There's a vast difference between

make-believe, which is something children do themselves - with their own agency and fully aware that what they are engaging in is fantasy - and straight up being lied to by adults.

[John Fante]

132. Lol @ vast.

You act like it's indoctrination. Most little kids want to believe in Santa, so you play along. Were you always 40ish?

[Codeine]

141. I loved make-believed as a kid.

My childhood was basically an unbroken game of Dungeons and Dragons and Star Wars action figures in the weedlot next door.

The difference was that we chose to make believe. It wasn’t fed to us as fact. We exercised agency without even knowing what that meant or that we were doing it, and I think that’s a valuable experience for a child.

[BannonsLiver]

186. Maybe she could also show Holocaust films?

And photos of car accidents? Those are “truths” as well.

some “truths” are age appropriate and some are not.

Moreover, what this teacher did was make a decision that should have been in the hands of the parents.

[Coventina]

197. Right, because that's exactly the same thing. *sarcasm*

Telling children the truth of things is not the same as showing graphic imagery.

[BannonsLiver]

202. But it's truth right?

truth is truth.

[Coventina]

204. Yes, but how truth is communicated can take many different forms.

When kids ask where babies come from you tell them the truth, you don't show them pornography.

It's really not that hard.

[Oneironaut]

59. God is the socially acceptable form of Santa for adults.

Instead of bringing presents, he helps people who are afraid of dying live in perpetual denial.

[John Fante]

34. The concept of "they're not your fucking kids" seems lost on people.

If this teacher wants to tell 6-year-olds that Santa isn't real, she needs to get her own.

[Hekate]

45. Harshly put, but I agree. This is a stupid argument over a childhood fairy tale meant to be outgrown

It's not up to teachers or others to interfere with the enjoyment of other families. If it harms none, do what you will -- and in my book, Santa isn't hurting anyone.

Incidentally, my mother didn't believe in Santa -- or Cinderella -- or stories in general that taught children there was a path to happiness that didn't involve hard work. Useful lessons in themselves, but a little joyless. She did talk about "Santa" representing "the spirit of Christmas, of loving and giving, etc etc." that worked okay.

I myself told my little ones that there was a Santa Claus -- and they outgrew the notion by about the age of six.

[NewJeffCT]

46. That's my position

it's not the teacher's place to tell them about this - the kids will figure it out on their own sooner or later. If not, the parents will have to do it on their own. Not the place of the teacher - substitute or not - to tell them about Santa.

[Squinch]

55. This.

[Codeine]

64. Perhaps instead of railing against

an educator having the temerity to educate the parents in question could stop telling lies to their children.

If you don’t lie to your kids then you won’t get emotionally injured when you get caught lying to your kids.

[John Fante]

115. What a crock of shit. They're first graders. Make believe

and fantasy are big parts of their development. Santa Claus isn't going to emotionally scar them.

[Codeine]

121. And finding out Santa isn't real

isn’t going to scar them either, and has the decided advantage of being, y’know, actual fact.

[John Fante]

130. Sure about that? You just said your kids would never believe in Santa

because "they're not idiots". Translation: kids who do believe in Santa are idiots.

They doesn't sound well-adjusted to me. That sounds cynical. Bitter. Angry.

[Codeine]

137. Bitter and angry? Cynical?

Not at all. I think kids are bright and vibrant and thrive in a world where they’re treated honestly and equally. I am quite amused by your personal attacks, however. It’s delightful to see people flailing.

My own children specifically (raised in a household of skeptics and atheists) would probably have to be idiots to still believe in a fairy tale by 1st grade. That’s just not the way they were brought up, honestly.

Kids raised in a household where things are presented differently may end up being a bit more. . . credulous.

[Chemisse]

67. Agreed.

It's not her decision to make.

[kcr]

164. Yep. It's not that hard.

Santa is indeed a parenting decision. Not to mention Christmas is still a religious holiday, even if it doesn't always seem that way anymore. Whether or not this is a firing offense, this teacher had no business interfering in the religious and cultural practices of others.

[bronxiteforever]

37. My older brother died of cancer when I was a child

He suffered and I saw the chemo literally burn his flesh. I grew up in the Bronx in the 1960s early 70s and three kids in my schools were murdered on the streets.

I learned truth and the truth is that there is evil that flows from some adults like a waterfall. I learned that disease can literally rot away someone you love. The lies are that an adult can keep a child safe. Tell the 6 years old that, that is the truth. But I bet the truth seekers don’t tell their 6 years old that do they? Believing in Santa Claus is a lie but adults lie to children every fucking day. If a fairy tale gives them some brief happiness why the fuck does anyone care?

I defend some innocence in childhood because the way it went down with mine, it can be ripped away in a “New York Minute”.

And if the teach wanted to help them with truth, how about some science or a story about kindness. But hey kindness is a lie to some kids- just ask the child in the Disney pajamas we tear gassed.

[harumph]

47. You're right. Sometimes it's a kindness to lie. But it's wisdom to know when that is.

[blueinredohio]

38. I never told the grandkids yes or no when they asked about Santa.

My reply was I don't know but do you think your parents can afford to give you all those gifts?

[Rorey]

90. What I said to my kids

What I said to my very sharp kids when they asked: "Do you want to take a chance?" At some point I explained that some people find it enjoyable to believe in Santa, or the concept of Santa, and they should try to be considerate and not ruin it for them.

I don't think I ever flat out told my kids that there's not really a man dressed in a red suit that goes down chimneys and gives some kids whose families have lots of money great gifts and others whose families don't have money not-so-great gifts or no gifts at all. My kids didn't need to have that explained to them. They kind of just knew the truth.

[Bradshaw3]

40. OMG will the liberal war on Christmas never end?

[brettdale]

41. So there is no Santa?

So there is no Santa?
And no Easter Bunny?
And No tooth fairy?
And No WKRP in Cincinnati???

[no_hypocrisy]

42. Something similar happened in Lynchburg, VA in 1978.

Liberty University (Jerry Falwell's place of "higher education&quot was then a smaller Christian college, Liberty Baptist. One of their students was an education major and signed up as a substitute teacher and went into the public schools.

One gigue had him in a kindergarten class around Christmas. More or less the same thing happened, but with a twist. The sub told the kids that there was no Santa Claus 10 before Christmas. The kids had a collective meltdown, crying and sobbing. The sub tried to cheer them up by telling them there was someone better than Santa Claus. You guessed it: JESUS CHRIST, the Savior.

Well, Lynchburg had 90 Baptist churches at the time, but the parents went ape-shit on this. Not only was the sub fired and banned, but I heard that no substitutes from that blessed institution taught in the public schools in Lynchburg for several years because of that incident.

[Major Nikon]

49. I can think of better things to be outraged over

Describing this as “shattering” is silly beyond belief. When the kids get home their parents can repeat the lie and the suspension of critical thinking can resume. Just like when other kids tell them the same thing.

[TexasBushwhacker]

50. I want to know WHY she felt the need to share this

My guess is that she's a nutter who thinks that Santa Claus is part of the WAR ON CHRISTMAS.

I have a friend who has triplets. 2 of them found out the truth before the other. She was CRUSHED when she finally did.

[Codeine]

88. Maybe a kid asked

and she wasn’t willing to lie? Should someone lie in that hypothetical situation? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

Did you ever think that the reason a child might be “CRUSHED” when they learn Santa is a made-up story is because they realize they’ve been lied to? And that a really easy way to avoid a child being “CRUSHED” is to not friggin’ lie to them in the first goddamned place?

[Apollyonus]

52. I'm torn about this

On one hand it is cruel and the decision to tell the truth should be the parents.

On the other hand, we should raise our children to be free of superstition and fantastic beliefs to make them logical, rational, analytical and scientific minded.

I don't know how I'd react if my children were in that school.

[Codeine]

127. An honest question;

why is it cruel to expose a lie? Isn’t the real cruelty telling the lie in the first place?

Maybe if we stopped telling impressionable little people that this fun old folk tale is actual fact then everyone could enjoy it and nobody would have to deal with any of this crap.

[Snackshack]

56. Oh...

The horror...

Once I was old enough to understand the concept of Santa...I also understood the concept that it took several hours just to go to a four or five different places for groceries, clothes, household items with a stop for lunch in there somewhere...so the idea that one guy went to every house on the planet in under 12hrs I knew was sketchy.

[Doreen]

57. My personal feelings on this subject.

I do not think it is so much as lying to a child than giving them a little boost for imagination and something fun to look forward to. Most children figure it out for themselves as they get older and it does not mess with their ability to function in anyway for the rest of their lives. I just figured it out myself but because I figured it out it was not a devistating loss. It was not her job to break the news to those kids no more than it would have been her job to tell all the religious boys and girls that their god does not exist. It is not the teachers responsibility to tell children that fantasy is wrong. Even though I do not believe in Santa did not mean I was going to pop off to children that he does not exist.

[IcyPeas]

113. It's magical..

I loved being a kid who believed in Santa. Eventually I figured it out, but it was magical while it lasted. I agree with you , it's not lying.

[Doreen]

123. Magical is a good way to describe it.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

176. lying: telling of false statements with the intent to deceive

That's not "magical", it's lying.

Of course, when the child discovers that adults are liars and cannot be trusted, it could make it harder for pedophiles and con artists to exploit them. That assumes they discover that unsavory truth before falling victim.

[jberryhill]

201. It's also magical to believe a stranger has candy in his pocket

Lying to children is not a good idea.

Make-believe and imagination are different from deceiving them.

[Cairycat]

58. We told our children from the get-go that Santa was not real

However, we told them that believing in Santa was a game that many parents liked to play with their children, and it would be rotten to spoil it for them. I think my kids appreciated knowing the the truth, and as far as I know, they never spoiled it for other kids.

I can't imagine why this substitute teacher felt the need to tell the kids this. Hell, I'm pretty lousy at thinking on my feet, but there are certainly ways to dance around this. I suppose this teacher should be censured, but truth telling doesn't seem like something a person should lose their job over. But these are strange times ....

I've been a lunch lady for many years, and one of my funniest stories is of a time when we had a substitute custodian in the lunchroom one December day. This man had white hair and beard, and we overheard some of the first-graders opining that he was Santa, checking up to see if they were being good in school - !

[Codeine]

84. We never tried to pass it off as real to our kids either.

Hell, if for no other reason than I’m not willing to give some imaginary obese senior citizen credit for all those gifts I just blew my paycheck on!

[Codeine]

61. WTF is going on that first graders still believe

in Santa Claus?!

I don’t get this world sometimes. Stop telling idiot stories to your kids. Rabbits delivering eggs, fae creatures that exchange teeth for coins, Bronze Age mystics rising from the dead, fat polar-dwelling men dropping wrapped gifts down the chimney — it’s all ridiculous.

[cynatnite]

65. A friend of mine tried explaining the concept of Santa to her children...

This was years ago. She told how he was once a real person and now Santa is in our hearts and all that.

Then her little boy went to school and told his friends that Santa was dead. Yeah, she got a couple of phone calls on that one.

We still laugh about it to this day.

[Demovictory9]

166. lol. Some parents feel very strongly about Santa. They want the "magic of Christmas"

to remain until kid figures it out.

[Iggo]

167. Yeah, they do.

However, that magic always ends up smelling just like bullshit.

Every kid, ever, learns there's no Santa. These ones learned in a classroom.

They'll survive.

[milestogo]

66. A friend of mine was a school bus driver for elementary school kids -

One day there was a big argument on the bus as to whether Santa was real or Santa was your parents... older kids vs younger kids. So one of the young ones came up to my friend and asked him to settle it. He busted out with "jingle bells" and all the kids on the bus started singing.

I thought that was a pretty clever answer.

[JDC]

68. It's an asshole move, regardless of truth vs make believe

Why shit on a little kid's fantasy? 'Cause that is what this is about. It's not about telling the truth over a lie. Its just being a dick.

[kcr]

179. Yes. That's why I think less of a few DUers after reading this thread.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. My two sons are four and a half years apart in age.

I happily did the Santa Claus thing. When older son was about 9, and he and I were out in the car somewhere, I cautiously asked him if he really knew who Santa Claus was. With great embarrassment, he admitted he knew that his parents were really SC. What a relief! He was going along with the Santa Claus myth to protect his younger brother, which was quite sweet.

[Codeine]

73. None of those kids really believed in that crap anyway.

Kids aren’t dumb and they live in a world soaked in information. By that age they’re all perfectly fucking aware it’s a story.

The only people hurt by this are their ever-doting over-delicate mommies and daddies who want to believe that they and their offspring still live in Magical Old-People Innocence World .

[gopiscrap]

75. bullshit quit lying to the kids

she did a community a service Christmas is a pain in the ass as it is maybe this will take some of the commercialism out of it

[violetpastille]

82. +1

To misquote Gandhi, "I like your Christ but not your Christmas. Your Christmas is so unlike your Christ."

[gopiscrap]

83. I like that

[Inkfreak]

149. sorry you never got a what you wanted.

[Meowmee]

80. This is why we have dump

Lies are ok. My father told one of his teachers there is no god, and was reprimanded, but not expelled. 😹

[Liberal In Texas]

81. His next trick is telling the kids there is no God.

Also, there's no heaven or hell.

And while we're at it, when your parents said Snuggles was going to the farm to live, they were lying.

This is not his remit. He has no business doing this.

[lunasun]

87. First grade ? Asshole !

[Codeine]

100. What if he told them that Hansel and Gretel

aren’t actual historical figures, Batman isn’t really protecting Gotham City, and that Gremlins aren’t really Mogwai that got wet?

Seriously, which lies need absolute social perpetuation and which don’t, and to what age do those stories require said perpetuation? Should an educator be required to lie if asked about Santa by a 1st grader but not a 3rd grader?

[Crunchy Frog]

192. Strawman.

Kids aren't actually socialized to believe those other things.

Maybe she should tell them that most of their mommies and daddies are cheating on each other.

[WillowTree]

102. It's stupid stunts like this that are among the things that lead people to home school their kids.

[Coventina]

104. Wow! People want to keep their kids home in order to protect them from the truth?

That's a super disturbing idea!

[Codeine]

120. Wait. Wait just a minute.

People should HOMESCHOOL over motherfucking Santa Claus?!



It’s a goddamned folk tale! Should Paul Bunyan be taught as fact? Are we to require our teachers to pretend that Zeus and Apollo are real and throwing lightning bolts from Mt Fuckin’ Olympus?

[WillowTree]

140. I didn't say that.

But many people get angry when teachers don't respect them as parents. Allowing a child to participate in the Santa fantasy or not is something that most parents would say is their decision to make, not a total stranger who isn't even the kid's regular teacher. And yes, there are a lot of parents who expect their kids to be taught what used to be called "liberal arts" types of lessons and the fact that teachers are taking it upon themselves to "teach" lessons that those parents feel should be I their purview, yes, is often part of what's behind the decisions that some parents make to home school their kids.

You don't have to agree with that concept. I don't entirely, but I do understand the desire to be allowed to make such decisions for one's own child. And it is part of that syndrome.

[oberliner]

152. This is why the NY Post is amplifying this story

Basically they just took a FB post and turned it into a news item in order to generate that exact reaction.

[EllieBC]

129. What a miserable piece of trash.

Let kids enjoy things. If you want to be miserable and constantly tending your clothing while navel gazing over all that sucks, fine. Don’t drag kids down just because your life is so sad.

[Codeine]

142. Oh good lord.

By the time a 21st century kid is in 1st grade they bloody well know Santa is a story. Nobody is harmed by this except overly-delicate parents.

[EllieBC]

147. I have told my kid

because it’s not our holiday, be quiet. Don’t ruin it for kids that celebrate. That’s pretty easy for her and she has autism. Seems like adults who are neurotypical can’t seem to be as thoughtful.

Look I know you’re thrilled this teacher may have ruined it for those kids. Not sure why you’re so bitter.

[womanofthehills]

134. Some little kids are trying to figure out what's what

My grandaughter was 3 or 4 when she said to me - "Grandma, I just figured out God - he is the same as the Easter bunny and Santa."

[Codeine]

144. Your granddaughter is going to be a badass.

[defacto7]

143. Someone needs to sue on the grounds of

the constitutional separation of Santa and state.

[Codeine]

145. Marley vs. Scrooge set a clear precedent. nt

[oberliner]

151. The NY Post is a RW tabloid which emphasizes stories that attempt to make liberals look bad

Specifically, they regularly run stories highlighting incidents that present public school teachers as "crazy liberals" and whatnot.

[redwitch]

153. Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus.

See The New York Sun September 21st 1897.

The Santa Claus myth was an incredibly beautiful part of my childhood and was for my children too. It was mean spirited of this teacher to say what she did. I don’t know that is rises to the level f a fireable offense but as she is a sub they don’t have to use her services again.

[StarryNite]

173. Exactly!

[eppur_se_muova]

160. Well, that should warm them up for the later discussion of Creationism.

"OK, kids, older people conspired to lie to you about Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, but this stuff in the Bible -- now, *this* stuff is legit, trust us !"

[elocs]

168. So, telling the 6 & 7 year olds there is no Santa

was on the class schedule for that day?
This teacher knew exactly what she was doing and that she would get in trouble for it. Likely that's why she is a sub.
Telling children that young there is no Santa Claus is not the job of their teacher but should be left to their parents.

[Captain Stern]

169. I think what the substitute teacher did was wrong.

Going by the part of the article that was posted, she "announced to the class that Santa was not real". If that's actually what happened, I wouldn't have a problem with her being fired. If she said it, and didn't intend for the entire class to hear it, I'd cut her some slack.

Her job as a substitute teacher isn't "to tell the truth". Her job is to follow the lesson plan of the teacher that she's substituting for.

My parents lied to me about Santa. I'm glad they did. It was a lot of fun. I remember having so much trouble falling asleep my 16th Christmas because I was so excited that Santa might bring me a car.

Kidding aside, telling your kids there's a Santa till they figure it out isn't hurting them. I don't know anyone that wishes their parents hadn't pretended there was a Santa.

[book_worm]

172. It's pretty heartless of her to take it for herself to tell those kids something like this

even if you think it's wrong to have kids believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy that wasn't her place to do this.

[frogmarch]

175. I agree 100%

I don't like the Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy hoaxes people play on kids, but it was not the teacher's place to tell the kids that Santa isn't real. Such news can be jarring for kids. I'm 75, but I clearly remember the Christmas when I was 4 that my older sister told me Santa wasn't real. I remember everything about it in detail. I was traumatized.

When my niece was 5, she found out from kids at school that Santa was make-believe. Her mom, my sister, told me that when my niece came home from school and told her about it my niece said, "Next, I suppose I'll find out God and Jesus aren't real either!" My sister told me all she could think of to say in response was, "Well..."

[Cha]

178. Exactly, book_worm.

[Cha]

177. From my perspective as a parent and

a kid once.. I don't think it's a First Grade Teacher's place to tell that to the kids.

I still remember my Mom telling me and I was bummed! Glad she's the one who told me.

I don't think she should be fired but it's hard to imagine a teacher thinking it's her job to announce that to a classroom of 1st graders.

It's obvious from the reactions of some of the parents, the Superintendent, and the Principle that it was not the best course of action.

[leftyladyfrommo]

206. That us just how I feel. nt

[dalton99a]

218. +1. Mean and stupid, but not a firing offense

[Cattledog]

185. Lots of outrage over a Murdoch paper story

I’m sure it tells the complete facts of the incident.

[Crunchy Frog]

195. It's actually all over the news.

The OP just happened to cite the New York Post, but they could have cited any number of sources.

https://www.nj.com/expo/news/erry-2018/11/f1622d938f477/substitute-teacher-didnt-stop.html

[Cha]

208. Thanks for that, Crunchy

[Crunchy Frog]

187. Why wasn't she fired? n/t

[ColoradoBlue]

200. Yeesh

When I was 8, I was telling my grandmother about what the Easter Bunny brought me and she blurted out, "Oh, you know there's no such thing as the Easter Bunny!" I was HEARTBROKEN and burst into tears. Of course, I had had my suspicions but I still WANTED to believe. It was tough to find out that way and it has always stuck with me. I think most kids just figure it out their own and are rarely as heartbroken as I was to find out the way I did. My siblings all came to that realization on their own and have never been angry or resentful or felt they were "lied to" by our parents and continued the traditions with their own kids. But I guarantee you I'm still a teensy bit miffed that I found out how I did. (My grandmother did tell me years later that she felt bad about how she told me and apologized.)

Santa and the Easter Bunny are imaginary but they're fun and exciting for most kids. They certainly were for me and my sibs. Kids have such a short time to be innocent and to believe in imagination and magic. Just let them have it.