General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsChri$tianity faces one of its biggest splits in centuries this weekend
Ukraine moves to create a new church independent from Russia's influence.
Critics of the plan for an independent Ukrainian church warn it could lead to violence and forced takeovers of churches loyal to the Russian branch.
Roman Lunkin, an expert in theology and director of the Center for Religion and Society Studies at the Institute of Europe in Moscow, said that "fighting around churches, disruption of worship, pickets and seizures of buildings" appeared inevitable.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/christianity-faces-one-of-its-biggest-splits-in-centuries-this-weekend/ar-BBQWHuc?li=BBnbfcL
RELIGION KILLS
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Keeping politics out of religion is good for both.
Wounded Bear
(58,645 posts)It wouldn't take operatives much to get a movement like this going in Ukraine, and it would give Putin's possible takeover more impetus from the Russian people.
Christ, it's like we're back in the 1600's. Germany didn't recover from that bullshit till the 1800's.
highplainsdem
(48,966 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,645 posts)That's the tack I'm looking at. There have been reports of troop and equipment concentrations on Ukraine border. Maybe those are just maneuvers or training excercises, but who knows?
We don know that Moscow thinks of Ukraine as some kind of 'lost province," much like Saddam thought of Kuwait.
highplainsdem
(48,966 posts)almost any political/military excuse to intervention based on a church schism.
Igel
(35,298 posts)The Moscow Patriarch rules over the Ukrainian orthodox even as he blesses the assault by Russians on Ukraine.
This split started a while back and has only gained steam. So the "new" schismatic Patriarch in Ukraine blessed the defenders. Suddenly *both* churches had armies, and Putin and his angels of darkness really got pissed off. So "takeovers" have been the Russian Orthodox (even if they're rather unorthodox in many ways) backed by the Russian militants in the Donbas and the new government in Crimea, forcibly taking over Ukrainian schismatic churches, beating up parishioners and priests, trashing de-affiliated churches.
The doctrinal differences are trivial. It's the fact that church and state separation is a western thing, and a recent thing, that's at the stumbling block to a lot of western understanding. The Patriarch has almost always been knee-deep in politics, whichever patriarch in whichever church we're talking about. Originally, not so much in Slavic lands. The Horde when it was in charge of Russia did the au courant Muslim thing and identified "minorities" (even if the majority, since Muslims were the privileged everybody else was a "minority" by their confession, and placed the religious leaders as de facto authorities over those groups. The Ottomans did that until their last gasp. When Ivan Groznyi took over from the Horde, things changed but didn't change--the Horde always had power, so Ivan had power; but the Horde gave the Patriarch a lot of umph, so Ivan kept that up when it suited him. So the Patriarch over Russia had a huge say in politics as a result, and that's carried on except when there was one all-powerful deity over Russia that allowed no other worship, the Communist Party. Even then, when Hitler came to shove, Stalin turned to the Patriarch for his blessing and alliance, securing for Orthodoxy a special place under Communism (and constituting the final betrayal of the sectarians that so helped the Bolsheviks).
Note that even then there was the same sort of secular/religious split, at least on paper (the Stalin tarakanshchik sort of blotted out most distinctions). There was officially a government that was elected and not the Party, but everybody knew that what the Party did was God's voice, or had better damned well be taken as God's voice if you didn't want to wind up in hell or the GULag purgatory.
highplainsdem
(48,966 posts)That includes countries with governments professing atheist ideologies opposed to religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
Religions/churches tend to splinter over time. As do political parties.
But in this case, given Putin's influence on the Orthodox church in Russia, I can understand Ukraine wanting an independent Ukrainian church.