Anti-prostitution laws: legislating control over our bodies?

[Progressive Law]

Do you think progressives would be more receptive to prostitution legalization if the issue is framed as respecting an adult's decision to control his/her own body? Forced labor/slavery would still be criminalized just like it currently is in every other line of work.

[RandySF]

1. I think we should be clear what we're talking about

and clarify what is consensual, transactional sex and trafficking. There are models around the world that actually work.

[mcar]

6. This!

My read of the Kraft situation is that trafficking is involved. That's totally different from people who go into prostitution of their own free will.

[Progressive Law]

19. Seems like the media doesn't differentiate between consensual prostitution and sex trafficking.

I think many people simply consider it necessarily the same thing.

[deist99]

36. Agree

Law enforcement and anti-sex work advocates do the same thing. It’s helps them raise funds. There are actually groups that call themselves prostitution abolitionist’s and believe 99.9% of woman in prostitution are there against their will and the other .1 are in denial. Here’s a link that talks about the abolitionist, it’s old but good.
https://fpif.org/sex_trafficking_the_abolitionist_fallacy/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. It's like men telling women what they can & can't wear re hijab, skirt length, heels, cleavage, etc.

[Mossfern]

4. That's not a very good comparison at all

My husband betrayed our wedding vows by visiting prostitutes. I found condoms in our closet. My heart and soul were ripped from me. When some men visit prostitutes, very often the effect is much more broad range than what happens between two consenting adults.

Comparing it with wearing hijab just doesn't work.
Sorry, this was merely a trigger, nothing against you personally.
I have no issue with prostitutes.

[RainCaster]

3. I'm not sure if COYOTE is a thing anymore...

but they argued that point years ago.

[wellst0nev0ter]

7. We can point out that decriminalizing prostitution

coincided with less STDs and rapes in Rhode Island:


http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/decriminalizing-prostitution-linked-to-fewer-stds-and-rapes

[Big Blue Marble]

5. This history of prostitution is far more about the exploitation of desperate women

who had no options, that it is about sexual liberation. It puts women at risk for violence
from anonymous men not to mention their pimps.

It is primarily a vestige of male entitlement and access to women's bodies. The benefits accrue
much more to men than the women.

Society benefits far more from providing real educational and economic opportunities for women than
than from legalizing prostitution.

[Johnny2X2X]

8. Nailed it

Sure there are women who choose to make a living through prostitution, but the are the exception to the rule. An extremely high % are victims forced into something.

I believe that there should be zero punishment for prostitutes, only help or treatment. The Johns and the Pimps should be punished by the criminal justice system.

[Big Blue Marble]

12. I totally agree.

The women need as much support and help as we help them rebuild our lives.

[Progressive Law]

25. If the John is a sex addict, shouldn't he/she need help/treatment too?

[LanternWaste]

41. Who specifically is arguing addicts shouldn't receive treatment? No one.

Then why pretend a premise when it doesn't exist? Seems an absurd line of reasoning, but I'm sure you'll explain it.

(Washington Wizards still your go-to?)

[Progressive Law]

43. Johnny2X2X did. That poster said providers should be immune, but Johns should be prosecuted.

Which is why I posted the question about Johns who have an addiction problem.

[Johnny2X2X]

46. This is human trafficking

If someone is a sex addict in treatment maybe considerations can be given. But we’re talking about activity that supports slavery, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for someone who supports that with their dollars.

[deist99]

37. I think

I think you might be wrong on that. Here is a link to an article about an audit done on some legal brothels in Nevada. It found 34% of the workers showed indicators of having been trafficked. So 66% did not have indicators of being trafficked and can presumed to be there of their own free will.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/sex-crimes/audit-finds-signs-of-human-trafficking-at-brothels-in-nevada-county/amp/

This is close to my estimate of trafficked or forced women in prostitution. From my study of the topic I would guesstimate 20-30% are forced while 70-80% are there if their own free will. Though I do believe it is next to impossible for anyone to get accurate numbers while prostitution is illegal.

[LittleWoman]

9. Amen!

You are exactly right.

[demmiblue]

10. +1

[RandySF]

11. A couple of counterpoints.

First of all, not all prostitutes are women, though most are. Secondly, current laws make it next to impossible to go to police or work is a safe, clean setting that allow them to screen their customers before they meet. And you're right that society should give people option other than sex work just as they should have more options than fast food. But until then, people have to make the rent.

[EffieBlack]

14. You're right that all prostitutes aren't women, but virtually all johns are men

[RandySF]

15. True

[roamer65]

30. +1

[EffieBlack]

13. Exactly!

Legalizing prostitution is really about letting men of the hook for paying for prostitution, not any concern about economic empowerment for women.

And it will not seems to ever come up in the wake of prominent men being arrested for solicitation. Otherwise, it's hardly ever an issue.

[Judi Lynn]

22. A few seem aware that the women are desperate for money, can't get it otherwise.

They almost represent themselves as knights on white horses, or great humanitarians, in "patronizing" women who are living in such obviously dire circumstances.

It never will occur to them they are incomplete themselves as men, and they need to grow up to become real men, as in growing up mentally, psychologically, spiritually, not physically.

[RandySF]

31. Some of us who think out of the box

wonder what is prima facie wrong about paying for sex?

[smirkymonkey]

20. +1000

[Judi Lynn]

21. You said it so clearly. It should be apparent to EVERYONE, but as you see, some deny it,

and that is a deep-seated, ugly disease. It drags the entire world down.

I'm nothing but grateful you took the moment to express your thoughts. Truthfulness is unpopular, and just can't be seen or heard the way it should be.

One day it will, and then a civilized world will be possible.

Thank you.

(I wish I could organize thoughts as well as you. There wasn't a wasted word, nor a needed one missing.)

[Lordquinton]

32. And you want to keep it that way

The reason it's dangerous is because it's so stigmatized, they can't go to the police, and have zero protections.

Society will benefit greatly from both, until then get off your high horse, you're arguing for the continued victimization of women while passing it off as a moral high ground.

[Big Blue Marble]

33. From the tone of your post,

you are the one who is riding high. It is and will be dangerous, regardless of legality because mostly women are forced in to prostitution by men. (many are underaged and/or shipped in from other countries) or they consider it the 'employment" of last resort. Neither would stop if it were legalized.

Prostitution says far more about the men who use it than it does about the women who are in the trade.
The vast majority of women do not seek a "career" in the sex trades. Let's give women equitable pay and
advancement opportunities to build lasting careers where their health and safety are not imperiled.

And then we can talk about legalization when we see how many women still volunteer for the job.

[EffieBlack]

34. Thank you!

This is about exploitation by men. And the drive to decriminalize it is about removing the inconvenience and stigma from the men.

Notice how legalizing prostitution never comes up when we talk about trafficking unless prominent men get arrested in the process?

[Big Blue Marble]

35. Great points!

So true, that is exactly why we are having this conversation.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

16. I heard George Carlin say this about Prostitution........

when I saw him in 1989...

"Selling is LEGAL. Fucking is LEGAL. Why is selling fucking ILLEGAL?"

I miss George Carlin so much. He would be having a hey day with his monologues.

[Ferrets are Cool]

17. He would have endless material nowadays...

and with his brilliant mind, it would be breathtaking.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

18. Yeppers.....

[EffieBlack]

23. That's funny

But it's not true. Prostitutes aren't really "selling" anything. More often than not, they are being sold by someone else. They're not the seller - they're the product, the value of which is negotiated by other people, usually men, who dictate the terms of the transaction with little or no regard to the well-being - economic, emotional, physical or otherwise - of the women they're buying and selling.

[Progressive Law]

24. The same can be said for many performers in the adult entertainment industry.

But, who here wants to criminalize pornography?

[IluvPitties]

40. It's interesting how many here refuse to address porn

which is the maximum commercialization of sex possible.

[Progressive Law]

42. I find that quite interesting too.

[deist99]

45. Hope

I hope no one on a progressive site would argue for outlawing pornography. That position is for religious nuts in the other party.

[treestar]

27. he is wrong as usual

if it weren't so one sided and didn't exploit the women - he's not seeing the women at all with that comment. That comment is pretty much as if it were a real relationship of some kind between the parties.

He did not have the great insight people credit him with.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. "...Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. … In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

[janterry]

28. Sure, but if it wins, we'll also see an increase in sex trafficking

Just like every other country that allows female bodies to be legally monetized for sex.

[Midnightwalk]

29. Here's a paper that seems in topic

I’m for regulating payday loans even though people may need money quickly and they are knowingly signing themselves up to be exploited.

People also bring up drug use. Again that’s mostly self exploitation.

Can prostitution be regulated in a way that avoids exploitation? I googled “prostitution vegas exploitation” and found a paper that was interesting to me. It is only 24 pages. I still don’t think i understand enough, but it is pretty clear that unregulated prostitution is too prone to exploitation and i don’t think clients are innocent “users”.

[link:http://brents.faculty.unlv.edu//research/Stereotypes%20Brothels%20ASA06.pdf|]

In this paper we assess the degree of exploitation experienced by legal prostitutes working in America’s only regulated system of prostitution, the Nevada brothel industry. Based on in-depth, open-ended qualitative interviews and ethnographic research within the Nevada brothel industry, this paper considers three dimensions of exploitation as related to sex work: 1) the presence of danger and violence; 2) work conditions and control; and 3) sexual freedom. We find that legalized prostitution creates an environment in which working women report both patterns of exploitation and empowerment. The experiences of legal prostitutes vary depending on the size and location of the brothel, and the internal brothel culture in the workplace. Additionally, we find that the patterns of exploitation that emerge are primarily connected to two factors: work conditions and social stigma. Further analysis of specific contexts in which prostitution occurs is central to efforts to analyze and understand the social institution of prostitution and it’s effects on women, and additional research is merited on the effects of particular labor practices and forms of social stigma on prostitutes.

[LanternWaste]

38. As many conservatives see women's bodies as private property...

far too many people pretending to be progressives and Democrats see women's bodies as public property. No doubt, the rationalizations are bemusing if they weren't so damned sad to read. On DU.

"Did you watch the entire video? If not, I suggest you do so..."

[Progressive Law]

44. Adults who want to use their body as property should have their right to choose respected.

[deist99]

39. Question

Yes I believe it would. It really boils down to a simple question. Do you believe an adult should be able to have sex for any reason they freely choose?
I believe the answer to that question is yes. Whether the person is choosing to have sex with another person because they love them, they’re horny, it’s their spouse and they’re doing it just to make them happy, or they are going to receive money or some other renumeration.

No one should be forced through violence or the threat of violence to do anything against their will.