Social libertarianism: Why or why not?

[IluvPitties]

I do not consider myself a social libertarian, but I find agreeing with them a lot in many issues. So, I wonder: How many of you are ideologically close to them? If so, why? If not, why not? Just want to throw this out there to see how other DUers think- not to engage in a contentious ideological battle or in personal confrontations.

[WhiteTara]

1. My personal opinion of

anything libertarian is people who want to be able to smoke pot but are really republicons in a more evil way.

[TheBlackAdder]

31. For the most part, Libertarians are self-affecting people, wanting for themselves over others.

.


Libertarians see benefits that they can plug into as deserved. And boy do they plug into them.

If they cannot plug into a benefit, they view that as a tax that they are somehow paying for.


===


The biggest takers of the government largess appear to be Libertarians.

.

[Tiggeroshii]

34. there's a distinction

I think Social libertarianism is distinct from libertarian is that it is a political philosophy rooted in anti fascism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[MountCleaners]

46. Yes. I am a social libertarian

But I am an economic leftist, too. And yes, a thorough and committed anti-fascist. If it lends aid and comfort to the far right, I am opposed to it. I won't back down until the last fascist has disappeared from the earth.

[Tiggeroshii]

55. me too

i just established exactly what that means after spewing some.misinformation below...

[Puzzledtraveller]

2. I characterize myself as such

ultimately I am a libertarian, not in the political sense, but in the philosophical sense, the opposite being authoritarian. I actually detest authoritative systems, that includes the state, and I work for one. I remind others, the state has no feelings, it is cold, it' just a collection of people, who are as flawed as anyone or anything.
I see caseworkers who have no empathy, do little if nothing to help the families and individuals that come to our agency for help outside of what they are required, there are administrative policies that make things hard on clients and workers, and this in an agency that is predominantly staffed by Democrats, and liberals, you see, they cede their human qualities to order and rigidity, why, because they are just people, most just follow orders, unwilling, or unable to exercise the discretion they have, far fewer are the workers like myself who see it as a duty to actually care about the people we serve and to make it as easy to assist them, to be human to them, and empathize with them. Believe me, it gets me in trouble some times, and if I wasn't with the agency for almost 10 years I could see a tough supervisor looking for a way to sideline me permanently.

[pnwmom]

8. Libertarians aren't progressives. They don't believe in a progressive tax system

and they want as little government and as few regulations as possible.

[Tiggeroshii]

35. The person you are responding to distinguished against that already

Libertarianism as a political philosophy is very different from libertarian party policies. Social Libertarian, as the OP mentions, is also distinct. If you ever found yourself appreciating Hwoard Zinn or Noam Chomsky, it is likely that you too are keen on many aspects of that philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[pnwmom]

41. Social libertarians are still not progressives. They don't believe in progressive government or

progressive taxes.

[Tiggeroshii]

43. Not sure it's as easy to group those in.

For instance, The noteworty Social Libertarian, Noam Chomsky, has argued very passionately in favor of taxes.

[pnwmom]

45. He isn't a Social Libertarian. He calls himself a libertarian socialist, which is not the same thing

He's a socialist who leans toward anarchism; not a libertarian with liberal social views.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Noam_Chomsky

Noam Chomsky describes himself as a libertarian socialist, a sympathizer of anarcho-syndicalism, and is considered to be a key intellectual figure within the left-wing of politics of the United States.

[Tiggeroshii]

48. according to wikipedia they are the same things (socialist liberarian?)

i would be Interested In more information on the distinction between libertarian socialism and social libertarianism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

[pnwmom]

49. "Social" and "Socialist" aren't the same thing. nt

[Tiggeroshii]

53. okay i thought they were the same..

this guy clears it up for me: https://www.quora.com/What-makes-Social-Libertarianism-different-than-Libertarian-Socialism

[MountCleaners]

47. i thought that "social libertarian" meant that one was libertarian on SOCIAL issues

Issues like marriage equality, decriminalization of drugs, criminal justice reform, First Amendment issues, Fourth Amendment issues, etc.

[pnwmom]

50. Right. n/t

[Tiggeroshii]

54. i dont think so

it is still a political philosophy and not a lignes with the party. libertarians are defined by the libertarian party on most thIngs but the philosophy is more this:"Social libertarianism is simply having a “live and let live” attitude on social issues as long as no one’s rights and civil liberties are being infringed upon. Social libertarianism is compatible with both libertarian socialism and libertarian capitalism as economic doctrines."

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-Social-Libertarianism-different-than-Libertarian-Socialism

[LuvLoogie]

28. Much of what you describe is a result of caseload and burn-out.

Added resources, training and rotation of assignments can go a long way to alleviate that. "Caring" is subjective. Someone who "cares" more than another might not be as effective in meeting the needs of the client or complying with the law. There is a balance between letting your humanity motivate you and making sure you are complying with the law.

If the "i"s aren't dotted and the "t"s not crossed you might put yourself and or the client at risk. Sometimes you just have to motor through in order to get the needed services to the client. The state exists because a large society needs a collective effort, and a liberal society requires much regulation. That may seem a contradiction, but chaos is unsustainable. We can't judge progress by how we feel about it alone.

Empirical data matters.

[GulfCoast66]

3. A libertarian thread on DU?

Libertarians are, if possible, even worse than republicans.

First, I’ve never met a poor one.

Their whole philosophy is I’ve got mine, fuck everyone else. As they light up their joint.

It is a garbage, dead end ethos that ends up as Semolia.

[riverine]

4. There is no way libertarians are worse than conservatives

First, they tend to be secular and for gay rights/marriage.

Second, libertarians follow the non aggression principle. They hated the Iraq War and all the intervention in other countries.

The non-aggression principle (or NAP; also called the non-aggression axiom, the anti-coercion, zero aggression principle or non-initiation of force) is an ethical stance asserting that aggression is inherently wrong. In this context, "aggression" is defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with an individual or their property.[1] In contrast to pacifism, it does not forbid forceful defense.

The NAP is considered by some to be a defining principle of libertarianism, especially natural-rights libertarianism. It is also a prominent idea in anarcho-capitalism, classical liberalism, and minarchism

Wikipedia

edit - Oh and a big one Libertarians are against the stupid War on Drugs

[GulfCoast66]

5. Many Liberals are against war and in favor of drugs. So that's even.

But libertarians are against all government intervention. Against Social Security, Medicare, and almost every other thing our government does for us. Privatize everything. Even most republicans don’t openly disparage things like Social Security and Medicare. Although as the party become libertarian that is starting to change.

But my main point is that anyone wanting to expouse a libertarian POV needs to find a different site to post on.

This is Democratic Underground. We Universally agree on a strong government taking dramatic actions to improve the lives of the American people. I can think of no site on the web where libertarian values will be more despised than here.

Defending any part of libertarianism is asking for rejection here.

[riverine]

6. So then

Defending any part of libertarianism is asking for rejection here.

If I defend legalization of recreational drugs and the free movement of immigrants I am asking for rejection here?

That doesn't seem right.

[GulfCoast66]

9. My grandmother let her chickens in the pasture after the cows were there.

They ate the undigested corn out of the shit.

But they were still eating shit.

Defending the libertarians positions when their focus is elimination of government is eating shit.

I favor legalizing pot and decriminalized drugs across the board. And do not want any war outside of defending our European and Asian allies from naked aggression. Which is against libertarians positions. They want no defense treaties.

But I would jettison the drug thingy before I favored anything else that libertarians want.

If favoring legal drugs pushes someone into the libertarian camp they have no place on DU. We are democrats. We believe in a strong government

[CrossingTheRubicon]

13. Abdicating responsible US leadership in the world is a recipe for greater tyranny and bloodshed.

Isolationism promotes war and human misery.

[Mr. Smith]

24. Hmmm, seems like invading other countries promotes war and human misery.

Maybe we should look for a role on the world stage somewhere between isolationism and being the self-appointed world's policeman.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

25. Yes, that's what liberal Democrats do.

That's not what libertarians or Democratic Socialists or Republicans do.

I stand with the traditions of the liberal Democratic Party.

[MicaelS]

16. Their Non-Aggression Principle is bullshit.

It is used to attack abortion rights. And most of the ones doing it are men.

What is more fundamental than the right to control one's own body? Libertarians believe in that in all respects, except abortion. They argue for the Legalization of Prostitution but not Abortion?

Bull-fucking-shit. It is true that Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke dope.I know because I used to be a Libertarian. I now reject their whole philosophy.

[comradebillyboy]

26. Rand Paul is the leading libetarian in the Senate.

Former Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan was a self professed libertarian as well. The Koch brothers are also notable libertarians.

[lilactime]

18. ITA. I am related to a libertarian gay married couple. They vote REPUBLICAN.

They have never voted for Democrats.

And "I've got mine, fuck everyone else" is totally their attitude.

[pnwmom]

7. No, because social libertarians are still people with extreme rightwing economic views.

I don't think someone with Ayn Rand-style economic views is okay simply because they think pot and abortion should be legalized, and are pro LGBT rights.

There are 2 styles of extreme right-wingers: the pro-pot, pro-choice people call themselves Libertarians; and the anti-abortion, anti-LGBT, anti-weed people call themselves Republicans. But both want government, regulations, and taxes to be as minimal as possible.

[IluvPitties]

12. True point.

I guess there is only a marginal point of agreement between them and most of us here.

[comradebillyboy]

27. So Howard Schultz is not your guy then. He's the perfect example of

'someone with Ayn Rand-style economic views is okay simply because they think pot and abortion should be legalized, and are pro LGBT rights.' A veritable pro-choice version of Paul Ryan.

[lame54]

10. Libertarians are THE WORST...

They fight for a fantasy land that will never exist

[MicaelS]

17. I'd say it was a tie.

Between Libertarians and Communists. The familiar refrain is:

"We do not know if Libertarianism/Communism will work, because we have never had TRUE Libertarianism/Communism.".

[JHB]

22. You can add "Conservative" to that

Conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed.

[Tiggeroshii]

36. There is a philosophy deemed social libertarian or left-libertarianism

That is very different from what you are assuming the OP is talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[lame54]

38. Advice...

Drop the term libertarian

A social idiot or a left idiot is still an idiot

[Tiggeroshii]

39. thats not up to me.

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2019, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

but just because idiots made a term look bad, doewnt necessarily make it a bad term. librrtarian is just what is.used to described the place on the the political philosophical grid. you are likely to also fall tech~icall in some.mix of libertarianism if you dont believe in pure fascism. thats just theory though andhas no.Implication on the grand scheme of.things.


on edit, i am thinking of.libertarian socialist not social libertarian which is just a libe and.let be attitude on.social issues without any other stipulations pertaining to it

[SKKY]

11. Libertarians, like Republicans, want to avail themselves to all the benefits of...

...our Republic, but want none of the responsibility of maintaining said Republic.

[JHB]

14. I don't think of it at all

(That's probably the most appropriate libertarian reply.)

Who's "they"? What do "they" mean by it? What do you mean by it?

Don't tell me "google it". I'm not going to wade through a page about a subset of political philosophy to decipher what parts you find problematic vs. what you find agreeable. Just briefly give us what you're thinking that prompts you to ask this question.

[MineralMan]

15. Most libertarians reject collectivism.

They look at liberty as an individual thing, rather than a collective thing. They want freedom to do as they please, without consideration of anyone else's freedom, as a rule.

Basically, if they want to do something, that's a good thing. If you want to do something else, that's a bad thing.

Libertarianism is a personal thing, not a collective thing.

So, a libertarian who owns a business wants to run that business however he or she wishes. The workers, for example, are not part of that decision-making process. They are replaceable. So the needs of the workers are not the libertarian's concern. Labor unions conflict with the libertarian's freedom to operate that business and are, therefore, bad.

[JHB]

19. Yes, I know that. It's this "social libertarianism" the OP was asking about...

...that I'm questioning. I've probably encountered it, but not by that name. It's entirely possible I could say "I agree with this and this points, but those are easy points that have a lot of overlap with liberalism, whereas that, that, and the other point overlook x-y-z effects and/or veer into the libertarian version of utopian thinking, winding up as useful idiots for the wealthy and powerful."


I suppose I'm a little testy with posters who assume others are as familiar with relatively rare terms and understand them the same way, especially when the component terms have been spun and stretched through the years so that you can't tell what it means just from the supposedly descriptive phrase.

[MineralMan]

21. There's no universally accepted definition of "social libertarianism."

For a lot of people, it means little more than being able to smoke a joint in public. For others, it has a broader meaning.

Many political terms are like that. They mean different things to everyone who uses them.

[JHB]

23. Thus my original question to the OP.

I was trying to get something a little more focused than "What do you think about this amorphous, ill-defined cloud?"

[ismnotwasm]

20. They are kinda fun to talk too

But, for instance, they don’t believe in governmental regulation and think free markets forces would take up the slack for formal regulatory bodies. That’s crazy.

[marylandblue]

29. There are left libertarians and right libertarians

In America, we see almost exclusively right libertarians. A left libertarian would be social libertarian who recognizes that excess accumulation of wealth and power are a danger to liberty, so would favor decentralized government, limitation or elimination of corporations, and increasing worker rights to make negotiation between workers and owners more equitable.

[Act_of_Reparation]

30. Well, good luck getting a satisfactory answer.

All these replies and maybe one or two of them actually read what you wrote.

[Bonx]

32. No. Libertarians are individualists. Democrats are collectivists.

Can't bridge that.

[Codeine]

33. Republicans with bongs.

They’re worse than Republicans; the Republicans are at least honest about being bigoted hateful assholes. Libertarians just make a few noises about social progressivism while still being utter douchefucks.

[ismnotwasm]

40. I do have to admit

The ones I know personally aren’t exactly the finest examples of humanity, up to and including my own brother. Strange brew.

[misanthrope]

42. Many of the libertarians I've encountered

have come across as being emotionally arrested in adolescence to some degree. They adopt libertarianism in the same some go straight for the anarchist label: it's their attempt at being "edgy" and maintaining some "cooler/smarter than thou" persona.

Sure there are the ones who are straight from the "screw you, I got mine" camp but there's plenty who still tout their alt culture bona fides, talking about the underground and punk scenes of their youth while trying to prevent seeing themselves as growing old. Adopting libertarianism is a way of staying in contact with their need to disrupt.

Nick Gillespie is a good example.

[MarvinGardens]

44. Libertarians are closer to us than Republicans are.

This is my opinion, because I used to be one. I started voting mostly for Democrats around 2010, and starting in 2016 a straight-D voter. People change. But also, parties change. Over the past 20 years, I've watched the Democratic party become more libertarian, while the Republican party became more authoritarian. I could never imagine supporting a Republican now.

Am I a "social libertarian" now? I believe you own yourself, live and let live. So most likely, yes.

[pnwmom]

51. Depends on the person. Some libertarians have economic views that are much more rightwing

than moderate Republicans.

[MarvinGardens]

57. You are correct.

Some of their economic views were so far out as to be impractical, not to mention heartless. I always figured the party would moderate as more folks joined, but I think they hit a wall where the platform was extreme enough to prevent further growth. Other RW economic views I agreed with, and I was wrong for that. On civil liberties and personal freedom, the platform was always very liberal.

[Hassler]

52. The libertarian is a project cooked up by the fascist Koch brothers.

[Tiggeroshii]

56. social libertarian is not affiliated with a party

it just means you believe people should be allowed to live jow they like and does not include any additional stipulations besides that.

[pnwmom]

58. It also means you think you should not have to pay taxes if that's how you want to live.

It's just another flavor of right-wing economics.