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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTransgender and sports. Mentally debating myself
Im posting this because I am conflicted as to how I feel. I read an article on CNN about a transgender athlete encountering resistance while trying to compete. I will post the link to the article below. What are your thoughts?
Just so no one thinks Im trying to shit stir without giving an opinion, Ill say that I can understand the argument in regard to the natural testosterone this athlete has benefited from compared to the other girls. What is the common ground or the solution here?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2810857-andraya-yearwood-knows-she-has-the-right-to-compete?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)"The kids began yelling back at them, 'This is our meet, not yours. What's wrong with her competing?'"
Let's defer to those whom the competition is for.
Gen Z kids are different. What took our generations decades to come to terms with takes them months.
There is no such thing as "fair" but there is such a thing as "right".
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Quackers
(2,256 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,316 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)"She came in second." Also, her times are not at collegiate levels yet. She's a runner, but she has tough competition out there. She's a very good runner, but she came in second in that race. Some other girl beat her.
Her teammates don't care. Neither should anyone else. That's my opinion, anyhow.
Quackers
(2,256 posts)a transgender athlete does win. Then their victory is overshadowed with the whole, its because theyre transgender argument again. Wouldnt it make sense to just get rid of gender segregated sports?
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)Overall, there are enough differences to make that impractical. However, I see no reason to prevent transgender people from competing in the gender they believe themselves to be. It's unlikely that anyone is going to pretend to be transgendered just for an athletic advantage. I can't imagine that happening. There are too many other challenges to anyone who is different.
Really, it's not nearly as big a problem as people make it out to be. As an athlete, the individual in the story will find very, very tough competition as soon as she leaves her small town, high school environment. She is not guaranteed success, by any means.
I wish her the best of luck, and wish people would just let her be who she is and compete without controversy. It's just not that big an issue. Truly it is not.
Quackers
(2,256 posts)What has had me feeling torn is the fact that I take testosterone every two weeks. There is an advantage to it. Does the fact that she has that advantage unfairly influence the other athletes? Im not trying to single her out and apologize that Im coming across that way. For me, this is about sports as a whole, not just her case. In sports, players can be banned for having a chemical advantage. Even in cycling, you can be banned for doping if your have high levels of red blood cells in your system.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)https://nypost.com/2018/10/16/transgender-cyclist-slams-bigots-after-winning-world-championship/
Cyclings first transgender world champion has fired back at heated criticism surrounding her breakthrough victory at the 2018 UCI Masters track championships.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,316 posts)Not breasts, not penises, not makeup. If society wants separate men's and women's sports, and wants to use those separate sports to determine scholarships and professional careers, it by definition will have to draw a line that is socially acceptable while respecting as many lived realities as possible. Measuring testosterone levels is an imperfect but possible option. The NCAA's policy also seems to be a good one, but applied to high school subjects minors to invasive knowledge-sharing about their own health history. It's a knotty problem, the solution to which will become clearer as the kids who support Andraya get older and can help shape policy.
Quackers
(2,256 posts)I take testosterone injections every two weeks myself. There is a significant benefit to it.
Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)Option A: eliminate gender discrimination and have everyone compete on the same field.
This would have a negative effect on college sports in terms of athletics (and Title IX, etc). But you'd have the advantage of not having to worry about where each of the 60+ genders fall. For example, a pangender individual doesn't have to be be assigned to a category (male/female) that doesn't work for them.
Option B: use biology
The only reason we have segregated athletics is because we believe (rightly or wrongly) that certain categories have explicit advantages over others. We don't have middle schoolers competing against college students in basketball. We don't place 135 lb wrestlers against 190 lb wrestlers. For a sport like running, there is a belief that men have a physical advantage over women, and therefore we've opted for segregating male and female runners. That belief might be faulty, in which case, we should switch to option A above. However, if this belief is rooted in reality, then to decide how to continue segregating, it would make sense to ask where the advantage comes from. If it comes from biology (which sex you were born as), then that should be the dividing line. If the advantage comes from identity (how you identify), then that should be the dividing line. Although the self-identifying has the same issue as mentioned above: if someone identifies as non-binary, where do they go? The male/female segregation seems to be based on biology, so if we're going to continue segregating, then biology is the only factor that would make sense.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)Treat the transgendered individual as the gender they express.
another take on it here:
https://medium.com/@transphilosophr/why-its-fair-for-trans-athletes-to-compete-against-women-bb7a45ef1b42
Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)How someone expresses themselves has no bearing on athletic competition. Your sex at birth arguably might.
Edit to add: Looking at that article, I think there might be an argument for allowing someone to compete as female if they've undergone hormone adjustments. Maybe that would reduce/eliminate the biological bias. But then we have the question of someone who decides not to undergo this treatment. If someone is born a male, but identifies as female and does not want to physically change their body, is it "fair" to let them run as a female? And specifically, I think the question is whether it's fair to the women who they are competing against.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)I dont think there are a lot if teenage runners or athletes in general that have transitioned that dont take either a blocker or hormone treatments. I dont have any statistics to back that up though, just my exposure in the community over the years.
It's an interesting question, and I tend to always fall to the rights of the individual first.
Edited to add, to compete in the Olympics you must undergo hormone therapy for at least two years:
In 2003, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) ruled that it was fair for transgender athletes to compete in the Olympics, providing that they underwent hormone replacement therapy for at least two years prior to competition, had genital reconstruction surgery to reflect the gender with which they identified and changed their gender identity on all legal documents. http://www.excellesports.com/news/trans-athletes-unfair-advantage-sports/
Oneironaut
(5,491 posts)- You are not a real (man or woman), and you never will be.
- You cannot use the correct bathroom, but you cannot use the other bathroom either
- You cannot play in sports. Should you win, its because you have an advantage. If youre FTM, then you shouldnt participate either - youre simultaneously too strong for the girls and too weak for the boys.
- Youre making it up / have mental issues. Being transgender is a mental illness (that we ironically dont think should be treated, just ridiculed).
- Youre inherently dangerous - stay away from our kids!
Imo, the people who feel so strongly and angrily about this would have felt the same way about black and white desegregation. They have the same mental flaws and bigoted personality traits that cause them to be prejudiced now. I bet, for 99% of them, this isnt just about sports. Its about invalidating and destroying a segment of the population they dont think should be allowed to exist.
Like the bathroom issue, this story, for example, is a rallying cry for bigots. Its not about the sports. Like with most organized bigotry, the stated issues they have with us is a smokescreen for what theyre really trying to do. Theyre wonderful bull crap artists.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,402 posts)As somebody who is Transgender (MTF), I couldn't agree more with everything you've written here. Thanks.
FreeState
(10,570 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,059 posts)There are cis women who are barred from competing at various levels because their testosterone is too high. Similarly, there are men with lower testosterone than the level that would disqualify cisgender women from competing in women's events.
Although it comes up explicitly in conversations about trans athletes - it is not exclusively a question related to trans athletes.
For example, 16.5% of men had a testosterone level below 8.4 nanomole per litre (the lower limit of the normal male reference range). Some were unmeasurably low. And 13.7% of the elite female athletes had a level higher than 2.7nmol/l, the upper limit of the normal reference range for women. Some were in the high male range.
. . .
Thus, there was a complete overlap of testosterone levels between male and female elite athletes. This challenged existing knowledge, which had assumed there was no such overlap.
http://theconversation.com/fair-play-at-the-olympics-testosterone-and-female-athletes-60156
Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)Maybe that would be the way to segregate events: measuring hormone levels. If we could come up with a complete list of what chemicals truly affect athletic ability, then maybe this would be the way to go. Probably a little early yet, but it will be interesting to see where the science leads.
Quackers
(2,256 posts)Im just not as informed on this as I would like to be. I take testosterone injections every two weeks so I do notice a difference. My levels were in the 200s on my last blood draw before they started the meds.
Ms. Toad
(34,059 posts)I remember the 2016 Olympic controversy & went lookig for one of the articles I read back then.
My foster son takes T; and my high school sweetheart is working to recover from a lifetime of what she describes as testosterone poisoning. Having known both of them for years before and after hormone hormone therapy I notice differences. Although in both instances, what I notice more than hormone-related changes is how much happier they both are.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What amazes me is that people think this is a "simple thing".
It's not a simple thing, nor has it ever been.
Top performing athletes are unusual physical specimens in the first place. That they may have all sorts of genetic and hormonal circumstances is not unusual in view of the fact that they are unusual people in the first place.
Alea
(706 posts)"With the exception of childbirth, men really can do everything better than women, including being a woman"
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2018, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)
We've had that battle here before.
Alea
(706 posts)The quote was from another person, probably a repuk. Note the grr emot. Because it pissed me off.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2018, 08:33 PM - Edit history (3)
The premise is that transgender rights are an innovative way to cheat us and take advantage of the binary gender society that heaps love and advantage on them at every turn.
That's bullshit.
Stop trying to fix the tiny problem while ignoring the huge one.
This is a ridiculous topic.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is a discussion forum. The poster seems to be coming from a genuine place. Why not simply present your views?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Because whenever there is a legitimate complaint by a mistreated minority group, you're always along shortly to undermine the complaint.
Discussion groups need white males popping in to say that discrimination by that group's members isn't really happening, isn't that bad or is misunderstood.
It's what you bring to this place.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That some people would rather shut down a discussion than have one.
Ms. Toad
(34,059 posts)Problematic:
"transgendered"
The adjective transgender should never have an extraneous "-ed" tacked onto the end. An "-ed" suffix adds unnecessary length to the word and can cause tense confusion and grammatical errors. It also brings transgender into alignment with lesbian, gay, bisexual, and queer. You would not say that Elton John is "gayed" or Ellen DeGeneres is "lesbianed," therefore you would not say Chaz Bono is "transgendered."
https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Humans do not neatly fall into male and female, and the problem of dealing with various types of intersex individuals is not a new one in sports.
The medical experts and the sport governing bodies are the appropriate ones to make rules in this complicated area.
As with any sport, once the rules are established, the athletes compete in accordance with them.
obamanut2012
(26,064 posts)Good grief.