Roger

[H2O Man]

“While we are laughing the seed of some trouble is put into the wide arable land of events. While we are laughing it sprouts, it grows and suddenly bears a poison fruit which we must pluck.”
John Keats

Well before the mainstream media was reporting connections between Roger Stone and the Trump-Russian criminal scandal, members of the DU community were discussing his role. And months before Trump said publicly that he would be proud to shut down the government, members of the DU community were discussing the inevitable “crisis” Trump would create to distract public attention from upcoming results from the Mueller investigation. That is an example of what, in my opinion, makes this such an important forum.

Today's news is bigger than most Americans could possibly recognize.

[dchill]

1. Roger.

Copy that.

[H2O Man]

3. 10-4

There are so many outstanding OP/threads here today! I love it! I'm supposed to be packing to travel for my son's fight in the NYS Golden Gloves this weekend, but am having difficulty moving away from reading DU on the computer.

[NurseJackie]

31. Huh?

[akraven]

2. Roger,

Houston, we have a problem! Go get 'em FBI!!

[H2O Man]

5. Today

is a very special day in our nation's history, requiring a celebration.

[akraven]

6. Meetup, Blue Loon, first round is on me!

[H2O Man]

17. Sounds great!

Although I generally don't drink -- I can't remember how many years it's been -- I am thinking of just how good Guinness tastes. Second round on me.

[StrangeDaysAhead]

4. WTF is going on?

A pre-dawn armed and armored raid, kicking in his door to take this dangerous criminal into custody and 2 hours later a Federal Judge lets him walk on a bond with travel restricted to NY, Wash DC and South Florida?

How is that keeping us safe from Roger Stone?

And now Stone is on the TV reveling in the attention!

What a fucking circus.

[leftieNanner]

8. I'm disappointed that they didn't keep him in jail too

But even though he's a complete creep, he's not a violent felon (yet) and they confiscated his passport.

I'm guessing they found lots of goodies in his house this morning while he was being hauled away in shackles.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. "A pre-dawn armed and armored raid, kicking in his door"

There was no "kicking in" of a door. There was a knock and a serving of a warrant. The video is widely available.

[H2O Man]

11. Food for thought .....

Keep in mind that both Manafort (per Mueller) and Cohen (per SDNY) had areas they were unwilling to address openly and honestly with investigators. Part of that has been reported upon, much is redacted, and some is not even mentioned in the unsealed filings. Now, this might sound like speculation, but it is accurate:

Manafort refuses to identify connections between himself, the Trump campaign, and the Russian mob/intelligence, because he knows he and his family will pay a steep price if he does; and

Cohen refuses to discuss his dealings with the Russian mob/intelligence, for the exact same reason.

Considering that, it is okay that Roger was released for now. And it is a good thing he is running his mouth on television. The more he babbles, the better.

[Hamlette]

26. my understanding is that Cohen is cooperating with Mueller but not SDNY.

Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2019, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Mueller is doing Russia, SDNY is doing other crimes. As much as I hate to say it, I think Trump is right on this. Cohen will not give up his father in law. Or maybe someone else. And it too may be related to Russian mafia but not necessarily to Trump. Mueller is going after Trump and his connection to Russia and he is satisfied with what Cohen has given regarding that crime or set of crimes.

[BigmanPigman]

30. That sounds reasonable and probable to me.

[Whiskeytide]

33. I suspect the surprise raid ...

... was more about preventing the destruction of evidence than Stone being a genuine flight risk or a danger to others. What would he do, or where would he go realistically?

They just wanted his electronics intact.

[marble falls]

50. Say g'bye!

[uponit7771]

7. K&R, there's no reason why DU should've been hacked the night of the election when there were so ...

... many other opportunities to do such and those were even better.

I try to not take things too seriously but I'm also not going to ignore blatant "coincidences"

[H2O Man]

14. I agree 100%.

I've never believed in coincidence. I like Malcolm Nance's saying that coincidences require a lot of work.

I was recently discussing the enemy's interest in DU with one of my closest friends.

[uponit7771]

15. +1, IINM DU was one of the highest hit forums that was exclusively political during the 16

... election.

reddit doesn't count IMHO because its not exclusive political but to be even mentioned in the same breath means something.

Things were going on here

[H2O Man]

16. Definitely.

I always keep in mind Malcolm X's sayin that just because a man throws worms in the water, it doesn't mean he is a friend of the fish. I keep that in mind as we approach 2020.

[uncle ray]

52. also, DU is/was a relatively soft target.

no offense meant to our admins, but this site is run by relative amateurs compared to Reddit, etc. clearly our defenses were not up to resisting a determined effort by a hostile foreign power. DU as a target offered very good bang for the buck.

[blogslut]

10. *cheers*

[H2O Man]

18. Now, is

it just me, or is that a glass of Guinness?

[flotsam]

12. The thing that should be discussed is the arc of his career.

Roger has been at this for a full half century and it looks like the bookends for his career will be actively subverting the rule of law for both (hopefully) of the US Presidents to be thrown out of office as criminals. He was there for Watergate, Iran-Contra, and helped the GHW Bush campaign with the Willie Horton ad. In 2000 he worked in the Brooks Brothers riot again subverting an election. And now as a penultimate act (His last will be serving time) he conspired to kill the republic itself. The Arc of Justice be damned-we need a death penalty enacted for all traitors.

[H2O Man]

19. Couldn't agree more!

Back on December 7, I posted an essay on just that!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211523760

[flotsam]

22. I missed that post

Thank you-I did not know that part of the story.

[matt819]

13. A thought or two

Not a lawyer. And on TV my favorite shows are the cop shows, not the lawyer shows. And my favorite book lawyer is Andy Carpenter, so that gives you an idea into my insights.

Thought one. I would think that a prosecutor faced with the massive corruption and criminality that Mueller is facing would indict from the ground up. I'm not sure that's how I would characterize the indictments and convictions of Cohen and Manafort, that is, lower level, but it's certainly the case for the others under indictment or already convicted. What I'm getting at is that either Corsi did nothing wrong, or he talked, thereby passed go without being indicted. Of course, there's always the cliche approach of letting one or more bad guys off, leading the guys up the ladder to believe that the lower level guys ratted on them, even if they didn't. In any case, I'm thinking that if we assume that Stone is at the top of that second tier of criminals, then the next step is to target tier one - family members. Or am I missing a tier?

Thought two. Stone says he's not a rat. What say we at DU? With these indictments, will he squeal? I didn't read all the reports. Was Stone directed to give up his passport and "not leave town"? I love that line in movies and TV shows.

Thought three. Will Mueller indict family members? If not, why not? If so, who and in what order? I've given up on predicting when. Just for shits and grins, I'd go for Lara Trump, followed by Eric, then Junior, then Ivanka, then Jared. Take passports, freeze assets.

Thought four. Frankly, I don't care if these are "process" crimes. The feds got Al Capone on tax evasion. Whatever works. I wonder, though, if Muller plans to add "substance" charges once he proves, in open court, what Stone lied about that prompted the process charge of lying to the FBI. That said, I don't think witness tampering is a process crime, and establishing the basis of that charge could very well lead to the conclusion that this is the very behavior that trump has engaged in repeatedly.

Thought five. You have the right to remain silent. What is it with the brains of all of these criminals, Giuliani included, that they don't know how to STFU?

[H2O Man]

20. Very interesting.

I've read your comments here several times through, and really appreciate them. Thank you!

It's kind of a contradiction: although everyone in the Trump campaign is a low-life inhabiting the underside of a slimy rock in the gutter of humanity, the vast majority of the Mueller investigations' targets cannot be defined as "low-level" in the usual sense. They were almost exclusively highly involved in the criminal enterprise.

[Fuzzpope]

21. The defanging

Of this living cancer, this multi-generational pox upon the two great political Houses, let the emasculation of this savage beast begin in earnest to our cheers and quiet sighs of relief.

A great pressure lifts the yoke.

We do not require a full specta of the American audience to savor the justice soon to be rendered upon ye olden serpent, he's our burden here, our conquered prize.

Repent, O' Satan.

[slumcamper]

23. Fine quote, but Keats was certainly an anti-comma provocateur. n/t

[Hamlette]

24. No, Roger and Sarah Sanders are right

the indictment does not charge him with wrong doing re: election or Russia.

We can only hope that is to come. I sort of don't want these guys to go down on lying if the underlying event is not criminal (material).

[mercuryblues]

34. I think Mueller

did it this way to get Stone in for questioning. He has him dead to rights on the charges he was indicted for. Next step is.... I have evidence for much worse let's make a deal. It would be in Stone's best interest to talk. If he doesn't Mueller has no problem with adding on charges, just ask Manafort.


Mueller started by plucking around the edges and moved inward. He is getting everything he can before he hones in on the kids. I think Jared will go 1st because he isn't blood. If that happens look for the kids to go in quick succession. I'm talking about the same day so they won't have time to get their stories straight. It would also make sense to arrest them when they are in different states. So they will be in different jurisdictions and no contact with each other.


My bet is junior's ex wife has had a chat with Mueller.

[Hamlette]

36. have they been interviewed by the FBI? I know Donny Jr testified before the Senate but the others?

what does Mueller have on any of them?

I think Jared is probably in it, wanting to set up a secret line of communication with Russia? I can't imagine a legit reason for doing that.

Roger Stone is about as close to collusion as I've seen. We know Russia used Wikileaks to publish the stolen emails and now we know someone pretty high up in the Trump campaign was talking to Roger about coordination with Wikileaks. And they all lied about it which is circumstantial evidence of guilt. (Circumstantial evidence can be some of the best evidence, plus there is some indication Roger emailed some of his plans.) And we've got Donny Jr in the meeting in Trump tower. As far as I know, that's it for the kids.

I'm just not sure Trump would bring his kids in on this. He might have been protecting them from the scummiest part of the Russian connection. Think back when Eric and Don Jr bragged about how much money the family got from Russia to finance their business. Would they have bragged if they had known Daddy was laundering money? Yeah, they could be that dumb or daddy protected them. I'd not want my kid to know I was that sleazy.

I think Jared might go down but I think the kids walk. Maybe Donny Jr for lying to congress.

Oh, hell, who knows.

I'm dying to know the answers.

[H2O Man]

37. Respectfully disagree.

And I absolutely do mean "respectfully," because I value your opinion.

A good prosecutor generally charges the sure bets for conviction. And, as Manafort found out, if one does not plea to those -- and cooperate -- Mr. Mueller can bring other charges.

More, from the indictments of the Russian military intelligence officers, we know that Mr. Mueller included information specific to Stone's contacts with one of them. There is more to what Mr. Mueller has on Stone. Much more. Yesterday was simply putting the ball in Roger's court.

[Hamlette]

49. I thank you for your respect, and raise you one

I'm not saying it will not happen. In my heart of hearts I hope Mueller has sealed indictments on all of them an is only releasing the ones that are not "spoiler alerts".

My point is simply if we only get people on process, and there is no underlying crime, it looks hollow to me. In the law we call it a material lie. If I lie about my age, and even get my friends to lie about my age and my age has nothing to do with my injury, it doesn't matter that I lied about my age (or address or my hair color or a number of things). So if all these people lied about having contact with Russians but they were only talking about the weather, it pisses me off that they lied, but I have to be honest, I didn't care that Clinton lied about sex "with that woman".

I get the difference. I didn't care that Clinton had sex with Monica. I do care if these guys sold out my country to Russia. Yes, I know, Flynn was talking about sanctions, but what exactly did he say? There are so many kinds of lies.

As for Mueller bringing more charges against Manafort, it is my understanding that the charges he is considering is that Manafort lied to the FBI after he accepted agreement to cooperate with Mueller. Not charges that he conspired with the Russians. Again, those charges could be under lock and key. As a lawyer of 42 years with a husband and son who are both lawyers we talk and think about this a lot. Prosecutors can and do hold back on some charges for a number of reasons. And he obviously has unanswered questions/is still looking for evidence.

So, see, we actually agree. I think.

[KT2000]

25. So often, I wonder

what took them so long. I know that media has to wait for solid verification but we had this figured out before the 2016 election with regard to trump's money laundering and Russia connections.

[H2O Man]

38. Right.

It has seemed like a long time in coming. But reading through yesterday's indictment, and remembering that Mr. Mueller had identified more about Stone in the indictments of the Russian military intelligence officers, I can see why it has taken this long.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

27. Being ahead of the curve can be tough sometimes, though.

For me, it’s hard to explain some issues to someone who has no idea.

[H2O Man]

39. Definitely!

It's like speaking English to someone who only speaks Latin.

But it's a blast talking with those who know what is happening!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

44. Yes, true!!!

Hell, I can’t explain Civics 101 to anyone—I’m not an expert nor a teacher!

Smart people are more interesting! ☺️

[C Moon]

28. Ah. So this is why Trump said he has an agreement to stop the shut down. What an SOB!

Making citizens suffer for his own fucking circus!
He is trash in its' lowest form.
President, my ass!

[H2O Man]

40. He's the ultimate low.

Mighty curious timing on his willingness to re-open the government. He lacks the ability to feel any sort of compassion for anyone.

[suffragette]

29. He got away with lying for so long and thinks he'll still get away with it now. But Mueller has

demonstrated how very thorough he is.

And Stone has been part of Trump’s inner circle for quite some time.

Yes, this is big news, indeed.

[H2O Man]

41. Right!

I thought it was a giggle that he did the old Nixon victory salute. Perhaps he forgot the last time Nixon did that, on the day he left the White House.

Stone has never been held accountable before. This is new to him. He may be confident now. But as he legal team reviews the evidence that Mr. Mueller has, and inform him he will surely be convicted and incarcerated, that confidence will evaporate.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

45. Hee hee! Yay! 👍🏾

[suffragette]

48. Him making that same gesture was odd. Hubris on display.

Exactly right about him never being held accountable and never facing consequences of his actions. Then it will be between playing for a pardon from Trump or singing a song for Mueller.

[coeur_de_lion]

32. It's a great day for America

Not as great as the day Individual 1 leaves office in cuff and shackles but I'll take it.

So grateful today. I really appreciate the great minds on DU and yours especially H.

But I do have a question. Did you read as I did how Stone was pressuring delegates to vote for trump before the election?

I was hoping to see charges for this included in the indictment.

[H2O Man]

42. It was a Great Day!

I am aware that Stone was pressuring delegates. I'm not sure that would be something that he would definitely be convicted of, as there is a long history of advocates for candidates doing this. (RFK certainly did in 1960, for his brother.) Roger tries to skate the fine line between legal and illegal. Mr. Mueller prosecutes the sure convictions.

[coeur_de_lion]

47. Bummer

I guess pressuring is okay but maybe threatening is not.

As we saw in the indictment Stone likes to threaten people. That's what I think he did. But one way or another he's in jail.

[malaise]

35. And you were the first person to tell us that Stone would

be indicted.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211729227

[H2O Man]

43. You and I have

been talking about this for quite a while!

[malaise]

46. Yep

I started paying attention to him following your comments
I know they will fight back but serious damage was done by Dems since November and I am really happy.

[no_hypocrisy]

51. Belated relief for Eliot Spitzer and Al Franken

These two democratic officeholders were targeted and taken down by Roger Stone.