General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNot impeaching Trump would make a complete mockery of the rule of law and ruin our country.
Waiting to remove Trump by voting him out in 2020 would normalize everything he has done. He must pay a bigger price than just being voted out of office.
Nixons lies to the people were part of his articles of impeachment. Trump has lied thousands of times. Nixon did far less than Trump. Impeachable offenses include things that are crimes and things that are not crimes, like lying to the American people. Not all lies are impeachable, some are. Lying about an attack on America is an impeachable offense. Lying about an investigation that you are part of is impeachable. Lying about a murder is an impeachable offense.
Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice. He is guilty of conspiracy. How do we know? We watched it happen. Trump may guilty of many more crimes.
If Trump is not impeached for all his crimes and non crimes, that will open the door for future fucking assholes to do the same thing. Lying on twitter will become normal. Obstructing Justice will become normal. I do not want this to become normal, fuck that.
Trump must be impeached so this never happens again. A message must be sent. After he is impeached new laws must be passed. Trump has taught us we need better laws to protect us from fucking assholes.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,575 posts)Impeachment doesnt have to happen on day one of the new congress, but it must be on the table, and should be in process by the time the primaries start.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)Also do we want the House spending time on this and then having the Senate not vote for removal?
Fiendish Thingy
(15,575 posts)Certainly waiting for Meullers final report is strategically desirable, and Schoff and other can conduct investigations in the meantime.
If Mueller doesnt release report, or its suppressed, then I think impeachment hearing should begin by this time next year, regardless of the senate.
Impeachment is the right thing to do to confront Trump and preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution, period.
WA-03 Democrat
(3,039 posts)Without the law we would have chaos. Justice must prevail.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)A very dangerous precedent. Beyond dangerous.
If Republicans in the Senate refuse to convict, that's on them.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Don't see Joe Manchin or Doug Jones voting to convict either, especially with Jones gearing up to fight for his seat in a deep red state.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)and standing up for what's right. The hearings will show all Americans what this traitor did and put on the record Congresspeople who stand up to it and those who enable it. It also activates and initiates the public to assemble and put pressure on legislators to do the right thing.
elocs
(22,566 posts)You mean like the Republican House did with Bill Clinton?
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)vs a lie about an affair with an intern? You can't even compare the two.
onenote
(42,692 posts)Yes, it would be an acquittal along partisan lines. Just as his impeachment by the House would be largely along political lines. The Clinton impeachment did significant damage to the impeachment concept. Unless there is such overwhelming evidence as to support a bipartisan impeachment and conviction, its a bad idea.
That being said, once the Mueller report is out, and depending on what it finds, that would be the time to decide whether the House Judiciary committee should convene an impeachment inquiry.
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)The American people will hold Democrats accountable in the voting booth if they don't do the right thing and they will deserve it.
onenote
(42,692 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)and even more are outraged by his corruption and indecency.
onenote
(42,692 posts)Not saying there isn't, but I haven't seen it. Even polls that show that a solid majority of the public has an unfavorable view of Trump don't necessarily show that opposition as translating into support for impeachment.
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)but when they see what he's done, when we hold those hearings and connect the dots, then Mueller's report...
diva77
(7,639 posts)standstill, the media, as corporate and wingnutty as it is, will still have to inform the public who will then pressure the legislators to act. Even if legislators fail to act, it will be in the record.
What a travesty it is that Dubya/Cheney were never on the record as having been impeached even if the votes weren't there.
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)however, not holding this monster accountable, that NO ONE is above the law, if Democrats don't do the right thing, it will once again prove that all the politicians are liars and crooks. We have to have the courage of our convictions, stand up and do what's right!
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)To not impeach because Republicans are too corrupt to convict only exacerbates matters. Make Republicans defend a criminal.
diva77
(7,639 posts)how outrageous things are:
https://www.needtoimpeach.com/impeachable-offenses/
paulkienitz
(1,296 posts)To skip a clearly necessary impeachment because it might be unpopular or because it might be obstructed is to give a green light to all future criminal presidents who happen to have a senate majority.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)is wonderful optics also
dansolo
(5,376 posts)Why do people act as if impeachment is the only option against Trump? When he is out of office, he no longer has any presumed protections of the Presidency. He can still be indicted and convicted then.
I'd rather the House pass mutiple bills that would benefit everyone and have Senate block them or Trump veto them. If we want to win in 2020, we need to demonstrate how Congress is supposed to act.
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)makes Democrats look almost as bad. They can and will put bills on his desk while conducting oversight. It's about right and wrong to Americans, at least the ones who don't watch #rightwingfakenews
Renew Deal
(81,855 posts)I think "forgetting about" the Bush years was probably not the best thing. It might have been the best for Obama and the Democratic party, but taking our medicine when it came to Bush might have prevented further misdeeds by Trump and others.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)BUT the votes in the Senate to convict just aren't there
If the House impeaches and the Senate fails to convict then it will have a twofold effect:
- Trump will look vindicated and stronger. This will almost certainly help propel him to victory in 2020
- Dems will look petty and vindictive causing many of those suburban on-the-fencers who helped put us over the top in the midterms to swing back into the trump camp
Not worth the risk of being cast back into the political wilderness so we can look principled.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)We need to wait till Muller is finished, and releases his findings. If the facts show he should be impeached, and republicans in the Senate are forced to take a side, then go for it. Till then Democrats need to start going after all the corruption trump has brought to the table, along with those in his cabinet who have been bilking the American taxpayers.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,232 posts)backfire on Democrats. Bill Clinton's poll numbers soared during and after impeachment, and it was because NPP voters deplore overturning an election by impeachment, and they take out their anger on the party who initiated it.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Look at how the failed recall effort strengthened and emboldened Walker and the Republicans in Wisconsin. Walker got more votes in the recall than he did during the general in part because he successfully portrayed it as a case of sour grapes on the part of Dems.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...in US history. I don't think it's Democrats who would suffer blowback.
How convenient for Republicans to be so corrupt that we're afraid to hold them accountable for their corruption.
elocs
(22,566 posts)and get them fired up without need.
So a question would be, is it worth possibly losing the presidency in order to impeach Trump? Would your doing the moral thing be worth that risk?
If the Democrats do not impeach Trump, what will you do then?
Pout and be mad and indignant and threaten not to vote for the Democratic candidate? Because that only helps Trump.
Duppers
(28,118 posts)That it would gather support behind Dems.
H2O Man
(73,534 posts)I agree 100%. Thank you.
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)Some thoughts: Nixon resigned after he was told that he would be impeached. I understand how you feel about impeachment. More than anything I would not just want him impeached. I want him gone. However the Senate will never try trump even if he is impeached. (Just like President Clinton). I have seen where it would be better to have trump stay in office and run against him. What I really want is for the repubs in the Senate to finally see all trump's deeds and agree to try trump.
Paladin
(28,252 posts)Evidence of trump's law-breaking is at grotesque, mind-boggling levels at this point. Sitting on our butts and whining about what a Republican-majority Senate might or might not do makes us look weak and ineffective---and all it does is encourage trump and his goon followers. Enough! Start laying the groundwork right now for action, based on what monstrosities the Mueller report is sure to confirm.
dalton99a
(81,446 posts)so let's not bring any charges"
Paladin
(28,252 posts)dalton99a
(81,446 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)it's about RIGHT AND WRONG. I agree, we must hold The Traitor accountable for all the reasons you stated.
joc46224
(62 posts)Both Trump and Pence forced to resign due to Mueller findings, Nancy Pelosi becomes President as 3rd in line and chooses Hillary as her VP.
LOL, I said it was a fantasy---I know it's extremely unlikely. But I think it would be Karma at it's finest. OMG...would love to see the right-wingers heads explode with a President Pelosi and VP Clinton...
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)In other words, Republicans are so corrupt that we must not hold them accountable for their corruption. How convenient for them.
And somehow the most criminal president in US history is the same as a president who lied about having an affair.
It's absolutely wacky.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)But that doesn't change the fact that the jury is stacked in Trump's favor. Yes, this is akin to having a jury full of mafiosi trying a mobster and it sucks but I'm not down for giving Trump and the Trump friendly media an excuse to rub his "vindication" in our faces as he coasts to victory in 2020.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)lpbk2713
(42,753 posts)Letting Trump continue on would be the same as saying we don't deserve any better.
Equinox Moon
(6,344 posts)all at the same time.
I agree with the poster on impeachment. Trump is a disaster and needs to be stopped!
sarisataka
(18,598 posts)Will we need after impeachment?
elmac
(4,642 posts)and the Senate would never prosecute the impeachment but at least it will be on the books.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)Unless Muller has the goods on Pence and Ryan, although it would be Pelosi come January, but definitely not Pence in the presidency.
trump will be indicted once he is out of the presidency, he will go to jail and I for one, can wait for that.
matt819
(10,749 posts)DFW
(54,341 posts)There is really only one question to ask:
Is it worth the risk? On the one hand, the House WILL vote to impeach if Judiciary wants to do it, and Jerry was one of the indignant Democrats on the buses to the White House 20 years ago. Jerry is not a vengeful sort, but the taste of payback might be too seductive to resist. So we get to embarrass Trump with being only the third president to be impeached, we say to the world, "we see significant wrongdoing that calls for an impeachment trial on grounds far more serious than the ones the Republicans used on Bill Clinton." That's the upside we know of.
The downside we KNOW of is purely that the Republican-dominated Senate will NEVER vote with a two thirds majority to convict and remove Trump from office--AND---Trump will brag and crow and do the happy dance and shove it our faces for the rest of the time he remains in office after an impeachment attempt to get rid of him.
The part we don't know, and therefore would be risking: would this be like an American invasion of Iran would be to the Iranians? I.e., would this energize and fire up his dwindling base so dramatically that a re-election drive now practically with a guarantee by LLoyd's of London to fail could suddenly spring up to the point where he could conceivably inspire his backers to stage his re-election? And burn cars, houses and "libbrul" places of business if that fails? His MAGGOTS might not be content just to paint swastikas on Jewish grave markers any more. Mitch McTurtle would just sit back, smirk and enjoy the show.
If there is something more productive our House majority can do, then they should do that instead. Subpoena everybody and hold investigations right and left, but about things that REALLY happened--not chase Grimm's Fairy Tales like Chaffetz and Gowdy. Keep their hands tied behind their back for two years, remind them of what it was like for us. We won't even make them learn to spell the names of Libyan port cities, or where they can be found on a map. The worst they may have to do is read a few words written in the Cyrillic alphabet--but being Republicans, I'm sure most of them can do that already.
YessirAtsaFact
(2,064 posts)It wasnt a given that Nixon would be impeached early in the process.
The people were given a ton of information by the Washington Post as well as the open Senate hearings.
After enough information was made public, the unlikely became inevitable.
harumph
(1,898 posts)Although I agree with all the sentiments expressed upthread,
I think there's no coming back from this. What we've learned is that what
we took to be law - was in many cases a "gentleman's agreement" or
there was no practical way to enforce the law - or where there was a way,
there was no will. The problem is this: the base of the republicans is on the
short end of the demographic stick and they feel it's imperative for them
to get all they can NOW while they still can. Basically, they're feathering their nests -
that's it - no greater goals - no public service - that's for 'suckers."
That's why they're going for broke in NC and WI.
And, compassionate conservatism is just lipstick on a pig (always was).
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)to help protect integrity of the house and put elected officials on record. If Mueller comes out with serious crime charges, they cant just be ignored. It doesnt matter what senate does. Impeachmenet proceedings will make all his crimes public and will force witnesses to testify under oath. It will surely help to diminish his chances for 2020 reelection and will also further damage gop as they get dragged into this.
mwooldri
(10,303 posts)Though there is a policy that sitting presidents are not indicted, it would be easier for Robert Mueller to indicte Mr. Trump instead. It would also be a Democratic "wet dream" if Mike Pence was indicted at the same time.
tandem5
(2,072 posts)The Republicans in the 90s politicized the impeachment process because they had no intention of removing Clinton from office. Unless it's impeachment and removal, the process will be seen as nothing more than a normalized partisan action that has the effect of closing the book on Trump's crimes.
BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)to tRump.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,232 posts)Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)Trump's corruption is massive.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,232 posts)a long, drawn out impeachment process takes more of a toll on the impeachers than the impeached. Besides that, we're way more partisan today than we were back then, so I don't buy the "transparently partisan" argument. The people who swing elections from one cycle to another, aka Independents, hate having elections overturned through impeachment. Everyone thought the recall election of Scott Walker was a great idea, until the voters had their say. That, like the Clinton impeachment, was an eye opener.
Sugarcoated
(7,722 posts)BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)"TEAR THE COUNTRY APART". I almost choked and watched Lawrence react by trying as hard as he could NOT to have his eyes pop out of his head, and he could barely restrain the anger in his voice when he replied to Nadler, saying " We've had 2 modern impeachments and they DIDN'T tear the country apart!".
Dems are gonna cave, and that, just like 2008, will be the breath of life once again for a Republican party lying in ashes, only to come to re-animate again, WORSE THAN EVER.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Because they're smart enough see the writing on the wall and realize that it's a huge gamble with odds that are just not in our favor at this time.
Don't want to see Trump and the GOP doing the mother of all victory laps after he's acquitted by the Senate and embarks on his "vindication" rally tour while gliding to victory in 2020.
Let the investigators do their thing and gather the solid evidence. If we start impeaching right out the gate it can easily be perceived as a political hit.
The last thing we need to do is to push those conservative leaning independents that helped us get over the top in November right back onto the Trump Train by looking petty and vindictive.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Ponietz
(2,957 posts)who are up for reelection in 2020. We can put vise-like pressure on them and flip the Senate if they refuse to convict. AND it will lay the groundwork for a massive RICO case against the GOP and the NRA. This is a must-do. 1/1/19 is the time to act! The infection must be excised. If it cannot be, then there is no point to any of our efforts.
Duppers
(28,118 posts)Sunsky
(1,737 posts)cstanleytech
(26,281 posts)and frankly I do not see a realistic means of getting enough Repugnant Trump water carriers in the Senate to vote to convict considering how hard they have worked to protect him.
sagetea
(1,368 posts)Exactly!! Not to mention what little standing left we have in the world! Also, it will leave the door open for more treasonous pricks!
sage
Martin Eden
(12,863 posts)It's a matter of DUTY in upholding the rule of law and ethical standards. Accountability is an essential measure to deter future crimes.
It is of course a political act, and as such the evidence must be sufficient to make a compelling case before the public that Congress is indeed doing what our nation's Founders had in mind when they included provisions for impeachment in our Constitution.
Then, when it goes to the Senate, the politics will be framed as to whether or not Republican Senators are willing to put their country before the head of their party.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)LBM20
(1,580 posts)meadowlander
(4,394 posts)rwsanders
(2,596 posts)Nixon
Reagan
Bush
Bush
Even if the proceedings had to take place after they left office. At least it would have stripped them of the title, the prestige, and the benefits. It might mean that we wouldn't have to work so hard to fight the right-wing echo chamber.
Initech
(100,063 posts)He knows that he's fucked. But any attempt at impeachment would practically cement him for another 4 years and erase the blue wave. Honestly as much as it sucks that he's the president, he's been the best thing to happen to us in years.
Getting rid of these morons is like stealing from a vending machine. You can't tip it over on the first try. You have to rock it back and forth a few times, then it goes over. And I think that if we keep doing what we are doing, we will tip this thing over.
EleanorR
(2,389 posts)While the Dems have tried to save it by passing legislation like the Affordable Care Act.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)were abuse of power, obstruction of justice, and contempt of Congress. Lying to the American people was not included in the Articles of Impeachment.
If lying to the American people was an impeachable offense then every president since George Washington would have been subject to impeachment, since every one of them has lied at one time or another. Every. Single. One.
kentuck
(111,078 posts)Are we a nation of laws or are we a nation of men?
Nitram
(22,791 posts)enough Repubs will support impeachment to get the job done. Otherwise, it will die in the /Senate.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Impeachment without being found guilty in the Senate would legitimize his actions and ensure his re-election.
Oneironaut
(5,492 posts)I wouldn't see any harm in waiting for more evidence, or for the Mueller investigation to conclude. We also need some Republicans on our side,if possible. I have the feeling even worse stuff is about to come out. Stuff that amounts to treason.