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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNeil deGrasse Tyson Responds to Sexual Misconduct Accusations
On Being Accused
NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON·SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2018
For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in todays me-too climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due-process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.
In any claim, evidence matters. Evidence always matters. But what happens when its just one persons word against anothers, and the stories dont agree? Thats when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom. And thats when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth and would have my full cooperation to do so.
Ive recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past forty-eight hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, its not the medias fault. I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press. But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent. So below I offer my account of each accusation.
The 2009 Incident
I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them. A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore. As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice youre wearing cosmic bling clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically. And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph.
A colleague at a well attended, after-conference, social gathering came up to me to ask for a photograph. She was wearing a sleeveless dress with a tattooed solar system extending up her arm. And while I dont explicitly remember searching for Pluto at the top of her shoulder, it is surely something I would have done in that situation. As we all know, I have professional history with the demotion of Pluto, which had occurred officially just three years earlier. So whether people include it or not in their tattoos is of great interest to me. I was reported to have groped her by searching up her dress, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.
I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy. That was never my intent and Im deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot. In my minds eye, Im a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to peoples personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm.
Summer 2018 Incident
While filming this past summer, I had a (female) Production Assistant assigned to me, to ensure, among her countless tasks, that every ounce of my energy was efficiently allocated to the production needs of the show. As part of this, she was also my driver, to and from the studio, ensuring that I arrive on time. In the car we would review details of the shoot and she would help me anticipate parts of the shoot to come. Across the many weeks of shooting she and I spent upwards of a hundred hours in one-on-one conversation. We became so friendly that we talked about all manner of subjects, even social-personal ones, like the care of aging parents, sibling relationships, life in high school and college, hometown hobbies, race, gender, and so forth. We also discussed less-personal topics in abundance, like rock lyrics, favorite songs in various musical genres, concert experiences, etc. And we also talked about food Im kind of a foodie, and her fiancé was a chef. In short, we had a fun, talkative friendship.
She is a talented, warm and friendly person -- excellent traits for morale on a high pressure production. Practically everyone she knows on set gets a daily welcome-hug from her. I expressly rejected each hug offered frequently during the Production. But in its place I offered a handshake, and on a few occasions, clumsily declared, If I hug you I might just want more. My intent was to express restrained but genuine affection.
In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted. In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated. Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.
Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening. She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had.
Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure. On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon. You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other persons vital spirit energy -- the pulse. Ive never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom Ive developed new friendships.
At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology. And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.
I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend.
Early 1980s
I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980. Its a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD. In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives. While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class. Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasnt there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.
I didn't see much of her after that time. Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes. A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. Thats when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school. Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.
More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name. Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school. She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.
For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets. As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember. It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesnt remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time. So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.
I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.
Overview
Im the accused, so why believe anything I say? Why believe me at all?
That brings us back to the value of an independent investigation, which FOX/NatGeo (the networks on which Cosmos and StarTalk air) announced that they will conduct. I welcome this.
Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage. Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public. I am grateful for the support Ive received from those who continue to respect and value me and my work.
Respectfully submitted, Neil deGrasse Tyson, New York City
###
https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/on-being-accused/10156870826326613/
OnDoutside
(19,948 posts)Cartoonist
(7,309 posts)He's already been tried and convicted. Even here on DU.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,104 posts)we have seen way too many of these "witch hunts". I believe him 100%
Trueblue Texan
(2,420 posts)...I also believe many of these accusations have been false to discredit the "Me too" movement.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)From what I read here, the 1984 accusation doesn't sound too credible, and the other two sound more like a weird guy rather than a sexual predator.
LBM20
(1,580 posts)Just because someone offers wine and cheese with someone he had gotten to know does that automatically mean he had other intentions? Is this where we are? People can't have innocent friendships anymore? If you offer wine and cheese that means you're weird or socially awkward? My god. It is just out of freaking control.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)First of all, he is her boss and a well-respected celebrity so this a serious power imbalance at play. When he says she "freely chose" to accept his invitation to have wine and cheese alone with him, he must realize that such a choice is not entirely free when it's a powerful celebrity boss asking a production assistant. (In fact, she has stated that "she agreed to visit because she felt pressured to impress her boss" ).
Secondly, a boss should know better than to say to a subordinate: "If I hug you I might just want more - considering the power dynamic at play, there is really no context that would make such a comment appropriate (and he admits to making that comment more than once).
Thirdly, he confirms that he offered her "a special handshake" designed to "feel the other person's vital energy" which again does not sound like something appropriate in a boss-subordinate situation (especially when they are alone together at his place).
Most significantly, he reports that she came to his office the next day and told him that she was "creeped out" by the evening and that she felt that he was trying to seduce her. He adds that he "apologized profusely" but notes that she quit the job on the spot.
She also adds that she reported the behavior to another supervisor and to the company sexual harassment hotline.
One would think that if this had been the culmination of an "innocent friendship" then she would not have felt the need to take the steps that she did the following day.
Even in his telling of the events, it seems clear that his behavior was inappropriate and caused enough distress and discomfort for this woman to speak to him about it the next day, report the behavior, and quit the job.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)was the one offering hugs. If subordinate was a man, offering hugs to female supervisors, would you view it the same way?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If someone wants to come forward and say that they felt harassed or creeped out by this woman due to her hug offers, then we can evaluate that. It does not seem that such is this case. The only person who seems to be saying they were harassed is this woman.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)So sorry, it makes no sense for you to claim that her offering to hug people don't belong in this discussion.
So bearing in mind that he says that she offered to hug people, and based on his description of the "wine and cheese" evening, do you think he behaved inappropriately at all?
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)You can make evil out of innocence.
Too bad
oberliner
(58,724 posts)To the point that she confronted him about it the next day, reported it to the relevant sexual harassment hotline, told a supervisor, and quit her job.
Also NDT himself said that he "apologized profusely" according to his own statement.
treestar
(82,383 posts)those attacks on Christine Ford's credibility were not in good faith and made by right wingers. She did not report it right away. So reporting it right away is in her favor but still does not make him immediately guilty.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Ford made an accusation of sexual assault which is much much much more serious than an accusation of workplace sexual harassment.
treestar
(82,383 posts)when we don't like the person (i.e. Kavanaugh) and don't when we do (NDT)?
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)Tthe job was over, the crew was celebrating the end of the job.
So ...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)On the production.
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)I don't see a problem with what he did.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Since he was her boss.
Clearly whatever occurred that evening made her uncomfortable enough to confront him about it the next day and warranted him "apologizing profusely" according to his statement.
She also reported the behavior to the sexual harassment hotline and spoke to a supervisor and quit the job with only a few days of the production remaining.
It seems strange that she would have taken these steps for no reason.
Beartracks
(12,801 posts)He seems to have regarded her by that time as a friend who worked for him, not as an employee with whom he was friendly. She obviously still noticed the perceived power imbalance; but perhaps it wasn't something that crossed his mind.
=======
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That seems hard to believe.
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)Not buying the helpless woman thing at all.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Who is not only your current boss but is someone who could help or hinder your career enormously.
She is certainly not helpless but was put into a difficult situation.
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Especially when, as in this case, the person is not just a supervisor in a company but a well-known and influential public figure in this woman's field of interest.
This is why I think it is generally not appropriate for a figure with that much power to invite a subordinate over for wine at their place on a one-on-one basis with no one else present.
It puts the less powerful person in the difficult situation of having to either decline the invitation, thereby potentially negatively impacting their future career, or accept the invitation and potentially be subjected to an uncomfortable situation or worse.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We are not that helpless. Good God, just decline the invitation. Then if he does something to prejudice your job, you may have something.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)He invited her for wine and cheese. She was the one driving, so she could have declined, dropped him off and left in her car. If there were any retaliation she could have reported it then. Obviously she had no problem with reporting it after she had accepted wine and cheese invitation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What if the retaliation involved him calling other people in the field and telling them not to hire her? Who would she be able to report that to? How would she even ever know that such calls took place?
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)to do so, saying I didnt want to cause a fuss.
treestar
(82,383 posts)there are cases for which it is worth "making a fuss" but not every single instance. If that level is enough, I'd have made 40 accusations by now.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I agree that it would have been better if she had.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and without sexual harassment.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's why companies have policies related to workplace relationships especially with respect to supervisors and underlings.
In this case, we are not just talking about a supervisor but a well-known and influential figure in the field whose impact could be quite far-reaching.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But don't tell me I can't say "no" when a superior asks me - if I don't want to go, I decline. Most of us can realize that by now. And given that there are same-sex relationships in the world and harassment is possible, you've just made almost any golf game or coffee into a sexual harassment case. I used to go to lunch with a paralegal all the time. Was I harassing her? I think she was the one who asked, but should I have known to decline? LOL.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not playing golf, having lunch, or drinking coffee.
sdfernando
(4,927 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Politicub
(12,165 posts)Thats such a strange remark. I wonder if he said it to his same-sex colleagues?
HuskyOffset
(888 posts)If you take it to mean "I might want more hugs", then it's pretty harmless. If you take it to mean "I might want more than a hug", then it's pretty creepy. I only know Dr Tyson from podcast & videos, and he always seemed like a big slightly goofy nerd to me. On that basis I took it to mean "I might want more hugs".
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Johnyawl
(3,205 posts)Some of us are raised with very little in the way of physical touching. I don't think I was hugged by either of my parents from the time I was a toddler until I was in my 20's. The first time I remember hugging my father was when I came home from Vietnam. The first time I remember kissing my father he was on his deathbed. When you're raised in such an environment pretty much all touching becomes sexual. All hugging seems an invitation, and is extremely awkward if it's with someone that is clearly not a potential sexual pardner.
I'm married to a woman who was raised in the opposite manner. Her family hugs all the time, when you arrive, when you leave, if you express any emotion, etc. My wife hugs everybody. She'll hug complete strangers at a Seahawks gave when we score a touchdown.
"I might want more than a hug" is something I probably have said in declining to hug an attractive young lady. Awkward, and stupid and open to misunderstanding, but at that moment I felt awkward and stupid and socially clumsy.
I'm better than I was, but it's still awkward for me, especially if the other person is young and attractive.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)So he had to reject these hugs, and it came out awkward. Maybe she should cool it with the hugs, no?
Or does that only apply to men?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)And the weird handshake.
I was inclined to believe him until I read his defense.
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)If no one else comes forward, I'm satisfied. If he really is an abuser, there will be more.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)I give him the benefit of the doubt. Just the remark sounded gross.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)In these she-accuses/he-denies situations, it's important to know more or I at least try to withhold opinion.
For instance, turned out that every one of Bill Clinton's accusers were women of demonstrably poor character, usually strongly conservative, some had connections with right-wing anti-Clinton agents, they all benefited financially, and the accounts of almost all were contradicted by witnesses. The exception to contradictory witnesses was Juanita Brodrick, whose investigation and personal accounts nevertheless resulted in swiftboater Ken Starr discarding her accusations, and her, though he's of course never revealed why.
(Wonder if we'll learn more when we finally get access to the hidden records about Kavanaugh's time with Starr's political hit squad.)
Something else to keep in mind: Tyson has been a major target the anti-science, anti-liberal right for years now. He became so popular and well liked that he threatened Big Money interests.
Btw, he's also targeted by anti-science types on the left. Go far enough toward the fringes, you run into both. Such as anti-vax, anti-pharm, anti GMO zealots who reject all science that conflicts with their convictions. He frequently refutes their beliefs, so don't be surprised if attacks come from the left also.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)That alone should give people pause. Starr was on the job to go after Bill Clinton from day one. He never had an ounce of professional or personal ethics. And, yes, he was a swiftboater.
I would also love to see any hidden records concerning the tactics that Starr and his crowd employed. But I am not sure why we should expect that this will happen. It seems like any pursuit of justice, or accountability, for the GOP thugs is off the table.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Being anti GMO is a world wide.
Burning incense at the alter of science is not an enlightened stance. Especially lumping anti vaccine and anti GMO together.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)proven, I'll abandon my previous notions. Sure, anti-GMO is worldwide, and almost everyone feels a need to be very cautious about genetic interventions, certainly not just the anti-science types.
But all the studies into adverse effects of GMOs have definitively found all those allowed into production are no worse than the natural forms they were derived from, and often much better and extremely beneficial. That's the bottom line for me, until the next variety of product and studies. I was very cautious also, but can't argue with reality. Being pro-science, I of course do absolutely want every new variant carefully studied before introduction.
Wasu, there is also very strong overlap between these science-denying groups. That's also been measured and analyzed scientifically. The GMP and vaccine movements have to be lumped together, because they lump themselves by great overlap. Commonalities include tendencies to distrust and conspiracism that override exposure to scientifically proven facts, but many others just have a tendency to prefer knowledgeable sounding sites of those who reinforce their concerns, missing those where scientists report. For the most suspicious, of course, facts themselves become proof "they" control the lies people are told. That goes for all the other anti-science, tinfoil-hat schools of thought. Belief in one is the best predictor of belief in any of the others.
That's also been studied many times and ways, measured and analyzed. Nothing is certain, but I know that, when many scientific and other organizations around the world, in and out of government, including scientists and other staff who are earnestly trying to cure disease, end famine, etc., believe something, my best choice is to trust what they believe. Some cannot.
Progressive dog
(6,899 posts)in spite of having no basis in science. Science is not based on belief.
Study lead author, Dr Heidi Larson from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, said in a statement, "It's striking that Europe stands out as the region most skeptical about vaccine safety. And, in a world where the internet means beliefs and concerns about vaccines can be shared in an instant, we should not underestimate the influence this can have on other countries around the world."
https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/09/09/france-leads-world-anti-vaccine-beliefs-10135
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)although sometimes the wrong lessons are taken. The latest ebola oubreak in fast eastern DR Congo is escaping control, even though containment teams were there immediately. I'm guessing the sort of people who distrust and reject those trying to help them, in contrast to those eager for assistance, might have at least a tendency to distrust vaccination if they lived in Beverly Hills as well. Personal tendencies to distrust and suspicion rule out over intellect.
treestar
(82,383 posts)will affect science. Gawds, they are stupid. It won't invalidate scientific findings.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Money and who gets it. But also who doesn't, like researchers.
DeGrasse's been a big voice blasting the anti- global warming lies.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)Neil appears to have apologized and is story sounds credible.
Yeah, sounds like Neil was hoping for an affair with the woman. He probably shouldnt have done that, now can he get back to his job of saving the human race please?
scipan
(2,341 posts)First, it looks like the original source for these articles is this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2018/11/two-more-women-accuse-neil-degrasse-tyson-of-sexual-misconduct/
David G. McAfee is a journalist and author of No Sacred Cows: Investigating Myths, Cults, and the Supernatural. McAfee, who writes about science, skepticism, and faith for his No Sacred Cows blog on the Patheos network, attended University of California, Santa Barbara and graduated with bachelors degrees in English and Religious Studies with an emphasis on Christianity and Mediterranean religions.
His book sounds like it's in the same vein as Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World; he advocates for using reason and the scientific method in deciding what to believe in real life. He's an atheist. So, probably not a right whinger.
The one who accused him of rape sounds like she is at least a few cards short of a full deck. Anyone can make their own determination by reading her blog?? here:
https://tchiya.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/end-the-silence-end-the-violence-chapter-6-austin-texas-1983-1984-the-blue-lotus-speaks/
short excerpts:
The ONLY way you could EVER be with a Black Goddess, a true Celestial Being, not just one that talks about them, would be by DRUGGING HER, THEN DRAGGING HER TO YOUR BEDROOM, WHILE FULLY UNCONSCIOUS, TAKING OFF HER CLOTHES, AND THEN, WHO KNOWS WHAT WITH HER, OR FOR HOW LONG, WHEN SHE AWAKENS, UNABLE TO MOVE, YOU CONTINUE YOUR DEMONIC ACTS. Is this what you mean by curiosity?...
By forcing your way into MY flower, you completely and totaled disrupted my life, the lives hoes and dreams of my parents and the people that loved and cared about me. YOU disrupted the lives of MY daughters, one of which to this day has not spoken to me in 4 years because she cannot forgive me for living with UNDIAGNOSED PTSD FOR HER ENTIRE LIFE.
The whole thing is very disjointed. I do not find her credible, although I suppose just because she's more than a little off doesn't mean he didn't do it, just that there's really no evidence, not even her words.
There seem to be a lot of Ashley Watsons and I couldn't find a match. I didn't look for Dr. Katelyn N. Allers but she should be easy to find online if she uses social media.
So it looks like the rape accusation can be thrown out and we are left with the other 2 women who were creeped out. But the only touching was him 'looking for Pluto' under the shoulder of her dress, and the Indian handshake where each feels the other's wrist pulse while looking into each other's eyes. Which probably happened. But were perceived differently by each party.
Not much there there IMO. At least so far.
scipan
(2,341 posts)This is photo of his apartment, the location of the incident ..
I guess he's the one on top??
eissa
(4,238 posts)Ive tossed away the pitchforks and await credible evidence before destroying a person. I look forward to this investigation.
FakeNoose
(32,596 posts)We also know that handsome "celebrity" men can be a lightning rod - albeit unintentionally - for stalker-type women. Sometimes the woman is willing to lie if she thinks it would lead to a payday for her. Other times, the woman is just crazy and it's all in her head. So we need to listen and discern the truth before judging an otherwise innocent man.
The "Me Too" movement has its limits, like anything else.
brush
(53,743 posts)of the table and a conversation, no touching. Makes you wonder if maybe he wasn't the one who wanted something more and was somehow upset that nothing happened?
Blecht
(3,803 posts)brush
(53,743 posts)LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)to talk about continuing to work with him.
When she found out it was a social invitation, it would be natural to be disappointed and uncomfortable; so, she left. When she confronted him about it the next day, he was apologetic.
At that point, it would be reasonable for her to feel humiliated, and decide to just leave the job immediately.
brush
(53,743 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2018, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)
in a week. Maybe she wanted to get away earlier. Nothing untoward happened at his place except maybe not getting invited to stay on.
Certainly doesn't seem like a reason to report him, or maybe it was just getting back at him for not asking her to continue on.
Seems like a minor thing since there was no sexual come on, why endanger his career?
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)and then being unable to just say "whoops". If, of course, my interpretation of what happened is anywhere close; I freely admit I could be wrong.
I agree that it wasn't a reason to report him, regardless.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)lets hope rightwing no good fucking assholes arent able to prevent him from possibly saving the human race, something he is actually capable of doing.
Amazing...
rump is credibly accused of multiple rapes and sexual assault, and you will hear NOTHING about that.
Greybnk48
(10,162 posts)rockfordfile
(8,699 posts)Farmer-Rick
(10,140 posts)Men and women can misinterpret social situations, especially if they are very busy and tired. Add in a drink or 2 and you have a recipe for attributing false motives to someone.
These accounts are nothing like Kavanaugh's and Trump's sexual attacks on women. There is no violence and excessive amounts of alcohol. Considering the number of years this covers, there are so few accusers as compared to Kavanaugh, Cosby, Trump and others.
Asking for a full investigation is very appropriate and indicates to me that he is not a monster out grabbing and raping any women he wants.
Baitball Blogger
(46,684 posts)before we boot him out of his prominent position as we did with Franken?
Sidenote: Kavanaugh never had a real investigation. The Republicans Kabuki danced their way through that one, so he's still fair game.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)Kavanaugh was guilty. Deberoh Ramirez was almost completely ignored.
Luka Boyd
(49 posts)THIS is how people act that have nothing to hide
Vinca
(50,237 posts)mac56
(17,564 posts)calimary
(81,126 posts)Hey Senator Gillibrand, youre running behind on your pile-on here.
BannonsLiver
(16,313 posts)So while Im sure shes already convicted NGT (she has made it clear facts and due process do not matter in cases like this, only the accusations) he was/is no threat to her ambitions.
Totally.
Bengus81
(6,928 posts)thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)...and so what if it was? Is it now unacceptable to express romantic interest in someone, with no sexually suggestive conversation, or inappropriate touching? With someone who will no longer be in your employ within a few days anyway, so there's no possible suggestion of quid pro quo for keeping their job?
LisaL
(44,972 posts)But honestly, what's the big deal here?
Doesn't even look like made any actual seduction attempts here, if what he says is the truth. She sat across the table and presumably had some wine and cheese.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Does that really need to be explained?
Im not taking any sides here, just replying to your post about seduction.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)He claims she was sitting across from him and they had wine and cheese, and a conversation similar to the ones they had before.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)about trying to seduce someone. Its a big deal if its your boss. Thats all.
Not saying it happened or didnt happen.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)I have seen it happen quite a few times.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)or not.
But of course it still happens.
thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)Yavin4
(35,421 posts)Using your logic.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)He was acquitted on both articles of impeachment.
Yavin4
(35,421 posts)No?
usaf-vet
(6,163 posts)and they don't agree with the ideology of the powerful ultra-conservative right in this country. You become a target to destroy. In Neil DeGrasse's case he is a strong defender of science and a fact based world.
He is often seen on current event panels. His outspokenness has paint a target on his back.
Think of Senator Franken and Attorney Avenatti in recent months. Both have been targeted for their willingness to speak truth to power.
And yes stay clear of Senator Gillibrand she seems to be willing to ignore the "you are innocent until proven guilty". In Franken's case IMO she saw him as a likely 2020 Presidential candidate and again IMO she has her sights set on a run for that office.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)vs. "one of theirs", e.g. Kavanaugh, are unequal.
That supposed progressives do not see a problem in this is worrying.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)of. Off with their heads. Is that progressive enough for you?
Tarc
(10,472 posts)Good to see you're catching on. Finally.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)To make it clear what I think.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)Guess I need a :ridicule: smile.
demigoddess
(6,640 posts)with making a simple invitation, which could be declined. And wasn't she driving the car? which meant that she wasn't "trapped". Like in a room with guys at the door. I am with Neil deGrasse Tyson any day.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)Of course, he just put it out, so they haven't had time to respond. But it is entirely possible that they will agree with his description of events.
Cartoonist
(7,309 posts)Kav was charged with physical assault.
Al was charged for a photograph.
Neil is charged for turning down a hug.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)Oh, wait.
You don't get to do that.
Cartoonist
(7,309 posts)You don't see a difference?
treestar
(82,383 posts)The Kavanaugh one was far more serious.
dsc
(52,152 posts)wait to see what investigations yield. I think that is what should happen with all of these. To take one example where I actually defended an accused conservative, George HW Bush. I said in real time that I felt this was likely part of dementia or Parkinsons and not him actually groping knowingly.
Nitram
(22,768 posts)I felt the same way about Al Franken's response to the allegations against him. We will never know for sure I suppose, but I believe them both. I absolutely don't believe Tyson drugged and raped anyone.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Coventina
(27,064 posts)I think the wine and cheese incident was his way of signaling her to make a move IF she was interested.
She didn't, and he didn't do anything inappropriate. (according to his version of events)
She might have been "weirded out" by it, because she was picking up on his vibes. It was just one of those awkward situations when one person is interested and the other is not.
Just my take...
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Sounds like he liked her and signaled it to her, when their supervisor/subordinate relationship was about to be over. but she wasn't into it.
So off with his head.
Coventina
(27,064 posts)(assuming our take is the correct one)
I don't see that he did anything wrong.
on edit: typo
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)That should have been the end of it.
Coventina
(27,064 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,148 posts)Did he cross the line, considering he was her boss? Maybe.
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/02/672643776/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-claims-of-sexual-harassment
"She says that on May 16, as the show was just about to wrap up production, Tyson invited her to join him in his apartment for wine in the evening after work.
Watson tells NPR that she went because she thought he wanted to talk about her continuing to work as his assistant when the show moved on to filming in Europe.
Instead, she says, he put on music by Nina Simone, opened wine and began pulling cheese from the fridge. She recalls that he had taken off his shoes and was wearing a tank top. "I remember thinking, 'This is a lot of skin for me to be seeing on my boss,' " Watson says. "The vibe was just kind of weird." She says Tyson spoke about the stresses of his job and how he needed a "release.""
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)She thought it was business. He thought it was social.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,148 posts)Add to that, if we are to believe NDT, that she's a big "hugger", and even offered a hug as she left after quitting her job. Men can be clueless and interpret an expression of platonic affection as something more, but women that don't realize this are pretty clueless too, IMHO. Maybe it's just an age and experience thing. I'm 61. It didn't take me too long to learn, when I was in my 20s, that things like hugs and touches can be misinterpreted, SO I DIDN'T DO THEM.
I struck up a friendship with a man my father's age when I was in my 30s and he was in his late 50s, early 60s. We were in a support group and liked to go to IHOP after meetings. After we did this for a couple of months, I started feeling a little worried and I let him know that I just liked him as a friend. He said he knew I wasn't interested in him "that way" and it was fine. But I was aware that just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't fire in the furnace. I think NDT, being a red blooded American man with a healthy ego (perhaps too healthy) might have thought that she was interested romantically. Being her boss, he waited until their time working together was almost over and then made a subtle, and unsuccessful, attempt to gauge her interest. They just weren't on the same page.
brush
(53,743 posts)Coventina
(27,064 posts)Interesting.
That would make sense in light of her insisting on hugging him repeatedly.
brush
(53,743 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I won't go into the details as to why. But there's something about each of these that doesn't sit well with me.
I'm getting sort of tired of the "me, too" movement at this point. There has been ample time for people to come forward before now. There has been a national "me, too" movement for many months, now. Not that I wouldn't believe an accusation that was strong and had other authority behind it, or that there is a reason to bring it forward at this time (like Kavanaugh being apptd for the Supreme Court).
I say this as a prior "me, too" victim, myself. Throughout the me, too movement, I, like many others, talked about most of the times I was victimized. So I get why people don't report it or talk about it at the time.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Tired of the MeToo movement?
As a fellow victim, I urge you to reconsider those words.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)When you're talking about these sorts of accusations, which are iffy to begin with (he looked at her tattoo on her arm, even pushing the strap on her sleeveless dress a bit to see the end of it? Seriously?), I think it's odd. Everyone has been coming forward for many months. But not these women. These women know full well what it might do to his career. There's no good reason for it. It's not like the Kavanaugh situation, where there is a good reason to come forward 35 years later. Or Charlie Rose, where he stripped naked and walked around his house in front of someone he didn't know well but had hired.
The accuser of DeGrasse from several years ago is different. And she reported it several years ago.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)I have to back out of this conversation, sorry.
Just cant.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It's pointless to try to get me to change my mind, unless something really egregious (what I would call sexual harassment) comes forward. I don't consider these three incidents to be sexual harassment, unless something was left out of what I read.
They remind me of the Franken accusations: I asked him to take a pic with me. He agreed, and leaned in and smiled and grabbed a hunk of flesh on my waist! That's not sexual harassment at all, IMO.
As I said, the incident from several years ago is different. It was reported several years ago.
albacore
(2,398 posts)..the explanation that requires the least speculation is usually better.
NDeGT is a liberal, an evolutionist, and an atheist. He has a lot of enemies who would smear him and his causes, and those enemies have proven that they will lie.
Barring further evidence, the simplest explanation is that this is a political assassination.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)h/t Jarqui.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)no.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Yuck.
Not to mention the other incident, with if I hug you, I might want more.
Yuck, no.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Seriously. I'm virtually inured to shock value, but your comments are disturbing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)not "creeping his fingers up her arm."
Wouldn't most people jerk their arm away? Like right away, if that were the case?
BannonsLiver
(16,313 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Hekate
(90,564 posts)I hope the court of public opinion won't make the same mistake with Professor Neil deGrasse Tyson.
moreland01
(736 posts)Get over yourselves! Nothing of what I read shows him as lecherous, solicitous or even grabby or worthy of any kind of sexual assault accusations. Good freaking grief! I remember a guy once who wrote me an email that said "I had a dream about you. Do you want me to tell you about? It's kind of graphic." I said "No, I'd rather not." and we moved on. If he were to be in the public eye, I guarantee you this would never be brought up by me. Nor would the other dozens of times a guy has said "Nice dress" or looked at my breasts while I was talking. Same with Al Franken. Leave them the freak alone. Hold your anger for the bosses who actually base an employees success/failure on whether or not they sleep with him/her. Hold your anger for the actual assaults, actual discrimination, actual misconduct, actual raping and/or drugging. There are some serious creeps out there and Al Franken and Neil Tyson are not two of them.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,148 posts)Granted, I'm 61. NDT is 60. I won't say the things NDT did meant nothing, but they don't mean EVERYTHING. Humans are highly individual sexual beings. They are sensitive to different things. What creeps out one person wouldn't another.
In the 2009 incident, if NDT got a little handsy with her shoulder, it's still her shoulder.
I don't know what to make of the rape allegation from the 80s. I read the woman's blog and it seems pretty out there.
The most recent incident with the assistant is more problematic. The coverage from NPR goes into some detail that I hadn't read elsewhere. If it happened as she described, I do think he was interested in her and was, perhaps, trying to gauge her interest.
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/02/672643776/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-claims-of-sexual-harassment
He declined a hug in a creepy way? Why does the woman repeatedly offers to hug him (at least that's what he claims?) If a man was repeatedly offering to hug someone and repeatedly declined, people wouldn't have the same reaction, I bet.
luvs2sing
(2,220 posts)happy feet
(864 posts)Beakybird
(3,331 posts)All but one are women who've made a career in science. No reason for them to go out on the limb.
I love Tyson. This would be tragic as he is a great defender of science and truth.
Horrible news.
BannonsLiver
(16,313 posts)Theres something about it, that its so neat and coordinated gives me pause. Also, he has a lot of people on the far right who hate him. We have seen the lengths that scum is willing to go to to destroy careers. After the Franken deal Ill never take allegations like these at face value again. Sad, but its the way it has to be.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they have no credible argument against a subject, so they go for ad hominem.
treestar
(82,383 posts)All stupid things of misunderstanding or later exaggeration. Not exactly the pussy grabbing of the right.
Hav
(5,969 posts)is the most severe and the most far back in the past. It seems to be about an event the alleged victim cannot remember which will probably make an investigation and coming to a definite conclusion harder.
The other incidents are of an awkward nature but not even close to the severe accusation. The last incident should have been over when she raised that point in person to him and he apologized for making her uncomfortable. She accepted the invitation, he was the one who repeatedly denied her requests for physical contact. If the roles were reversed and he repeatedly asked to be hugged, I suppose that would have been another accusation against him as well. I can believe that the dinner might have been awkward for her, but that doesn't make it a me too incident.
Similarly, though not as crazy, that deranged person who accused Franken because she was reminded of that fat on her hip, wasn't one either.
dalton99a
(81,406 posts)DiverDave
(4,886 posts)Are accused?
This stinks. NDT seems an honorable man.
I think its for a payday.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Which national news network is going to cover accusations of this nature that are made against Joe the Plumber (before he becames famous as Joe the Plumber)?
It isn't that accusations like this are only made against people with money/power - it is that when accusations like this are made against people without money/power, they don't hit the news.
Because of my position, I know of two within the last year where I work - neither were against people with money or power.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Revanchist
(1,375 posts)Even if I ever get back in a right mindset to enter the dating pool again I'm not sure if it is going to be worth the hassle
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)I limit my alone time with women who are not related or close friends I've known for years.
As a manager I always left the door open or had a female assistant manager in the room when talking to a female employee/interviewee.
Nothing personal, it's all about CYA.
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)I would try to never be alone with a woman who was not my wife or girlfriend. And if I was a male celebrity and was assigned a woman as a personal assistant by a production company, or whatever, Id put the kibosh on that, pronto!
I like deGrasse Tyson so Im hoping nothing comes of these accusations; his denials are very credible.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)False accusations are fucking rare. 1 in 4 women experience sexual assault.
MRAs and incels would try to make you believe otherwise.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is because he is famous. I could see avoiding those who work for you directly because of this sort of thing, but not women generally. Pence is overdoing it as a way of protesting anyone getting to say anything.
Polybius
(15,336 posts)Unless more evidence comes out, his response is good enough for me.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Nothing illegal happened that can be proven, nobody is asking for money or for him to get jail time, it's just his word against theirs and we all have to make a decision in this case about whether we believe him or her.
His descriptions of the events ring true with a handful of events in all of our lives that we could point to where someone probably got the wrong idea about something that was said or done, either by us or by them, but they don't appear to have been blatantly nefarious, just a different viewpoint on what happened and what the intentions were.
I'm definitely with Neil here and appreciate him coming forward and addressing these rumors quickly and directly.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Creepy. Sorry, Ive heard that line.
Its creepy.
Hav
(5,969 posts)despite being declined every time?
LisaL
(44,972 posts)I mean, come on. I understand some people are more inclined to hug people than others (I am not one of those people). But once you offer a hug, and person declines, that should be it.
rockfordfile
(8,699 posts)To me a person that just goes up to a stranger and hugs has mental issues.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)But once you offer a hug, and the person declines, one would think you should stop offering to hug that person.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Her future colleagues aren't all going to appreciate the touchy-feely informality.
luvs2sing
(2,220 posts)Bettie
(16,076 posts)when someone's mom died and they found out at work, I was there and hugged her.
When a person I worked closely with was leaving the company, I hugged him on his last day after helping him carry some stuff to the car.
There were a few other times, with similar situations to these, but I knew no one who went around randomly hugging people or for whom it was a standard hello/goodbye thing.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Although, less expected if you're opposite gender than if you're same-gender ... somewhat interestingly.
treestar
(82,383 posts)is "creepy" enough for that?
BannonsLiver
(16,313 posts)Ive seen this movie before and spoiler alert, it sucks.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)And famous people become targets for no reason.
If no one can produce any evidence of wrong-doing, or any damaging results, then whether or not he was ever out of line, it's simply not actionable.
Personally, I'd trust him, knowing what I see of him in the media.
We also don't know if the old girlfriend attempted to extort him or not. That's another old game.
There may be lots of information we don't have, but by putting the story out there himself, he cannot be extorted. Unless there is more, and I seriously doubt that.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)As a fan of both Neil deGrasse Tyson and Morgan Freeman this week has been brutal.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)I'm going to have to take some time, and see what else develops, before I decide if I do or don't.
unblock
(52,126 posts)*any* sexual harassment is wrong.
*any* misuse of power or relationship imbalance is wrong.
That said, the concept of justice is full of crimes of various severity, based of intent or level of damage, etc.
There has to be various levels of punishment accordingly. Not always "career over".
In this case, it sounds to me like Tyson has been undeniably in the wrong, but didn't have the same evil intent that many other harassers have had. He sounds more oblivious of such situations than knowingly taking advantage of them. That does *not* make what he did ok, he gen if we take him at his word, but it does make it a less severe offense.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)I honestly don't find this credible; frankly I don't even find her to be rational:
https://tchiya.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/end-the-silence-end-the-violence-chapter-6-austin-texas-1983-1984-the-blue-lotus-speaks/
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Wtf
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)should be treated with the respect of giving them a fair and thorough investigation. Don't Franken this man please!
peggysue2
(10,823 posts)The MeToo movement was long overdue. Women's voices need to be heard, not summarily dismissed/discounted as has been the habit for eons.
However, if we turn the MeToo Movement into the MeOnly Movement then women cripple themselves by simply doing unto others what was traditionally done unto us.
That never works well and ultimately damages the original call for social change.
If an accused individual welcomes an independent investigation, is willing to be investigated, evaluated and judged objectively, then that's the best of all worlds.
I think we're naive not to consider that every movement/social shift isn't vulnerable to highjack techniques, chaos agents that will use a movement's sensibility for their own purposes. Al Franken is a case in point, a political hit job that many were far too quick to make instant judgments about or rationalize Franken's dismissal for political expediency.
Let's hope that that's not the case here.
Everyone should have a voice and everyone should be heard in these cases. Otherwise the change that most women want and demand will be strangled in the crib.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)Lokilooney
(322 posts)It's important that one remain innocent until proven guilty, without that we just have pitchfork waving anarchy. Now from a personal prospective things get a little bit squishy and it's obvious certain people seem to take certain allegations differently based on certain leanings.
Again, I try to stay personally detached but can anyone tell me why 3 allegations some of them recent should be taken either more or less seriously than lets say a single one 35 years ago supposedly at a high school party that no one can independently corroborate that comes out of no ware during a highly politicized confirmation hearing?
On a personal note I like the guy and have enjoyed many various Youtube videos of him, especially when he talks about critical thinking rather than what he's known for which is rather esoteric to most, he seems to know this and doesn't brow-beat. One of my favorite anecdotes he tells is a couple of jury duty stories.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)I do not condone sexual abuse. I also do not condone people over-analyzing a situation until it turns into something far more than it actually was. This is something we, as a society, have become guilty of doing lately.
The photo-op explanation sounds very much like like one of the same sorts of situations of which Al Franken was accused. At this point, I would think all celebrities would stop doing them.
As for his assistant, if all the facts are as he says. He sat across the table from her, wine and cheese is a common practice of his with guests of all genders then, it is entirely possible a young, inexperienced, impressionable, person interpreted things incorrectly. We all do that when we are young.
The accusation from the 1980s is a tough one. If I am to defend Dr. Ford for not coming forward at the time I have to leave open the possibility this woman is telling the truth. The accusation and his history of actions at the time will be very relevant. The investigation needs to be done and ascertain whether or not he was likely or not likely to have behaved improperly. We found more than enough evidence to convince that Kavahaugh was the sort of cretin who would perform the acts of which he was accused. I will be waiting to see what history has to say of DeGrasse-Tyson
LisaL
(44,972 posts)I just don't understand what you think any investigation could possibly show?
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)is whether he improperly influenced a subordinate.
Even if we accept her account completely, at the most he's guilty of suggestive behavior; she was free to leave when she decided to, and in no way did he assault her, or threaten her position, which was ending in a very short time.
There is a detail from the Washington Post which is not in the Patheos piece:
"In an interview with The Post, Watson described an uncomfortable night with Tyson in May 2018. She had been working as his assistant on the Santa Fe set of Cosmos for several months and was hoping that Tyson would ask her to continue working for him when production moved to Europe." She hoped this, despite the fact that she later claimed, according to the Patheos piece, that he frequently made misogynistic comments.
So, putting everything together, my take is that the production, and with it his authority over her, were ending, and he asked her over. He thought was a social get together because the job was winding down, whereas she though they were going to talk about future employment. When that turned out not to be the case, she got creeped out.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)We saw that an actual investigation of Brett Kavanaugh would have turned up a lot of circumstantial evidence. Evidence that would show his behaviors during the time he was accused were consistent with being an attacker and someone who would likely have committed the act of which Dr. Ford accused him.
As a graduate student at the time of the accusation, DeGrasse-Tyson would have interacted with hundreds of female students. He was probably a teaching assistant so he would have had power over those students. Were he at all inclined to either use that power over the students to sexually assault or to go so far as to drug and rape there will be other students with similar stories. A real investigation that sought out his students from that time would be a good indicator of whether or not the allegations are true. It could bring forward other women who were abused or it could clear his name with reasonable certainty by the complete absence of any other alleged incidents.
I don't really like the tone of your putting "investigation" into quotes as if such a thing is not possible all the years later. As if I'm ridiculous for suggesting such a thing can happen and be fair. It really makes it look like you've found him guilty without any evidence.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Multiple accusers-- BOOM! Why now? Why not some other time? Is there anyone besides the women involved in rolling out these accusations, at this particular time?
This reeks of the Franken hit. Political motivation. Sullies the individual's name, undercuts his/her ability to live a publicly visible life (and to earn a living) without a negative association.
If it turns out that NdT was in fact involved in sexual misconduct, then he deserves punishment. But the accusers and their attorneys should be forthcoming with more details.
Mike Nelson
(9,944 posts)
sounds like he had developed a friendship with her he was going to miss - it often happens when you have limited assignments and are not going to see someone who was a regular in your life...
there may have been something "more" (a sexual attraction) on either or both of their parts and I can see how both acted in ways that may have been "signals" - but nothing happened.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And why did he "apologize profusely" ? She also felt the need to report the incident to the relevant sexual harassment hotline, tell another supervisor about what occurred, and quit the job even though there were only a few days remaining. That seems to indicate that it wasn't nothing.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Does it not to you?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Does it not to you?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Hence the importance of an outside investigation to further evaluate the relative plausibility of the claims.
Mike Nelson
(9,944 posts)
in saying "nothing happened" was that there was, according to what I read, no sex. It's entirely possibly there was a sexual relationship or even a sexual assault - I'm just trying to put their two stories together. She was uncomfortable and he apologized - so, "something" obviously was wrong and both show that in their recollections of the evening. I do see your point, I and agree with you that sexual harassment is not "nothing." These accusations need to be looked at more closely
I would this like this woman to continue speaking out - and take legal action, if possible. As it stands now, I'm not convinced a crime was committed
Lastly, I'll try to avoid phrases like "nothing happened" when relating whether or not a sex at took place.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)She is not claiming anything beyond that.
With that in mind, it sounds like we are on the same page.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Their working relationship was ending; he invited her over socially, while she thought they were going to talk about her continuing to work for him.
She got creeped out, and left. She told him so the next day, and he apologized.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And aligns with my assessment of the situation - which is that he behaved inappropriately (and apologized for it).
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)a complete misunderstanding.
And, if we accept his statement that she repeatedly tried to hug him along with coworkers (which is inappropriate on her part, IMO) and he refused, then it supports the notion that he tried to keep thing professional until their working relationship was about to end. He thought she each being friendly, she thought he wanted to talk shop.
I do understand that this won't convince you, of course; you've made it quite clear that you think his gonads should be cut off and run up the flagpole.
But, in the final analysis, he didn't do anything but make her uncomfortable, and she left; and it is more than plausible that her discomfort was completely due to a simple misunderstanding, for which he apologized.
No matter how you try and make it worse than that, the facts simply don't support it, and you seem more concerned with proving yourself right than objectively considering the particulars of the event.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I definitely do not "think his gonads should be cut off and run up the flagpole". I think that networks who want to give him his own TV show ought to take the claims of this woman into consideration as they are making that decision.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)from both sides, in the most egregious light towards Tyson, up to and including trying to portray his apology as an admission of wrongdoing.
You have clearly convicted him in your mind. If you think haven't, then I submit that you are expressing yourself poorly, as I believe any objective reading of your posts supports the conclusion that you have.
treestar
(82,383 posts)as if he should have apologized. Apologizing does not mean what he did was illegal. It just means he felt bad for her that she felt bad in an awkward situation.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think it is a recognition that he felt that he did something for which he believed he should apologize.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)betsuni
(25,380 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)And don't have a different standard for when accusation are made against people you like vs. people you don't like.
betsuni
(25,380 posts)What is this "like" you speak of? Facts are facts. "Like" has nothing to do with it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So they might be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
treestar
(82,383 posts)charge or not?
Christine Ford was credible in spite of the passage of time, and her accusation was very serious, someone trying to rape her, holding her down. This Native American handshake story is not like that.
And right wingers are more likely to use what they perceive as their male privilege and power. That is based on their view of the world. It is not a surprise that their accusations are more serious and more credible.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)With respect to the Native American handshake story, there is no accusation of sexual assault being made - just sexual harassment so it is not akin to Christine Ford.
There is a woman who has accused NDT of raping her in college.
I disagree that right wingers are more likely to use their male privilege and power based on their view of the world.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)NT
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)It's a pretty common creeper approach -- framing unwanted touch in an innocuous or seemingly desirable way that both is easily deniable ("Oh, it's just a handshake! And I got it from a NATIVE AMERICAN) and makes the recipient uncertain about their own perceptions.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,148 posts)because my guess is he doesn't. Nevertheless, I think she overreacted and I wonder if there is someone from the right behind it.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,309 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,148 posts)He has a healthy ego, maybe too healthy. As a woman close to his age, I think he's a pretty sexy dude. My guess is that he's used to women flirting with him. Maybe he thought the assistant had been flirting with him. I don't look at his behavior as creepy as much as just something men do. We don't even know if anything would have come of it if she'd been receptive. Sometimes it's just fun to flirt.
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)with whom Ive developed new friendships. "
Since he says "people", and not "women" why would you guess he doesn't offer it to men?
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Way Im reading it, aside from the rape charge is he is one of those guys who is horribly awkward at flirting. This can be endearing or creepy. He lands on the creepy side.
The rape charge is far more serious and I agree that it needs to be investigated. Hopefully he gets his full investigation. His response is kind of awkward as well though, and kind of creepy.