Once again, legalizing prostitution INCREASES the incidence of human trafficking.

[Squinch]

A big prostitution story is in the news again. As always happens when a big prostitution story is in the news, there have been and will be a spate of threads calling for the legalization of prostitution.

Here is a study on the effect on trafficking of legalizing prostitution:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

Here is a summary of their findings, put together by Harvard Law School:
https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

Here are some highlights:

Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.


The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.


Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.


The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.

If you use the services of a prostitute, chances are very high that you are participating in the enslavement and exploitation of another human being.

[ck4829]

1. K&R. Legalizing prostitution is just a smiley face sticker on social and economic inequality

Sex should be free in every sense of the word. Freedom of consent. No exchange of money or goods.

Even if you take pimps out of the equation, if someone NEEDS to have sex just to pay the bills and put food on the table, then I would say you're not really free at all.

[Squinch]

2. Exactly. There seems to be a large contingent, I imagine of mostly men, who want to slap

the band aid of legalization on this so they feel OK when they participate in the enslavement of other people.

It's ridiculous.

[c-rational]

40. Well said. Your last line made me think of the Four Freedoms Memorial, the last two being

freedom from want and freedom from worry.

[Hortensis]

87. Tell a woman in jail how much more free she is

than if she hadn't been arrested for hustling, whether for her living or just a little extra enterprise to build her vacation fund.

I think that what validity there is in the dynamics described should be evaluated on its own, and what the best courses could be, not used as a pole to run ideological flags up. Another truth is that freedom must include sovereignty over our bodies.

There are excellent stats for results of government-controlled birth control, both imposed and suppressed, btw. With birth rates dropping far below what our economy demands, and people like Kavanaugh being placed on high courts, that's something to keep in mind.

[ck4829]

119. No, we shouldn't throw people in jail because they are prostitutes

But there is inequality through prostitution as well, let's talk about that.

Human trafficking is quite the issue here in Ohio.

[Hortensis]

120. Absolutely. I strongly suspect the increase in trafficking

is in good part due, not directly to legalization of prostitution, but to its effects on ingrained societal (male especially) acceptance of trafficking and refusal to enforce laws that would cost tax dollars and penalize customers and businesses.

Whenever trafficking, especially of children, is brought up, I always ask that old question of how it is that customers can connect with suppliers but local law enforcement can't. Crickets when the people have been blaming foreign criminals and immigration, of course.

Btw, on the bright side, I also strongly suspect internet information has to be revolutionizing local government functions, lessening corruption and incompetence, and very much affecting government behaviors around these issues. Changes due to dramatically better information availability to voters are slower in government, of course, where deep-seated human attitudes, civic procedures and allocation of funds, and of course partisan obstructions, are involved.

But I say that thinking of toasters. When Amazon feedback was new, I was shocked to learn that by far most manufacturers had degraded themselves to producing bad products which were unable to perform their simple functions well, or for long; shoddy performance right from the start was common. Now we're as unlikely to pick up a genuinely bad toaster at the store as for a while we were to luck into a genuinely good, reliable one. Above all, our standards of what we expect and will accept have risen tremendously with that.

[janterry]

3. Exactly. Thank you!

The objectification of women's bodies leads to violence. It is dehumanizing.

The sexism - and internalized sexism - that abounds on the prostitution thread is horrifying. THANK YOU for this thread

[Squinch]

4. You're welcomed, but I have no faith it will do any good. I post it every time there is a

prostitution story that drags these calls for legalization out of the woodwork.

People want to justify their participation in the enslavement of human beings, so this information just doesn't seem to stick.

[janterry]

5. It's the old rube that justifies the 'john'. They say

it's all okay. The woman is willing - and, besides, they are 'generous' with their money - so they are helping her.

Still, it's important to post. (and so, thank you

[TreasonousBastard]

6. That nasty ol' "scale effect" rears its ugly head again...

that same effect exists in clothing production, agriculture, and many other sectors where employment enforcements tend to be minimized. If a trade expands, the bad stuff associated with it tends to expand. I would suggest that in illegal trades, the bad stuff expands further and faster than in legal ones.

If you buy shoes, they are likely the product of exploited labor. Even in the US, clothing factories have been occasionally been indicted for wage, hour, and safety violations. Overseas, enforcement is lackadaisical, if there are any rules at all.

So, we're back to what's so special about sex work that it should be singled out for illegality? More to the point would be to enforce employment rules, which is much easier to do in legal industries. Tax collection, too.

One might argue that we single out other occupations for illegality, such as killers for hire, blackmailers, thieves, and crack dealers. Of course we do, but those and similar crimes have victims. While one may argue whether or not prostitution is "victim-less" it is still a voluntary deal. If it becomes involuntary, then that is the crime.

It is undeniable that in wealthy countries there are fewer women (and men, btw) who would rush to become prostitutes when there are other options, leading to a trade. There aren't that many who would rush to become hotel housekeepers, either. Or bedpan cleaners in nursing homes.

[Squinch]

7. Are you saying that, even if it increases human trafficking, you are still in favor of legalization?

[TreasonousBastard]

8. No. I am saying that they are two different, but related, questions.

[thesquanderer]

108. In all policy decisions you have to weigh ALL the consequences, positive and negative.

You question sounds black and white.

Allowing people to drive automobiles costs the lives of about 30 thousand Americans per year. Just so we can get places more quickly. Is that worth it? Is the automobile in our society immoral? This is actually not an easy question. But I think one could argue for the elimination of automobiles on ethical grounds at least as strongly as you could argue for keeping prostitution illegal. (And we've only had cars for a bit over 100 years, while prostitution is, of course, the world's oldest profession. IOW, we have plenty of evidence that human societies can realistically exist perfectly well without cars and their associated loss of life, while we have no evidence of human societies without prostitution.)

As other posts have brought up, Amnesty International favors legalization (which doesn't mean it's right, but means there is at least a case to be made, even by a human rights group), and keeping it criminalized has negative consequences as well (like putting women in jail). It is simplistic to say that, because of some bad consequences, something should be eliminated from consideration, without at least considering the possibility of offsetting good consequences.

[Squinch]

109. There are no ends that justify the means of allowing the enslavement of people.

[thesquanderer]

115. What ends justify the death of 30k people a year in car accidents?

Just so the rest of us can get places more quickly?

That's a super low bar for killing 30k people a year. And a whole lot more injuries. (And that's just in the U.S.!)

Is knowing that there will be some terrible ramifications sufficient to not do something, without even considering any positive ramifications?

You know what other means allowed the enslavement of people? Boats. Should all boats have been prohibited, for all time?

Human trafficking will exist, and must be fought, regardless of how many countries have legal vs. illegal prostitution.

And if you think keeping it illegal will keep human trafficking under control, let's look at how well keeping drugs illegal has kept the illegal drug trade under control.

[Squinch]

116. Every fucking time.

[thesquanderer]

117. Well that's a cogent counter argument...

Have you read the stories about people who have kept domestic workers essentially as slaves? Does that mean we should make it illegal to be a maid?

And I think TreasonousBastard and Hortensis and Crazytown and IluvPitties have made some good points...

[thesquanderer]

121. What do you think of Kamala Harris' support for decriminalization...

...of "sex work" between consenting adults? (Which sounds very close to legalizing prostitution to me...)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-sex-work-decriminalizing_n_5c7589eee4b062b30eb89e32

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. By your logic there should be NO international trade because ... bad stuff. . . . nt

[TreasonousBastard]

23. I did not say that, and I do not believe that...

It is the observation that people do bad things. Ergo, the more things that people do, the more bad things they will do. It is is as simple as that.

We do not outlaw restaurants because some are terrible.

The law, systems of ethics, local customs, etc. are among the tools we have to limit the bad stuff and try to help the good stuff outweigh it.

[Farmer-Rick]

52. I don't agree with you

You imply that the only bad thing about prostitution is that "some" prostitution, like "some" factories have bad stuff associated with it.

But I say that prostitution unto itself has built in bad things that no matter how hard you regulate it, those bad things will always happen, unlike a factory.

First, think about it. Would anyone willingly have sex with someone they didn't choose if there was another option for obtaining what they need or want? Of course NOT. So, the person in some way is being coerced into having sex they don't want no matter how you look at it. Once you say it's OK to coerce a person into having sex you have turned them into a commodity a thing to be used in the most intimate manner then paid off to appear as a legitimate trade transaction.

It is perversion of human relationships. I don't care about the sex, I care that these two are pretending at a relationship that should be about caring and concern for each other. Ever notice that the prostitute has to pretend they like it? Every researcher has noted this. It's because what they are doing is really imitating a real relationship only without any real emotional involvement making it a commodity and not a connection between 2 people who care for each other. This turns human relationships into commodities to be bought and sold. This attitude spreads throughout the rest of society.

Turning a person into a commodity always has severe repercussions to the rest of society. Ever wonder why polygamous societies have the highest rates of child abuse? Why do polygamous societies always go for younger and younger brides for older and older men? Why do polygamous societies frequently abuse small boys as well as prepubescent girls as a mater of course. Because once you turn women into commodities you have made it fair game to have that same attitude towards all weaker people.

Just like a thief is doing something immoral as well as illegal, so is a John who uses a prostitute. In both cases no one gets hurt right? But prostitutes are the victims. They may be the end result of a trade but they are also victims of the John. He(it's usually always a he) can use and very likely abuse the prostitute with very little repercussion. Commoditizing people and relationships is a very dangerous precedent to establish in a peaceful society.

[flibbitygiblets]

69. To your first point

Would anyone choose prostitution when other employment is available? Most would not, but your point doesn't take into consideration that a sex worker could charge significantly more than say, a Walmart cashier. So based on earning power, a person might choose the former. Similar truth for exotic dancers.

I'm not disagreeing with your, or the OPs overall point, just think you oversimplified the situation from a financial consideration.

[TreasonousBastard]

71. Well...

First, think about it. Would anyone willingly have sex with someone they didn't choose if there was another option for obtaining what they need or want?

The same can be said for cleaning bedpans.

No one has any right to argue with you if you think prostitution is immoral any more than arguing with you about whether eating meat is immoral.

However, it may be best not to forget that human desire has been commodified from the beginning. The guys at Cave 31 went over the mountain to kill the men at Cave 22 and steal their women, and it went downhill from there as technology improved.

Women marrying for money never happens? Old men marrying cute young things to prove something about their masculinity never happened? There really isn't anything about sex that is so magical that we have to have so many rules about it.

If I am a wrestler challenging you, we have bodily contact. If you are a doctor examining me, we have bodily contact. Just greeting each other, we may shake hands. At what point to these touches become sexual and forbidden?

Sure, it seems obvious, and it largely is, but just try to write the rules that apply to all circumstances-- "Bumping uglies is only permissible when no money changes hands and both parties are in love." Sure. That'll work, until it reminds someone of community property.

Human sexuality is confusing enough without making up more rules than we need.

[treestar]

111. oh gross

a woman marrying for money is getting a lot of money and a lot more than just money. Not that it's a recipe for happiness. But it's a lot better than having sex with different strangers over time. The "payor" is getting a lot more than sex, too, whatever social capital remains of your ability to buy a younger woman who everyone knows is only marrying him for his money, but he gets to fool himself about his desirability. He may not even be getting any sex, i.e. the Dotard.

[kcr]

112. The modern, feminist objection isn't about morality. It's about commodity.

It isn't just like cleaning a bed pan. There are bed pans that need to be cleaned. It is among the many services that exist to be performed for a functioning society, therefore a labor market exists to perform them. Commodifying sex commodifies access to bodies and leads to women being trafficked. Legalization increases demand and when the supply doesn't increase enough to meet it, increased trafficking results. Women aren't the only victims, but because they're the majority, they are disproportionately affected by the social and institutional damages and the increased inequality. This is the main, strong feminist objection to prostitution, but the pro-legalization movement likes to muddy the waters by mixing in the traditional moral religious objections.

[treestar]

110. You don't see a huge difference when it comes to "sex work?"

That is very invasive "work." Nothing like any other job, no matter how hard.

[ForgedCrank]

9. Just for a point of dissent,

Ok, now I want to be very clear up front, I am not attempting to minimize the terrible plague of human rights violations or the depersonalize of women. But in order to argue effectively, one has to view this from the perspective of the people who perpetrate these atrocious acts and operate these "businesses" because these people are the targets of the law, and the perpetrators of the atrocities we witness.

As disgusting as it may sound, to these people, the women (and even little girls in many cases) are viewed as resources and property with a set value to be sold for profit. The same can be said for the consumers of what is perceived as "goods". I know this sounds despicable (because it is), but stay with me for a minute. We have to force ourselves to view this from the other side in order to effectively combat it.

Jumping to legalization: oversight here is the primary goal, and this can be used to monitor for most of the things that we find most atrocious such as forced slavery, underage young women and girls, disease propagation, etc. We could claim our primary goal is to completely put an end to all prostitution, but I think we should realize by now that this is an unrealistic and impossible task according to the history of humans. Many have tried, and all have failed.
So what can we do?
Done with the proper levels of oversight, we can mitigate the black market in many ways. Of course there should be no legal market for underage women or unwilling participants, and those should be pursued with as much diligence as possible and stomped out. But the facts will always remain: the types of people who indulge in this behavior are not going to change their habits, and the market will always exist because of the demand for it. We simply have to ask ourselves: are willing to intervene and make an attempt to control as much of it as possible in order to weed out the most evil participants and save as many women from this hell as possible? Or do we take an irrational position out of pure conviction and keep doing what we are doing now, or more of it? Simply rounding them up and throwing them in jail has not been very effective.
I realize there is no solution because at the bottom level here, we are dealing with twisted people who are attracted to little girls. I don't think there is much that can be done to "fix" that, we simply need to catch these people and lock them up along with those selling to them. But we can at the very least intervene with the top-level, everyday prostitution and help a lot of women get out of the business if they wish, and assist the rest with health services, oversight, and monitoring.
I know there are a lot of gaps in this position because I can't think of every perspective, but to me, it seems that at least we would be doing something effective to help in mitigation of the black market where most of the really bad things happen.

[Squinch]

17. You say that "Done with the proper levels of oversight we can mitigate the black market."

The source I quoted says that is absolutely not the case.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Your defn of prostitution as "twisted people attracted to little girls" is antiquated at best

As eggplant wrote in another thread:

Thank you

Sex workers are adults. Minors are not workers, they are victims.
Sex workers come in all shapes, sizes, and genders. Sex workers are not exclusively women for men.
Sex workers are not all prostitutes. Strip club dancers are sex workers. Sex therapists are sex workers. Porn stars are sex workers./div]

[ForgedCrank]

105. except that if you actually read my opinion, you'll note that I clearly

define two different and very well defined classifications here... 1) those who are willing adults 2) everyone else.
And yes, adults who are attracted to little girls are indeed twisted (among other things).

[littlemissmartypants]

10. Much better post than that other one.

Thanks. ❤

[Loki Liesmith]

20. Nah. This one is foolish and cherry picks data.

[littlemissmartypants]

24. Are you saying you liked my data?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11855472

[smirkymonkey]

11. +1000

[crazytown]

12. Contested. Not the Australian Experience.

http://humantraffickingsearch.org/2017725sex-trafficking-vs-sex-work-what-you-need-to-know/

[crazytown]

13. Contested. Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

[PTWB]

22. Thanks for posting this. It's good to have a more complete picture.

[crazytown]

41. 'No Smoking Gun' - OP study

“ there is no “smoking gun” proving that ... the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows.”

Let me put my cards on the table. I am accept the argument that prostitution is ‘disgrading to women’ and that a proportion of prostitutes suffer irreparable psychological damage from sex work.

Patriarchy established and enforces male ownership of women’s bodies. In typical prostitution a man pays to own a women’s body for sex.

But. I am not convinced that prohibition is the answer. The OP study also concludes that legalisation improves the health, safety and working conditions of prostitutes. If traffickers are attracted to the market, the obvious answer seems to me to devote more resources to surveillance and law enforcement.

In Australia during the legalisation the feminist case was sabotaged by radicals who argued PIV sex was degrading to women, period. What followed was a re-enactment of the ‘80s sex wars.

What I want to say is that sincere people with progressive views can disagree on this subject. It is not black or white. Opponents can share similar values but disagree on the real world consequences. In New South Wales, Australia, the consensus is legalisation has done more good than harm. Unlike Germany for example, prostitution has been legal for 23 years, and the substantial improvement in working conditions for prostitutes is not contested.

[PTWB]

106. OP has ignored both of your studies.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Problem is worldwide wage&wealth inequality, NOT prostitution.

Trafficking is because there is an economic disparity.

Crackdown on trafficking, not on sex workers who have many reasons to be in that work and as competent adults must be allowed to make choices.

Shift the resources that chase and lock up women and TG in disproportionate numbers to defeating trafficking.

Raise up other countries, which will help reduce global tensions and problems. (Yes it will take time so the more it is worked on the sooner it happens.) Of course tRump's Moscow handler does not approve of reducing global tensions and problems.

[Squinch]

16. Prostitution is a good place to stop human trafficking. People who are enslaved today

cannot wait until we solve the issue of economic disparity.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. 1) Can't be stopped. 2) Won't stop trafficking. 3) Stop creating more misery with victiimless crimes

The victimful crime is the trafficking and the pimping. Make those people miserable, NOT the women and men on the street or in "escort" services or running their own little business as a dominatrix. Cracking down on sex workers just creates more misery for people who are just trying to get by or provide a desired service.

I'll bet there are no trafficked women in the brothels in Amsterdam and Nevada.

[Squinch]

21. Amsterdam has a huge problem with Asian and Eastern European women being trafficked.

I don't know about Nevada, but I'm pretty sure trafficking goes on there. As the source I provided says, when prostitution is legalized, the demand goes up and a trafficked girl is lots cheaper to provide than a non-trafficked one.

And calling this a victimless crime is really ignorant.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

103. Prostitution is victimless. Pimping and trafficking are not.

Was your screen highly reflective when you called me "ignorant"?

If two adults agree to have a sexual relationship, of any of a multitude of kinds, for no money, there is no victim. Both parties are happy and if any third party's feelings are injured then they'll just have to get over them or talk with the relevant party.

If two adults agree to have a sexual relationship, of any of a multitude of kinds, for money, there is no victim. Both parties are happy because they had an agreement and were satisfied. Otherwise the rules governing business transactions prevail.

In your links you omitted this key paragraph that runs counter to your line of argument (emphasis added):

While trafficking inflows may be lower where prostitution is criminalized, there may be severe repercussions for those working in the industry. For example, criminalizing prostitution penalizes sex workers rather than the people who earn most of the profits (pimps and traffickers).

[Captain Stern]

25. Legalizing driving has caused an increase in DWI's. That's true.

So, what we do, is keep driving legal, and crack down on drunk driving.

We could do that with prostitution also.

[Snake Plissken]

26. This study is seriously flawed, since most of the 150 countries are corrupt 3rd world countries

where it doesn't matter what is legal and what is not, since law enforcement works with organized crime.

This has to be looked at on a country by country basis.

Personally I don't indulge in sex with random people so prostitution is on no use to me, but to claim that legalization does not reduced the instances of human trafficking in non 3rd world countries such as the Netherlands is ludicrous.

[IluvPitties]

28. Exactly. Exploitation of all kinds is rampant in places were laws are not enforced.

[Squinch]

33. Yes. Of course. Sweden is a corrupt 3rd world country.

[IluvPitties]

34. Can I ask you something?

How is participating in porn different from being an escort? I am not being facetious- I am actually interested in your take, if you don't mind.

[Squinch]

35. FFS, again. WTF does that have to do with anything?

[IluvPitties]

38. I just wanted to hear your take. I like to learn from others.

To me, if one is legal and accepted the other one should be as well. I might be missing something in my reasoning, and for that reason I ask. I am not trying to fight with you- I asked you respectfully, as you seem to have a different take.

[Snake Plissken]

39. The 2015 review found that one of the unintended consequences of the policy ...

is increased support for criminalizing prostitutes, currently at 48 per cent of all Swedes; 59 per cent of women and 38 per cent of men.

The Swedish Association for Sexuality Education has suggested that the law has increased both stigma and discrimination, putting prostitutes in a more precarious position. However, the group has opposed legalization and instead has been pressing for changes to address those unintended consequences.

Haggstrom admits that another consequence is that Swedish men now are more likely to become sex tourists. Unlike Canada, Sweden does not have an extraterritorial law that allows it to prosecute Swedish offenders for sex crimes committed abroad.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/outlawing-the-purchase-of-sex-has-been-key-to-swedens-success-in-reducing-prostitution



yeah because increased traffic of sex tourism to 3rd world countries that full support sex slavery is something we should all to be happy about

[Squinch]

46. So your position is that you would prefer that we not make your own daughter safer, not do what

is possible to do in our own territory, because those who actually are so debased that they don't care about the human slavery aspect might go in greater numbers to countries that support sex slavery?

[Snake Plissken]

49. My position is the same as it was from my first post ... the study you cited is extremely flawed

My only concern is to avoid exploitation of many people as possible ... period.

[Squinch]

56. Yes. Your objection to the inclusion of corrupt third world countries like Sweden.

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. Ooh, appeal to emotion

Not a good look.

Also, this is what the authors of the study you yourself posted state:

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005).

However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present article.

TL;DR don't misrepresent a study.

[Squinch]

61. While your lack of emotion over pervasive human trafficking really makes you cool.

And I did not - would not - suggest that legalization does not improve the lives of the legal prostitutes.

Do YOU think that is worth the large increases in human enslavement and trafficking those countries experienced?

[Snake Plissken]

65. What is the point of conversing with someone who doesn't listen to a word I say

but is only instead is labeling me and placing words in my mouth to support their agenda?

I might was well go over to Breitbart.

[Squinch]

68. This post of yours is a reply to my reply to ANOTHER poster. If you thought I was speaking

to you in the post you are replying to, I wasn't.

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. Nobody said I didn't care about human trafficking

You need to fix your habit of reading too deeply between the lines, Slappy.

The key is legalization coupled with aggressive regulations, just like what happened in Rhode Island, which did not have a single sex trafficking case when it decriminalized indoor prostitution.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/36417551_Sex_Trafficking_and_Decriminalized_Prostitution_in_Rhode_Island

[Squinch]

81. This doesn't support your case.

From your source:

Indicators of sex trafficking were found, such as barred windows and sealed exit doors, and the use of surveillance video cameras. Indications of women’s restricted freedom and limited mobility were identified, such as living on the premises and being rotated through a circuit of massage parlors. Content analysis of “johns’” reports of buying sex revealed examples of women’s resistance to engage in sex acts, indicating they may not have been acting freely. Research into the history of prostitution and massage parlor raids found evidence of sex trafficking.

Farther down:

Decriminalized prostitution has factored in the expansion of the commercial sex industry and the absence of any federal or state sex trafficking cases. Decriminalization of prostitution also makes it difficult to use existing statutes for organizing and controlling prostitution. Decriminalization of prostitution also interferes with the ability to identify and assist victims of sex trafficking.

And in the citations:

... Shapiro also found that women in these brothels couldn't resist while engaging in sex acts. She finally concluded that decriminalizing of prostitution leads to an expanded sex market as well as sex trafficking (Shapiro, 2009). The researcher of this study had also many experience regarding the prostitution and sex trafficking while working in Mardin City Police as a deputy chief of the Crime Investigation Unit between 2007 and 2010. ...

[roamer65]

113. Correct.

A large source of human sex trafficking is Russia. An extremely corrupt kleptocracy.

That is why I am in favor of severely restricting any immigration or entry to Russian nationals to the United States.

[IluvPitties]

27. Equating prostitution with sexual slavery is a mistake.

Just like porn performers, strippers and people in the sex industry, there are millions of men and women around the globe who have chosen to do this type of work. Some of them just like it- they could do many other things, but choose to follow that line of work. I have met several individuals who, surprisingly, had that type of gig on the side. They were not addicted, exploited or in incredible financial hardship. They simply wanted some extra cash and felt comfortable doing those things. They should have a right to do so legally and safely.

Others do it because they are in dire financial need and they find no other way out. It is sad, but still a choice, as people do very unsavory things that happen to be legal for money. That has to be addressed through economic empowerment rather than criminalization or victimization of the individuals in this situation.

Then you have human trafficking, of any kind. That's slavery. Period. That needs to be fought and stopped quickly and forcefully. Now, we are horrified by the sexual form of human trafficking as it attacks and victimizes our most intimate space- our bodies. Now, look carefully and you will see the same horrifying conditions in the restaurant industry, in manufacturing, in hospitality, etc. Human trafficking needs to be treated as slavery, period. Whatever people are subjected to unwillingly is equally bad.

So, lumping consented sex work of any kind with human trafficking insults the people who have made a choice with their bodies and trivializes the actual issue we are trying to fight.

[Squinch]

30. Oh, FFS.

[IluvPitties]

32. We can agree we are both against human trafficking, aren't we?

Different viewpoints on other things, but we can focus on our common ground.

[watoos]

29. How about we all agree on one thing?

Let's reopen the Jeffrey Epstein case.. Want to help end sex trafficking, put Epstein in a real prison and expose the powerful people he catered to. There is a very good case that is being made to nullify the deal that was made by Acosta to cover up the sex trafficking that was going on. These young girls, now women, have been fighting these powerful men for 11 years. 11 years their suit has been tied up in the courts. A judge has ruled that they were unfairly treated and that the deal that was made can be voided which means that Epstein can be actually tried in a court of law.

Do we all agree? A lot of powerful people don't want to see Epstein put on trial. Who do you think will win out?

We can argue till the cows come home about the topic of prostitution and sex trafficking but to me this Epstein case is a no brainer. If Epstein walks and the powerful people he catered to remain in the shadows there is no hope for solving this problem. Letting Epstein walk sends a message that when you sex traffic make sure your clients are powerful people who will protect you.

Yesterday Donald Trump said that he still has faith in Labor Secretary Acosta, he is doing a fine job.

[IluvPitties]

31. Exactly. Lots of powerful guys used and abused minors.

That needs to be investigated and let the chips fall...

[imanamerican63]

36. If it became legal, isn't it still exploitation of women or even young women?

Not to that fact of diseases spreading rapidly? To me, legalizing this is not the answer. Most of this men are married away and they are not faithful to their wives if they have to paid sex from another woman.

[crazytown]

43. I agree but think prostitution should be legal

From the OP Study

“ there is no “smoking gun” proving that ... the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows.”

Let me put my cards on the table. I am accept the argument that prostitution is ‘disgrading to women’ and that a proportion of prostitutes suffer irreparable psychological damage from sex work.

Patriarchy established and enforces male ownership of women’s bodies. In typical prostitution a man pays to own a women’s body for sex.

But I am not convinced that prohibition is the answer. The OP study also concludes that legalisation improves the health, safety and working conditions of prostitutes. If traffickers are attracted to the market, the obvious answer seems to me to devote more resources to surveillance and law enforcement.

In Australia during the legalisation the feminist case was sabotaged by radicals who argued PIV sex was degrading to women, period. What followed was a re-enactment of the ‘80s sex wars.

What I want to say is that sincere people with progressive views can disagree on this subject. It is not black or white. Opponents can share similar values but disagree on the real world consequences. In New South Wales, Australia, the consensus is legalisation has done more good than harm. Unlike Germany for example, prostitution has been legal for 23 years, and the substantial improvement in working conditions for prostitutes is not conteste

[Ferrets are Cool]

37. Yes, because it being illegal has been SOOOOOOOOO successful in making it go away.

[Squinch]

42. And the study showed that making it illegal is even LESS successful. Do you really want to

make it go away? Here's how you do it: You make purchasing sex illegal, but not selling it.

Just like if you REALLY want to stop the hiring of undocumented workers. You make the hiring illegal and subject to heavy fines, but you do not prosecute the workers.

These things, though, will never happen. Because our culture does not REALLY care that much about trafficked women and children as long as cheap sex stays available. Just as it does not REALLY care about illegal immigration.

[Ferrets are Cool]

44. I have been saying this same thing about the "employers" of

undocumented workers for 15 or more years. However, if the sex industry were to be given a set of laws and regulations to abide by, I do believe things would get better. And YES, after that happens, throw the book at anyone breaking those rules and regulations. I am very uncomfortable telling ANYONE what they can and cant do with their own bodies.

[Squinch]

47. But this study says that things do not get better, especially in wealthier countries.

I don't like telling anyone what to do with their own bodies either. But liberty ends at the point of another's nose.

There are real victims in this. This is real slavery. It goes on right under our noses. It involves our own daughters. It is growing everywhere.

If one person's liberty to participate in something "for fun" is enslaving other people, I'm OK with doing something about it.

[crazytown]

50. Not true.

Quote?

[Squinch]

57. SMH.

[crazytown]

73. OK. Here's my quote

“Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized.”

Where’s yours?

[crazytown]

90. Crickets

[Ferrets are Cool]

99. You have completely misconstrued my statement.

You twist my words to make it sound like I am all for "enslaving other people". I wont even dignify that with a rebuttal. What "I" said is I don't want the U.S. to determine what one does with their body. I take the same stance on abortion. It is NOT my right to tell a pregnant woman whether she can or cannot have an abortion. It is not MY right to tell a person that they can take money for sex. And making it illegal certainly hasn't done anything to stop it, has it?

[Squinch]

100. I didn't. And in no way did I mean to suggest that YOU want to enslave other people. I apologize

if it sounded like that.

I was simply saying that I agree with you. I don't like the idea of telling people what to do with their bodies either, but this goes way beyond that. There are two sides to this transaction. One is an enslaved person and the other is a person out for a fun night. I think it IS our responsibility as a community, country, state or whatever, to intervene and act when slavery is involved.

And you are right. The illegality of prostitution in the US hasn't stopped it. But this study, and the other one referenced elsewhere in this thread that studies legalization of "inside prostitution" in Rhode Island, both show that legalization actually makes it much worse.

Rather than trading the problems of illegal prostitution for the much worse problems of legal prostitution, why don't we take steps that might actually improve the situation. Like making buying illegal and subject to heavy fines, but leaving the sex workers alone. Or providing other options for desperate and vulnerable and addicted people.

[MicaelS]

45. Prohibition was, is, and will always be a failure, IF...

There is a high enough demand.

Alcohol was, and drug prohibition is, a failure.

Both caused ordinary people to become criminals, while causing the creation of super criminals, gangs and cartels.

The only logical solution is legalization, regulation and taxation.

A complete prohibition on all types of guns in the US will fail the same way.

The very same thing will happen with prostitution.

However, logic was, and is, ignored because the prohibitionists of all these are not driven by logic, but emotion.

The probitionists excuses range from saving people's lives and souls, reducing or elimination of what is viewed as deviancy, saving society, and of course the biggest emotional cry. Which is of course, "Let's do it for the children".

Go read Daniel O'Krent's book Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition".

[Squinch]

48. The very same thing DOES NOT happen where prostitution has already been legalized.

DId you read the OP?

[MrGrieves]

66. Is the OP biblical?

Is that how it works with information? You read one piece and thats the final word? Others have pointed out where they think the OP is flawed. Is there no room for rebuttal? just point to a study and thats that?

[Squinch]

67. LOL! And is this what you consider a rebuttal?

[MrGrieves]

80. No, I didn't address the OP

No, I didn’t address the OP. I might even agree to it. But I don’t accept that pointing to “a study” is the end all be all of discussion. John Oliver did a great piece on “studies”.

And “LOL” isn’t a rebuttal to what I said either.

[Squinch]

82. So you just go with your gut then. Enjoy!

[MrGrieves]

104. That is exactly the opposite of what I said

That is exactly the opposite of what I said but please enjoy your projection. I said one study doesn’t end the conversation. You seem to want to run with what your gut tells you about that article. So... Yeah.

[LongtimeAZDem]

51. Agreed.

There are two guaranteed outcomes of prohibition of a desired good or service:

a) Increased cost in procuring the good or service, and
b) Increased violence in procuring the good or service.

The crackdown on illegal immigration is a prime example of this. The drug cartels and organized human traffickers were never involved when it was a managed, low-profit endeavor.

[Squinch]

64. Yet the study shows that this is NOT what happened with legalized prostitution. Especially in

wealthier countries.

[LongtimeAZDem]

84. No, not really, and it specifically cautions against drawing the conclusions you are claiming

On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows. We have corroborated this quantitative evidence with three brief case studies of Sweden, Denmark and Germany. Consistent with the results from our quantitative analysis, the legalization of prostitution has led to substantial scale effects in these cases. Both the cross-country comparisons among Sweden, Denmark and Germany, with their different prostitution regimes, as well as the temporal comparison within Germany before and after the further legalization of prostitution, suggest that any compositional changes in the share of trafficked individuals among all prostitutes have been small and the substitution effect has therefore been dominated by the scale effect. Naturally, this qualitative evidence is also somewhat tentative as there is no “smoking gun” proving that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect and that the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows.

They also repeatedly caution that the numbers are potentially misleading:

Part of the demand in Denmark might however arise due to the change in Swedish prostitution laws and vice versa. As pointed out by Collins and Judge (2010), clients can be expected to react to interjurisdictional differences in regulations. Swedish clients might cross the border and use prostitution services in Denmark, while prostitution and trafficking in Sweden might be higher if prostitution were illegal in Denmark as well.

[This is the same problem that we see when with those that argue against gun laws by citing restrictive areas such as D.C. or Chicago, while ignoring the easy availability of firearms in nearby jurisdictions]

They also note that countries with legalization often have more open societies in general, which makes correlating the trafficking levels to legalization problematic.

So, yes, the study does show an overall average increase in trafficking in countries with legalization, but the authors repeatedly caution against a simplistic interpretation. Most telling, they end their conclusion with a caveat on the complexities of issue, and the limitations of the study:

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005). However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present article.

[Squinch]

88. "... the substitution effect has been dominated by the scale effect." That means that

the increased scale of the industry that came with legalization DID cause significant increases in trafficking.

And everyone is quoting that paragraph about the improvement in the lives of legal prostitutes. And I acknowledge that it is a huge benefit.

But I will ask you what I have asked everyone else: do YOU feel that this improvement is worth a large increase in enslavement and human trafficking of women and children?

A way to get the same benefit to the sex workers while not increasing human trafficking would be to make buying sex illegal and subject to high fines, while decriminalizing the selling of sex.

[LongtimeAZDem]

91. I want to see all enslavement and trafficking of all humans eradicated. In no way did I state,

or imply otherwise.

I simply pointed out that you are using a study to make a claim that the authors of that study caution against making, and I hate it when people draw simplistic conclusions from complex analysis.

One of the things that struck me the most about the paper is how, without such caveats, it could be used to support numerous Republican talking points. I mean, if easier immigration increases human trafficking (which the study clearly shows), then don't we need a wall at our border?

As to your last point:

"A way to get the same benefit to the sex workers while not increasing human trafficking would be to make buying sex illegal and subject to high fines, while decriminalizing the selling of sex. "

This is totally unsupported, and is counter to everything we know about prohibition, as I and the poster before me stated. All your "solution" will do is drive it underground, make it more expensive and more violent, and increase the desperation of those victimized by it.

[Squinch]

93. Yet it had a very good effect when it was instituted in Sweden.

[LongtimeAZDem]

95. Again, the authors specifically noted that might not be the case

as clients might just be going across the border; which, as I noted, is why Baltimore can't be used as a "gun control doesn't work" when you can go to Virginia and buy one.

[Squinch]

98. Let me provide, then, an example closer to home.

The poster who provided this thought it supported legalization, but it does the opposite. It lists the chilling results of the decriminalization of inside prostitution in Rhode Island. It's a little window into hell.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/36417551_Sex_Trafficking_and_Decriminalized_Prostitution_in_Rhode_Island

Results of the research identified thirty-three Asian massage parlor brothels. Indicators of sex trafficking were found, such as barred windows and sealed exit doors, and the use of surveillance video cameras. Indications of women’s restricted freedom and limited mobility were identified, such as living on the premises and being rotated through a circuit of massage parlors. Content analysis of “johns’” reports of buying sex revealed examples of women’s resistance to engage in sex acts, indicating they may not have been acting freely.

Further, it says that decriminalization made it harder to identify enslaved sex workers, and harder to help them, and harder to prosecute the traffickers. Indeed, since the legislation, there has been no prosecution of sex trafficking, even though, in the citations, it concludes that decriminalization increased both the sex trade and human trafficking in Rhode Island.

[Ferrets are Cool]

107. Great post. nt

[IronLionZion]

53. What's the solution?

What decreases human trafficking? Because Trump's people have some terrible ideas about that.

[Squinch]

63. Heavily fine the buyers and leave the sex workers alone.

[ismnotwasm]

54. Should be decriminalized though

We punish the wrong people with arrests.

[Squinch]

59. Heavily fine the buyers - really heavily - and leave sex workers alone.

It would go away tomorrow.

[ismnotwasm]

60. Yup

[getagrip_already]

55. So what happens when robots replace people as sex workers?

We aren't far from that now. In our lifetimes, it will be possible to get these services from machines taking the form of people. Lets ignore for now the prospect that the robots could resemble children or fantasy creatures. Lets keep it to plain old adult people.

Guess what? It will still be illegal.

There is at least one state where it is illegal to sell sex toys (vibrators and the like). There are laws restricting what sex therapists (licensed doctors) can do in most states.

So while there are many legitimate arguments linking human trafficking to prostitution, there is plenty of opposition to the act of sex outside of heterosexual marriage itself. I'm convinced a lot of the opponents don't really care about human trafficking at all, and are just using it as a foil to attack sex in any form outside of marriage.

Once they get started, they won't stop at prostitution. They will move on to consensual sex of all kinds outside of traditional marriage.

Sorry for the sidestep, you may proceed.

[Squinch]

62. I disagree that it will be illegal in most places. I'd love to see it. Leave the enslaved and

addicted and desperate women and kids, and I'll contribute to anyone's Gofundme account so they can buy their sex robot.

[getagrip_already]

70. Issac Asimov would ask....

And when they become sentience?

Free the Robots!!!

lol.

While I'm with you on this, I still suspect it won't be legal.

[Squinch]

72. Soylent Green is PEOPLE!

[getagrip_already]

75. I can hear infowars running this any day now - that green new deal.....

is People!!!!!! They want to dissolve real white americans and use us as fuel! That's right folks, they want to reduce our carbon footprint by turning god fearing republicans into fuel for the Prius's and LED light bulbs!

AOC is already doing this on a small scale out of her LIC apartment!

RESIST!!!!!!!!

[Squinch]

78. LED light bulbs are SATAN!

[Rizen]

74. You excluded the important footnote:

"While trafficking inflows may be lower where prostitution is criminalized, there may be severe repercussions for those working in the industry. For example, criminalizing prostitution penalizes sex workers rather than the people who earn most of the profits (pimps and traffickers).

“The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking,” the researchers state. “However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes — at least those legally employed — if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky ‘freedom of choice’ issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”"

Not to mention the benefits of taxing the industry, similar to legalizing marijuana.

The answer is to combat human trafficking, not to make prostitution illegal.

[Squinch]

77. Ah! Higher levels of human trafficking should be tolerated because the legal prostitutes pay taxes!

I know you don't mean to be saying that.

I don't deny that working conditions would improve for the legalized prostitutes. But do YOU think that is worth the large increases in human enslavement and trafficking that these countries experienced?

My solution is to heavily fine the buyers but not the sellers of sex.

And I don't find the "freedom of choice" issue to be tricky when I consider that one side of the equation is enslaved and the other side is looking for a fun night out.

[Rizen]

83. The problem is you're treating this as a black and white issue

Legalizing prostitution would mean the workers wouldn't be afraid to go to the police for help. It creates revenue. It promotes healthier conditions and discourages the transfer of disease.

The answer is to put more resources into fighting human trafficking, not to make prostitution illegal. It also says democracies have higher rates of human trafficking; should we make democracy illegal?

[Squinch]

85. No, I'm not. I understand that there are downsides of criminalization. But the enslavement

of women and children is a bigger downside.

The answer is to provide job opportunities, living opportunities, rehab opportunities and to vulnerable women and children.

I think you are perfectly well aware that your argument about making democracy illegal is ridiculous.

[Rizen]

96. You're perpetuating a system where we throw prostitutes into overcrowded prisons

It's just like throwing marijuana smokers into jail. If you don't have an industry you can regulate then you end up arresting the victims. We should focus on the real criminals like the people doing human trafficking rather than the prostitutes.

The reason I brought up the democracy point was to show how you're making a false connection. Prostitution and human trafficking are two separate issues. Yes we need to stop human trafficking but that does not mean continuing the issues associated with prostitution. If we had more resources going into stopping human trafficking rather than arresting prostitutes maybe trafficking wouldn't be so prominent.

[Squinch]

97. No I'm not. I understand that there are problems with our treatment of prostitutes.

I support decriminalizing SELLING sex, though I think BUYING sex should be criminalized and subject to heavy fines.

What we KNOW is that legalization increases trafficking. Saying we should do it anyway to improve the lives of the legal prostitutes is just a way of substituting a much worse problem for an existing problem.

How about if we DON'T legalize the buying of sex, and instead we help the women, children and yes, men, INSTEAD of arresting them.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

79. K & R

[Squinch]

89. What part of these excerpts from your own source to support your contention that RI's

decriminalization of inside sex was really great do you not understand?:

From your source:

Indicators of sex trafficking were found, such as barred windows and sealed exit doors, and the use of surveillance video cameras. Indications of women’s restricted freedom and limited mobility were identified, such as living on the premises and being rotated through a circuit of massage parlors. Content analysis of “johns’” reports of buying sex revealed examples of women’s resistance to engage in sex acts, indicating they may not have been acting freely. Research into the history of prostitution and massage parlor raids found evidence of sex trafficking.

Farther down:

Decriminalized prostitution has factored in the expansion of the commercial sex industry and the absence of any federal or state sex trafficking cases. Decriminalization of prostitution also makes it difficult to use existing statutes for organizing and controlling prostitution. Decriminalization of prostitution also interferes with the ability to identify and assist victims of sex trafficking.

And in the citations:

... Shapiro also found that women in these brothels couldn't resist while engaging in sex acts. She finally concluded that decriminalizing of prostitution leads to an expanded sex market as well as sex trafficking (Shapiro, 2009). The researcher of this study had also many experience regarding the prostitution and sex trafficking while working in Mardin City Police as a deputy chief of the Crime Investigation Unit between 2007 and 2010. ...

[wellst0nev0ter]

92. Cool

Zero prosecutions still equals zero.

[Squinch]

94. Jesus. YOUR OWN article shows proof of increased human trafficking. It says that horrible

things are happening like:

“johns’” reports of buying sex revealed examples of women’s resistance to engage in sex acts,

and

indicators of sex trafficking were found, such as barred windows and sealed exit doors, and the use of surveillance video cameras. Indications of women’s restricted freedom and limited mobility were identified, such as living on the premises and being rotated through a circuit of massage parlors.

and

Decriminalization of prostitution also interferes with the ability to identify and assist victims of sex trafficking.

and

Shapiro also found that women in these brothels couldn't resist while engaging in sex acts. She finally concluded that decriminalizing of prostitution leads to an expanded sex market as well as sex trafficking

And you conclude that the fact that Rhode Island hasn't prosecuted sex trafficking since they legalized inside prostitution is a good thing.

That is really simply disgusting.

[wellst0nev0ter]

101. State legalization

does not override federal human trafficking laws.

There were zero convictions during the period that Rhode Island decriminalized prostitution. Even if there was exploitation, it appears to be vanishingly rare during that time, and led to a significant drop in STDs.

[Downtown Hound]

102. I wonder if this article is taking into account that many of the women who work as illegal

prostitutes are, in fact, already slaves. Slaves to their pimps, and in many other ways, slaves to the legal system that ensnares them in a world of jail, financial hardships through fines and community service, and rendering them incapable of ever leaving the lifestyle if they wanted because now they have drug problems and criminal records.

I despise human trafficking, and as far as I'm concerned, those who engage in it belong in deep, dark, dank prison cells for the rest of their lives. But I also don't think it's fair to arrest women for selling something that intrinsically belongs to them.

[Huin]

118. Hitting the nail on the head is better than hitting the head on a nail.

I liked your reply because of the embedded truth in it. I spend some years growing up in a country with legalized prostitution. I heard that to get a license as a prostitute one had to have a regular physical exam. Apparently a governmental effort to fight venereal diseases.

After completing college and starting my first job in the Chicago area, my spouse and I lived in a small apartment. We both worked 8 hours a day. In another apartment on the same floor lived a young lady, always elegantly dressed. Once in a while we saw elegant cars pulling up to our door and she would get in. Our upstairs neighbors, an elderly couple, who we had befriended told us she was a 'call girl'.

If that was so, then who was more "enslaved", we, working eight hours a day or the young lady going to a fancy party and possibly making more money than my spouse and I together.

[roamer65]

114. Russia is the one of largest sources of human sex trafficking.

It’s time lower then hammer on them and sanction the living shit outta Russia.

No immigration or entry to the US by Russian nationals unless approved for specific, documented reasons.

Freeze all assets of Russian companies and oligarchs.