I'll go there....

[DonRedwood]

I have noticed that nobody ever talks about Romney’s religion. I am a strong believer that one of the strongest pillars of our society is the freedom of religion. It is essential that a person be able to follow their faith in order to achieve their pursuit of happiness. Nobody should pick someone else’s faith, nobody should be forced or coerced or subtly led to follow any church however and so we must balance the freedom of religion with the separation of church and state.

But that does not mean we cannot discuss a person’s religion. It does not mean we cannot be liberal and believe in freedom of religion and still think that a person’s religious followings can be part of the evaluation of the person.

The Mormon church is a new church. It was founded in America. It is something that we have all watched grow during our lifetimes. Mitt Romney is a leader of the church. He rubs elbows with the highest of their echelon. He is/was a Mormon Bishop. He was a missionary whose job it was was to sell the church to new followers. Anyone who runs for President of the United States and is an official leader of a church, brings that church and its beliefs into the political spectrum. Added to this is the tithe of 10% that his church requires. Romney gives a huge amount of money to his church and as a Presidential candidate following that money is also something that is acceptable. Romney is not a passive follower of his religion. He is a leader at the top and he helps set the tone and policies.

It is wrong to go into a private person’s history, finances and religion and discuss them for no reason. It is not wrong to do the same thing with someone who wants me to vote for him to run my country and represent me to the rest of the world.

This said, there are things about Romney’s faith that concern me. There are tenants in the Mormon church that I do not understand. The history of the golden tablets that no one is allowed to see, the Prophet whose words become canon in the church, the belief that Jesus was in America, the tithe and the tithe’s ability for a person to basically purchase a better level of heaven, the underwear and those are just the things I know are true. I’ve heard much sillier (moms become planets if they have lots of kids?) but I’ve never researched them so except for that one example, I won’t bring them up.
In Romney’s own world none of this would matter to me. I have Mormon friends. Every religion has some kooky stuff if you take things out of context or don’t know the meanings of them. Some things are kooky even when you do know the meanings of them. I grew up Catholic so, believe me there is LOTS of kooky stuff there too…

But mostly I am disturbed by the tithing. Romney was a missionary. His job was to sell the Mormon church and its tithe to people. He taught people that the only way to the top floors was through the tithe. If you wanted the penthouse view you were going to have to buy it. Even as a missionary the man was doing his best to squeeze pennies out of everyone that he could. As a bishop he probably did a lot more squeezing but bishops also get to spend some of that money, I’d assume. And, with Romney’s wealth, he must be at the tippy top of the Mormon pyramid financially as well as socially.

So, it comes down to this for me. I don’t care if you are Mormon. I don’t care if you are Scientologists. I don’t care if you follow Heaven’s Gate or Jim Jones. But I don’t like a lot of what those “religions” do. I don’t like how they take some or all of what their followers make. I don’t like that they spend millions on marketing their beliefs to people. It’s not that I don’t think they can’t be in politics or government but this is the Presidency. This is MY president. He represents ME. A Mormon bishop, A leader of Scientology, the Heaven’s Gate dude, they do not represent me and their beliefs say too much about their character for me to trust them as my leader. Mitt’s job used to be to talk poor people out of 10% of their earnings for a little slice of heaven. As a politician he is still doing that….trying to figure out how to squeeze the poor for a few more shillings. Some things do not change and in this case, Romney’s church seems to basically be Romney’s politics. Say whatever you have to, keep everything secret and do your very best to get the little guy to give up his dough so the top percent can live their lavish lifestyle. I have the same problem with the Catholic Church. How many ghetto kids could eat for a week on what a single fancy Pope hat costs?

I figured I am going to get flamed hard for this but…c’est la vie. Politics are harsh and I’ve heard a ton about our Muslim President and his anti-American, anti-Christian Chicago church. Just because Romney is Mormon doesn’t mean he gets a free pass. If you’re a salesman for a church and you want to be President, it’s all fair game.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. The 1% only uses religion as a tool , Fleabaggers are so racist

he could be the head of Theosophy as long as Allah or Muhammad weren't in it ( which they both are ) by why cloud the mindless Cheering for a Republican with facts and variances.In 1975 I was stranded in Salt Lake City for 30 hrs ,they were the strangest android like people I have ever met , I was only 17 but it still holds true.

[turtlerescue1]

23. Awww I too was standed in SLC when doing a kind thing for a fellow passenger.

She had left her baby's bottle in the restroom in Wendover, so I ran back and got it for her. We were to change buses in SLC, except every penny I had and my ticket had been stolen. So there I was 17 years old June of 1967 and tossed off the bus to Mpls. No one cared. My parents in California were frantic. I was frantic. BUT who cared in SLC? A young Catholic that worked part time in handling baggage. Attending college there because it was the best choice for where he was raised. Took about 12 hours for my folks to buy another ticket, send me money to eat on and let me get out of there.

Glad to know I wasn't the only 17 year old in SLC that ended up with the same views.

[orpupilofnature57]

57. Wow ,I got out of there from a man whose brother

was a Roman Catholic priest as this man had planned ,until he could see the hypocrisy of church ,Still his story of existing with a cult in control made me appreciate up-state NY like I never had before.

[Nye Bevan]

2. Very similar concerns were expressed about JFK's Catholicism.

I'm glad that we have (mostly) moved on from this type of scrutiny and criticism.

[orpupilofnature57]

3. We have ,They never will ,except now .

Hypocrisy is what it's about ,Torquemada being scrutinized .

[Duer 157099]

4. JFK was a Bishop?

I think there is a difference.

[DonRedwood]

16. thank you

[goclark]

34. Agree ~ big difference

and JFK or his family never bragged about their wealth.
I was delighted to see them going to church and being " from the view we were able to see on TV" a family that cared about ALL Americans.

Thanks for letting us know more about Rmoneys faith ~ what I learned from your post tells me that I am scared, very scared for Mittwit to be anywhere near the Oval Office -- he does not do a good job of seperating his Religious Teaching . We see so many examples in his every day lack of performance for those in need/ or not in the % 2.

[DonRedwood]

6. I know it isn't polite.

It feels against my upbringing to discuss it openly but he is not a passive follower. We can look into the clubs a presidential hopeful holds membership in, we can look into the political party he joins, we can require a vetting process where they discuss who they have slept with, who they have borrowed money from, who they have given money to and all of that is fair. But we can't question the religion of a candidate even if he is a leader of that church?

See, I'd agree with you but then I realized, there are religions that I am uncomfortable with and not because of their beliefs, but because of their actions. If you have ever had a gay Mormon friend who has been hounded out of their church then you'll know what I mean. They told a friend of mine's mom that she was not even allowed to talk to him any more or be kicked out of the church. (she didn't listen, they kicked her out).

Bishop Romney for President is a discussion that I feel is fair to discuss. He isn't Mitt Romney who happens to be Mormon...he is Bishop Romney and he wants to be your leader.

[immoderate]

5. Nah! Any religious belief can be rationalized.

Romney will not cheat on his wife, or drink coffee, but if he gets the chance to screw the country up the wazoo, he will be covered by some bullshit that he really believes.

Any religious person can do this. Non-religious don't have to.


--imm

[blueamy66]

47. Oh, trust me....Mormons do cheat

nt

[cr8tvlde]

7. So will I ... and thanks for the information

Cultural religious imprinting is permanent. Just as a first language, one can learn a second religion/language, but the primary...even if denied or changed, is always pre-eminent.

Some religions, say Episcopal or United Church of Christ or Buddhism or Sufism...allow for more personal thought and implementation. But traditional Catholics, Mormons, Rightwingers, Islamics and Jews have strong views firmly and indelibly planted and woven into the psyche/family/culture. Many rebel and go to other religions or no religion, but, like the first language, it is in there even if expressed as an antithesis.

As to the No. 2 guy Ryan, perhaps Ayn Rand provided that element of the attempt to rebel/think for himself ... that act upon which most of the above religions frown. I remember when she was "the rage" back in the 60's although I couldn't get past the first few pages...BORING...so for that as a youthful discretion would make some sense. But he's now 42 and running for the VP and handing out her book as if it were a Bible. Evangelizing. Not Catholic.

Mitt can't disengage from his imprinting...and it has strongly shaped who he is as a human and political being. And we are right to take these things strongly into account. Ryan can't figure out what he believes.

At best, two flip-floppers.

[DonRedwood]

22. A Randian and a Cultist?

[Voice for Peace]

32. It's a valid issue in my opinion and although I wouldn't want to see Obama's campaign go

there, the rest of us have every right to raise the questions
and make people aware. It is a completely valid concern,
just as it would be if the candidate were a born-again Christian,
or anyone who's waiting for/ believes in Armageddon. If
he were a Muslim nobody in GOP would have a problem with
religion being in the picture. But why it matters:.

Does his loyalty to the church trump the oath to serve the
constitution?

Does he understand separation of church and state, and
believe in it?

Mitt became pro-choice in order to get elected in Massachusetts.
He swore up and down and back and forth, his true promise to
never take that choice away.

The church gave him their blessing to lie, for that purpose.

This is not an irrelevant issue at ALL!!

In fact I'd like to see him questioned more about this flipflop,
and how the church gave permission for it.

[DonRedwood]

38. I didn't know about this

The church looked the other way or actually gave him the go-ahead. Any suggested reading material?

And, I agree, I would dislike it if it came from the White House. In fact, because they are the White House it seems they are being very respectful of the issue even with all the church money that has been used in Politics recently (8 in California, for example)

[Voice for Peace]

58. here is one link.. I think I read the original salon piece linked here on DU

http://www.danshaferblog.com/romney-sought-church-permission-for-pro-choic

[JaneyVee]

8. Religion used to be described as the opiate to the masses, but to RWers it's more like bath salt.

[DonRedwood]

10. I don't want them to eat my face

sorry...couldn't resist

[kentuck]

9. I think Romney is more of a Muslim than Obama...

He doesn't drink or smoke. I don't know if he eats pork?

But our President, like all good Muslims, can be seen at the state fairs guzzling down a tall cold one or snacking on a pork chop.

Of course, we have known that when he was younger, like all good Muslims, he was a smoker. Supposedly, he no longer has that habit.

But, just from appearances, Romney would be a much better Muslim than Barack Obama.

[DonRedwood]

12. suddenly i see that porkchop differently

[orpupilofnature57]

14. Good Point !

People are preoccupied with the connotations and denotations that form an image of what they are rather than letting what they Say ,Do and vote represent who they are .

[monmouth]

11. The Obamas went to St. John's Episcopal today...n/t

[Curtland1015]

13. I don't care what religion ANYONE is, unless it starts bleeding into their politics.

Church and state belong as far away from each other as possible.

[DonRedwood]

15. church<------------------------------------------------------>state

[orpupilofnature57]

18. Jesus promoted it 2000 yrs ago.

[DonRedwood]

20. The religious right has been pretty quiet...

I keep waiting for one of them to snap and then the dam to burst. My very conservative friends do not like the Mormon religion and talk amongst themselves about it. But I haven't heard much about it. I think it is the basis for all the repub attacks on Romney. They've been undermining him the whole time and I had kind of guessed that was the reason why

[orpupilofnature57]

21. Even Knute won in the Bible belt.

[tawadi]

17. The Latter Day Saint movement should be fully exposed in this campaign

Here is a snippit:

Abortion is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, and homosexual rights vehemently opposed. The divine role of woman is mother and wife, helper to the husband. Men are regarded as the head of the family, provider, leader, and teacher. Marriage is regarded as eternal, but divorce is permitted if necessary. In keeping with the belief that doing good works is essential for salvation and is Christian, Mormons established a "welfare" program. Mormons practice monthly fasts...


http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Latter-Day-Saints-Mormons-Believe.aspx

[treestar]

19. I kind of agree, especially if he goes there on the Jeremiah Wright stuff

Some Christians in the US claim persecution when anyone else uses freedom of speech to question them about it.

The Mormon Church has this strange White Horse Prophecy thing. I think Mitt did reject it, so at least he is capable of talking about it.

[MrScorpio]

24. As far as I'm concerned, people should even be free enough to worship trees in this country

Romney's behavior and policy problems are enough for me to have used against him instead of bringing up religion, regardless how different it seems.

I'm not religious at all. I think that by protecting the right of everyone to worship or not to worship n America should be universal.

[DonRedwood]

25. So the Pope could run for President but its declasse to bring up his religion? Bishop Romney agrees

[MrScorpio]

27. That pope would have to be American born, of course. Sure, he could run.

But it would only be a problem if the candidate ran on a platform to impose church dogma as government policy.

Good luck with getting elected with that shit.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. So any hateful notion that gets called 'religion' is now off limits for discussion?

That's the way they controlled many realms of human life for generations. I think it is bullshit on the half shell. They all run on dogma as policy.

[DonRedwood]

26. Sorry...I'm picturing the people who worship maple trees getting made at the people

who worship lowly spruce trees....and a whole new level of religious strife was born.

[MichiganVote]

28. Well, Romney did say that our trees in Michigan are just the right height..:)

Whatever the hell that was supposed to mean.

[DonRedwood]

45. The profits fromtrees Bain had cut in WI were too small, the trees they cut in OH were taxed too big

but they really like the tax breaks they got in Michigan so those trees were just right

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. There is unrest in the forest; There is trouble with the trees

For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/rush/the+trees_20119968.html

[SheilaT]

29. Nobody talks about Romney's religion?

Have you been under a very large rock for the past year or so?

[DonRedwood]

40. I think the media and other politicians have stayed pretty clear of the subject

[darkangel218]

39. :p

The God of beer will be mad at you, you shouldn't mess with him!

[DonRedwood]

41. But then you gotta decide...church of miller? Church of the Latter Day Annheiser Bushe's?

Orthodox Billy Beer

[Politicalboi]

36. It's not nice to do that, besides

It's not like he's a Muslim.
I'm sure that would fine too.

[nolabear]

37. I'm queasy talking about it too, but he's a bishop, a high political position in the church.

And it IS political. It sets and upholds law and punishment for breaking that law within the society of the church. I just cannot believe he isn't a Mormon first and an American second. It's one of the most important tenets of the faith. (My info comes largely from Under the Banner of Heaven by Jonathan Krakauer, and it is a serious eye-opener about the history of the religion).

[DonRedwood]

46. Choices the church made while he was helping as a bishop

are choices he can and should be held accountable for. Just like a CEO. Just like a President. Just like ANY LEADER IS RESPONSIBLE for the actions of the group that he is leading.

[onethatcares]

42. I appreciate your post.

it allows me room to expand my thinking on that part of Rmoneys life.

[sammytko]

44. Press invited to his church service today

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/us/politics/romneys-at-church-scripture-songs-and-six-grandchildren.html?hp

[DonRedwood]

48. "On one level, it was a typical Sunday morning for Mr. Romney" yet the priest almost passed him by

without offering him the host and people who see him say "welcome back". Yes, that is how someone who regularly attends church is treated. I wonder how the Choir liked Anne just jumping up and joining them for a tune. The choir is up there like they practiced, they've been working and practicing warming up together and then Anne just jumps on up like she does every typical Sunday and joins in for a tune. Choirs LOVE it when people do that.

Welcome back indeed!

[Hamlette]

49. Do you have a problem with Harry Reid's Mormonism?

I don't.

And I get the giggles whenever anyone says Romney is a church leader. Not true.

I've lived in Utah all my life. Romney is not "high up" in the church nor is he a leader. He was a stake president and a bishop. Since those positions are all held by laymen, its not a big deal at all. The church is run by the presidency (3 people) at the top, a 12 man group under that (disciples?) and 11 or 12 councils consisting of 70 men each. Romney has never held any of those positions and doesn't now. The power is in those people, not a state president or a bishop. Trust me, I've met some lackluster bishops and since they usually only serve for a year or two, seems like lots of men get asked to be bishop. a "Stake" is just a group of "wards".

[WinkyDink]

50. No, because it doesn't seem that HR has the same motive as MR, to wit: to fulfill a Mormon prophecy

to bring a Mormon theocracy to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[Hamlette]

51. My feeling is Romney is about as serious about his church as he is about his other "ideals"

not at all. He can change from pro choice to pro life when he needs to, I don't see him as a Mormon zealot. In part because he doesn't seem to be a zealot about anything. He has no core, no soul.

I know and have known many mormons. Some are assholes, some are great people. It has to do with the person, not the religion. IMHO.

[DonRedwood]

53. $10,000,000 yearly tithes make for power in ANY institution

I can't believe that the one of the highest elected officials of their religion and one of their richest members doesn't hold some sway.

[Hamlette]

56. The president of the mormon church talks to God. I'm not making that up.

You think they are impressed with the likes of Romney?

They are the richest church in the world. They have so many rich members Romney if anything is an embarrassment. Remember when he was governor of Mass? He ran for Senate saying he was more supportive of gay rights than Kennedy (!) and he was pro choice.

Sure, he can get an appointment to see the church president and not many people can do that but trust me, if Romney told the church to change it likely would. If the church told him to change in a way that would threatened his ability to be president? No way would Romney do it. He's all in it for himself and the church knows it. IMHO.

The church has one goal, make money. Makes them the perfect match for American, no? And they believe to do that they have to be mainstream. The church does not like attention. They are holding their breath hoping Mitt doesn't draw negative attention to the church.

The church is also on a charm offensive right now. I think they know Glen Beck doesn't help their image and their support for Prop 8 was very embarrassing. They do not want that to happen again. One thing is they are getting some push back from the rank and file (a group of mormons marched in the gay pride parade this year (!)) and they are being compassionate conservatives right now.

[riverbendviewgal]

52. I am disturbed by the approval of lying

I always taught my children to always tell the truth.

If the President of the United States will not tell the truth or keep changing his views to suit the moment I believe he is not serving the people but serving himself and those chosen by him at the expense of the people.

[DonRedwood]

54. His lying is making his whole religion look bad is how I see it

[Cha]

55. Glad ya went there, DonRedwood.. It's imperative

that it's discussed.

"Exclusive: Brigham Young’s Great-Great-Granddaughter on Mormonism and Mitt Romney"

"Will he be more beholden to his church than to the American people? Emmett recalls that when Romney was stake president in the church, he was pro-life. But when he was running for governor he changed his position to pro-choice. A woman in the church who was a good friend of Emmett’s went to see Romney and thanked him for changing his position. “He told her that he had talked to church leaders in Salt Lake,” Emmett says, “and that they gave him permission to change his position.”


Lots MORE..
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/07/exclusive-brigham-young-s-great-great-granddaughter-on-mormonism-and-mitt-romney.html