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garybeck

(9,942 posts)
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:06 PM Dec 2018

"can't indict a sitting president."

i keep hearing it, you "can't indict a sitting president." and that Mueller believes this to be true.

it appears to be clear that when all is said and done, that there will plenty of evidence to indict the current president, except for that rule preventing it.

yesterday I heard some legal pundits arguing saying the question is really open to debate. however the bottom line is that if Mueller believes you can't (or shouldn't) indict a sitting president, it probably isn't going to happen.

At the same time, Mueller does not seem like the kind of person that would just let a criminal go because of a loophole like that. And I don't think either that he would be content just issuing a report and letting Congress decide what to do about it. So what are the other options?

It was mentioned that the day he steps out of office he no longer has that protection. Nadler was quoted yesterday as planning to introduce a bill that would change the statute of limitations for the President, specifically so that he could be prosecuted for crimes that took place while he was in office.

My question is, couldn't they issue sealed indictments now for "Person A", that are scheduled to be unsealed on inauguration day 2021? Everyone, including Trump himself would know who Person A is. all the court documents between now and then could refer to person A. He could shit in his pants for the next 2 years knowing the day he steps out of the door on January 20 2021, he will be in handcuffs. If there is a sealed indictment, I don't think even the Attorney General could wipe it away. Even if Muller is fired, the indictment will still be there waiting. He would probably try to cut a deal that includes resignation.

34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"can't indict a sitting president." (Original Post) garybeck Dec 2018 OP
My brother reminded me MFM008 Dec 2018 #1
i had a similar reaction when i saw Flynn got no jail time. garybeck Dec 2018 #3
I have not-so-fond memories of "Fitzmas" Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2018 #9
Then why would he rake Manafort over the coals? Adrahil Dec 2018 #11
I became fearful as well...what if cilla4progress Dec 2018 #13
Unlike Collins, Mueller is a professional career bureaucrat, not a politician cemaphonic Dec 2018 #4
I'm betting Mueller is an American, first. Political Party is likely further down on the list. Siwsan Dec 2018 #5
Point to any evidence that Mueller allowing political bias to color his actions brooklynite Dec 2018 #7
We have no evidence MFM008 Dec 2018 #34
Fugitives get their statute of limitations tolled exboyfil Dec 2018 #2
that's what Nadler said he is going to do garybeck Dec 2018 #6
There's At Least Some Value In The Symbolism ProfessorGAC Dec 2018 #29
Don't believe prosecutors could empanel a jury that would convict trump. Hoyt Dec 2018 #8
Trump will either fight subpoena, indictment, or impeachment with the full power of the office or wiggs Dec 2018 #10
In doing so, I hope he forces a Constitutional Amendment to revise the Presidential Pardon Power. allgood33 Dec 2018 #30
Tell the president to stand up, k8conant Dec 2018 #12
The President can be prosecuted struggle4progress Dec 2018 #14
Can the president be indicted or subpoenaed? struggle4progress Dec 2018 #15
A sitting president can be indicted struggle4progress Dec 2018 #16
Yes, Trump could be indicted. The 'Nixon tapes' case proves it. Javaman Dec 2018 #17
The question won't be settled until evidence leads a prosecutor to try it struggle4progress Dec 2018 #18
Can a president be indicted? struggle4progress Dec 2018 #19
Can a sitting President be indicted? struggle4progress Dec 2018 #20
Can President Trump be indicted? struggle4progress Dec 2018 #21
Possible to indict a sitting U.S. president struggle4progress Dec 2018 #22
I don't think a sealed indictment extends the statute of limitations marylandblue Dec 2018 #23
The problem is not that Trump really can't be indicted marylandblue Dec 2018 #24
This means that... lame54 Dec 2018 #25
No federal law prohibits indicting a sitting president at federal or state level beachbum bob Dec 2018 #26
In Rachel's Bagman (About Agnew) podcast dawg day Dec 2018 #27
2 words. Richard Nixon. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #28
I'm not buying it Bayard Dec 2018 #31
Can a sitting president be indicted? How do you think this SC would rule on that? elocs Dec 2018 #32
Rosenstein gave Mueller authority to prosecute anything pertaining to Russia bluestarone Dec 2018 #33

MFM008

(19,806 posts)
1. My brother reminded me
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:09 PM
Dec 2018

Last night when all is said and done Mueller is a republican.
Lets hope not the Susan Collins type.....

garybeck

(9,942 posts)
3. i had a similar reaction when i saw Flynn got no jail time.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:15 PM
Dec 2018

many are saying this is a signal to others who get indicted, if you tell the truth you will get off easy.

but it also could be something worse, an indication that we've just been waiting all these months for another Fitzmas that isn't coming.

I hope it's the former.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,412 posts)
9. I have not-so-fond memories of "Fitzmas"
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:19 PM
Dec 2018

Having listened to a very long book about the Iraq War by David Corn and Michael Isikoff (Hubris) , which also addressed the Plame Leak and Fitzgerald's investigation thereof, it seems like Rove only (very) narrowly- by the rotting skin of his rotting teeth- avoided prosecution in that matter.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
11. Then why would he rake Manafort over the coals?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:21 PM
Dec 2018

And why would he appear to be very aggressive in interviews?
h. Of that I am convinced.
Flynn was never going to get a long sentence once he agreed to cooperate. The "no time" recommendation is an indication that he was very helpful.

I'm not convinced the Mueller report will end the Trump Presidency, but it will not be a whitewash.

cilla4progress

(24,728 posts)
13. I became fearful as well...what if
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:30 PM
Dec 2018

Flynn had "nothing" to turn over?

The investigation would have been over a LOOOOONG time ago!

Keep the faith!

cemaphonic

(4,138 posts)
4. Unlike Collins, Mueller is a professional career bureaucrat, not a politician
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:16 PM
Dec 2018

My dad spent his whole career in the FAA, and his politics always took a backseat to the job while at work.

Siwsan

(26,260 posts)
5. I'm betting Mueller is an American, first. Political Party is likely further down on the list.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:16 PM
Dec 2018

At least that is my fervent hope.

exboyfil

(17,862 posts)
2. Fugitives get their statute of limitations tolled
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:14 PM
Dec 2018

Why not sitting presidents.

Ultimately it will be a political question and not a legal one. I think there is a chance that Trump's financial empire comes tumbling down, but I doubt he will spend a day in jail. I also think, baring death or a serious illness, he will be President until 2021, and I pray it won't be longer.

garybeck

(9,942 posts)
6. that's what Nadler said he is going to do
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:17 PM
Dec 2018

however any bill he introduces has to get thru the senate and past a presidential veto.

do you think Trump would sign that legislation? probably not.

ProfessorGAC

(65,010 posts)
29. There's At Least Some Value In The Symbolism
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:21 PM
Dec 2018

"We passed a law that made it clear that NOBODY is unaccountable, and the R's refused to accept it."

From a practical standpoint it goes nowhere but it forces people to go on record as saying they don't believe in legal accountability.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
8. Don't believe prosecutors could empanel a jury that would convict trump.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:18 PM
Dec 2018

There will always be a few right wingers who will stick by trump until the end, hanging any jury. Of course, prosecutors could harass him, and force him to spend millions in defense, for decades.

I’m content with trump being ruined.

wiggs

(7,812 posts)
10. Trump will either fight subpoena, indictment, or impeachment with the full power of the office or
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:20 PM
Dec 2018

he will cut a deal to leave office (or not run) in exchange for no prosecution and a pant load of money.

 

allgood33

(1,584 posts)
30. In doing so, I hope he forces a Constitutional Amendment to revise the Presidential Pardon Power.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:23 PM
Dec 2018

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
14. The President can be prosecuted
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:42 PM
Dec 2018

By MARTIN LONDON
January 29, 2018

... There is no language in the Constitution providing the President with any immunity from prosecution by the appropriate criminal authorities: he is subject to the ordinary criminal processes of “Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to law.” Furthermore, there is not one syllable directly putting the President beyond the reach of the criminal law even if Congress does not impeach.

The argument that the President is immune from the criminal laws is just .. an argument. It involves two issues:

First is the question of whether an obstruction of justice charge can be brought in this case. The President’s supporters argue that key elements of any such indictment could not support a conviction. If everything the President did was legal, they say, he could not possibly be convicted of a crime. And indeed the President was legally entitled to ask then–FBI Director James Comey to go easy on former National Security Advisor Flynn, and then to fire Comey for that or any other reason — just as he is legally entitled to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein or anybody else in the Department of Justice. But the law is clear: an otherwise legal act can be an obstruction of justice if undertaken for corrupt purposes. Yes, the President has the right to fire the head of the FBI. But there is no Constitutional support for the notion he can do so corruptly to immunize himself from “Indictment, Trial, Conviction, and Punishment” for money laundering (whether involving Russians or otherwise), obstruction of justice, a violation of the election laws or any other felony. An imperial Presidency was the worst fear of the Founders.

The second question is not whether, but when. Can the President avoid indictment while in office? But again, there is no language in the Constitution saying he enjoys any such protection. The Department of Justice itself has made this argument before with regards to Article I Officers. I saw it first-hand. During the then–Vice President Spiro Agnew bribery investigation, our legal team argued on behalf of the Vice President that because he was subject to impeachment under Article II, Section 4, he was immune from criminal prosecution unless and until he had been impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate. In effect, we argued that the Vice President had to be impeached and removed from office first — and then criminal charges could proceed. The Department vigorously rejected that claim. They insisted there was nothing in the Constitution that said impeachment was the exclusive remedy for crimes committed by Article I Officers: the Vice President and, by logical extension, the President could be subject to both impeachment and indictment, even if those proceedings were pursued simultaneously. Surprising no one, the Department was quick to nonetheless urge that President Nixon was immune yet Vice President Agnew was not. But that was based on derived argument — not on the hard Constitutional language that self-proclaimed “conservative” jurists insist is the only real guide to Constitutional interpretation. And the current president has certainly made clear that “conservative” judges are the only ones he will appoint ...

http://time.com/5123598/president-trump-impeach-criminal-constitution/

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
15. Can the president be indicted or subpoenaed?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:53 PM
Dec 2018

By Salvador Rizzo
May 22

... The justices have never said whether the president can be indicted, nor whether the president can be subpoenaed for testimony. Only the Supreme Court can answer these constitutional questions definitively. The justices ruled in 1974 that President Richard Nixon could be subpoenaed for documents and tape recordings, but different legal standards apply for a subpoena seeking a witness’s live testimony before a grand jury ...

... “Amenability of the President, Vice President and other Civil Officers to Federal Criminal Prosecution While in Office,” was produced by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel in September 1973 ...

The Office of Legal Counsel noted that the Constitution specifically provides some immunity from prosecution to lawmakers but says nothing about the president being immune ...

In 2000, the Office of Legal Counsel revisited the indictment question after Clinton’s experience with scandal. This OLC memo restated the Justice Department’s view that the text of the Constitution does not give the president express immunity from prosecution but that the powers of the presidency are so vast and important as to bar the indictment of a sitting chief executive ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/22/can-the-president-be-indicted-or-subpoenaed/?utm_term=.e946afbd073b

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
16. A sitting president can be indicted
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:55 PM
Dec 2018

Norman Eisen and Elizabeth Holtzman
Published 3:15 a.m. ET May 24, 2018 | Updated 4:23 p.m. ET May 24, 2018

... Subjecting the president to the time-consuming need to defend a prosecution would not, as argued,unconstitutionally incapacitate the executive branch.

The Supreme Court heard similar arguments from Presidents Nixon and Clinton when they tried to avoid potentially damaging proceedings. In Nixon’s case, it was a criminal subpoena for his tape recordings of Oval Office conversations. In Clinton’s, it was a civil lawsuit brought by Paula Jones.

The Supreme Court rejected the presidential blocking moves both times. While a president is entitled to special accommodation, the court has held that a president enjoys no special immunity from court jurisdiction and the legal process while in office.

If in fact a president is so consumed by a legal defense that he or she cannot lead the executive branch, there are other options. The vice president is constitutionally permitted under the 25th Amendment to assume the office when a president cannot perform its functions. If Trump finds himself in a position where he cannot faithfully execute his official duties, he may resign, or invoke the 25th Amendment and step aside temporarily ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/24/donald-trump-not-above-law-sitting-president-can-indicted-column/634725002/

Javaman

(62,521 posts)
17. Yes, Trump could be indicted. The 'Nixon tapes' case proves it.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:56 PM
Dec 2018
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/yes-a-president-can-be-indicted-the-nixon-tapes-case-proves-it/2017/12/07/26339e32-db4d-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html?utm_term=.b8fd4df4e76a

I believe the answer is yes. When I was counsel to the Watergate special prosecutors, one of the issues that we had to address during the investigation of President Richard Nixon was whether the president was subject to indictment for his role in the Watergate coverup. As we later informed the Supreme Court in briefing the "Nixon tapes" case, we concluded that a president may be indicted while still in office. The Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel has taken a different position, first under Nixon and later under the administration of President Bill Clinton.

The principal argument in favor of presidential immunity is that the president, as chief executive, is the officer ultimately responsible to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Therefore, for the government to pursue a criminal indictment of the president would be like the president prosecuting himself.

snip

In fact, in the Nixon tapes case, the Supreme Court rejected essentially the same point that Trump supporters are making. There Nixon argued that, as chief executive overseeing enforcement of the federal laws, he was not subject to demands by the special prosecutor that the president produce evidence sought by the prosecutor. The court unanimously upheld the fundamental constitutional principle that no person is above the law, and even the president is subject to the ordinary obligations and prohibitions of federal law applicable to everyone else. The caption of the case says it all: United States v. Richard M. Nixon, President of the United States.

Another major argument for presidential immunity is that the burden of defending against a criminal charge would distract an incumbent president from performing his important public duties. That argument, too, did not convince the Supreme Court when President Bill Clinton claimed immunity from having to defend against the civil sexual harassment lawsuit brought against him by Paula Jones. The court emphasized that a president acquires no special immunity from being held accountable for personal misconduct and explained that trial courts are capable of managing legal proceedings in a way that minimizes the impact of a trial on the performance of presidential duties.

more at link...

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
18. The question won't be settled until evidence leads a prosecutor to try it
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:00 PM
Dec 2018

MAY 23, 2018
Garrett Epps
Professor of constitutional law at the University of Baltimore

... The first OLC memo .. issued on September 26, 1973 .. considers the Constitution’s text and finds no answer. It says, correctly, that there is no “airtight separation of powers, but rather … a system of checks and balances, or blending the three powers.” The Constitution provides very limited immunities for members of Congress and none for the president. The impeachment clause says that any official impeached can be tried—at least, but not clearly only, after removal. The debates during the framing and ratification of the Constitution suggest that the president is subject to laws like any citizen, but never discuss prosecution in office. During the trials of Aaron Burr, Chief Justice John Marshall had insisted that Thomas Jefferson was subject to subpoena—but also that as president he could refuse to attend court in person, and could withhold some evidence ...

The Bork memo, issued just 11 days later, assumes that those arguments are valid, and shows that they do not apply to the vice president. On a number of occasions, Bork noted, “the nation lacked a Vice President, and yet suffered no ill consequences.” Indeed, the third vice president, Aaron Burr of evil fame, served the last year of his term under indictment by two states, New York and New Jersey. The president has “complete power over the execution of the laws,” making a prosecution of himself by himself absurd, Bork argued; a “Vice President, of course, has no power either to control prosecutions or to grant pardons.”

Twenty-seven years later, OLC reexamined the question. By this time, there had been major Court decisions, all indicating that the president was not immune to the reach of the justice system. United States v. Nixon required the president to turn over his tapes to a court seeking to use them in a criminal case against other defendants; Clinton v. Jones held that Bill Clinton could not stay a sexual-harassment lawsuit against him until leaving office. In addition, the country had lived through its second presidential impeachment and Senate acquittal. Did the Court cases change the analysis? No, said the OLC lawyers. “The Framers considered who should possess the extraordinary power of deciding whether to initiate a proceeding that could remove the President … and placed that responsibility in the elected officials of Congress. It would be inconsistent with that carefully considered judgment to permit an unelected grand jury and prosecutor effectively to ‘remove’ a President by bringing criminal charges against him while he remains in office.”

... in May 1998, the distinguished constitutional scholar Ronald W. Rotunda had reached the opposite conclusion. He confidentially advised then-independent counsel Kenneth Starr that one particular president, Bill Clinton, could be indicted. “The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly reaffirmed the state[ment] that no one is ‘above the law,’” Rotunda wrote. The independent-counsel statute itself made no sense if the counsel could not indict the president—and Clinton had consented to passage of the statute that created the office, so in effect he had consented to be indicted. Anyway, the Whitewater “scandal” was not about his conduct as president: “witness tampering, document destruction, perjury, subornation of perjury, obstruction of justice, conspiracy, and illegal pay-offs … in no way relate to … President Clinton’s official duties” and “are contrary to” his duty “to take care that the law be faithfully executed” ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/05/presidential-indictment/560957/

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
19. Can a president be indicted?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:03 PM
Dec 2018

CBS NEWS
May 29, 2018, 5:27 AM

... the Constitution is not exactly explicit on the issue, and the Supreme Court has never ruled either way ...

... "A fundamental tenet of our political and criminal justice system is that no man is above the law," Fredericksen says. For that reason, he says that there "is a very persuasive argument that can be made that you can indict a sitting president."

Staffers working for Ken Starr, the independent counsel during the Clinton years, wrote a 56-page memo in 1998 arguing that the rule of law demands that a president can be indicted ...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-a-president-be-indicted/

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
20. Can a sitting President be indicted?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:08 PM
Dec 2018

August 22, 20185:27 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered

... PHILIP ALLEN LACOVARA ... In the Watergate investigation, we examined that issue quite carefully and reached the conclusion that there is no constitutional bar to indicting a sitting president. It's a matter of discretion whether to file such charges. But the issue is still unresolved because, neither in Watergate, nor in the Clinton years, did any prosecutors press the issue ...

For me, the bottom line, as somebody who's been in and around government for five decades, even the president is subject to the law and is equal under the law. And there was an irony in Watergate that President Nixon, but Nixon alone, was pardoned when his co-conspirators all went to prison ...

... I think the bottom line here is that the framers of our Constitution knew how to confer immunities when they wanted to, and they said that members of Congress have a short-term immunity while they're attending legislative sessions. They didn't do that with respect to a president ...

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/22/641005331/can-the-sitting-president-of-the-united-states-be-indicted

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
21. Can President Trump be indicted?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:10 PM
Dec 2018

By RYAN TEAGUE BECKWITH and JENNIFER CALFAS
August 22, 2018

... The text of the Constitution does not explicitly state whether a President can be prosecuted while in office, instead spelling out a mechanism for Congress to impeach and remove a President for “high crime and misdemeanors.” Though the Supreme Court heard arguments in 1974 about the issue in regards to Nixon, it never resolved the question and no court has ever ruled on it one way or another. In 2000, the Office of Legal Counsel wrote in a memo that a sitting President can’t be indicted because it would “impermissibly undermine” the ability of the executive branch to do its job, but constitutional experts disagree on the subject. In fact, one of Trump’s own former lawyers once argued that a sitting president could be indicted.

“It’s really not that much different from the investigation,” says Saikrishna Prakash, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Virginia law school and a senior fellow at the school’s Miller Center of Public Affairs. “The indictment often follows an investigation. It doesn’t have any consequences for him serving as President.”

That said, there’s nothing that would prevent Trump from being charged after he left office ...

http://time.com/5374631/trump-cohen-manafort-indictment-impeachment/

struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
22. Possible to indict a sitting U.S. president
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:13 PM
Dec 2018

By Corey Brettschneider
August 29

... According to the conventional wisdom, the Justice Department has decided the issue in the president’s favor. Yet there’s good reason to dispute that conclusion. Supreme Court case law suggests that the president should be denied this special privilege ...

... In the landmark 1974 case U.S. v. Nixon, the Supreme Court required President Richard Nixon to turn over those parts of his secret Oval Office tape recordings that were relevant to the Watergate criminal investigation. Nixon argued that his executive privilege allowed him to refuse. But the Supreme Court disagreed. In a unanimous decision, it determined that “the fundamental demands of due process of law in the fair administration of justice” are more important than shielding the presidency ...

In the 1997 case Clinton v. Jones, the Supreme Court came a step closer to establishing that presidents could be criminally indicted, ruling that President Bill Clinton could be sued in civil court over sexual advances he allegedly made while governor of Arkansas. Clinton’s lawyers argued that the president’s participation in a trial would imperil the executive branch because it would distract him from his complex and numerous responsibilities. But the court decided that this principle was outweighed by the requirement that litigants be able to seek justice when they are wronged. Clinton v. Jones dealt with a civil case, not a criminal one, but the court’s logic can and should extend to criminal cases ...

The oath of office requires the president to “protect and defend” the Constitution and the country’s laws — not to use them to hide from criminal responsibility ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/29/yes-its-possible-to-indict-a-sitting-u-s-president-heres-why/?utm_term=.4f7cdcbed23e

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
23. I don't think a sealed indictment extends the statute of limitations
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:39 PM
Dec 2018

Because you'd have this sealed document sitting around for years without knowing about it or having a way to defend against it. On the other hand, inability to indict due to special circumstances might extend the SOL.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
24. The problem is not that Trump really can't be indicted
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 02:44 PM
Dec 2018

Because you can indict a ham sandwich, as they say. The problem is that Whitaker or his successor might block the indictment as contrary to DOJ policy. I think Rosenstein might have authorized it, but I don't know about anyone else.

lame54

(35,287 posts)
25. This means that...
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:12 PM
Dec 2018

This next election will be the dirtiest ever
Trump will literally be fighting for his life

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
26. No federal law prohibits indicting a sitting president at federal or state level
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:15 PM
Dec 2018

It's a doj POLICY...not law

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
27. In Rachel's Bagman (About Agnew) podcast
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 03:18 PM
Dec 2018

... the prosecutors certainly thought they could indict a sitting vice president (the AG made a deal to get him to resign a moment- literally- before he pleaded guilty).

Bayard

(22,062 posts)
31. I'm not buying it
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:10 PM
Dec 2018

What if a president commits murder while in office? I would think he would be arrested and tried. Ridiculous you say? How about blatant treason? They used to execute people for that.

With the damage he is constantly doing in this country, and around the world, I don't want him left in that position till 2021.

elocs

(22,569 posts)
32. Can a sitting president be indicted? How do you think this SC would rule on that?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:15 PM
Dec 2018

I think those who are hoping to see Trump go to prison are going to be sorely disappointed.
If this much passion had been displayed in electing Hillary, we wouldn't be having this conversation now and this all would be a bad dream.

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