On the Neal deGrasse Tyson situation:

[guillaumeb]

There are a few threads here discussing the accusations against Neal deGrasse Tyson.

The accusations concern things that happened quite some time ago.

And reading the responses, I am struck by how many of his defenders seem to assume a hidden motivation on the part of the accusers.


Some say it is racism, some say it is because deGrasse Tyson is an agnostic.

In my opinion, the vital question, the only question, is:

Are the women telling the truth?


Given how many women have come forward against so many men in positions of power and privilege,

given how the accused issue, at best, a non-apology apology,

given how quick the general public has been to accuse the women of bad faith, or of having an agenda,

do we learn nothing from what has happened, and continues to happen?



Do not tell me that the accused is a liberal, or a progressive, or that the accused fights for justice and knowledge. I do not care.

There is a reason that so many women stayed silent for so long.

And the women have told us why they stayed silent.

They have told us over and over and over.

My view.

[Loki Liesmith]

1. Lol people don't need motives to do bad things.

On either side of the question. Abusers don’t needs motive to abuse. And liars don’t need a motive to lie.

Hurting other people is what humans do.

[guillaumeb]

2. Sadly true.

It is a societal issue.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

3. Well, the oldest accuser has changed her story twice

and is a new-age nutbag, so...



The others? Who knows. Let whatever investigations are gonna happen take their course.

[oberliner]

4. A new-age nutbag?

Did she give him a "Native American spirit handshake" in order to "feel his vital energy" ?

[guillaumeb]

5. That was an interesting comment.

SO dismissive.

[oberliner]

9. It reminded me of the way certain people dismissed Julie Swetnick

[guillaumeb]

11. And Dr. Ford as well.

And some seem to reflexively dismiss every accuser.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

23. I fully supported Dr Ford.

I will say, this is the FIRST accuser I have ever dismissed. A cursory search of my user name and Al Franken would show that you, Oberliner and I agree on these issues a LOT.

This time, this SPECIFIC accuser, I'm suspect.

[guillaumeb]

24. I understand.

As to this case, we should all wait and see what else, if anything, comes out.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

25. Agreed. nt

[Dr Hobbitstein]

22. No, but she pushes astrology, healing crystals, and other forms of woo...

It should be noted, you and I usually agree on these things. In this case, however, I find this SPECIFIC accuser suspect.

[BannonsLiver]

28. She's a cosmic sound healer

Almost like a MD I guess.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

31. Ha!

[BootinUp]

35. Special powers, better than an MD!

[edhopper]

16. Yes she is

a new-ager nut bag

Tchiya Amet El Maat
Coming out of a Cave after Mercury Retrograde with the New Moon in Ophiuchus.

Tchiya Amet El Maat, Natural Health Therapist and Wellness Coach, Specializing in Kemetic Healing and Egyptian Yoga is one of those Therapists that provides therapeutic treatments using Acutonics© tuning forks.

[melman]

6. Yeah it seems to be the way here that if the man is someone popular

then the women are dismissed. It's pretty gross.

[guillaumeb]

8. And sad.

The accusers should be allowed to come forward with no fear of being attacked.

That fear explains why so many abused victims do not come forward.

[Hoyt]

7. Would be surprised if accusations are true; but, then, I didn't believe first Bill Cosby victims

early on either.

[guillaumeb]

10. And some of the others.

Abusers do not "look" a certain way. They are literally everywhere.

[Jarqui]

12. It still comes down to this: "Are the women telling the truth?"

I've read the allegations and I've read his response.

There is no other significant evidence I am aware of to date.

Therefore, at this point in time, I cannot be sure if the women are telling the truth or not.

As a result, in my eyes, he continues to be innocent until proven otherwise.

There should be no special exceptions where we convict someone of wrongdoing on scant or hearsay evidence.
That is how our judicial system works and how our society should work.

Now, if more victims come forward or some evidence materializes, I very open to reconsidering my position. Until then, no way.

I've told this story before. My father roomed at the house of the warden of a prison while going to college. The warden warned my father that one third of the men in his prison for rape were innocent. I don't know if it is 3% or 33% or some other number for false claims today. As long as that possibility exists, I will not convict Neal deGrasse Tyson on such poorly founded claims. I am very comfortable with that position because I think it is pretty close to how it should be.

[guillaumeb]

13. Agreed.

But speculation regarding motivation might be one reason that victims of abuse so rarely come forward.

[Jarqui]

14. I think there are a number of reasons

But with the prison example, for every man in prison for rape, there are probably an extraordinarily high percentage of rapists free, walking the streets and raping some more. We have a self-admitted pussy-grabber who is alleged to have raped a 13 year old now sitting in the Oval Office.

So these women who have come forward have to be taken seriously in terms of looking into their allegations - trying to find out the truth.

I think the MeToo effort has helped get more victims to come forward. We're going to have setbacks like Kavanaugh or Espstein. But there are a lot more like Bill Cosby getting nailed lately. And that's a good thing.

[guillaumeb]

17. It is a good thing, primarily for the victims,

but also for society.

[Pobeka]

29. Hard as it is for honest accusers, speculation must be allowed.

If we allow the speculation, and possible evidence turned up about the accuser, and a false accusation is shown because of that initial speculation, we have allowed justice to prevail.

Sometimes the accuser is the criminal. Evidence discovery and due process have to work both ways, or every accused person is automatically guilty even if they are not.

[guillaumeb]

36. But sometimes the speculation includes attacks on the accuser.

And I feel that might inhibit others from going public.

[Pobeka]

41. In our rabid environment where wackos feel empowered that's true, but ...

how do you handle the problem of false accusations without speculation?

I totally understand what you are saying BTW, and it is awful that we live in a world where so many wackos have network, and voice access to harass accusers. No question in my mind legitimate victims are intimidated by that very real possibility for them if they come forward with an accusation.

[Ferrets are Cool]

15. "given how the accused issue, at best, a non-apology apology"

I must assume since you didn't type "some" in that sentence, that you are also including Senator Franken in your all-encompassing statement of fact?

How would YOU handle an accusation that is 30 something years old?

[guillaumeb]

18. It is an opinion. My opinion.

And there have been so many accusations.

My view is that most people do not abuse others.

But Dr. Ford's accusation, while old, was never the subject of a thorough investigation.

[guillaumeb]

20. Do we insist on one standard?

What I have read in some of the other threads is troubling to me.

[BannonsLiver]

21. It's Sanctimony Saturday!

[still_one]

26. My take is if the alleged victim related what happed to her to a friend, relative, or associate, it

gives credibility to her story

Barring that, or other evidence it is a he said/she said
where people will choose based on their bias perhaps who to believe

[guillaumeb]

37. Agreed. eom

[bitterross]

27. We should certainly treat his accusers with the respect we did Dr. Ford.

Last edited Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:05 AM - Edit history (3)

We should also treat Tyson with the same respect any accused person is due. We should not treat him the way Al Franken was treated.

Just as with Dr. Ford and the Bret Kavanaugh situation we have accusations from a long time ago. I have posted this over and over again with respect to this issue:

We saw that an actual investigation of Brett Kavanaugh would have turned up a lot of circumstantial evidence. Evidence that would show his behaviors during the time of the assault of which he was accused were consistent with being a predator and someone who would likely have committed the act of which Dr. Ford accused him. Kavanaugh and all of his supporters didn't want this investigation for that very reason. A fair investigation would have shown him to be the despicable cretin he is. It would have shown he was a black-out drunk, an openly misogynistic, self-important, privileged ass then and now.

With Tyson we have the opposite. He's calling for an investigation.

As a graduate student at the time of the accusation, DeGrasse-Tyson would have interacted with hundreds of female students. He was probably a teaching assistant so he would have had power over those students. Were he at all inclined to either use that power over the students to gain sexual favors or to go so far as to drug and rape someone, there will be other students with similar stories. A real investigation that sought out his students from that time would be a good indicator of whether or not the allegations are true. It could bring forward other women who were abused or it could clear his name with reasonable certainty by the complete absence of any other alleged incidents.

At his current job Tyson must have had many assistants and worked with many women. An investigation in which those people are interviewed can bring to light his character and behavior in recent years. Just the same way an investigation into his past would.

My issue with several of the accusers here is they have made statements that make it pretty clear they don't think any kind of investigation will clear Tyson. As with Franken, they seem to use Tyson's confirmation that situations did happen between him and his accusers as an admission of guilt. That's wrong. Tyson is honest enough to say, Yes, this situation happened. I didn't know the other person was seeing it in a completely different light than I saw it. They didn't say anything about it to let me know and I'm sorry if that was the way I made them feel. That is not an admission of guilt. That's being a decent human.

At the same time, none of those same people posting here have suggested what a logical outcome to the situation should be. They've just left Tyson's character, reputation and innocence/guilt flapping in the wind. They don't say what will satisfy them in place of an investigation as a resolution.

I think we can have an investigation that determines whether or not Tyson is likely guilty. If he is of the same sort of character as Kavanaugh or Cosby. People like Cosby are serial offenders. As we have seen. If Tyson is also one, there will be other evidence out there.

At this point, I have no idea who is telling the truth and I'd love to see the results of an investigation.

[mr_lebowski]

32. +1000 couldn't have said it better, this is my exact thinking ...

Well, that and the fact that I don't believe 2 of these accusations even remotely rise to the level of criminality, more like the usual 'uncomfortable situations' that women (sadly) have to deal with in their lives, and frankly I can't imagine any actual 'harm' came to these women due to the actions, which he's admitted to. I don't think they were traumatized and had to seek counseling. I don't think they wake up terrified at night. I'd imagine they're still capable of intimacy, etc.

The third woman ... as you say ... if he did something as egregious as what she's suggesting ... the drugging/raping, then there's almost certainly going to turn out to be others, and presumably some would come forward as happened with Cosby. But as has been mentioned her story has changed over time, and she seems a bit wacky. But if evidence develops that he was doing this to women, then of COURSE everything changes in my attitude.

[bitterross]

33. I'm with you.

The two uncomfortable situations are just that. In my opinion. I know in my life I've had those situations. I've accidentally been too friendly or assumed the level of the relationship between me and another person was more open and casual than the other person thought. I have, on more than one occasion, accidentally made physical contact with a woman's breast or genitals. The same can be said about me and males. Contact happens that is without intent. These things happen to all people I'm sure. I'm just not famous and no one has anything to gain by recalling those situations.

I've avoided any terms like "wacky" to describe the accuser because I do want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I do have to question the veracity of anyone who went from being a physicist and now claims to be a "Cosmic Healer." A person selling HeruScopes and all other sorts of outlandishness. Not just the fake homeopathic crap, but a whole variety of "woo." I believe all people of this nature are deluded individuals suffering from mental issues or they are just plain old cons. Taking the sheep for what they can get. I do not know which type his accuser is for certain. She could sincerely believe what she is saying or she could be using this to elevate her profile and business.

[Meowmee]

30. I have heard anything about it yet

I am sick of all of these cases being “tried” in the media. Do an investigation and don't assume innocence or guilt etc.

[lindysalsagal]

34. Is anyone attempting legal satisfaction, or is this just public complaints?

The real question is: Have you been able to convince a lawyer that going after him will render any kind of solution in your favor, because you have some kind of verifyable evidence?

[guillaumeb]

38. A question for the accusers. Yes.

And if a victim waits any amount of time, people are less inclined to believe the victim.

[Muskiteer]

39. So does Tyson need to prove himself innocent of all claims?

Of course. Accusers can't be and shouldn't be questioned. A person must be considered guilty unless they can prove themselves to be innocent with hard documentary evidence including videos and sound recordings and at least a half a dozen credible witnesses that are acceptable to the accusers.

That's how justice works!

Perhaps in dictatorships.

Let's wait for the outcome of the investigation before we cast judgement on Tyson. Isn't that the fair and honest thing to do?

[guillaumeb]

40. No one here has said that.

And as has been said, charges have been made. Now it is up to the justice system to investigate.

[Mosby]

42. I haven't been following this closely

Did he rape someone or something?

Are the crimes being investigated?

[guillaumeb]

43. There have been accusations of misconduct.

And one assumes that these accusations will be investigated.

[Mosby]

44. Thanks, I'll read up. Nt