Today I heard on one of the TV shows

[ashling]

I don't remember who, or what network,but someone said, in regard to Trump lieing to the American people, that it is a crime to lie to the FBI, but no to lie to the people.

So here is the question: why?

It seems that in a democracy a lie to the American people, by a candidate in a campaign should be a crime ... as well as by an elected official. It is a serious form of corruption, the same as a bribe.

Am I crazy? ... let me restate that ...is this idea crazy?

[RDANGELO]

1. If the lie is big enough, the remedy is impeachment. n/t

[elocs]

4. And impeachment with no chance of conviction does...what?

It didn't hurt Bill Clinton, but then he was a more skilled and convincing liar than Trump and he also belonged to our tribe so we give him a pass.

[RDANGELO]

11. It gives our country a chance for a better future.

The end result for me is not people in jail. It is a nation where everyone is treated with empathy and respect, and an economy where everyone has a decent living. If an elected official is impeached, it means he is being made an example of.

[elocs]

13. " If an elected official is impeached, it means he is being made an example of."

So did that apply to Bill Clinton as well or does he get a pass because he played for our team, belonged to our tribe?

[RDANGELO]

17. Trump should be impeached for lying about his association with Russians,

who apparently engaged in illegal activity with him and compromised him. Someone should not be given a pass because they are a Democrat. Clinton lied about an affair he had with another adult. Most people did not think that it rose to the level of impeachment.

[elocs]

18. Lying is lying, particularly under oath.

And Clinton and Lewinsky were not adults on an equal level with equal power. It's different today with the MeToo movement than it was back then.

[AJT]

28. +1000

She was a young intern and he was the married president of the united states, the most powerful man on earth. His behavior was terrible. I don't equate Clinton's bad behavior to 45s crimes, but I also don't dismiss Clinton's acts as ok.

[blueinredohio]

36. At least Clinton did try to help the country not

throw us under the bus every chance he got.

[ashling]

19. Well, duh

I'm not asking about what IS, but what should be.

If we are going to rely upon democracy as a system of govt. shouldn't we have a right to rely on the truth coming out of the mouths of our politicianS?

[brooklynite]

2. Every candidate and every Elected Official probably lies to the American Public...

[ashling]

23. Do you think that industry should

"self regulate" when it comes to spewing pollutants into our air and water? What about workplace safety? And on, and on.

I don't. I think that they need to be held to a standard.

Why not our politicians?

I hear many replies here that seem to be cynically accepting of the state of our public rhetoric.

Let's talk about the ethical / moral question, and put aside talking about remedies. And, like I used to tell my students, this is a Socratic discussion. But since the philosopher is not here to play devils advocate, we need to "self socratic" our selves.

For every suggestion, opinion, etc, come up with a credible arguement against it.

[brooklynite]

27. "a credible arguement against it...."

How about...you can't force people not to lie, and it's part of human nature to do so in one form or another.

[ashling]

39. So should we

do away with laws against lieing to the FBI, against perjury, lieing to the IRS, etc.?

[shanny]

3. I get your point but am not sure how it could be enforced.

Politicians spin, shade the truth, misspeak, and yes, lie all the time. Other than a lawsuit after the fact (along the lines of truth-in-advertising) I don't see how to fix it. But I do disagree with the above poster who suggested impeachment as a remedy: a remedy that is unworkable is not a remedy at all.

[Me.]

5. Fix Gerrymandering

and vote the sucker out

[shanny]

7. Sorry--not a fan

of having to wait 2/4/6 years to do that. Not when the public has the attention span of a gnat.

And we have way bigger problems in our voting "system" than just gerrymandering.

[Me.]

12. And Your Solution

Gerrymandering is a HUGE problem. It determines who rules the state houses which in consequence set up the voting rules for the Federal elections

[shanny]

29. well duh

it is. so is the Senate. in the House we have to win by a wide margin to take control (as we did this time). Fixing gerrymandering can fix that, and address problems in the states, but it is not that simple. The fact that Democratic voters tend to cluster in cities anyway can disproportionately concentrate D votes in a few districts, and minimize D seats. That needs to be addressed.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/11/16453512/gerrymandering-proportional-representation

And then there is the very real problem in the Senate (OK popular vote for pres is a big issue too). currently the 25 smallest (least dense) states comprise a little over 15% of the American population and, obviously, elect half of the Senate. In essence, 7.5% of the population can stymie the wishes of the rest. THAT IS SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP. And it isn't going to get any better.

I could go on. Lifetime appointments to the Supremes is ALSO seriously fucked up. A LOT of things are seriously fucked up. This alleged administration is making that very clear, but the systemic problems have existed and persisted for decades. In my view we live in a failed democracy (or "democratic republic" to be accurate). That's how we got tRump. Many fixes are needed and it is now or never. I think we will take control of Congress and the White House in 2020. Assuming we do, if we do not implement a boatload of fixes and reforms, the Republican Party isn't the only one that will be toast. Our party, and our democratic republic, will be also.

[Me.]

30. What Fixes...Exactly?

aside from throwing hands in the air?

[shanny]

31. Pull your hands down and start with the link

[Me.]

33. Yeah, Good Luck With That

Directly voting them out has a better chance as with Calif. in this last election and the states where votes won us state houses

[shanny]

34. The problem with short-term fixes

is that we only have to lose once.

[Me.]

37. True If It Stays Short Term

The thing to do is to use it as a platform for bigger changes but you have to work fast/steady

[shanny]

38. The Republicans have been doing this since circa 1970

working on a plan to take over local governments, school districts, the media, universities, the courts etc etc etc. We have been sitting on our hands and watching it happen. Way past time for that to change.

[lpbk2713]

6. 98% of our elected officials and their staff would be in jail.

And frankly, I don't know who the other 2% would be.

[blueinredohio]

8. Just like it is a crime to lie to police but not a crime if they lie to you WTF?

[ashling]

21. Respectfully I think you may have won the award for

begging the question.

[ananda]

9. The house will never muster the 2/3 to convict ..

.. even after impeaching which means bringing
conviction up to a vote.

[dflprincess]

22. It's the Senate that has to come up with the 2/3 vote to convict.

And a presidential impeachment trial is presided over by the Chief Justice (just throwing that in because of the recent Trump/Roberts dust up).

[Polybius]

25. Isn't the Chief Justice there for show during Senate convictions?

I remember a friend who said that Rehnquist should have thrown out the case against Clinton. But could he even if he wanted to?

[dflprincess]

26. Not sure.

It is the Constitution that says the Chief Justice presides over a presidential impeachment so I would guess his role would be like any judge's at a trial (if we ignore the political implications of impeachment). On the other hand, this has only happened twice (Andrew Johnson & Clinton) so there really have been no precedents set.

[lunatica]

10. Politicians lie to the people all the time

It’s the very heart of politics. Many of them use language that is so grayed down that they really try to use a lot of words to say as little as possible in terms of declarative pronouncements. They hem and hedge and do their best to say what they think the people want to hear, while still leaving room to wiggle out of anything they say.

They play us like a fiddle, promising everything we want, wooing us like a hot, smitten lover going after the señoritas. They promise the Moon, the stars and the Sun. Until they’re elected. Then they forget all their promises and and go back to business as usual. Politics is the ultimate power game of chess, dodging and weaving, creating false narratives with words that can mean whatever the listeners want them to mean.

It’s about dissimulation which in essence is not honest if not downright lies.

[Nictuku]

14. They should be under oath whenever speaking on behalf of the office they were elected to.

[ashling]

20. What if by registering for office, they swear an oath, affidavit,etc. saying

they will tell the truth and not lie to the electorate?

[MichMary]

15. Someone once said--

--that when Jimmy Carter said he'd never lie to us, that was his first lie.

All Presidents have to lie; it's part of the job. They are privy to "national secrets," which they have to protect, even if they have to lie to do it.

[k8conant]

16. So why don't they just say nothing?

As in, if you can't tell the truth, don't say anything.

[Polybius]

24. It's hard to define what a lie is

Did GHWB lie when he pledged no new taxes, or did he sign them into law because he changed his mind and thought it was for the better of the country?

[greyl]

32. Sometimes it's hard, other times easy.

I think the GHWB thing is more broken promise than lie.

[ashling]

40. Exactly

what in contracts law we call "puffing"

I'm going to be winning so much that you'll get tired of winning

vs.

I have had no deals in Russia

[oberliner]

35. The idea is crazy, yes