Thanking Effieblack for her latest post AND asking two questions.

[allgood33]

I am not certain how these questions will be taken but I really sincerely am seeking answers. Please do not ascribe motives beyond the actual questions and statements.

I have had similar experiences to those described in two events now in the headlines. Elizabeth Warren and Dr. Vanessa Tyson.

My family has for all of my life spoken of being part Native American, along with a list of other ethnicitys. Would I be wrong for having claimed those ethnicitys for most of my life and then seeking DNA evidence for trying to confirm what I belived?


Two I had a similar experience with a man whom I dated. After a consensual kiss while seated on a couch in his apartment, he grabbed my neck from behind and pushed my head into his lap. Yes he had been aroused and even though he had tried to force me to have oral sex he could not make me. Even with my head next to an exposed penis he could not make me and he was at his most vulnerable aroused point. So is one forced to have oral sex? The incident was real, and at the time vulgar to me. But this man who was twice my size could not force me have oral sex. Had he tried, he may have been able to get on top of me and perform what would be rape because of his size but he could not force me to have oral sex.

Just seeking comment without prejudice.

[snpsmom]

1. In response to your second question:

everyone is different, and we judge others' reactions to traumatic instances at our own risk. I learned this in SERE school. Just because we react or behave in a certain way does not mean that others will do the same, and it certainly does not give us the right to judge others' reactions. This situation is ugly for a number of reasons that have been hashed out repeatedly in this forum and elsewhere, and which I will not continue to belabor. I will just say that personally, I find "Monday morning quarterbacking" Dr. Tyson's statement about what happened to be unhelpful.

[pnwmom]

3. The problem is that her statement is the only piece of evidence there appears to be.

He denies that what she described happened.

So unless other information comes to light, what is there to do except examine their conflicting statements?

[snpsmom]

5. as noted: situation is ugly for a number of reasons n/t

[Squinch]

6. We need to separate the issue of what happened between her and Fairfax, if anything, from

this question of whether women can be forced to perform oral sex.

I have no opinion on what happened between them.

I have strong opinions on those who are suggesting, all over DU, that women who claim that part of their assault included oral sex just didn't resist forcefully enough and are somehow not to be taken all that seriously.

[snpsmom]

7. yes. this. n/t

[allgood33]

8. Your "strong opinion"

You say you have "strong opinion on those who are suggsting..., Is your opinion on those who had it actually had it happen to them or on those who comment about it? And if i comment based on experience, is it not a valid comment? Because I know what actually happened to me and what happened during and after the attempt.

[Squinch]

9. I think I was perfectly clear.

[jcgoldie]

18. +1

The argument that women can't be coerced into oral sex is just a mess not to mention extremely regressive regardless of your opinions on the Fairfax accusations.

[brush]

16. She's a smart woman, highly educated, so one would think...

she'd know coming forward with this accusation without anything but a "he said-she said" situation would be unprovable.

So I'm compelled to ask "what's her angle" since she knows it can't be proven?

[madaboutharry]

2. I think it is entirely possible to force one to perform oral sex.

There are laws in every state that define nonconsensual oral sex as rape. Coercion, violence, fear, and manipulation are all scenarios in which sexual assault occurs.

Only two people know what happened in that hotel room. It comes down to who you believe and whose perception of events you believe.

[Squinch]

4. I am really fucking sick of these "how can a man force a woman to perform oral sex" and

"no one could EVER force ME to do it!" posts.

I have no opinion whether it happened between Fairfax and Tyson, but this victim blaming shit is disgusting.

[allgood33]

10. I haven't seen other posts about this.

You can be sick and tired of all kinds of posts. But when someone is speaking about an experience it is, to me, quite a different opinion or comment.

I am sick and tired of folks being sick and tired.

[EllieBC]

19. One was hidden.

The other was on another thread. If you can’t understand how someone can force someone to fellate them you’ve been lucky enough to never have been assaulted or know someone who has been assaulted.

[yardwork]

12. I agree on both points.

[MaryMagdaline]

11. First I am sorry you suffered physical and sexual abuse

I do think that when a woman says that she was forced to have oral sex she means that she could not endure the pain and possible fracture or paralysis of excessive force on her neck. Your courage and willingness to endure pain is exceptional. I would not, however, expect the same from all women and men in the same situation. We all have different breaking points

[Amaryllis]

17. Good point. THere are many degrees of force, and how much force and how long

someone will be willing to apply force in the face of resistance, especially as you say when it gets to the point of physical pain or physical damage.

Then there is the whole psychological aspect of how a person will respond based on their background - how much they are psychologically equipped to resist, or at what point they may just go numb and be unable to resist.

[yardwork]

13. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Every sexual assault is different. There are many cases of people being forced to have oral sex, proven in courts of law. One person's experience is different from others. Some rapists enjoy torturing and killing their victims. They are sadists who enjoy inflicting pain and fear.

[brooklynite]

14. Answer to the first question

The problem was claiming Native American heritage as a SIGNIFICANT element and putting it on official forms without knowing the extent with certainty, and then doing the DNA test when there was blowback, and then continuing to discuss it.

[Ms. Toad]

20. You seem to be taking lessons from the 70s meme

in which the defense attorney waves a pop bottle around and invites the victim to put the pencil in the neck, because (according to the meme) it is impossible to rape someone who doesn't want to be raped.

Here's an '80s rendition of it:

That letter reminded me of the classic rape trial in which the defense attorney asserted much the same defense for his client, accused of date rape. To illustrate his point, the defense attorney placed a pop bottle on the floor of the courtroom and sent it spinning. He challenged the prosecuting attorney to stick a pencil through the neck of the bottle as it spun around.

The prosecutor grabbed a heavy object and smashed the spinning bottle into a hundred pieces. He then leisurely stuck the pencil through the neck of the bottle.

Holding the penetrated neck high in the air, he declared, ''This, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is date rape.''

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1988-07-03-8801120622-story.html

I'll just leave it at that.