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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall
Facts at your fingertips. Perhaps this will be helpful to someone.
https://medium.com/@vickyalvearshecter/what-happened-when-a-trump-supporter-challenged-me-about-the-wall-e54e86a5edd1?fbclid=IwAR2UWIlB91jedfIkaMZ34wc5fCuLgcvOiJcYnS2d_cGFhOQkNtqQ-TH_S9o
What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall
Vicky Alvear Shecter
Dec 27
Existing barriers in California.
A conservative challenged liberal Facebook friends to make a case, not based on emotion against Trumps wall. Conservative buddies flooded his post with snide remarks about how this would be impossible for deluded libs.
Okay, Ill play, I responded. And in order to avoid being accused of bias, I explained that I would use only conservative sources to prove my point. My primary source was a policy paper by the Cato Institute, a conservative, rightwing think tank, along with other conservative voices (listed at the end of the piece). Heres why Im against the wall, I wrote:
2. Most illegal immigrants are overstayers. They come to the US legally for vacations, business, to study, etc. and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!
3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.
4. Its environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.
5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land and the legal battles that would ensue are incalculable.
6. Border patrol agents dont like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they cant mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.
7. Border patrol agents say, Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up. Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually after the wall is built to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, thats the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?
Are we seriously going to model ourselves on East Germany and their wall? A 1979 celebration in E. Berlin.
8. Where walls have been built, there was no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens. In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.
9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done. Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs. And if seasonal worker do get in, a wall makes it harder for them to leave! A wall traps migrant farm laborers in our country.
10. Trumps $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And thats only for 700 miles. Whatever we think its going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.
11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphys Law), that means were really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesnt even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?
As the conservatives of the Cato Institute put it, President Trumps wall would be a mammoth expenditure that would have little impact on illegal immigration. (Emphasis mine) Also it would create many direct harms: the spending, the taxes, the eminent domain abuse, and the decrease in immigrants freedoms of movement.
And, we must add, since conservative sources do not that the environmental harms are likely to be severe.
In other words, the facts show that walls dont work and they create even bigger, more expensive problems.
So what happened after I posted this conservative-sourced, fact-based list of why the wall is a bad idea?
Silence.
I waited for someone to respond, to engage with me. Where were the angry defenses or rebuttals? But when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldnt find it.
My FB friend had deleted it. You could say, like Trump with the government, he shut me down rather than deal with the facts.
The ugly genius of Trump is his ability to manipulate deep, primal emotions namely fear and hate. He, along with Fox News, have convinced his base that they are in extreme danger from immigrants and only a wall will make them safe.
Unfortunately, the need to feel safe is much stronger than the will to grapple with a complex, multi-faceted problem.
And so, here we are, paralyzed by shutdowns at every turn.
The Cato Institute: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work
Former Reagan staffer and Tea-Party liaison: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/10/12/the-conservative-case-against-a-border-fence-trying-to-stop-illegal-immigration-with-a-really-big-fence-would-be-a-futile-waste-of-money
Chicago Tribune (conservative paper): https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-wall-mexico-immigration-20180314-story.html
The National Review (conservative magazine): https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/donald-trump-border-wall-plan-ridiculous-guaranteed-failure/
Nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute (MPI) think tank: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/borders-and-walls-do-barriers-deter-unauthorized-migration
Girard442
(6,070 posts)It's about people showing their loyalty to their tribe and getting a win against the other tribe. Facts, history, science, financial estimates -- all just noise to these people. They're not interested.
It's like all the reichwing causes: you can't persuade them or compromise with them -- you have to meet them head-on and defeat them.
TheBlackAdder
(28,186 posts).
The Bible does not affirm a stance of anti-abortion, in fact it affirms that life doesn't exist until birth.
The churches use anti-abortion as an emotional wedge issue to galvanize, retain and fleece congregants. Over the past 50 years, church attendance has been waning and there is immense pressure to keep the coffers full, which means their pews. Since the late 60s, churches have come under increased attack from free-thinkers who challenge the systems of government and society.
The wall is no different. The GOP is facing increased pressure, a section of Whites are perceiving the change of demographics as a threat, since they probably feel that the way they treat others will be returned on par, once power is lost. Their panicking and trying what they can to solidify their base. Trump is only interested in appeasing his base, not the whole of the country. The GOP loves Russia because they are trying to create a pure White Christian society, much how they desire America to become. Part of conservativism is not to develop and advance, which is the cornerstone of life. These people are not interested in changing, they want things to remain the same, so they must be willing to make those choices, and with close-nit communities, that will be difficult, as the communities will force a correction to remain.
.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the womans husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -- Exodus 21:22-25
This says that if someone accidentally hits a pregnant woman, causing her to miscarry, he shall be given the same punishment as for property damage. Injury to the woman is treated as if it were an assault on her. Clearly, the fetus is not considered to be a human being. And the sages of the Talmud took this, and said that one only becomes a human being when one is born.
TheBlackAdder
(28,186 posts).
Those passages amount to just a small fine.
The anti-abortion "Pro-Lifers" try to use the one instance you've cited to show an eye for an eye, meaning that there should be punishment for the death of a fetus.
Others try to say that God knows all at conception, there are passages about the sand rising up to form the fetus, since they had no concept of how conception occurred back then. These passages can be easily discounted, as God allows pregnant mothers to die in catastrophes, disease, illness, etc., which is part of God's plan. An abortion might have also been in God's plan too.
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Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)But it's the punishment for destroying property, not the punishment for taking a life.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)
But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this cursemay the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.
sounds actually "pro" abortion
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)Anyone intelligent, involved in politics,starting at the local level, always knew Trump was a buffoon. Did he get so any votes due to "The Apprentice." It's possible. He still lost the popular vote (don't get me started about the Electoral College). Having been on the phone with voters during several presidential elections, my faith in the average voter has been blown. Granted the majority are reasonable, but probably one in four or five are totally clueless. More than once I've had women tell me that they vote as their husbands and/or fathers tell them ( In the 21st century)! I've had men tell me, absolutely convinced, that Obama was born in Kenya. As a longtime teacher, I know that far too many students can be resistant to learning, and many parents are threatened by critical thinking. I have, sadly, begun to throw in the towel.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Dont think of it as throwing in the towel. Think of it as wising up to the correct use of your energy, where the results really do count.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)That wall will never be built and Trump knows it. He keeps calling for a wall because of the promises he made at his rally; now his Deplorables are demanding that wall. (Oddly, they're not demanding that Mexico pay for it!)
The wall myth is slowly falling apart; now it's steel slats (that are beautiful!), or as Nancy Pelosi brilliantly put it a "beaded curtain." Lindsay Graham is now calling it "border security."
But, 800,000 federal workers aren't getting paid because of a fantasy wall.
Glorfindel
(9,728 posts)"when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldnt find it. when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldnt find it. My FB friend had deleted it."
Of course the FB "friend" deleted the post. tRump's deplorables don't want to be bothered with facts.
Ohiogal
(31,984 posts)I am archiving it so I can pull it out and have facts at my fingertips if I ever get into it with a Deplorable.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,056 posts)Have never archived anything, so have no idea how to do it, and definitely want to access this again. And where do I find it after I archive it?
Thanks!
Hekate
(90,658 posts)To retrieve it later, go to the top of your screen page, where it has a line of personal-to-you tabs: My Profile My Account My Bookmarks My Inbox. Click on My Bookmarks and this thread should show up.
That's the only thing that comes to mind for archiving on the site.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,056 posts)I had hit that tab, but was looking for a place on DU where it went. As usual, the simplest explanation is the right one!
llmart
(15,536 posts)This post is bookmark worthy as far as I'm concerned. I will be sharing it.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)I've been cobbling together my own list but this is much better.
Everyone should copy it and use it all over the net, over and over.
Batter them with it!!
And pass it along.
irisblue
(32,969 posts)onethatcares
(16,166 posts)on another site where the stupid runs deep?
babylonsister
(171,057 posts)for attribution.
3Hotdogs
(12,374 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Iggo
(47,551 posts)They feel like shit and they think the only way to not feel like shit is to make someone else feel like shit.
FuzzyRabbit
(1,967 posts)Trump has probably heard of Hadrian's Wall, and of course the Great Wall of China. He wants a monument to himself so that future generations can remember his greatness.
Of course Trump's Wall is a pie-in-the-sky idea with no chance of being financed and built, but Trump is too stupid to know that.
Doitnow
(1,103 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)and there are a lot more reasons for no wall. Wasn't it Bush who pushed for the wall and I remember the property owners along the border who were fighting against eminent domain.
I mean the wall may be the dumbest idea I have ever seen proposed by anyone.
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity." General George Patton.
lostnfound
(16,176 posts)Archae
(46,323 posts)He knows it won't be long before he dies, and so many of his "legacies" are gone, exposed as frauds, or no longer labeled with his name.
He wants the "Trump Wall" as his last shot at "immortality."
DontBooVote
(901 posts)Fact is...the reality is...his immortality is already cemented into American history. This disgraceful, loathsome cancer of a human being's name will be forever repeated in the halls of education, the chambers of congresses, the annals of history and journalism and media and entertainment. his name and ideology will forever be looked upon as if a deity by legions of those whose hearts and minds are just as poisoned; he will be their hero for the rest of the existence of this nation.
For the rest of our existence, this...cretin...will haunt our lives and will act as a cancer on our society and our discourse. And, I, for one, am heartbroken over this new reality.
llmart
(15,536 posts)Doesn't mean it's something to be proud of. Trump will be right there next to the other evil beings that have gone before him or after. I also hope Dick Cheney's name is as tainted as Trump's.
Martin Eden
(12,864 posts)These facts and critical analysis need to be at the forefront of the national discussion.
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)ancianita
(36,032 posts)LittleGirl
(8,284 posts)I have bookmarked it for future use as I'm sure it will come in handy soon.
It's so weird that 30 yrs after "tear down that wall", the new communist in the WH wants to build another one. Actually, it's more like Stephen Miller wants it and IQ45 is just doing his bidding. I really hate those people.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,328 posts)Haggis for Breakfast
(6,831 posts)PatSeg
(47,418 posts)Thanks for posting.
Bayard
(22,062 posts)thanks!
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)dalton99a
(81,455 posts)B Stieg
(2,410 posts)Love your work, B. Sister. Thank you, again!
homegirl
(1,428 posts)congratulate you and borrow your very comprehensive and superbly documented post?
Grammy23
(5,810 posts)Sadly, many (maybe most) of those who need to read it with understanding would rather deal in empty rhetoric or raw emotion. Facts and logic hold no place in their toolbox of ways to solve a problem. And tRump knows this so he keeps hammering them with fear and distortions. Keep them ginned up to fight a stupid battle and ignore solutions that might work.
I suppose with time they will get tired of the fight and cooler heads will prevail. I hope the House will stick to their plan and not give one thin dime to tRump. That will enrage him more but we know he flails and loses his tiny mind when he does not get his way.
The tRump Wall is a stupid waste of resources and apt to cause even more problems. It wont solve the immigration problems either. I dont expect the tRump base to understand this but the Wall can be put off, delayed or stopped until they get distracted by some other booger bear thought up by tRump.
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)thanks!
Javaman
(62,521 posts)hwmnbn
(4,279 posts)This is bookmarked for future reference.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,569 posts)I hope to be able to share with the more conservative members of my family and so on................. Thanks!
FM123
(10,053 posts)Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)cab67
(2,992 posts)It was a mine field bordered by two walls. There were booby traps, and the sand covering the mine field wea raked smooth daily - that way, footprints could be spotted.
As people grew more creative in their efforts to get through, East German officials had to keep upgrading and improving the walls structure. That probably cost a fortune.
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)The whole idea of a wall for trump has absolutely nothing to do wether its effective or not. It has everything to do with demonstrating an ability to bend government to his knees and fulfilling campaign promise. E.g. as soon as the wall is built, he will be lying to no end how border crossings have diminished, etc.
cab67
(2,992 posts)the Berlin Wall actually had pre-made soft points so that tanks could break through and allow Warsaw Pact forces to get through should war break out with NATO.
Initech
(100,065 posts)"Those who are willing to trade freedom for security don't deserve either. "
Usually shuts them up!
cab67
(2,992 posts)We can criminalize the sale and possession of narcotics all we want. We can make the sentences stiffer, confiscate property, and have the police act increasingly militaristically toward dealers until weve bankrupted the country, and it wont do jack shit as long as we ignore the root causes of addiction and drug use.
Want to curtail border crossings? How about addressing the poverty and violence that drive people in Latin America toward the border in the first place.
Elwood P Dowd
(11,443 posts)ffr
(22,669 posts)Which completely ignores the fact that you 100% nailed their flimsy argument in one reply.
Good job!
tblue37
(65,336 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Thank you for posting this babylonsister!
trixie2
(905 posts)"How do you know it's not just about keeping people out but also to keep us in and isolated?" At what point, if this continues, will we be unable to leave the country? Calling back the troops from around the world and then using troops within the country is startling.
PatrickforO
(14,570 posts)a recent poll that they would definitely vote for Trump again. Fifty-one million. This is 22% of the registered voters. Twenty-two percent.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/423100-poll-finds-33-percent-would-definitely-or-likely-back-Trump-for-reelection
That's a lot of racists. Another 11% said they would 'probably vote' for Trump again in 2020. That's another 25 million really low information voters.
Thirty-three percent said they would definitely vote for the Democrat in the race. That's 77.6 million what I call yellow dogs. You oldsters will know what I mean when I say that. Then, another 11% (25 million) would 'probably' vote for the Democrat opposing Trump.
Last I looked, there are 235 million registered voters in the US. In presidential elections lately, we're hovering around 60% for the ones where the incumbent was term limited (61.6% in 2008, and 60.1% in 2016).
Eleven percent said they would vote third party and thirteen percent are 'unsure.' (How the HELL could you POSSIBLY be unsure??? Sigh.)
But people have very strong feelings, either for or against, Trump. So maybe turnout will get up around 65% in 2020. If it does, then that means around 153 million people will vote, give or take. So let's take out the 'probably's' because they are mugwumps and what do we have? The bases.
Trump: 51 million
Democrat: 77.6 million
Third party: 25 million
So how many of the mugwumps will probably vote? Who knows? But 51 + 77.6 + 25 = 153.6 million.
Fifty one million racist, xenophobic, homophobic spittle-spraying deplorables, all in a big basket full of guns.
But, hey, we still have a year to go. I'm sure more people will become alienated at Trump as time goes by. He's just SO detestable. Plus several economic authorities are pointing at a potentially big upcoming recession, coupled with a debt crisis that forces austerity on any Keynesian moves (to keep the government the 'spender of last resort'). The Fed won't have enough leeway for an effective QE program, either. So by this time next year, millions will be suffering from the unbelievable fiscal irresponsibility of the GOP. Some economists are even predicting 'stagflation,' a situation where we face really high interest rates and rapid inflation, along with high unemployment. Sounds great, right? THAT'S WHAT REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC POLICY DOES!!!! WHEN WILL WE EVER LEARN???
The good news then? We'll probably win the election in 2020, turn more states blue and maybe even win the Senate.
The bad news? Newly elected Democrats are gonna have a pretty big fucking mess to clean up. A historically big fucking mess. Probably at least as big as Obama had in '08.
calimary
(81,220 posts)A keeper. For sure!
PS: Ive noticed that I havent heard much lately from the few conservatives I know. One friend hasnt said peep about politics for weeks. Ever since the Cohen cookie crumbled a few Fridays ago. This is one of the same people whove been insisting theres no evidence... for at least a couple of years.
xor
(1,204 posts)Actually, facts don't seem to matter to many people in general when it comes politics.
denvine
(799 posts)Unfortunately trumpsters don't care about facts, but we do. I have copied for future reference.
thucythucy
(8,047 posts)Excellent post, and excellent illustration of how Trumpsters "argue"--name calling and straw men, followed by cowardly flight and shutting down the debate when presented with a real argument.
I think the perfect metaphor for current Republicans was Clint Eastwood "debating" an empty chair and pretending it was President Obama. Because an empty chair is the only opponent against which Republican arguments can prevail.
Hekate
(90,658 posts)sellitman
(11,606 posts)Bookmarked to use against the Trumpistas.
Nitram
(22,794 posts)I, too, have been met with total silence.
Hamlette
(15,411 posts)Talitha
(6,582 posts)Humpty Trumpty wants a big wall,
Humpty Trumpty, hes gonna fall.
All of his Repugs and all of his base
Are gonna see Trumpty fall flat on his face.
marble falls
(57,079 posts)Cheviteau
(383 posts)about a wall. It's been said, and correctly so, that he doesn't care anything about a wall on the southern border. He wants a fight with the Democrats about a wall. He believes he can win that fight Politically, with or without a wall. Anything, dear lord, anything, to divert attention away from his soon to be fat ass going to prison. Oh, and don't argue with fools. You may be mistaken for one. But your very good research has educated we DU readers. Thanks.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)Best of Luck with the Wall
Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)No one responded to it with arguments, they just put laughing emoji faces.
Interesting, I posted the CATO link on DU right after that and didn't get one like or response.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211571674
trueblue2007
(17,210 posts)UpInArms
(51,282 posts)I found the same thing ... rather that civil debate, the deletion of all thought
I deactivated Facebook a couple of months ago
I dont miss it
I do really hope you, and all here, have a marvelous 2019
tclambert
(11,085 posts)That is why criminal business people hire illegals. If the fine were $1,000,000, no one would risk hiring an illegal immigrant, and they would triple check they didn't hire any illegals by accident.
A million dollar fine probably wouldn't survive an 8th Amendment challenge ("excessive fines shall not be imposed" . But a $50,000 fine, roughly equal to the median income in America (for a man), might be ruled reasonable, since the illegal immigrant would presumably be taking a job away from an American. What business person, even a criminal, would risk a fine that size?
Lithos
(26,403 posts)We all know the wall is just an expression of extreme xenophobia (racism primarily towards Hispanics).
You've covered the immigration part.
But what about drugs? That's the next bit down the argument chain where people from Mexico are also all criminals. To be honest, most of the drugs are coming in via shipments and organized cartels which are unrelated to immigration, often involve US citizens, and are not limited to border crossings. I've just started my collection here - but do you come across any good links along those lines.
L-
babylonsister
(171,057 posts)Undocumented Immigration, Drug Problems, and Driving Under the Influence in the United States, 19902014
Michael T. Light PhD, Ty Miller MS, and Brian C. Kelly PhD
Author affiliations, information, and correspondence details
Accepted: April 23, 2017
Published Online: August 08, 2017
Objectives. To examine the influence of undocumented immigration in the United States on 4 different metrics of drug and alcohol problems: drug arrests, drug overdose fatalities, driving under the influence (DUI) arrests, and DUI deaths.
Methods. We combined newly developed state-level estimates of the undocumented population between 1990 and 2014 from the Center for Migration Studies with arrest data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports and fatality information from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Underlying Cause of Death database. We used fixed-effects regression models to examine the longitudinal association between increased undocumented immigration and drug problems and drunk driving.
Results. Increased undocumented immigration was significantly associated with reductions in drug arrests, drug overdose deaths, and DUI arrests, net of other factors. There was no significant relationship between increased undocumented immigration and DUI deaths.
Conclusions. This study provides evidence that undocumented immigration has not increased the prevalence of drug or alcohol problems, but may be associated with reductions in these public health concerns.
******************************
The Myth of the Criminal Immigrant - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/30/upshot/crime-immigration-myth.html
Mar 30, 2018 - The link between immigration and crime exists in the imaginations of ... Every day, sanctuary cities release illegal immigrants, drug dealers, ... New York at Buffalo, researchers compared immigration rates with crime rates for ...
*************************
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show
May 2, 20185:09 AM ET
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There's lots more in the google...
Poiuyt
(18,122 posts)Journeyman
(15,031 posts)DonaldsRump
(7,715 posts)Have already sent this to many people.
This is EXACTLY the kind of messaging the Ds need to get out regarding "the wall."
rpannier
(24,329 posts)Hermit-The-Prog
(33,328 posts)(can't R again)
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2019, 03:10 AM - Edit history (1)
I hope you do not mind I have copied it and I have pasted it on sites like TheHill in response to right-wingers.
Such a great job summarizing the issue and providing references I love you!