How about we do this? We don't demand people resign without an investigation being completed

[maxrandb]

If we don't do that...there won't be a Democrat in America that isn't accused of something.

[Demsrule86]

1. I agree.

[OnDoutside]

2. You should be reported for making complete sense.

[ooky]

3. What I think would be reasonable is that when a politician

is accused of a crime that politician is put on admin leave until an FBI investigation is completed that determines the evidence. And if the investigation doesn't find credible evidence, then the politician completes his or her term.

[Cold War Spook]

35. And who puts that person on admin leave?

A person who is voted into office is subject to his or her voters. No one should have the right to place any person elected to office on admin leave. Doing so, that person can no longer function in the duties that person was elected to. Even if that person is found to be guilty, but the statute of limitations has passed, only the voters can do anything, if the laws of that state allow. What about in a statehouse in which one party has a one member majority. Does the other party then try to have two members of that majority accused of crimes so they are placed on admin leave? If it happens in one place, it will surely happen in others. We are a nation of laws and governed by the Constitution. Even a person who has been impeached, keeps their position until being found guilty.

[ooky]

42. I think all your questions are valid.

The process for putting someone on administrative leave would have to be worked out, for sure. Leaving the accused in office while the FBI investigation is going on would be okay wth me too, but some seem to be of the opinion that the accused can't perform the demands of their office while dealing with the accusation(s) at the same time. So I was making a suggestion how to deal with that concern. What I want to end is the lynch mob mentality that says when accusations have been made that impeachment proceedings should begin without an investigation. That's bullshit, and its un-american. There has to be a legitimate investigation before any impeachment starts.

[dumbcat]

49. Another slight problem with that idea

is that the FBI does not "determine the evidence." I'm not even sure what that means. The FBI investigation may gather evidence, but it is a prosecutor, judge and jury that "determines" innocence or guilt. Which is also what an impeachment and conviction does as far as removal from office. Until then no one has the authority to "place him on admin leave."

[ooky]

58. Comey did it to Hillary.

Now I kid, but all I mean is the the FBI investigate what the facts are. The determination would be for the legislative body to impeach, or perhaps the facts would lead to a resignation. I probably could have said it better.

[jmowreader]

51. No way

You do realize how many crimes Obama could have been accused of if we had that system in place, correct? The poor guy would have been on "admin leave" the entire time he was in office.

[ooky]

53. Obama could have been accused of crimes?

Like what?

At any rate, I'm not hung up on admin leave, it was just a suggestion for those who think the accused can't do their job while they are accused. All I really want is the lynch mob mentality to stop and a legitimate FBI investigation to take place before the impeachment calls start coming. I want a fair investigation to take place.

[TCJ70]

54. We live in a time when anyone can say anything about anybody. N/t

[ooky]

57. No doubt. That's why we need to get a handle on this

lynch mob mentality. No calls for resignations or impeachments without an investigation first.

[TCJ70]

59. Yep. N/t

[bdamomma]

78. Thinking about your comment

about lynch mob mentality.

If say, Jesus Christ came down those filthy repigs would have crucified him without no trial. My strange analogy but it makes you think.

[pnwmom]

73. ANYONE could be FALSELY accused of a crime, including Obama. In fact, he was accused

of falsely providing information about his birth in Hawaii. It would be a crime to have a driver's license based on providing a false birth certificate, and they were accusing him of that -- so they were accusing him of a crime.

[ooky]

77. Agreed, I didn't think about that

since it was obvious RW nut job conspiracy theorists stuff. I don't think he was ever in any danger of having his life ruined from that lie, but point taken.

[pnwmom]

72. No. Then the Jacob Wohls of the world could derail almost any Democratic career. n/t

[guillaumeb]

4. Do you mean have an actual process for handling these allegations?

What an interesting concept.

[PatrickforO]

5. Well, aside from the very questionable football helmet avatar you have here,

(remember THE DRIVE?), I must agree with you.

I don't know if you watch Bill Maher at all - my wife and I seldom miss him.

Well, last night, he had Malcolm Nance as a member of his panel. For those who may read this who do not know, Nance was a member of the US intelligence community for years, and served in the US Navy.

Anyway, he's on Maher and the talk turns to Virginia, Northam, Fairfax and Herring. Nance had a dry observation.

He said, "This kind of coincidence takes a lot of planning."

Maher was a bit bolder. He used the word 'ratfucking.'

They had some Republican jerk on there who was crowing about it and he tried to engage in whataboutism with Nance, who was having none of it. Nance said that no matter who it is, they deserve an investigation before they are called upon to resign.

I know this is an unpopular position in some threads because of the frustration many women feel after centuries of enduring sexual abuse, but we simply cannot crucify Fairfax on the cross of innuendo. There has to be a chance for him to clear his name. The idea that we ALWAYS must believe an accuser is absurd.

So, now there are two women who have come forward. That is serious. Investigate and if it is true then Fairfax should not only resign, but he should face charges. People can lie, and one of the worst and most despicable lies is a false accusation. So let there be an investigation, and let us respect due process and the credo that someone is innocent until proven guilty during that investigation.

The ancient goddess Themis is often depicted wearing a blindfold and holding a scale. This means that the law ideally must look objectively at all the evidence before a decision is made.

[bdamomma]

9. A full and fair

investigation should be granted, what's next beheadings???

[PatrickforO]

62. Well, I'm not saying Fairfax isn't guilty - he well might be.

And if he is, then he needs to be removed from office and have criminal charges filed.

But...investigation first.

[LakeArenal]

6. It's rat fucking that we seem to fall for.

Not only a process but how about the actual constituents have the final say.

[anti-repub]

89. repos say jump

When the right wingers say "jump," the democrats' reply should not be "how high.""

[njhoneybadger]

7. Hmmm that sounds reasonable

[Hortensis]

8. I don't agree. We do what is best. What we do NOT

do is confuse our duty to do what is best for all for what is most right for one man. We do NOT allow ourselves to be ratfucked and hamstrung by our own principles.

The right's big strategy for takeover of our nation depends on breaking the Democratic Party's very diverse coalition so they can succeed in what has become their attempted authoritarian/fascist/religious right, white nationalist takeover. Our role is to save our democracy.

[bdamomma]

11. Well it's being done

in our faces, this cannot stand. Or we will be Gilead.

[Hortensis]

12. Losing your vote will signal Gilead. I suggest you take a good look

at children too small to understand crying in cages and understand -- the evil revealed can and will be turned against American citizens. You and yours are not safe. It is happening here, and we must stop it.

"Gilead is a city of those who work iniquity; it is stained with blood" (Hosea 6:8).

NY Times, Paul Krugman -- Why It Can Happen Here: We’re very close to becoming another Poland or Hungary.

... And it could all too easily happen here. There was a time, not long ago, when people used to say that our democratic norms, our proud history of freedom, would protect us from such a slide into tyranny. In fact, some people still say that. But believing such a thing today requires willful blindness. The fact is that the Republican Party is ready, even eager, to become an American version of Law and Justice or Fidesz, exploiting its current political power to lock in permanent rule.

Just look at what has been happening at the state level. ...

What about developments at the national level? That’s where things get really scary. We’re currently sitting on a knife edge. If we fall off it in the wrong direction — specifically, if Republicans retain control of both houses of Congress in November — we will become another Poland or Hungary faster than you can imagine. ...

This week Axios created a bit of a stir with a scoop about a spreadsheet circulating among Republicans in Congress, ... Party loyalty will prevail over constitutional responsibility.

A year ago it seemed possible that there might be limits to the party’s complicity, that there would come a point where at least a few representatives or senators would say, no more. Now it’s clear that there are no limits: They’ll do whatever it takes to defend Trump and consolidate power. ...

But why is America, the birthplace of democracy, so close to following the lead of other countries that have recently destroyed it? Don’t tell me about “economic anxiety.” That’s not what happened in Poland, which grew steadily through the financial crisis and its aftermath. And it’s not what happened here in 2016: Study after study has found that racial resentment, not economic distress, drove Trump voters.

The point is that we’re suffering from the same disease — white nationalism run wild — that has already effectively killed democracy in some other Western nations. And we’re very, very close to the point of no return.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/opinion/trump-republican-party-authoritarianism.html

He's leaving out those among the 70,000 newly ultrawealthy families who are harnessing the "culture wars" for energy to dispose of a democracy they've decided intolerably obstructs their lives, their liberties, and their pursuits of happiness. But you get the idea, I hope.

[bdamomma]

13. and it will be done

worst than the shutdown.

but again, we have the numbers.

[Hortensis]

16. :) 300,000,000 of us. We can do whatever we choose

with them. As you say, though many millions with them, we are the majority and we are growing.

Nancy Pelosi stood at the podium upon being sworn in and quoted Justice Louis Brandeis's warning that we can have democracy or we can have great great wealth in the hand of a few, but we cannot have both.

Those who came before us chose healthy, vigorous democracy.

We must turn out united in sufficient numbers in 2020 that, no matter what they do, they cannot subvert and steal our elections. Because that's how they plan to win.

[bdamomma]

23. We know that here at DU

voter suppression is rampart. McConnell has already poo poo'ed on democracy, he doesn't want Voting day to be a National holiday because more people WILL BE voting, we are on to him.

Again like you said we ARE the majority.

[Hortensis]

71. I've always thought election day should be a

special national holiday, Bdamomma. Imagine whole new traditions developing around local events, schoolkids in parades, speeches and concerts in parks. I was thrilled to learn we really are planning to make that happen.

[maxrandb]

21. Ummmm, it's not just one man

It's also the millions of Virginians that voted for Democratic leadership and Democratic policies.

[Miigwech]

10. Truth out!

We demanded FBI investigation into kav-the-rapist before judging him. That investigation never happened. Now, because of the system that protects the RW groomed, white American(or Black American, c. thomas), we see so clearly that the fix is in.

[PTWB]

14. I'm all for a thorough investigation but let's be honest with ourselves ..

Accusations from a decade or more ago are going to have no physical evidence. Unless the accused was dumb enough to leave electronic evidence (text messages, emails, etc) in which they incriminate themselves, or unless they confesss, nothing is going to turn up. It is going to be he said / she said.

In my opinion if you have a credible accuser, a resignation is in order. Especially in this case! Fairfax’s victim is a lifelong Democrat and completely credible! Just look st her credentials. She is NOT a Republican plant and anyone suggesting so is being disingenuous.

NO we shouldn’t jump the gun and force our GOOD Democratic politicians to resign for after any accusations - just the credible ones.

[EffieBlack]

18. "if you have a credible accuser, a resignation is in order"

Sounds good.

But how do you determine that an accuser is "credible"?

And don't tell me that we look at their "reputation" or "credentials" or that they're a "professional," etc. Lots of people with great reputations, stellar credentials and great jobs turn out not to be credible while many people without those attributes are credible.

And what if the person being accused also has all of the attributes of credibility. Justin Fairfax is also a lifelong Democrat with an excellent reputation. The only reason people are now questioning his credibility is that he's been accused of a crime.

An investigation can provide information that can help people weigh the credibility of the accuser and the accused. But deciding based solely on the fact that an accusation has been made that one person is more credible than the other makes no sense.

[maxrandb]

22. But of course, the LT Governor, lifelong Democrat

lawyer and guy who has been in public service for years is NOT credible?

[MH1]

27. Investigate what can be investigated.

For example: The first accuser claims to have broken off contact with him. He said something different. Can he back that up? If so, she loses credibility.

I don't buy that someone being a "lifelong Democrat" insures they are always an honest broker. Unlike many of us on DU, most people's lives don't revolve primarily around politics. There are other potential motivations that could be at play. Not saying they are ... just that those sorts of things may be discoverable; and at least an attempt should be made.

[EffieBlack]

15. Sounds good to me

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. What would the investigation look like?

Who would run it? What process should it follow? What standard would it need to meet?

[EffieBlack]

19. Why not encourage Dr. Tyson to file a police report so professionals can investigate?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. That is definitely an option.

It could also be an ethics investigation run by a special committee, a standing board, etc.

[bdamomma]

79. sounds good to me

your suggestion.

There are options to take other than telling a person to step down without it being investigated first. This has been happening too much.

[maxrandb]

24. Exactly, how do you prove a negative?

Convenient that these charges can completely ruin a person's life, but there is no way to defend yourself.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Plenty of investigations, criminal and non, come to conclusions of no wrongdoing all the time.

[EffieBlack]

80. It's very bizarre to claim that Dr. Tyson shouldn't file charges because there may not be enough

evidence to obtain a conviction.

First of all, that's for the police and prosecutor to determine, not the complainant. Second, how does anyone know what will come out in an investigation? If he really did it, it's possible that the police could put together enough evidence for Fairfax to admit it or, at least, not be able to deny it credibly. And third, even if that doesn't happen and the investigation doesn't produce enough evidence to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it can certainly produce enough evidence to bolster her claim and convince people in the court of public opinion that he likely did it.

So, I see no good reason at this point to refuse to file a report and launch a police investigation.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

81. Right, criminal allegations should get criminal investigations, as well as internal ones if needed.

I was giving a general response to the general OP. When people say there should be an investigation for something like the allegations against Northam, there isn't always a process in place, and people can either feel like someone gets a pass or that a kangaroo court was unfair, depending on the outcome. (I'm a huge fan of processes and so I try to highlight to people when there is or isn't one.)

[EffieBlack]

82. Northam admitted and there's visual proof of what he was accused of

What would be the point of an investigation in Northam's case?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

83. That's the issue, as I see it.

When an employee is accused of doing something racist, a strong HR department can run it through their processes and determine whether discipline is warranted. If the employee isn't covered by a contract of some kind, at-will employment rules with be in effect, and the employer can keep or fire the employee as it sees fit. We run into trouble with elected officials, who are employees and in many cases have ethical rules they "should" follow, put into place either by the body they serve in or the party they belong to or the state they're in, but it's a lot fuzzier than Joe Blow at the marketing firm.

When the news about Northam broke, many people, including me, called for him to resign. His strategy seems to be to brazen it out -- he clearly thinks it's the right thing to do, and either he's not covered by ethical rules that anyone feels like enforcing, or there simply isn't enough political will among those who have the power to assemble a committee, a board, a hearing or a review of whether he "should" step down or not. And that strategy so far seems to be working, although his interview with CBS today didn't do him any favors.

As a result, a lot of people will feel this is an imperfect solution. Some feel he got off easy, some feel like he can move forward and work on himself while staying in his position as governor. So when I say, "what would an investigation look like," I'm asking whether we have the will to strengthen ethics rules, laws, processes, policies or whatever, whether we want to establish processes that hold people accountable in instances like Northam's, whether people think we should. TBH, I don't think the will is there right now, and ad hoc responses will continue to be the norm for awhile.

[UniteFightBack]

26. I agree just because I fear this will be used against us. I fear we will be set up in a big way

since the GOP has no morals or any kind of code of honor.

[brooklynite]

28. Did you apply that principle to Roy Moore when he ran for Senate?

[maxrandb]

30. I'm not from AL, I'm a Virginian

Of course, that standard wasn't applied to Roy Moore. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he was on the ballot for Senate and barely lost.

I'm sure if he had won, Mitch McConnell would have refused to seat him.

[MH1]

84. We aren't talking about an election here.

To me that's a HUGE problem. If the allegations are substantiated strongly but for some reason not enough for legal conviction ... why not have a recall election? (probably cost, but let's pretend for now that doesn't matter)

If this came up 3 months before an election, Fairfax could very well lose. But at that point it would be for voters to decide. Removing him now takes the choice away from the voters.

If this came up early enough in an election cycle, Fairfax could drop out and Dems have a different nominee.

With a recall election, if he is recalled then a special election would be held, and voters would be able to choose a D or R candidate.

I'm presuming VA doesn't have a recall election procedure because no one has mentioned it before. I'm just speaking hypothetically. I guess it could get expensive, but it does seem the most fair approach for the voters.

[brooklynite]

85. Not every State allows a recall election.

[LongtimeAZDem]

87. I did. I don't care who it is; I belive in evidence, and I abhor usubstantiated allegations

I say this as someone who would drink a toast if Moore were to drop dead of Ebola.

[Honeycombe8]

29. Did you post this about Franken?

I'm not being sarcastic. I am curious to know.

I see a number of posts here calling for an investigation instead of an ouster, but I did not see posts like that when Franken was being railroaded for far less serious accusations. What Franken was accused of wasn't even a crime.

[maxrandb]

31. I posted at the time that Franken should have stayed

I'm still trying to figure out what he did that cost the voters of Minnesota their elected senator.

Amazing how after he quit you heard crickets.

You'd think at least there would be a civil suit against him or something.

I believe at the time I argued he should stay

[Honeycombe8]

33. He couldn't stay. He was ousted.

The way the Senate works is it's a collaborative effort. You can't represent your state's interests if you are ostracized by other Senators and stripped of all committee seats. He would have been removed from committees and had no standing, once Schumer jumped on the bandwagon. He wouldn't have been able to join meetings of discussions on bills, contribute. Any bill he sponsored would not have been considered. He was effectively ousted. Forced to resign.

I was against Gillibrand, Harris, Booker, Schumer, Brown, and the others forcing him to resign. When McConnell signs your list, you know you're on the wrong side.

I believed at the time, and still do, that it was a Republican manipulation, that Franken hadn't done anything wrong, much less anything criminal, and that Gillibrand most of the early ones telling him to resign were doing so because it got rid of a possible Presidential contender, competition. Either that, or they are naive and easily manipulated by the Republicans. The ones that jumped on board after the first ones did are just followers and undeserving of any leadership position.

[Dream Girl]

52. I think some of learned that accusations can be weaponized.

I am very, very, Leary about this Fairfax thing. We are being played.

[Stonepounder]

32. Doesn't anyone think it is just a little strange that the three top Dems

in Virginia, within the space of a few days, suddenly are all being encouraged to resign, but there aren't any R's discovering skeletons in their closets? Or that if we actually force those top 3 Dems to resign, the next in line for Gov would be an R? Or that if that happens, he will get to pick the lower 2, completely negating the will of the people who decided to actually vote for Dems for the top slots?

[Honeycombe8]

37. As strange as accusations against Franken not long after the Senate Jeff Sessions hearing....

where Franken elicited lies from Sessions and was very effective. Franken became a target. Then when some Democratic voters started asking if he would run for President (he always said no), it became a matter of urgency to the Republicans to get rid of him. McConnell said Franken should resign. Gillibrand was happy to oblige the Republicans, as she demanded he leave. Soon after, Kathryn Harris did, too. Brown, Booker, ....

And thus, the Republicans were able to get rid of a danger to them.

Then they took aim at three Democrats in Virginia. Rinse and repeat.

[Stonepounder]

56. Exactly!

As a reasonable possibility, neocons have discovered that it is easy to get rid of a Dem who is being a nuisance by throwing sexual or racial accusations at them and the Democratic Party eats its own without a real investigation.

Look at Al Franken. He asked for a full investigation, he got railroaded out of the Senate instead.

[Liberty Belle]

34. I agree100%.

If an investigation proves wrongdoing, they can be removed or ostracized and pressured to resign.

If there is no real proof of lawbreaking, then anyone could be maligned or falsely accused.

Also if the "wrongdoing" is not criminal, but merely questionable ethics especially many years ago, then it should be up to voters to decide whether to keep or oust the official.

[Honeycombe8]

38. It's up to the voters of Virginia. It's for them to work out what to do. nt

[debsy]

36. Completely agreed!

Absolutely 100%

[Polly Hennessey]

39. Agree.

[pdsimdars]

40. AMEN!!! Day after day, hour after hour you hear the war drums on MSNBC

Every show fans the flames of manufactured outrage. On Bill Maher the other night, he spent a couple of minutes talking about the actual RECORD of Gov. Northrup. He expanded medicaid, expanded voting, and a few other things. He said regular people are more interested in what he is DOING to help them rather that what he did 30 years ago. And his record has been a good one. That is what is important. All this other stuff is smoke.

[Fresh_Start]

46. +1

Absolutely his record matters more than the costume 35 years ago.

[Mme. Defarge]

41. Absolument!

[marieo1]

43. Save the Democrats

And...........if the Democrats fall for it and insist they resign without a full investigation, the Reps will demand more and more resignations however they can get them, apparently they have hit men that know plenty of people that will make up any accusations, a lot of people can be bought and will say anything for the right amount of money!!

[pazzyanne]

44. Amy Klobuchar has not even declared yet and this is the headline

in the Huffington Post:

"Harry Reid rebuked Amy Klobuchar for mistreatment of staff"

In the article, this is what was printed:

"A spokesman for Reid said the retired senator prefers not to discuss private conversations he had with other senators. In this case, Reid also does not remember whether or not he had this discussion with Klobuchar, the spokesman said.

“Sen. Klobuchar is one of the most brilliant, hardest-working members of the Senate, and I was glad to serve alongside her,” said Reid. “She’s tireless when it comes to fighting for the people of Minnesota and the country, and that’s why she’s such a popular Senator back home and among her colleagues.”


It has started. Expect a lot more of these "revelations" compliments of the Koch Bros and Adellmans.

[perdita9]

45. An accusation is not proof

I had a friend falsely accused of a crime. An investigation cleared her.

I'm not saying I don't believe the women, I'm saying that everyone deserves due process.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

47. KR NT

[volstork]

48. Amen to that.

I’m sick of republican ratfcking. And of our capitulation to it.

[quakerboy]

50. How about

We apply the same standards across the board.

All the way across the board.

[democratisphere]

55. Gee. I thought that was the way it was always supposed to be.

Innocent until proven guilty instead of guilty until proven innocent by mob mentality.

[dalton99a]

68. +1. Why do Democrats apply the presumption of guilt on Democrats

while Republicans enjoy the presumption of innocence?

It is so fucked up.

[democratisphere]

69. Yep. I just don't get it.

[uponit7771]

70. +1, #metoo doesn't mean guilt by accusation, #NoFranken2.0 !!!

[AncientGeezer]

60. Didn't you demand CBS be "required" to take down a poll you disagreed with?

You know you did. A full throated shot at the 1st Amendment...that you never backed off from
Now you say we Don't demand resignations for RAPE accusations..by credible women.

I find that interesting...alarming... but interesting

[maxrandb]

64. Umm, millions of Virginians didn't vote for CBS to represent them

Your argument makes about as much sense as a football bat.

[The Wizard]

61. All that need be done

to ruin a person's career or life is a pointed finger. Using the Pox News tactic of making it a question such as "Is Trump still selling kiddie porn?"

[samnsara]

63. i am all for that...

[MustLoveBeagles]

65. Thank you for this thread maxrandb

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2019, 12:41 AM - Edit history (1)

When the story with the governor first surfaced, I didn't believe it was the result of ratfucking until the allegations against the Lt. Governor came to light right after. It gave me pause and made me reconsider that possibility. This weeks events have had me reeling so I'll try my best to make some sense of my feelings in this post.

I have to confess that when all this started I was shocked and disgusted by the blackface photo and still am truth be told. I thought that the governor initially handled it appropriately. I thought his apology was sincere until he backtracked and changed his story. His tone deaf and embarrassing press conference on Saturday didn't help matters either. It's something that still makes me cringe thinking about it. I felt at that time that he'd disgraced himself and I wanted him to resign. I still sort of feel that way but realize that circumstances have changed. He does need to make amends to his constituents and prove with his actions going forward that he really has changed and realizes the hurt his actions have caused. I'm now willing to give him another chance and hope that he doesn't blow it this time.

The rape accusations against Lt. Governor, coming immediately after the revelations about the Governor were also shocking. On the surface the two women, especially the first accuser, seem very credible. Still I think an investigation of the allegations is in order. I'm not comfortable with calling for his resignation based on accusations alone. There has to be some proof. I'm dismayed by the piling on of this man before all the facts are known.

Attorney General Herring volunteered the info on his own blackface incident. He apologized and showed genuine remorse for his actions. Unlike the Governor, he didn't recant his apology later and make an ass of himself at a press conference. He should not resign.

[standingtall]

66. Investigation need to be done before demanding someone resign

This cycle of insisting to believe all accusers simply on their word needs to be broken, before this toxic precedent we are on the verge of embracing destroys the Democratic party.

[dalton99a]

67. No. No due process. Time is of the essence.

The accused Democrat must be forced to resign and leave immediately. ASAP. STAT.

We don't them to vandalize the furniture and steal pens and pencils from their desk drawers.

[jcmaine72]

74. Sounds fine to me as long as we hold ReThugs to the same standard.

We know we'll investigate and hold our own to discernable standards of decency. Do you think they ever would?

[Hortensis]

75. All allegations should be investigated, of course.

Fairfax was a rising star, and now we're talking about trashing his career, his life potentially, as if it meant as little to most of us as it actually does. Discussion will move on with the news cycle.

Here's another question:

What do we then do when investigation finds nothing to support exoneration or establish guilt? This will almost always be the case, of course, in these he-said/she-saids. And coming after the devastating accusation bomb, the case for innocence has to be built of much stronger timbers than the accusation's. Lifelong friends saying the man they know just wouldn't do something like that aren't worth quoting and aren't.

These situations are not fair. Digging up evidence to undermine the credibility of female accusers, no matter how true, would be decried as victim shaming and would most often backfire spectacularly. But the accused man's background is supposed to be mined for dirt, and producing anything results in lots of clicks on articles.

Btw, others may have noted that the "credibility" of accusers carries great weight. As long as their stories hold together and they look sincere, they're credible and various people issue statements saying they believe their story.

The accused? When's the last time a very sincere-seeming denial that doesn't trip over itself factually has been interpreted as conferring credibility and therefore innocence? Doesn't work that way.

In strategic terms for dealing with these political attacks, if investigation is expected from the beginning to be a dry hole changing nothing factually, how about investigation as a delaying tactic, with principled response both excuse and other goal? Capricious national media and political junkie attention will have moved on to new events before investigations are completed, and the investigations' ends eventually reported on page 2 (or not bothered with, since often the political hash will have been effectively settled before then).

Hmmm? We really could use a better strategy than looking cold, hard situations in the face and expecting those accused to fall on their swords. Or at least another one.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

76. Agree. It's fundamental to democracy.

People are elected to public office using Constitutional and statutory processes that ideally represents the will of voters in the related jurisdiction.

A person elected under those circumstances should only be subject to removal - which invalidates the public's will - using statues and rules established by that same jurisdiction along with traditional due process.

Any persons outside that jurisdiction having concerns should express their thoughts to their elected representatives or political party officials.

Trial by internet blog or small town telephone gossip party-line undermines the foundations of justice.

.......... ..........

[bluecollar2]

86. Why do you hate murica?

[denvine]

88. Totally agree!

If we would have had that standard in place, we may still have Al Franken!