Now that we have Russian collusion established, they RIGGED VOTES TOO

[Baltimike]

The election of 2016 was not a free and fair election in our democracy.

[Funtatlaguy]

1. This would take a first person whistleblower to be believed.

You can site people who say this is somewhat easy to accomplish.
Investigator Greg Palast has tons of info on it that you can google.
A group at Kennesaw State University in Georgia has also looked at it.

However, I believe it will take an actual person who did this to come forward.
Someone who had the opportunity and capability to change votes in actual precincts would have to explain how they did it.
Otherwise, it will always just be considered left wing conspiracy theories.

[Baltimike]

2. No...it might take a 1st person whistle blower to be PROVEN,

but believed? We know they did it

[triron]

20. Agree 100%

Exit poll analysis shows it happened.

[ananda]

23. Exactly.

When the votes and polls are too far apart..
well, you know it was fixed.

[Eyeball_Kid]

35. Yes, Russian "collusion" is established, but that's because of corroborated evidence.

Your claim that Russia altered the vote is not corroborated. Yes, I "believe" that it's true, but I cannot assert it as if it were fact. And, IMO, neither should you.

My guess is that, in less than two years, it WILL be corroborated. It frankly pisses me off that the IC continues to "protect" the citizenry from the reality that Russians and other can and did alter the votes. Intuitively, it makes sense that, if Russian hackers breached the integrity of the voting process, and they had the ability to alter the votes, then they did, if only because they could. But I must return again to the issue of what is established fact and what is opinion. We are expressing an opinion about the hacking of the vote. Asserting it as if it were fact is a mistake.

[triron]

52. I don't think it will be corroborated. It is verboten by the powers that be.

[Maine-i-acs]

5. Clinton Curtis, please Google his testimony

was paid to write code that could flip votes in the tabulator and not leave a trace.
testified to CBC iirc, on camera
used in Georgia and Florida machines, suspected of flipping Senate votes away from Max Cleland

[Baltimike]

7. Wow. I'd never heard of this. Thank you. nt

[beachbum bob]

3. No...the Russian part was to breed dissent among democrats, which they

did. No vote rigging...going to the conspiracy well helps no one. Stein voters gave trump the victory.

[Baltimike]

8. Less than 100k votes in 3 states with confirmed foreign intervention is no longer a theory

although I will agree with you about the conspiracy part.

edit: typo

[Eyeball_Kid]

37. Perhaps over a half dozen major factors can be blamed for Trumpy's victory.

Stein voters became a factor, not THE determining factor. Not all Stein voters would have gone Democratic if Stein withdrew, or if she never ran in the first place. A lot of people vote for candidates for reasons only PeeWee Herman can determine. So we really don't know. What we do know is that Trumpy is the worst president in US history, and is likely a traitor to his own country, and that no one comes in a close second.

[zaj]

4. I just served on a jury for this post...

I think we need to add an optional comment section when voting, and make a log of the votes and comments public for us all to read.

Here's my thoughts.

Here's the rule it was reported under:

No kooky, extremist, or hate content
Do not promote ridiculous, bigoted, or extreme-fringe conspiracy theories. Do not promote extreme fringe views. Do not reference hate sites or other extremist/fringe sources.

Why we have this rule: Democrats are supposed to be part of the "reality-based community." Some amount of skepticism toward powerful institutions is healthy and appropriate, but that doesn't mean every paranoid fantasy is true. Posts about mass shootings being "false flag" operations, 9/11 being a controlled demolition, no airplane at the Pentagon, chemtrails, black helicopters, the Illuminati, or other nonsense make us all look like fools. This website may have the word "underground" in our name, but we are not extreme fringe.

Two years ago, I would have 100% voted this as a violation for being a fringe conspiracy theory. Even 2 weeks ago, I would have been close to voting the same.

But as we watch 2 years worth of the unravelling of the grand Trump conspiracy, this isn't a huge leap. It's within the realm of possible now. Sadly, this isn't as extremist as it once was.

And now, with the possible/likely tampering with votes by the GOP in the North Carolina congressional mid-term election, it's even closer to reality.

We shoudn't block this type of discussion anymore, sadly.

I think we as activist Dems on a high profile message board have a duty to treat this possilble fraud with the seriousness it deserves. That means to speak out about it... as the poster did. But with reflection and measured launguage that the poster did not.

[Baltimike]

6. Thank you for this. I think that there are people alerting on this shows a lot

about them and their motives. For me, I walk in the truth. Unvarnished.

Yes, I *will* tell you if you look fat in that dress. Why ask if you don't want to know?

I've been doing these rodeos since 1986. I *know* when the fucking fix is in...and deep down...there are scores of others who just *know* it too...if they're honest.

[zaj]

9. When posting this sort of opinion, I believe you have a responsibility to...

Speak about it more thoughtfully than you did.

These extraordinary claims require extraordinary care. It would help to post this as a question, rather than assert the matter as a fact. And then call upon us to search for the truth of the question.

Even if you *feel* it's a fact, it's not (yet?) a fact.

And the form that the "rigging" takes place, can come in all sorts of forms. What forms? What facts?

It becomes less Kooky and more actionable if the tone is right.

JMHO.

[Baltimike]

12. I appreciate your concern

but I'm just not that fancy. But thanks, though. I do appreciate it.

[ancianita]

22. As with disarmanent's "trust but verify," so it is with election fraud: "Know but prove."

[bearsfootball516]

11. You say you walk in with the truth, but provide no evidence of your claim.

We know that Russia ran a massive disinformation campaign, and it worked. But to this point, there’s been no proof that votes were actually changed at the polls.

If you’re going to make a claim like that, you have to have proof to back it up.

[Baltimike]

14. For me to be truthful, I need to *submit* something to you?

Do the votes need to be changed at the polls, or do they just need to block some from being tabulated? See how they're not the same thing? Long voting lines is yet another way. Broken voting machines, yet another. Why would they limit themselves to "switching"? Why do I have to pigeon hole it to appease you, or anybody? I didn't say "switched". I said RIGGED. There's a BFD

[bearsfootball516]

18. That would work, sure.

But you’d still have to prove that it was Russia that broke the voting machines, created the long lines, instead of the regular, run-of-the-mill voter suppression tactics the GOP always uses.

[Baltimike]

33. No, I don't have to prove Russia rigged the machines...goal post move much?

The election of 2016 was not free and fair.

I don't have to prove RUSSIA did it. It's bizarre that you think you can impose that on me

[bearsfootball516]

39. Didn't move at all. You claim it was rigged, and provided no evidence.

I'm asking you to provide some, ANY evidence. You refuse to do so.

[Baltimike]

41. No, you said I needed to prove RUSSIA did it

please read YOUR OWN words. Thanks.

[bearsfootball516]

42. Fair enough, you need to prove Russia did it.

We know about the massive disinformation campaign.

However, you've made your claims and made no attempt to actually prove them as true.

The first rule when making an argument is making your statement, then providing evidence. You haven't done that.

[Baltimike]

43. No I don't. See how tidy brevity can be?

You're welcome. To say "we know about the massive disinformation campaign" but "jump through this hoop to appease me" just ain't gonna happen

[ancianita]

24. There's "belief truth" and scientific truth. Which one gets national credibility to prove "rigged."

[Baltimike]

34. and then there's the plain truth...which I posted. You're welcome. nt

[ancianita]

36. Haha. Cute.

[Funtatlaguy]

13. In my heart I think u r right

But most of the country will never believe it without a first hand confession. IMHO

[Baltimike]

17. on this, we agree...

but you KNOW they did it. I just had to get it out of my system...as this drips out, slowly but surely, and those drops accumulate, the bucket gets heavier, and I needed to vent.

[hurple]

15. I have been looking at the Fact-based evidence

since the day after the 2016 election, and am 100% convinced that vote totals were changed by remote hacking, after the votes were counted and as they were transmitted to the capital for certification.

Easy-peasy to do. Set up a bot to capture and re-route the transmission, make the change, and send it to where it was supposed to go originally. This is done ALL THE TIME by hackers to steal a person's personal details. This is not a conspiracy theory, it is an everyday occurrence and something I'm absolutely sure "professional" hackers, employed by their government, could do without blinking an eye.

Vote totals WERE changed in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, for sure. It looks like Florida and Ohio were hit too, but not enough solid evidence to call those.

And I've been saying this since summer 2017, a lot, right here on DU. And, I have never, not once, not ever, had a post where I did so flagged for a jury... So why was this one singled out for bullying?

[Baltimike]

16. WOW!!!

I am going to go have some beers and watch football.

I feel a little disgusted right now.

[better]

30. Yeah at this point, I'm pulling the fire alarm.

There is absolutely zero tolerable justification for alerting this OP, period, and that we are seeing posts this clearly within bounds being alerted upon is a flashing red light.

"The earth revolves around the sun" was once an unproven "fringe conspiracy theory", met with considerable rejection.
As was, we should all recognize, russia/trump campaign collusion, just two short years ago.

I, for one, am profoundly worried by seeing a statement like "The election of 2016 was not a free and fair election in our democracy", of which there is plentiful evidence, both direct and circumstantial, treated even remotely similar to something like "Democrats are running a pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor basement, because Alex Jones says so".

[Baltimike]

44. every. last. word. of. this. Unreal.

[duforsure]

10. It could be possible they have proof

The election was rigged for trump , and his election therefore is illegitimate , and everything he did would be illegal and reversed.

[Power 2 the People]

19. Republicans have been rigging the voting machines and results for years

Combine the usual Republican cheating with propaganda from a foreign power and you get Donald Trump and Republican majorities.

[Botany]

25. Russ Feingold was @ 90% chance of winning back his seat in the senate in 2016.

Ever since HAVA we have seen a "red state shift" in voting despite the demographics
and the issues have been against the republicans.

[Baltimike]

45. I honestly thought something was up with that...

like Scott Walker's recall was the precursor for their tricks.

[Power 2 the People]

48. Exactly! Here's an article explaining the phenomenon

[link:https://www.electiondefense.org/how-to-part-eleven/|]

[MichMan]

55. Yes and 90% isn't 100%

A 90% chance of winning doesn't mean he can't lose

[triron]

21. I see the naysayers are out in force today.

[Ford_Prefect]

28. To some minds no hanging chads to observe equals nothing happened.

The same folks in good faith are not able to see the possibility of other kinds of intervention in the local or aggregate counting. The possibility that the form of the 2000 Florida ballot had been designed to generate the kind of confusion and results which it did, or that it was made to allow, along with numerous other practices, the sleights of hand which gave W the win in circumstances which argued that he should not have.

It never was only ONE practice which gave the 2016 White House and many other races to the party of NO! It was certainly not politics as usual, regardless of party stalwarts and mainstream media apologist attempts to lamely normalize the outcome. The results came from a coordinated program of activities: some were Russian, and some were domestic.

We may yet hear the details of the Russian operations which took place. We are more likely to find the tracks of Republican operatives engaged in similar practices. I have no doubt that having complete control of the process lends itself to invisible abuse. The results in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan serve as reminders.

[elmac]

26. Ike was the last, true elected repug. Nixon, Reagan got elected by committing treason

Bush Sr seems to have been elected with the help of typical dirty politicking and gerrymandering so I think he gets a little pass, bush jr got elected by voter suppression and the supreme court. Little hands got elected by treason, criminal enterprise, RICO violations, voter suppression and who knows what else.

[brush]

32. Yep, Ike was the last one and he'd be a centrist Dem today. See quote below.

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

[Pepsidog]

27. Bingo

[Hoyt]

29. While Ruskies helped with lies, voters believed the BS. They are to blame.

Although it could happen, don’t believe votes were hacked.

Some folks believe they were hacked against Democrats for years. Although, they can’t explain how Obama won. If there were ever elections white wingers would kill to fix, 2008 and 2012 were the ones.

Do believe in suppression and swiftboating, Comey, and lies.

[Iggo]

31. Americans knowingly and with eyes open helped the Russians subvert our election process.

People named Trump and Manafort and Mattis and Cohen and Papadopoulos and Gates and Flynn and Nunes and Rohrbacher and many many more.

Americans did this.

[Eyeball_Kid]

38. The people you mentioned softened the perception of Russia as an adversary with friendly potential.

That's always been very far from the truth. Russia and Putin have, for decades, been hellbent on controlling the US and its sphere of influence. They have, to some degree, succeeded. Trumpy has worked as Putin's agent and promoted all things Russia. Now, because of his inability to play both sides against the middle, influential Russians are just now beginning to see Trumpy as an albatross around Putin's neck. If this perception keeps up, they'll pressure Putin into cutting Trumpy off and letting him dangle. They might even hasten Trumpy's demise by releasing kompromat, just so they can move on and distance themselves from their own failures.

[Squinch]

40. I totally believe it. And I think we will have proof someday. The contested

states were won, in contradiction to the polls, by just the number they needed.

It was proven and conceded that hackers had gotten into most of those states' election systems and roamed around there for a while. This is where the statements all end. That they went in, looked around, and backed out without doing anything. It belies belief for me.

[Baltimike]

46. exactly...they did all of everything else, but stopped short?

Why...and I really mean WHY does anyone think that they engaged in disinfo, funded the NRA, had spies galore running around, but they didn't rig anything election wise? These machines are easily hackable, but nooooooooooooo they didn't do that. They just didn't.

And saying they did is wrong...you have to appease their sense of spite, dontcha know

FUUUUUUUUCK that

[Charlotte Little]

47. Forgive me, please

If this has already been mentioned, mea culpa, but IIRC, Reality Winner leaked classified info that spoke to the reality of rigged votes. It came out and disappeared in the news within 24 hours. And I promise you, I don't have my tinfoil hat on. I just happened to catch it at the time and shared it with my coworker. We were then puzzled when we couldn't find the exact news reports we'd seen just the day before. It's as if they were scrubbed.

Call me crazy, but that poor woman is now in jail for being a very heroic whistleblower - and I'm one to normally argue that classified info should never be leaked.

https://gizmodo.com/reality-winner-hit-with-record-setting-sentence-for-ele-1828558146

[malaise]

49. So history has absolved me ?

I stated from day one that the election was stolen and history would absolve me. Several other DUers said the same thing.

[Baltimike]

50. You, and a host of others. Watch.

You have stood up like a beacon and it's been amazing to see.

[uponit7771]

51. NO !! NO !! NO !! They broke into voter roles, looked around in some and LEFT !! ... Cause that's

... what people who were interfering with an election would do. /sarcasm <--- this is needed around here these days.

[Baltimike]

54. I agree with you. They stopped short of doing anything. Not the kGOPb. They would *never*. nt

[TwistOneUp]

53. Hear here! nt

[Baltimike]

56. Oh, and it's even worse than they first stated. nt