Anybody demanding Fairfax resign w/o an Investigation is INDEED "Franken-ing" him.

[Baltimike]

full stop.

This is an *accusation*...not a fucking conviction.

[MH1]

1. And, setting a norm that just accusation is enough.

I realized this in another thread discussing a potential prez candidate. Someone brought up some b.s. accusation from the past, as if it had merit. It was quickly pointed out that the accusation had been thoroughly debunked long ago.

However, it had stayed in this person's mind as a negative against the candidate. Even though it was clearly debunked.

Let's not give unproven accusations airtime. The first thing out of our mouths/keyboards should be: are you taking legal steps? Where is your evidence? If accuser doesn't come forward and show evidence, they are not credible. When they do present "evidence" it needs to be reviewed thoroughly.

Never forget the Swift (Boat) Liars. They are warming up again.

[Baltimike]

2. exactly. spot on. nt

[boston bean]

3. Except this isn't just "an"accusation. It is two accusations. One has receipts.

Ie has people she told about it and named him at the time who have also come forward.

[Baltimike]

5. If that's the case, let them press charges.

There are remedies here that do not involve convicting someone before an investigation.

[OliverQ]

25. Statute of limitations are up on both cases, so they can't.

[brush]

53. Not true. Stop spreading falsehoods.

[OliverQ]

61. Being mistaken about something doesn't mean I'm spreading falsehoods.

Reported you. That's obnoxious.

[brush]

62. Everyone is entitled to due process.

Google before posting misleading info..

[OliverQ]

63. One of the women said she's not pressing charges

so due process isn't going to happen. And most sexual assault claims do have statutes of limitations.

[brush]

68. 15 yrs for the Tyson state (still in force), the other state there is no limit.

[EffieBlack]

60. That's not true.

[Baltimike]

7. and those aren't "reciepts", it's supposition. nt

[cstanleytech]

9. Doesn't matter if its one or two there still needs to be an investigation.

If there is not and he is forced out solely on the accusation you can bet this will encourage certain parties (mainly the Repugnants, Russia and China) to hire people to make false claims just to cheaply remove a politician.

[MH1]

12. One, two, five, doesn't matter, if none are substantiated.

I agree that the second one against Fairfax sounds more serious. But still, until an accusation is properly investigated and substantiated by proper authorities, it shouldn't be used to shitcan him; he is a person with rights, too. Both women had the right and power to bring these accusations in a more timely manner. I don't agree with a statute of limitations for rape. But do accept the reality that it is a lot harder to prove when a lot of time goes by. An an unproven accusation shouldn't be used to destroy a person. (or potentially a STATE, in this case, but lots of people don't seem to care about that.)

One, two, five and all or even one are substantiated? Whole different story.

[EffieBlack]

23. The statute of limitations is still running for both of these allegations

There's nothing stopping either woman from filing charges and initiating an investigation.

[Baltimike]

26. This, and more are going to keep coming.

it's the nature of this play.

[boston bean]

52. Truly disappointing that you perpetuate that this has some bearing in whether they are telling the

truth.

[pandr32]

51. Agreed

[dalton99a]

4. No one accused of a crime should be denied due process.

[Baltimike]

6. It's really that simple. nt

[irresistable]

8. He will be impeached.

[lark]

10. Not the same as Franken, this includes charges of RAPE - not inappropriate comedy.

R>A>P>E>

I do want an investigation, even though those are often so demeaning to the women and often very unfair and biased towards the guy - example - Kavarape - who was 100% guilty. The investigation didn't live up to the name, was corrupt and so wrongly cleared him. Hopefully they'll find proof that these claims are lies. However, I do have to say as a former rape counselor, that the 2nd victim running to a friends' crying immediately afterwards is a huge bit of proof - enormous in fact if corroborated..

Now, I hope both of these are hit jobs, that would be my strong personal preference, but it just looks very unlikely at this point.

[Baltimike]

11. No police report, going solely off unsubstantiated claims w/o an investigation is INDEED

a hit job.

I counseled rape victims too. I also saw the flip side of females accusing males of rape when it was really regret the next day.

This deserves a thorough investigation, not a political lynch mob.

Also, victim #2 also made the same accusations against a basketball player around the same time.

It's possible, but we need to investigate it...not ruin his career because of it

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Awful convenient for your argument you found all the liars.

I counseled rape victims too. I also saw the flip side of females accusing males of rape when it was really regret the next day.

Over the past 20 years, only 2-10% of rape accusations (Prof Ford's lawyer says she believes this was attempted rape) are proven to be fake, argue the authors of a 2010 US study.

That figure does not include any unsubstantiated accusations where an investigation was unable to prove a sexual assault occurred, so an accurate figure for the total remains unknown.

Other studies have figures in the same range. The FBI has put the number of "unfounded" rapes - those determined to be false after investigation - at 8%

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684

[EffieBlack]

27. Where did you get from that that she claimed to have "found all the liars?"

The fact that most rape claims are likely to be true does not mean that they all are true or that they shouldn't be investigated to determine if they're true or false.

Under your argument, the fact that most police shootings of black men were justified means that we should never investigate police shootings of unarmed black men.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I never said there shouldn't be investigations.

I said the research suggests false sexual assaults allegations are rare.

[Baltimike]

28. Seeing the flip side does NOT equate with the girls I counseled

it is disingenuous of you to say so.

None of your numbers refute my argument...it STILL happens. Let's let the FBI *investigate*. You're using their numbers, so you obviously trust them to do it, right?

[Drunken Irishman]

17. Was the accusations against Kavanaugh a hit job?

I doubt you thought so back in September. There was no police report and the only investigation we got was a sham one that didn't uncover a damn thing because, well, it turned out to be his word against her's. The only evidence we ever had on that one was second-hand admissions and circumstantial evidence.

But we also had a very credible witness who came forward despite the potential of death threats.

There's nothing different here. It's the exact same situation. Funny, though, that DU believed the victim then. Also funny that I don't recall many posts saying we shouldn't jump to conclusions and wait for things to play out through an investigation before demanding his nomination be pulled.

It's also telling you fall back on the argument of false rape accusations when, statistically, it's a very small number. I'd expect someone who counseled rape victims would know that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I wish the poster would share with us the percentage of women he was counseling that were liars.

It's also telling you fall back on the argument of false rape accusations when, statistically, it's a very small number. I'd expect someone who counseled rape victims would know that.

[Baltimike]

22. You make many assumptions, so your concern does not surpise me

and while I appreciate your attempt to marginalize the situation, we all know rape is a very under reported crime, and STILL we see examples of females making it up, and while the percentage is low, it STILL fucking happens.

oh, and while my handle is mike, I am a girl. Nice that you decided a whole fucking lot about me and acted entitled to it.

My counseling experience involved under age girls. None of MY girls made anything up...and their age, they could NOT consent in any way.

That doesn't negate that it happens, and it certainly doesn't substantiate anything these women are saying now, so...false equivalence much?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. What assumptions did I make?

I counseled rape victims too. I also saw the flip side of females accusing males of rape when it was really regret the next day.

The assertion embodied in your statement is that false allegations are a common occurrence when the data suggests it is rare, and all the sophistry one can muster can not obscure that simple truth.

[Baltimike]

35. My gender, for one.

I never said that false allegations are a common occurrence...just that they do occur.

I pointedly told you that was your stretch...not mine.

[EffieBlack]

31. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief that we're even having to have this discussion anywhere

much less, on a progressive discussion board.

[Baltimike]

36. convicted without so much as an investigation. This is bullshit. nt

[Baltimike]

24. apples and oranges, but thanls for playing.

I said I advocated for an INVESTIGATION. You seem to think that means exoneration.

That's not MY stretch...it's yours.

[Drunken Irishman]

56. lol

It's apples to apples.

Most here felt he should withdraw even before his fraud investigation. And do you think that investigation exonerated him? lol

[Baltimike]

58. lololol

People's opinions are NOT matters of fact.

[Drunken Irishman]

59. Answer the question...

Do you believe the investigation into Kavanaugh exonerated him? Do you believe Ford? Do you feel the investigation was legitimate?

[Baltimike]

65. I did. You just don't like my answer.

[Drunken Irishman]

69. No you didn't.

Last edited Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:07 AM - Edit history (1)

You've done nothing but deflect. You can't even adequately back up the claim that this is an apples to oranges situation comparing it to Kavanaugh - both had very credible witnesses who came forward but hadn't filed a police report. I don't remember many DUers asking for due process for him, yet suddenly everyone is for it with Fairfax. Moreover, I asked if you believed the legitimacy of the investigation into Kavanaugh...which you've refused to answer.

Do you believe Kavanaugh was exonerated?

[lark]

45. So because she was raped twice she's not believable?

Weird you say that about women having regrets, I never once had a call like that in the 3 years I worked at the Rape Crisis Center. I know it happens, but since you were a rape counselor you know that 80% of rapes are not reported and that few end up being fakes. Also, one ran IMMEDIATELY to a friend afterwards, crying and extremely upset..

Also weird that you claim that her being raped twice somehow makes her less believable? WTF, since you worked in the field, you should know that women who are raped once are more vulnerable, in general, to a 2nd assault, usually unrelated to the first.

I don't trust investigations in general when it comes to rape, hate how they re-victimize the victims and side with the rapist so many times, but this is different in some ways and I agree 100% that one needs to be held.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Thank you for your work.

[Drunken Irishman]

13. Not really. Only being consistent with my message.

I believe, as most DU did back in September, that Kavanaugh should not have been seated to the Supreme Court for the very credible accusations leveled against him. That was prior to the sham investigation, too, which was absurd and offensive.

Fairfax is toxic and harming his position in government. He's lost all credibility. It sucks - but that's the most basic tenant of governing and once you lose it, the right thing to do is step aside. I've believed this for Republicans and I certainly believe it for Democrats. Any defense of him not resigning is just hypocrisy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I believed Ms. Ford and she had arguably less corroboration than Vanessa Tyson and Meredith Watson

[Drunken Irishman]

19. Absolutely - I believe each and every one of 'em.

[Baltimike]

29. But this isn't like Dr. Ford...it's more like Juanita Broderick. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. What makes Vanessa Tyson and Meredith Watson's allegations more like Juanita Broaddrick's?

[Baltimike]

42. The expectation that they should resign without an investigation

and acting like "he wasn't famous enough for me to make the accusation"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. There was an expectation that Bill Clinton should resign

There was an expectation that Bill Clinton should resign because of Juanita Broddrick's allegation?

[Baltimike]

47. No...there was NO expectation that President Clinton should resign

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. The FBI found Ms. Broddrick's charges inconclusive.

In their 2000 book The Hunting of the President, Joe Conason and Gene Lyons note that the FBI investigated the allegation for Kenneth Starr's Independent Counsel office, and found the evidence "inconclusive."

https://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick

Why would he resign over charges that were found to be inconclusive?




Some expected him to resign over his role in the Lewinsky affair. Most of us didn't.

"he wasn't famous enough for me to make the accusation"

Who? Bill Clinton was the governor.

[Baltimike]

49. Did the FBI find Tyson's claim accurate?

Why should Fairfax resign over charges that haven't been found to be conclusive?

Juanita Broderick signed an affidavit saying Clinton never touched her. Twenty some odd years later, she changed her story and said she didn't come forth earlier because he wasn't president then.

Same thing here...suddenly, someone comes forward because it looked like Fairfax was going to become Governor.

But also....wow.

Just wow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I said there should be an investigation.

Bill Clinton was governor when Broddrick alleges the assault occurred. He certainly was famous in Arkansas. And her allegations didn't become public until 1999, long after he became famous.

[Baltimike]

55. I agree with you...

And the same rings true with Fairfax. She came through when she thought he would become governor. The other lady also made the same allegation toward a basketball player at Duke.

We. need. an. investigation.

[bullwinkle428]

43. Has she denied the allegation under oath? If not, then NOTHING like Juanita Brodderick.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Ms. Broddrick is/was allied with Bill Clinton's political enemies.

There is no evidence Ms. Tyson and Ms. Watson are allied with Mr. Fairfax's political enemies.

[dsc]

34. actually no she didn't

after they both testified she had the fact he had demonstrably lied under oath while defending himself. Fairfax hasn't.

[Baltimike]

39. omg, that's right! I forgot about that in all the hoopla nt

[Renew Deal]

14. Why didn't Franken do what Northam is doing?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. He cared about the party?

[Baltimike]

32. Because the game was new...no one knew it was a hit job until after it was over.

and everyone slithered back under their rocks.

[democratisphere]

38. I don't think Al Franken should have resigned. I believe he should have

fought the charges as this was absolutely another redumbliCON hit job.

[standingtall]

15. Most people who dont believe it is Frankening

to have Fairfax or anybody else resign without an investigation,still to this day don't believe Al Franken was Al Franken'd.

[Baltimike]

33. ain't that the truth. nt

[IluvPitties]

57. I don't feel this is the same.

Franken was never accused of rape.

[LexVegas]

64. Yes, because historically, investigations have worked well for bringing justice to women.

[Baltimike]

67. ...

That certainly doesn't mean we fire men on decades on accusations just because they've decided to make an allegation.

[hughee99]

66. Who investigates this? Normally a complaint would be filed

With the police.