Do kids take English in school anymore?

[leftyladyfrommo]

I am amazed at the spelling in so many comments. Too, to and two. Their, there and they're. That is pretty basic stuff.

And no punctuation.

It is kind of amazing. Do the schools not teach the basics anymore?

[DFW]

1. Apparently only as a foreign language. The official language of late is Republicanese

EXCERPTS FROM THE OFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF REPUBLICANESE

In Republicanese, many words that sound alike may be spelled differently at random. A few prominent examples:

In Republicanese, the following words may be spelled at random using any of the three ways given:

A.) Two, Too, To
B.) Their, They're, There
c.) Your, Yore, You're

The Republicanese version of Robin Hood therefore starts with "In days of you're...."

The only rule is that the correct use of them as in English is never permitted twice in a row.

Words with single letters that change meaning when a letter is doubled must never be used in correct English context. The classic example is “lose” vs. “loose.” In Republicanese, if you do not win an election, then you “loose” that election. Conversely, if your (Republicanese: you’re) belt is too tight, you need it more “lose” in order to be comfortable. Another example would be the Republicanese, “I met Donald Trump, and he was rudder than I imagined,” vs. “I grabbed the ruder and was able to steer the boat to shore.”

In Republicanese, an apostrophe is used to form a plural, but it must be done at random, never systematically. For example, Bill and Hillary are "the Clinton's," but Bill, Chelsea and Hillary are "the Clintons." The other way around is also correct. In Republicanese, either form is correct as long as it is not spelled the same way twice in a row.

[LakeSuperiorView]

9. Missed a couple...

A.) Two, Too, To, 2
B.) Their, They're, There
c.) Your, Yore, You're, Ur





The schools have given up on spelling and grammar, feeling that writing in any format is preferable. In order to not single out those with dyslexia or any other learning disability, the lowest common denominator was accepted and spelling and grammar became optional, or the domain of software. Twitter's artificial character limits also have contributed to using whatever shortcuts that may crop up randomly.

[DFW]

30. In self-defense....

I DID say "excerpts."

The full dictionary of Republicanese is twice as big as the dictionary of English. The supplemental text space is needed to account for all the random forms that English does not allow.

[thucythucy]

80. Let's not blame kids with disabilities for the poor state of our education system.

The idea that kids with disabilities being mainstreamed is responsible for the slide in education standards is a right wing talking point. Conservatives would rather see kids with disabilities shunted into basements or state residential "schools"--as in the "good old days" when anyone who was in any way different from mainstream norms was hidden away.

Blaming kids with disabilities ignores decades of underfunding, the rise of charter schools and the subsequent undermining of teachers' unions and siphoning off of students from more affluent families into gated education, the plethora of distractions that have replaced reading, and in general the denigration of teachers and education and learning and anything that smacks of "elitism" or intellectualism. Maybe if we treated teaching as an honorable and important profession, and education as the social imperative it is, we wouldn't see the monstrosities in public life we're seeing today.

But as you say, Twitter and social media in general most likely play a role.

Merry Christmas.

[Raastan]

112. + 1

[treestar]

91. Kids with learning disabilities have rights to special education

and individual plans. They are not wrecking the average student's education. They are singled out and special plans made for them. They have accommodations and aids to help them.

[Squinch]

106. I'm in schools every day. Your statement is bullshit. Sounds like something you'd hear on Fox news.

[Codeine]

111. Oh please.

Facebook posts demonstrate that even the folks who went to school in the “good old days” don’t know how to use those words properly. Sub-literacy is hardly a new phenomenon.

[at140]

131. +1,000,000

and in spite of free spell checkers available everywhere!

[LeftInTX]

204. FB doesn't have spell checkers!!!

Seriously...it's embarrassing...I have to Google words that I want to get right...never mind that many people use FB on their phones...

[tavernier]

196. Bingo.

My grandkids, 17, 21, 29, cringe when they see those grammar errors in writing. Verbally, “we was” and “we seen” would normally be swiftly corrected, but they have been told not to be rude to their elders.

[CountAllVotes]

139. Admittedly, I abbreviate a lot

I do it when I can as I am typing w/one hand these days.

It is ultra-slow at best.

My posts tend to be quite short these days!

[LakeSuperiorView]

150. Rather than replying to all of you who choose to read your own interpretations into what I wrote.

I do not blame the people with learning disabilities, but the people that decide that no one can rise to abilities greater than the minimum. That everyone must meet minimum standards and no more than the minimum standards. To crank out standardized, poorly educated workers who reliably watch fox "news", disbelieve science, vote republican.

[Persondem]

161. You still don't get it

" ... the people that decide that no one can rise to abilities greater than the minimum."

These "people" do not exist except in your mind. And to which "minimum" do you refer? The student who reads one standard deviation below their peers? The student with dyslexia that reads 3-5 grade levels lower than his/her peers? The student who takes a modified curriculum who has a low IQ and various other health concerns?

Education certainly has it's problems, but not the one you have created out of thin air.

And yes, it still sounds like you are blaming students with disabilities for this supposed reduction in rigor in our public schools.

[LakeSuperiorView]

180. No, you do not get it.

These people are the ones that set the Texas standards for school books. These people are the fundamentalists that wedge themselves into school boards and ban books. I have blamed nothing on children in schools, if you actually read what I have written, rather than injecting your thoughts into my words.

Please don't assign your fantasies to my words.

[Persondem]

187. Well guess what, I don't live in Texas and neither do most of the people

reading your comments. Adding some context and not including phrases like 'teaching to the lowest level' might have helped a great deal.

[LakeSuperiorView]

191. Guess what, the Texas school book standards are used in many states...

The Texas school system is the second largest in the nation. Many states simply adopted the Texas school books rather than spend money on their own standards. Textbook publishers print what will be accepted in Texas, sales are more important than content Textbook authors don't get paid for books that don't get printed. Common core is starting to overcome Texas's undue influences on textbooks, hopefully it will eventually undo the damage that has been done.

Texas has been known for years to meddle with content, injecting ideology into subjects where it doesn't belong. Kind of like some recent events, such as claiming "teaching to the lowest level" blames children with disabilities. The phrase talks of teaching, does not even mention children, yet what you synthesized in your mind was blaming children.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Texas_Board_of_Education
http://nowiknow.com/why-texas-may-decide-what-your-child-learns/

[LanternWaste]

198. Of course, the important thing is that you can rationalize your snarkiness as assistance.

And continue blaming others for what you wrote, rather than simply trying to write with more clarity.

[LakeSuperiorView]

200. Good Lord, hoe obtuse can one be?

[Ms. Toad]

203. As a teacher, I can attest Texas as completely dominating the school textbook market.

If a text couldn't be used to teach the state-mandated curriculum in Texas public schools, it wasn't available. Every major textbook manufacturer wrote their textbooks to that audience/curriculum.

From the 2013 documentary "The Revisionaries" on this issue:

In Austin, Texas, 15 people influence what is taught to the next generation of American children. Once every decade, the highly politicized Texas State Board of Education rewrites the teaching and textbook standards for its nearly five million schoolchildren. And when it comes to textbooks, what happens in Texas affects the nation as a whole. Texas is one of the nation's largest textbook markets because it is one of the few where the state decides what books schools can buy rather than leaving it up to local districts, which means publishers that get their books approved can count on millions of dollars in sales. Further, publishers craft their standard textbooks based on the requirements of the biggest buyers. As a result, the Texas board has the power to shape the textbooks that children around the country read for years to come.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/revisionaries/

For more than a decade I taught mathematics - eh, who cares. I also taught physics - so the potential for Texas to mandate creationism was hotly watched among my science peers.

However, I disagree with the basic premise about teaching to the lowest common denominator

When I was teaching in the late 70s through the 80s grammar, spelling, and punctuation were being de-emphasized. English teachers were not even permitted, at my school and others, to use those factors as part of the score. The philosophy was that focusing on the mechanics of writing was getting in the way of using writing to convey ideas - and the goal was to avoid cripping young writers by making them afraid to express their ideas because they might use the wrong work, misplace a comma, etc.

Since I started teaching right out of college, and was taught not only grammar, spelling, and punctuation - but sentence diagramming - I'm pretty sure that is the start of deemphasizing grammar - not a dumbing down to make sure everyone could reach the minimum, but a conscious (misguided, as far as I'm concerned) decision to focus on communication of ideas, rather than on the mechanics of communication.

[Codeine]

167. I have two school-age children.

They attend two different schools in two different systems and neither of their schools exhibits anything like the problems you’re suggesting. Students who excel are celebrated and encouraged to push even further while those who struggle are assisted.

Your complaint is an imaginary one.

[LakeSuperiorView]

181. Do your children attend every school district in the country?

Do you believe every school is exactly the same as your schools?

Two students is a rather poor sample size for you assertion.

[CreekDog]

185. if you had adequate command of the English language, all these posters wouldn't misunderstand

or misunderstand in the very same way.

you should work on your English skills before talking about those of others.

[LakeSuperiorView]

186. One's failure in reading comprehension is not necessarily the problem of the author.

Some people just want to be offended and choose to read what they want. They inject their biases into material that clearly does not say what they want it to say.

There exist people who will read one clause of a long sentence and will go to extreme lengths to defend their own thoughts on a mere fragment of the whole statement. People will go so far as to claim their right to weapons of war are God Given, when the 2nd Amendment is clearly speaking of militias. My writing, of course, is not on par.

[LanternWaste]

199. While yet others admit to no mistakes of their own

"Some people just want to be offended and choose to read what they want..."

While yet other people admit to no mistakes of their own, rationalizing any misunderstandings as always the fault of someone else...

[LakeSuperiorView]

201. Please cite, oh enligthened one, where exactly I blamed children...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. You forgot

Yuge!

Bigly!

Covfefe!

Itz a series problem. Hugh!11!!!1

[TexasProgresive]

18. Moran's all of them.

[Persondem]

162. Dude .... it is not "moran" ....

it's "moron".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=moron

[TexasProgresive]

165. Dude, it goes back to this picture, maybe back to the Dubya years.

I certainly know how to spell moron.

[Persondem]

173. Ok. Makes sense now .... for a while I was wondering though .... nt

[TexasProgresive]

176. It goes back to "It's hugh!" Later we got bigly.

[Botany]

29. How about this exercise in grammatical gibberish?

Link to tweet

Commas just go ahead and put them any old place, capitalize words at random,
and skip the needed pronouns.

[DFW]

31. Your hard drive does contain enough storage for the whole thing

I just provided a brief sample.

[crazycatlady]

177. How about the classic tea party signs?

No Pubic option
Homescholers for Perry
Get a brain morans
More fun less taxis (Unless he really hates cabs)
Respect are country-- Speak English
Youth in Asia will kill Grandma
Obama half breed muslin
Don't mortage my child's future
Keep govment out of Medicade

[Martin Eden]

19. Loose rhymes with juice. Lose rhymes with booze.

My pet peeve is the use of "loose" when it should be "lose."

Also "it's" instead of "its."

Even worse is that apostrophe for a plural, which I see more and more these days.

[htuttle]

20. It's not nice to cast asparagus on people!

Siriusly.

[DFW]

32. I no. Sometime's I cant help it. n/t

[True Dough]

43. Aspargus?

Lettuce rejoice in your veggie repartee! I can't beet that one!

[treestar]

90. LOL DuZY!

[janterry]

2. My teen spells better than I do

Last edited Tue Dec 25, 2018, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

She goes to schools that stress creativity - so she gets grades (she didn't for many years - at her other creative school). But the grades are subordinate to experience, exposure, and effort.

It's the high school I wish I attended .

[ansible]

3. Nothing drives me nuts more than "would of"/"could of"

Personally I blame spellcheckers in smartphones

[Rorey]

26. I Swype, and then auto correct makes me look like an idiot.

If I'm in a hurry, I don't always take the time to proofread. It's infuriating and embarrassing when I see later that I've murdered my text.

[CousinIT]

38. I've had BOSSES who use "could of" and "would of"

They evidently don't teach what a damned CONTRACTION is anymore.

OR what nouns, verbs, possessives, sentence structure are... nothing. They just pick up whatever crap is on their cellphone/iPad Instagram, SnapChat feeds. Some kind of digital Ganglish.

[USALiberal]

61. LOL, I cannot imagine your BOSSES opinion of you. nt

[CousinIT]

96. Apparently pretty damn good. Last performance review was "Excellent"

And I got a promotion.

[Codeine]

99. You could of been overlooked for the promotion

but you got the position you should of.

[CousinIT]

104. InstaGramblish, SnapChaglish, Ganglish!

And you used "BOSSES" incorrectly.

In your sentence, it's a possessive, so it's BOSS'S

As for the above, ha-ha.

[treestar]

102. I wonder if the boss thinks your grammar is wrong, or more likely

just does not notice!

[CousinIT]

109. He doesn't think it's wrong.

And I did discuss it with him. He hasn't written "could of" or "would of" since.

For one thing, it's embarrassing to those who work for him when he blasts out 'everyone' emails to announce something important and uses improper English. To make it worse, we're at an institution of higher education. It's just not acceptable.

[DFW]

121. I knew a classics "scholar" from the eastern USA

I saw some study he wrote on some antiquities, and used the phrase "for all intensive purposes" instead of "all intents and purposes." IN WRITING!

I don't even think anyone bothered to call him out on it. So much for our academia....

[Codeine]

141. . . .

[treestar]

142. some other funny ones

take for granite
Bonified

[DFW]

170. Take for granite??

If that was said by someone who graduated the second grade, and was NOT a professional geologist, it's scary news!!

[MountCleaners]

193. It's always disheartening when your boss sends out an e-mail

...and it contains misspellings that shouldn't be committed by a professional with an advanced degree. Currently I work with psychologists who have graduate degrees from good programs and they lack fundamental knowledge and a collegiate command of English. I would be so ashamed if someone let me pass courses without the ability to communicate at a professional level.

I grew up working-class, my dad was a first-generation American and when you come from that immigrant background, you have it drilled into you that you have to "prove them wrong" about your people being illiterate. It's a matter of pride, but there was strong pressure from the whole family to achieve a high degree of competence. I can't imagine even feeling entitled to give others my opinion if I couldn't spell or write clearly. I worked my ass off to go to a good university, had perfect attendance in high school, and missed very few classes in college. I was disillusioned to find out that other people from -good- schools felt no such pride in their work and who make egregious errors that no one from respected university programs ought to make. It was then I learned that promotion in our culture favors people with connections and isn't a real meritocracy.

What's interesting to me is that there are stereotypes in our racist culture of POC and immigrants and their educations, but - I'm sorry to point this out - the ones who parade their poor English are most often white conservatives. I'm telling you, it's entitlement. When they post, they have no sense of pride or of doing right by your people - your family, your community. They don't think twice about making an argument even though it's barely legible. Proof that society promotes people because they're white and go to the "right" church or make the right social connections. There is no sense of shame.

That said, it's important to keep in mind that some people posting online do not have English as their first language. Then there is the automatic spell-checker on smart phones that often screws up words. I've had perfectly intelligent friends make dumb errors.

My favorite was when I was at a party with my cousin Stu and I texted "Stupid is here. He says hi!"

Then there are the texts that come out as filth when you meant something perfectly innocent. I swear to dog.

[Tracer]

53. "Would of" and "Could of" in spoken English is a contraction of "Would have".

But it doesn't excuse people who WRITE it with the "of" instead of the "have".

The use of "loose" instead of "lose" right here on DU is rampant. Please stop.

[CousinIT]

93. +1 n/t

[USALiberal]

57. Maybe just lighten up a little would help. I doubt you ever do not know what they are saying. nt

[Tracer]

65. I don't know if your post was directed at me, but your second sentence is unintelligible.

NT.

[USALiberal]

68. LOL, that was my point. Lighten up!

[treestar]

97. the one I hate is "try and" rather than "try to"

and I think it is getting to the point where it is accepted as correct!

J.K. Rowling used it in the Harry Potter books, and it was not edited out.

[pnwmom]

4. They do, but they're less likely to be assigned whole novels anymore.

I don't know the reasoning behind that, but I think they're really missing out.

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

5. Good question

With the advent of STEM subjects, English and Humanities are wholly neglected. Couple that with the fact that most "language" is actually written through text, little room is left for creativity and attention to the mechanics of language.

[LisaM]

54. Yes, STEM is a culprit....

along with the notion that you have to monetize a college degree. We'd be better off helping to use taxes to lower college costs so that people would go to college to get educations rather than high-paying tech jobs.

[MountCleaners]

197. Do they still diagram sentences in English?

I remember a lot of kids hated that, but I'm grateful for those exercises.

[LeftInTX]

205. No

I never learned. Graduated public school 1974.
Hubby was taught some diagramming in Catholic school, but it was being phased out Catholic schools too. (AKA, he didn't have to learn it to pass)

[raccoon]

6. I suspect a lot of time voice recognition got the wrong word

And the person didn’t catch it.

[crazycatlady]

7. My grammar lessons were busy work

We didn't learn the why behind it, we just wrote sentences 100+ times.

Think the opening scene of The Simpsons.

[Voltaire2]

8. No they are too busy getting on my lawn.

[Sanity Claws]

11. Same here

I have also asked the same questions.

[oberliner]

12. Not so much spelling and grammar

[bobGandolf]

13. Lazy habits for many.

LOUSY SCHOOLS FOR OTHERS.

[Deb]

14. DU membership suppression comes in many forms

[violetpastille]

182. +1

[marybourg]

15. Complete confusion between the subject

I and the object ME.

ME (and him) went shopping.
She gave it to ( my wife and) I.

Lately I've heard a few college profs speak like that on the radio.

[samnsara]

22. my 6th grade teacher always corrected it when we used Me first...

...she said think of it as saying 'Mean Him'..so in other words DONT

[marybourg]

123. The problem isn't putting yourself first.

The problem is using ME as the subject instead of I. He and I went to the store, not ME and him went to the store.

[Codeine]

143. The shortcut I taught my daughter

is to take the other person out of the sentence. If they can understand that “Me and Mary went to the market” becomes “Me went to the market” they’ll be more likely to use the right words.

[marybourg]

154. That's right. If only everyone's mothers and teachers

told them that between the ages of 5 and 8. Repeatedly.

[Ms. Toad]

169. Right trick - but the personal pronoun is always last in the list.

Mary and I (not I and Mary).

Trick works the same, but always put yourself last.

[Codeine]

172. I think that happens naturally

when they use the proper word. The likelihood of saying “I and Mary. . .” seems low.

[Ms. Toad]

184. I've heard it plenty. n/t

[dewsgirl]

51. This is the one that drives me batty.

[curlyred]

55. The use of 'myself' instead of me

As in ‘ she gave the book to myself’. Dear God.

And there is a difference between effect and affect.

[marybourg]

135. Yeah, I think these subject/object confusion problems

came from a generation of English teachers obsessed with eliminating the use of the word “I” as the beginning of every sentence. So, instead of exercising some some creativity, as the teacher hoped, the students simply substituted the object “me”, or the reflexive “myself” for “I”, leading to the abominations we read and hear now.

We’re obviously witnessing one of those changes in English we heard about. Even the educated are sliding into the use of “me” as the subject in sentences with a compound subjuct. Thank heaven we’re not hearing it in single subject sentences yet. Me went to the store is still a no no.

[treestar]

144. Yes, you can divide it into separate sentences

to get the right one. The correct ones for some reason may not sound quite right.

Me and Joe went to the store.

Joe went to the store
I went to the store

So you could see it should be "Joe and I went to the store." "I and Joe" would work but sounds awkward.

[marybourg]

153. It's actually easier than that. I is the subject of a sentence.

I went to the store. He and I went to the store. They and I went to the store. Me is always the object of a sentence. They gave the store to me. They gave the store to Harry, Clare and me. Don’t go by what sounds right. Too many people are confusing I and me and it’s sounding right to them. Soon it starts to sound right to everyone.

[Blue_Adept]

16. I love when this type of thread comes up every few months.

Schools these days! Kids these days! So many on my lawn!

[True Dough]

46. I think we disagreed on something once, Blue_Adept

but I forget what it was. It was certainly the exception, because I find your line of reasoning to be in line with my own almost always.

It is common for older generations to lament how the up-and-comers are going to be the ruination of something or another. I'm trying to avoid becoming one of those people.

Happy holidays to you!

[USALiberal]

64. Good point! Thank you! nt

[USALiberal]

62. I love the grammar whiners. They must have a really easy life to have those complaints. nt

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

17. I teach college film classes

But I’ve also become a grammar tutor. Students do not use paragraphs, do not capitalize proper names and do not know the difference between witch and which. Surprisingly my Asian students often have better language skills and better handwriting.

[groundloop]

25. Speaking of handwriting..... schools have dropped teaching cursive

My son was taught cursive, three years later when my daughter came through they had dropped it. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I find that appalling.

Speaking of college film classes.... my son absolutely loved the two film classes he took. They had little or no relevance to his degree (engineering), but he just ate up learning about lighting, perspective, etc.

[shanti]

147. If I remember correctly

there was a post recently that said that cursive was being reintroduced into the school system. Maybe it's a backlash?

[a la izquierda]

34. I'm a professor of history at a major state university.

I have basically become a grammar and life coach. I'm criticized by customers, ahem students, if I don't help them with every little thing.
I can't wait to find another career (I'm only 41), or conversely, to leave the US to teach in Europe.

[USALiberal]

166. Sounds like you need another job, I agree. Good luck! nt

[USALiberal]

78. You missed a comma after "Surprisingly". Nt

[samnsara]

21. i think a lot of mistakes are when someone uses talk to text..

siri and alexa arent too smart ( shhhhh)

[krispos42]

23. My kid takes Language Arts

8th grader.

I think he has the spelling down okay the problem is he can't compose with a damn.

[SCantiGOP]

24. We don't need no education

Hey, leftyladyfrommo, leave them
kids alone.

[Crazyleftie]

27. whad ya yappin bout.....huh;

eom<<<<dats my coment...

[sinkingfeeling]

28. My junior high granddaughter doesn't understand grammar. Verb

tenses seem beyond her.

[a la izquierda]

35. I have to constantly remind college students...

that events in the past *must* be described using the past tense. I do not care about "literary present," because the students are discussing very dead people and long-past events.

[Codeine]

85. I'm reading a pop history of Waterloo at the moment

and the writer keeps switching between tenses in a periodic misguided attempt to put the reader “in the moment”, but I find it quite jarring. Rather than deepen my understanding of the situation it just changes my focus to an awkward and inappropriate literary device.

[treestar]

101. That is totally a trend now. Any novel I read

that is modern is written in the present. "I go into the kitchen and I make coffee. I drink it." Instead of "I went into the kitchen and I made coffee. I drank it." I am curmudgeonly enough that I don't like it. It sounds affected.

[marybourg]

137. The media is to blame for this.

They’ve completely eliminated the future, past, and compound tenses. Everything is in the simple present. I remember when Pres. Reagan died, hearing on Saturday afternoon on NPR: “The President is buried Wednesday”. I didn’t know if he had been buried the previous Wednesday, or was to be buried the next Wednesday.

[CousinIT]

33. That also racks my nerves! I mean WTH.

Remedial English USED to be taught from First Grade on... WTH DO THEY TEACH kids in school anymore?

[CrispyQ]

103. They teach them conformity & love of money. -nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

36. My dad was born in 1913. He had to quit school after 8th

grade to go to work to support his mother and 2 younger siblings.

He could write well, spell perfectly. recite classic literature by heart, do math and was good at geometry.

I don't think they did extra stuff. They spent all day doing reading, writing and arithmetic.

I was in grade school in the 50's and we had reading, writing and spelling every day. We had math and science every day. We had music and art and physical ed maybe 3 times a week.

That was pretty much it every day.

Junior High and High School we had more choices but we had to take English and math and science no matter what.

[no_hypocrisy]

37. When I sub-taught last week, I had to correct the language teacher for spelling

Grammar as "Grammer". That could be a hint why kids aren't learning the rules. The teachers can't spell and articulate.

[leftyladyfrommo]

39. It is not the kid's fault if the education they receive is

substandard. But they are the ones having to live with it. Having a good education is the key to the door to having a good life.

[moonseller66]

40. It's not only spelling...

Americanese dialect has changed much over the last 50 years.

Then and than are used incorrectly VERY often.
Often (original pronounciation "off en&quot but now "of-ten" whcih sounds more impressive. (Should soften become sof-ten?) Similarly "both" has a mysterious "L" in the middle..."boLth." Sounds sooo much more high strung!

"Many" has become "mini". Many times I've heard sports announcers call that fooball team from Happy Valley "Pin" State. There are "mini" others, 2.

It seems the problem may be laziness in the way people want to speak - having to actually move their tongue or jaw to get the word out - shortening everything so less effort is wasted talking.
With words such as "many", mini can be spoken without actually moving the tongue to pronounce the "a".

Did it start with the "Valley Girls" of the 80s? Mehby?

Just a pet peeve of mine along with others.

Of course the best part of English is the group of Right Wing Morans who used to complain that them damn foriners need to speak Inglish when they can't do it themselves. Hippokrits!

Maybe someone could produce a dictionary of the New English and how to pronounce and spell words we all thought we knew.

Talk at younze, yinz, y'all later.

Meentime, Mirrie Krismas!

[mantis49]

49. Eltse for else.

Aaaarrrgggghh!!

[CountAllVotes]

41. I seriously wonder

I rec'd a Xmas card from a relative's daughter that has two kids.

It looks like the envelope was addressed by one of them.

No punctuation, no nothing.

The apostrophe is missing as part of a surname. When I was a kid, I got my wrists slapped with a ruler and was called "lazy" for leaving that out!

These are home-schooled kids. I am so not impressed!

[leftyladyfrommo]

44. I think home schooling is a problem.

There are kids here in Missouri that are home schooled that do great.

And there are kids who just stay home and babysit while their parents work.

We have a lot of religious families that home school. Those kids can't think their way out of a cereal box.

[CountAllVotes]

47. I fear for them

They are being raised as whiter than white God fearing Christians.

The Xmas card was sickening. It made me want to puke.

Where will these kids be in another 10-15 years? I'll likely be long gone but at least I know how to read and write!

My late father was a topographer. He'd be horrified! Absolutely!

[GemDigger]

94. Have you thought of telling the relatives that they should save their stamp because you are not

grateful/happy/pleased because it wasn't addressed perfectly?

[CountAllVotes]

116. They aren't my relatives

n/t

[Codeine]

98. Are you equally concerned

with the grammar errors in your own post?

[cwydro]

188. Lol.

[jberryhill]

42. It's even worse in other countries

[Codeine]

82. Snort!

[roody]

45. They teach it from first grade on. It takes two to learn it. Nt

[Buckeyeblue]

48. It's not just the kids

I've been in corporate America for years. Grammar issues are not specific to age groups. It's a type of laziness, I've decided.

[Hoyt]

50. Wouldn't judge one's grammar by on-line or text posting. It's too difficult to proofread. Second,

I think the most important thing it whether people are communicating adequately.

I've known people who do not appear to know the difference between "to" and "too," "your" and "your're," etc., who make very valid points. That's what is really important. I do agree it comes across better when grammatically correct, but still . . . . . . .

[WhiskeyGrinder]

52. It's a big world. And online, people are much more focused on content and meaning than

spelling and grammar.

[MineralMan]

63. Spelling and grammar have much to do with content and meaning.

Understanding that is an important step toward using language effectively.

[USALiberal]

67. Not really, most people can figure out what the person is saying. nt

[MineralMan]

69. Yes, really.

Many people have difficulty figuring out what is meant when the statement is correctly spelled and uses correct grammar. If those two things are missing, it's much more difficult.

I see that you write in correct English, though. That's good.

[USALiberal]

70. Many times I do not......

I admit my writing is full of errors many times.

I know your background (Compute!) so I'll just say I write better code than I do sentences.

Merry Christmas!!

[MineralMan]

72. Interestingly enough, computer languages are

unforgiving. Spelling and syntax errors made in coding cause programs to fail.

It's the same with spoken and written languages, really.

[LongtimeAZDem]

92. Sucks syntax /nt

[CrispyQ]

113. I'm having difficulty with your first sentence.

[cwydro]

189. Thank you.

It’s amazing that people think spelling and grammar are unimportant.

[Cold War Spook]

146. Woman without her man is nothing.

Woman, without her, man is nothing. Woman, without her man, is nothing.

[MineralMan]

190. Good example of comma placement.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

95. They do, but they're so fluid, it's generally pretty easy to discern a person's meaning,

especially in the examples provided by the OP.

[MineralMan]

114. OK. I have made my living as a writer for over 50 years.

You're right. Usually, it's possible to figure out what someone means, even if the writing is full of errors. However, that's not always true. Faulty writing often gets misunderstood. It also leaves a poor impression of the writer behind. Finally, people often simply move on when they see poor writing. They don't take the time to figure out what the writer meant to say.

For me, intent is important. If I intend to write something that I hope will be read and understood, I take the time to write it well. Obviously, I could not have earned my living as a writer if I didn't do that.

Still, even for non-professional writers, clarity and accuracy are important, for the second reason I gave. People form impressions of others based on whatever evidence they have. Sloppy writing makes an impression that isn't positive. If that doesn't matter to someone, that's fine. If it does matter, though, taking care to communicate clearly can be very, very important.

[leftyladyfrommo]

126. I would think that was really true if a person was applying

for a job. There are times when a first impression is critical.

What I hear alot here in Missouri is a form of what I call blue collar language. People from working class families often say "I seen that." Or they might say "I have saw that."

They often speak perfect English when necessary. It is just in informal speech that you hear those combinations. Or when they are speaking to friends or family they will use those informal speech patterns.

I used to work with a woman who came from Arkansas. She spoke in a regional dialect and it was beautiful. I used to love to listen to her.

[doc03]

56. No comprende.

They don't even learn to sign their name anymore.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. The other thing is, there have always been people who don't have perfect spelling or grammar. You're

exposed to them more readily because of how we interact online. It’s a difference in exposure, not a worsening in standards. But letting spelling get in the way of a message is a good way to silence people sometimes.

[whistler162]

59. Ain't not no gooder reson two!

[Demsrule86]

60. In most districts, kids take four years of English in high school.

Some of what you describe is typos and spell check failures. Also, kids today often use shortcuts and slang to communicate on social media.

[jayschool2013]

66. Does teaching imply learning?

I teach it. Some learn it. Some don't.

[MineralMan]

71. The ability to communicate clearly is often the key to success

in almost every field. A person who can communicate ideas with clarity will rise to the top. A person who cannot will work for the person who can.

We are no longer teaching that lesson to schoolchildren. They will learn it later, when it is too late.

[CousinIT]

125. +1

The right wing, particularly, is very proud of its own ignorance and illiteracy while branding well-educated kids and college-educated adults as "elitist".

Being proud of illiteracy it itself ignorant. We can't succeed as a nation when we're dominated and "led" by willful ignorance and illiterates.

When simple literacy has gone out of style, we're a failing state, IMO. Presidents like the current one who cannot even read are unacceptable.

Besides requiring a psychiatric exam and publicly released tax returns (minimum 5 years), any candidate for President should also have to take a damn literacy test to determine if he or she can write, read, and do basic math. And NO I'm NOT kidding.

Also, PSAs encouraging people to learn to read and write should return. "Reading is Fundamental" used to be an often-seen PSA.

[kskiska]

73. Not knowing the difference between "imply and infer,"

expressions like "tow the line," instead of "toe the line." Another one I see frequently is "all of the sudden," instead of "all of a sudden."

[cwydro]

77. Allude and elude.

Drives me nuts.

And DU favorite “here, here!” No dears, the expression is “hear, hear.”

[USALiberal]

83. Seriously, this bothers you? nt

[violetpastille]

183. Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

If people are pleased with their own educations and levels of learning, that's great.

Congratulations and may they enjoy the feeling of superiority. I guess?

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

194. "Bare with me."

As well as “grisly bear,” and “grizzly crime scene.”

Maybe I just have a problem with bears getting naked?

[cwydro]

74. On the first page of GD on any given day, there are usually at least two spelling errors.

Today is no different.

[Codeine]

81. DU is the Official Home of "Could of"

and “should of.”

Those phrases drive me up the fucking wall.

[cwydro]

195. Lol!

And “tow” the line. “Here, here.” I could go on, but my head might explode!

[Codeine]

75. Considering I see the same thing in every age group

I would ascribe the phenomena to our increased reliance on text-based communication more than anything else.

In other words, the majority of people have always been semi-literate at best, but now we have more opportunity to notice because our way of communicating has shifted to text, social media posts, and email.

[MineralMan]

84. I seen lotsa that when I was at school to.

[treestar]

108. +1

That's exactly it - it could be studied, but it may be that the errors are not a sign that more people don't know grammar and spelling. They are merely exposed where they would not have been before.

[LongtimeAZDem]

76. "And no punctuation." This comment is not a complete sentence. /nt

[Codeine]

79. Sentence fragments for the win! nt

[CrispyQ]

86. We need more login screens like this:

[mcar]

87. It's not just younger generations

I see such grammatical abuses all over the internet - even here, for the 16 years I've been here.

[Dave Starsky]

107. I see alot of mistakes on DU.

Thank God my spelling's alright.

[mcar]

130. ...

[treestar]

88. they do but the bad habits come from texting

that is my theory. And spell check and auto correct. Then they don't notice the kinds of errors those two things don't pick up on.

Then they don't bother to proofread if it is just texts or posts online.

I have young persons in my family who ask me to help proofread college papers. I don't think it is so much that they don't know as that they need too proofread better. Remember they are typing everything where we wrote. And if we typed, it was on a manual or electric typewriter where it was harder to correct errors. Therefore we were more careful the first time. Whiteout was not as easy as being able to go back and redo like you can in a word processor.

[Codeine]

89. Did you do that on purpose

just to set our teeth on edge?

[treestar]

110. LOL!

An example right their! I do not proofread my DU post's! I would of noticed if I had reread!

[ProfessorGAC]

192. That Was Pretty Clever!

I just knew you were doing that purposely.

[CrispyQ]

115. LOL. I had totally forgotten about typewriter errors!

And if you had carbon copies, it was a real PITA!

I had a job filling out multiple-copied shipping forms. The first few weeks I spent part of my lunch hour practicing typing, especially numbers.

[MineralMan]

128. I had a clerical job for a short time. Basically, I was a secretary.

My boss hated visible corrections on letters and memos. If I made a mistake, I had to retype the document. I quickly slowed down my typing a bit to prevent errors. I hated retyping. That work experience made me a much better typist and, later, keyboarder. I sure hated it at the time, though.

[LongtimeAZDem]

140. "I had a clerical job for a short time." Me too; I was a minister. :D /nt

[LeftInTX]

208. Liquid Paper...White Out etc

I typed my husband's Master's thesis as he was writing the damn thing.

I was so mad. I just had a baby and we also had a toddler in the house.

[Blue_true]

100. I have a niece who is a teacher.

She says that teachers can't give kids homework anymore in our county (red county). Also, she has to occasionally help high school kids count out correct change when she passes through checkout lines in stores.

I am not one of the "let's go back to 1950 types, a lot of things were done wrong then as I read the history of that period). But there are BASIC things that underpin a society, the ability to read, write, perform arithmetic and math, being able to comprehend what one reads.

[Codeine]

105. The counting change thing is inevitable

in a society that has moved largely into a post-cash economy.

As to language use and reading comprehension I think there is a bit of a “rose-colored glasses” thing going on here; most people at any given moment in our history have been barely-functional with the written word. Forums like this self-select for people comfortable with long-form written communication, but most people in every age group are simply incapable of expressing themselves in complete, grammatical sentences, and I contend that it has always been so.

[Blue_true]

119. You make sound arguments. Literacy at writing, reading, math has always been an issue.

There are countries in the world where intelligence is valued, our's has never been one of them, IMO. Our technological prowess comes from a very tiny segment of the population and is concentrated on the coasts in rather small geographical areas.

When it comes to things like reading, math, expression through words, I can become somewhat of a romantic. But your more sober analysis is much closer to reality.

[CousinIT]

118. Public schools have been starved for money & ignorance promoted as acceptable by the RW for decades

And intelligence and higher education branded as "elitist".

I think that's a big part of it.

Sure, culture changes and new slang words plus things like "hashtags" show up that didn't exist before. But English is just English and sadly most Americans under 35 or 40 don't know how to speak THEIR OWN language. We've had at least two Republicans presidents now who cannot even READ.

Illiteracy? That's not something to be proud of IMO.

It's something needless, shameful, and that needs to be corrected ASAP.

[Blue_true]

122. Codeine made some good points, iliteracy in this country has always been higher that in many

European countries. Here the loudest voices prevail, not always the smartest voices.

Conservatism and learning have never been able to coexist, even if one throw socalled intellectual conservatives like Buckley and Will into the mix. That is why republicans see more upside in attacking schools and defunding them when they gain power.

[mcar]

159. In our school district (red county), it's the opposite

Even early elementary students get homework; older students get way too much. It doesn't seem to help.

[Mariana]

171. If they're giving the kids homework for the sake of giving them homework

It's not going to help, and is much more likely to do the opposite. The kids know perfectly well when their homework is bullshit busywork, and they come to resent the hell out of being made to waste so much of their time on it. They lose respect for their teachers, their schools, and education in general.

[leftyladyfrommo]

117. There is a difference between formal and informal language.

People here often are just using informal language. Sentences are shortened but everyone knows what they mean. I don't have any problem with that. And people use area colloquialisms that are common for their part of the country . We often use shortened forms of language in every day conversations. We wouldn't use it in a formal document.

The thing that bothers me is all the incorrect spellings and answers that are just one long sentence with no capitals, no commas, no any kind of punctuation.

[LeftInTX]

207. I think most of the internet is informal

Also constantly writing informally is probably causing a decrease in grammar skills.

I used to be an excellent speller.

Now I'm no longer a decent speller. It is amazing what the past 20 years have done to my spelling skills. It's almost is if I have "spelling dementia" or something. I was never good at grammar, but I was a top-notch speller.

[Delarage]

120. "seen" versus "saw" annoys me....

For those of us who get/share information through writing, I don't think it's "whining" to be annoyed by poorly constructed text. And I get annoyed by shitty writing regardless of the writer's age. I personally get annoyed when someone says "I seen this guy running down the street after the gunshots" (should be "I saw...." ).

[leftyladyfrommo]

133. I wrote about that earlier. Around here that is common.

It really is part if a regional dialect. People often use those combinations in informal conversation.

[Delarage]

136. Oops....

I wish I could say I saw your post, but I missed it.

[leftyladyfrommo]

138. No. I just put it put there a few minutes ago.

That goes along with " He don't ."

It is interesting to hear linquists talk about regional or social dialects. You can tell a lot about someone from their speech patterns.

[demigoddess]

152. some of those are regional. My husband says excape instead of escape. It drives me

nuts, but that seems to be a NY state thing. You would not have heard it in Kansas.

[marybourg]

156. He's *saying* escape.

He’s just *pronouncing* it eX-cape.

[JCMach1]

124. No they take English testing thanks to W

And Obama

[WeekiWater]

127. I know a couple of people in their early twenties...

Who are amazing writers. Public school educated. Much better than I. I also know some with really poor grammar. A lot of variables go into this. I would have to see some research to believe it is historically different over the last 75 years or so.

Older generations often recognize the worst about younger generations. Seems to be human nature.

[CrispyQ]

149. I'll bet the writers are also readers.

Reading naturally gives you a familiarity with language. I've found readers are generally better at expressing themselves.

[treestar]

155. Very true

A lot of errors I see make me think "this person must not read much."

[TheBlackAdder]

129. My linguistics professor would say, a message conveyed and understood successfully used the language

.

The rest is up to the grammar police to pursue.


Most people know the differences, but there are brain farts that everyone experiences from time to time.

Errors are further exacerbated by hastily written words and spell checkers rewriting what is typed.

When writing papers, I could proofread it a dozen times, reading forwards and backwards, which captures most errors. Even then, after a final submission, there are always one or two things that need correction. As one writes, they often see the words they think, that is why immediate proofreading is only marginally successful. The best is to put the paper down, and move onto something else, and revisit it later, so the errors pop out. The other is to have someone else proofread it, but time is a factor and most do not have the time to spend proofing a paper adequately, especially if one is doing it as a favor to another.

.

[Funtatlaguy]

132. My favorites are:

I done it.
I seen it.

Both very commonplace where I live.
Sad.

[Ciaphas Cain]

134. Volunteer for tutoring

A good tutor can go a long way, and I encourage everyone who has the free time to volunteer!

[TooManyDucks]

145. Why Pick On the Kids?

I be seeing that it ain't just being kids who use the bad English it be's people of all ages and political perswayjuns.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

148. Texting has a lot to do with it.

I was subbing in an English class where the students were writing fiction short stories. They failed to capitalize the pronoun "I" and state names, names in general, and pretty much everything else that should begin with a capital letter. They even had to be told that a sentence begins with a capital letter and ends with punctuation.

After reading the stories-in-progress, I asked, "How many are writing stories based on video games?" It was nearly all the boys. "How many are writing about their best friend?" About half the girls raised their hands. "How many are killing their best friend in their story?" About half of that half (much to the chagrin of their former best friends).

Capitalization was the consistent bugaboo, however, and that I attribute to their obsession with texting.

[demigoddess]

151. what drives me NUTS is the use of women when they mean one WOMAN

[IcyPeas]

157. Anymore do kids take English in school?

I hear people doing this often (starting with "anymore" instead of ending with it). I am not sure if this is correct or not, but to my ears it always sounds weird.

[NastyRiffraff]

158. Random use of 's

Used when it's not possessive. The most extreme example I've seen, and it was on a business sign. Not a hand-lettered one, something they paid for:

"Exclusively Your's"

I pointed it out to the owner of the new shop since I assumed he had paid for a completely wrong sign. He told me he didn't see what was wrong with it, so I gave up.

[mcar]

160. I have been a writer and editor my entire 30+ year career

Mostly healthcare and nonprofit, some corporate communications. Over the years, I have had corporate CEOs ask little underpaid me to edit their memos, and write and proofread their work.

It's not "kids today."

[Ms. Toad]

163. Oh - but poor grammar and spelling are a sure way to identify the infiltrating morans . . .

Seriously, though, it is not just Republicans who need basic spelling and grammar lessons.

[Persondem]

164. Smart phones equal dumb people

Google "digital dementia" and this is one of the links you will find ...

https://www.nontoxicliving.tips/blog/are-you-experiencing-digital-dementia ... from the link ...

According to Kaiser Foundation, elementary-age children use entertainment technology for an average of 7.5 hours a day.

75% of these children have televisions in their bedrooms
68% of two-year-olds regularly use tablets
59% have smartphones
44% have game consoles.

Note that the above stats are for elementary aged and younger children.

[Codeine]

174. Except there have always been dumb people.

“Digital dementia” is pseudoscientific balderdash.

[Persondem]

175. Did you follow the link? I doubt it, ... cuz cigarettes were good for people for 100 years.

We know that eight hours or more of daily Internet involvement with video games is correlated with brain shrinkage
and damage in adolescents. We know that American children in general are already at this threshold of use, averaging between seven and eight hours of screen time daily.

from ... https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/44832931/1-s2.0-S1550830713003479-main.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1545793900&Signature=lR%2BK4vCdDgtDx0bWZyfYitIcSWA%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DThe_governmentality_of_master_planning_h.pdf

Here's an concise article with 20 or so references ... http://www.mrshatzi.com/topics/cell-phones-in-class/articles/10-reasons.pdf

I see this everyday. I teach in a high school and have done so for 20+ years. Smart phones are like crack and do get in the way of young people learning.

Feel free to back up your opinion with some research.

[FreeState]

168. I'm nearly 50 years old disagree with almost every post in this thread

Can anyone show me peer reviewed studies that conclude spelling or grammar are signs of intelligence or education level?


http://spellingsociety.org/uploaded_bulletins/spq84-1image-bulletin.pdf

[Bucky]

178. Thank you

There's always Francis Bacon's "writing maketh a careful man" but generally speaking most people associate intelligence more with political agreement with themselves rather than grammatic mastery of the English tongue.

That said, "the current generation is going to hell in a handbasket" is a pretty old complaint.

[jimlup]

179. The do but folks don't care enough to actually learn it

that is because software now does it but doesn't do those subtle fixes.

[onlyadream]

202. I've come in contact with many teachers who get the homophones wrong

And many are the ones who teach it! I’ve mostly seen “to” being used as “too”, and it kills me because 4th grade teachers should know this!

[McCamy Taylor]

206. Might be a dyslexia or a right brain dominance things. Left handedness is on the rise.

I am basically ambidextrous. I could do math--i.e. "make change" as a toddler---and I am never lost. Ask me which direction is north, even inside a building and I will know. But I had trouble learning to read, and I still catch myself making basic spelling and grammar errors if I go too quickly. And I am a professional writer.

I think not all brains are wired the same way.

[Phentex]

209. One of the worst offenders has not posted in this thread.

Interesting.