NBC poll: 50% Americans have negative opinions of "socialism"; only 18% view it positively.

[pnwmom]

Most Americans approve the policies -- Medicare, Social Security, etc. -- that some Democrats are labeling as "socialism" -- but they don't have positive associations with the word itself.

It looks like we're going to have to dig ourselves out of a massive branding hole that we never needed to jump into. We not only have to promote our progressive agenda, but also re-educate tens of millions of people not to view "socialism" as something bad. Like the Soviet Socialist Republic, or the National Socialist German Worker's party. Or the current dictatorship in Venezuela.)

We should have been championing the policies, not the word "socialism." We can't complain that the R's falsely label us as socialists when people such as Bernie and AOC are proud to wear that label.

(And before anyone brings up the Nordic countries, they don't view themselves as Democratic socialists. They are Social Democrats. There's a difference. Their democracies are compatible with capitalism.)

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/distraught-gop-consultant-hints-may-leave-party-disgraceful-display-trump-cpac-crowd/

(At this link is an MSNBC interview segment where they mention the results of the poll.)

[Cetacea]

1. A majority of Americans love socialist programs

Democrats need to stop themselves from being bullied by right-wing corporate media and re-frame the narrative.

[nycbos]

2. Most Americans aren't smart enough to understand the difference.

We won't win if we brand ourselves as "socialist"

[Cetacea]

12. They'll apply the word to no matter who wins the nomination

And they will stay united on that message now. All over the airwaves.

[trixie2]

17. Right!

They either think of Russia and can't discern between socialism and communism or think of Germany in the time of Hitler.

Roads, schools, hospitals, police, fire, etc aren't even connected anymore with socialist ideals.

[brush]

43. This should not be a surprise to those of us with working brains.

Sanders, who has been calling himself one for years, and a certain freshman Congresswoman have gotten off on the wrong foot with that labeling of themselves.

Advocating for programs and policies that help the 99% can certainly be done but why dig a hole for the party when for many decades the word socialism has had a negative connotation for many who still thing is means "those who don't work, don't eat", or "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Many voters understanding of socialism v commnism v fascism is not that great. Remenber during Obama years he was being called all three on the same poster,

[demosincebirth]

90. You're so right.

[Joe941]

104. I never will say most Americans are not smart. Come on.

[uponit7771]

116. +1

[pnwmom]

11. Maybe they do, but they don't approve of "socialists" or "socialism" -- so we have to massively

reeducate the American public about what WE mean by the word.

With our completely unnecessary insistence on describing our policies as socialist, we are handing the Rs a powerful weapon to use against us.

[irresistable]

21. it is just a word

[JI7]

29. the meaning is imporant when it comes to elections

and support for programs.

[irresistable]

47. only in the minds of those who cower before the Republicans

[JI7]

52. many in the US do cower before republicans

[watoos]

36. Bingo.

[Cetacea]

54. And who is going to educate them and on what channels? eom

[kennetha]

64. like 'christian' or 'democrat' are just words

maybe should start using the word 'democratic' to mean what 'monarchy' used to mean. We could start using the word 'christian' to mean atheist.

As if words and their meanings don't matter and we can just use any word to mean whatever we want to mean by it.

[irresistable]

86. We waste our energy worrying about what Republicans will call us.

They called Obama and Hillary socialist.

[Stellar]

14. Exactly!

That's BIG MONEY hard at work.

[watoos]

35. You are 100% on the money.

The right wants us to cower and whimper at a word. Screw the zombies who say, "keep your government hands off my Medicare, they are beyond help.

There's a speech that St. Ronnie gave talking about that scary, Socialist Medicare, maybe I will dig it out and listen to it again for a big laugh.

It's time to fight back and not fight among ourselves. This thread can easily turn into a hit piece on Bernie and AOC.

I will have to continue reading this thread to see if I was right.

[TwilightZone]

3. Unfortunately, the horse is out of the barn.

Once the S word was associated with a couple of our candidates, it's going to be the go-to smear from the right for all of them, regardless of their place on the political scale. Of course, that's their usual MO - find something to pick at and then apply it to all Democrats equally.

The ironic thing is that neither Bernie nor AOC are socialists in the European view of the word. I recall a couple of articles (BBC, I think) from the 2016 race where Europeans were scoffing at Bernie being identified as a socialist.

[Iliyah]

4. Oh come on, geez. . . .

The Republican party spouting this and polls follow this BS.

[EleanorR]

8. Exactly. This is just more bs from republicans trying to control the message.

[watoos]

38. Yes it is,

It's a Rupert Murdoch Wall Street Journal poll. The way to attack this is not to run from it, enough is enough. The M$M and polls are not our friends.

AOC and Bernie are really centrists when you break down the issues they support.

[pnwmom]

94. Why should we be making it easier for them? The Nordic countries don't consider themselves

to be socialist countries. FDR didn't consider his ideas to be socialist -- just good government. So why should we be pushing the idea that they are?

[Doremus]

111. Do you understand that it's the GOP that's emphasizing the word?

Just like they demonized the word "liberal" and bastardized the word "Democratic."

Avoiding or shying away from the word Socialist shows nothing but weakness. We need to confront the idiots trying to bash us over the head with it, not run away in fear. Most people are NOT stupid and can see through the propaganda if we educate them with confidence and not cowardice.

[pnwmom]

112. I understand that Bernie, AOC, and others have labelled themselves with the word.

And they didn't have to, because the views they describe are much closer to the Social Democrats of the Nordic countries than to Democratic Socialists (who are actually socialists).

[Doremus]

113. If we let them demonize the word we've already lost whether they're "Democratic Socialists" or not.

BTW, I think you're wrong about Democratic Socialists.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/17/bernies-democratic-socialism-isnt-socialism-its-social-democracy/#1abadc30272d


Edited to add:

When I say "let them demonize," I mean that by running away from the terminology that they're demonizing we're showing weakness. Why give them a two-fer? Let's stand up straight and confidently explain that socialism isn't evil, period.

[pnwmom]

115. We didn't "let" them. Millions of Americans formed negative associations with the word long ago,

when it was connected to the Soviet SOCIALIST Republic and the National SOCIALIST German Workers Party (the Nazis.)

I'm not sure why you posted that link because it supports my view. Bernie and AOC are more Social Democrats, like the Nordic countries, than Democratic Socialists. I've never heard them talking about the government owning or controlling the means of production.

From the website of the Democrat Socialists of America:

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/#govt

Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

[Doremus]

120. So how do we disassociate from the evil socialism?

Let's assume your argument is legit and most people have a deep fear of Democratic Socialism (which I believe is not true). Tell us how to disassociate from it.

[SCantiGOP]

5. Do what the Chinese did

They were a Communist country, defined as a system where the state owned all the means of production. When they realized they could not ever become a modern society and bring their billions of people out of poverty with that economic model, they redefined Communism as “whatever is best for the masses,” which happened to be a government-controlled market economy.

They still proclaim to be a Communist State, but they are no more communist than a lot of “social democratic” countries.

We need to re-brand and rename our approach as something other than “Socialism.”

[watoos]

39. I live among them in central Pa.

and I rebrand nothing. When they accuse Dems of wanting free stuff I know how to fight back. It just happened to me, I told them why is it ok to give my tax dollars, to give billions of dollars to soybean farmers because Trump's tariffs have gutted their profits. You know what they told me? They said that's not right either. I told them that corporations are bigger leeches than poor people. I told them about using tax dollars to build stadiums and arenas and then give the "owners" the profits from the luxury boxes. I told them the Socialists are really crony capitalists who Socialize the costs and privatize the profits.

That's what I do when Trumpers call me a Socialist backer. The second thing I don't do is believe or care about Rupert Murdoch polls.

[at140]

6. Sweden style socialism is good, Venezuela style

is bad. SO it all depends on the style of socialism.
It is not a monolithic, one style fits all system.

[pnwmom]

13. The Swedes don't consider their government to be socialist. They are Social Democrats,

Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2019, 12:10 AM - Edit history (1)

not Democratic Socialists, and there is a significant difference. Democratic Socialists are socialists. The Social Democratic countries are capitalistic, but have strong regulations and social programs.

[trixie2]

18. Excellent points!

[Blue_true]

31. Great explanation and on target.

People love to mention FDR and the Nordic countries did or are doing. FDR was very cautious (largely ignored the plight of Blacks) while working within a capitalist system, the system in the Nordic countries work hand in hand with capitalism. Bernie and to a large extent AOC view capitalism as incarnate evil, which it isn't, even as it has problems that need to and can be fixed.

[watoos]

40. You must not be old enough to remember,

watching Dylan Ratigan at 4PM on msnbc. He explained so dummies like me could understand. We don't have capitalism in America, we have crony capitalism. He was so passionate, I miss him. msnbc fired him because he strayed from the right wing corporate narrative.

Crony capitalism is incarnate evil. What's going to happen as a result of Trump's tax cuts for the rich and for corporations? Trump gave them 1.5 trillion dollars which is going to increase our deficit to a trillion dollars a year. You can't have nice things if you don't have revenue coming in. Income inequality is a huge problem in the US and the gap is widening, that is in fact obscene. Piketty's book on income inequality is a distant memory.

[Blue_true]

46. Ratigan was a Wall Street type financial guru.

But since leaving MSNBC, he is been a force in venture capital to launch numerous companies that are concerned about food safety, purity and sustainability.

[pnwmom]

101. No one's saying our system of capitalism doesn't have to be reformed -- greatly.

That doesn't mean it needs to be tossed completely and socialism adopted instead.

[at140]

96. My wife being Swedish, I know a lot about Sweden

I have spent much time in Sweden and had extensive conversations with my 6 in-laws all living in Sweden. I can easily conclude compared to United States, Sweden is much more socialized !

[pnwmom]

100. They have socialized medicine and other excellent social programs. But it is still all based

on a capitalist economy, not on a socialist economy, where the government owns and controls the means of production.

[at140]

107. That is true and actually

Sweden has moved towards encouraging private industry via tax reductions. Their personal income taxes are however much higher than US. Most people live in multi-family buildings and
Single family homes seem smaller than ours.

[kennetha]

65. Sweden isn't a socialist country.

[GulfCoast66]

70. Maybe because Sweden is not Socialist?

Last I checked their business and industry had not been taken over by the government? Which is the accepted definition of Socialism.

Sweden is a prosperous capitalist nation with strong Social Democratic policies.

Venezuela is a true socialist country. The government has taken over all major industries. With the expected results.

[Celerity]

83. +1

[IluvPitties]

7. We are not socialists. We just want the world wealthiest nation

to be fair to its citizens.

[TheBlackAdder]

9. Time for 15-seconds ads: Military-Socialism, Social Security-Socialism, Police-Socialism, Roads...

[Garrett78]

10. Garrett78 poll*: 97.3% of Americans don't know what socialism is.

Including self-proclaimed socialists who think the Nordic Model equates to socialism.

*This poll is not scientific--not even remotely.

[watoos]

41. Venezuela isn't Socialist either.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

66. Sure it is. Chavez and Maduro both explicitly embrace(d) Democratic Socialism

and the Democratic Socialists of America back Maduro 100%.

"Long Live the Bolivarian Revolution!" is the current proclamation of the DSA.

[GulfCoast66]

73. Yeah, they are.

The government has taken over business and industry. Pretty much the text book definition of Socialism.

[TwilightZone]

15. Similar numbers in 2016 race Gallup poll.

50% said they wouldn't vote for a socialist, according to Gallup in 2015. Below Muslim and atheist, which I found a little...odd.

So, sentiment doesn't seem to have changed much, which is interesting.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

[RDANGELO]

16. All they have to do is say one thing,

"I believe in a market economy". The word does not mean the same thing to conservatives than it does to everybody else. To conservatives it means anyone who wants more government involvement in things like health care. To everyone else it means total government control of the economy. Polls actually show that most people want more government involvement.

This out of the latest NBC poll.

a. Government should do more to help people 55%

b. Governments should not. 41%

[RockRaven]

19. What percent can accurately define "socialism" without it being multiple choice

and multiple choice with ridiculous wrong answers at that?

[pnwmom]

22. Not many. But few Americans have positive associations with the WORD "socialist" even if they like

the policies that some Democrats associate with the word.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

20. Most Americans probably know less about what Socialism actually is

than they know about quantum physics. Or calculus, which is really cool, and you should really get far enough in math to take calculus because it's the reward for the earlier algebra classes you took.

[pnwmom]

25. True. Which increases the likelihood that they will dislike it. Unfortunately,

by choosing to lash our policies to the word "socialist," we're unnecessarily taking the risk of going down with a socialist ship.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

23. Medicare, Social Security, Police and Fire, Schools, etc.

Are not socialism.

Americans are not that stupid.

Someone is trying to sell BS.

[pnwmom]

27. Bernie and his Democratic Socialists claim they are. n/t

[CrossingTheRubicon]

28. I'm not sure I can give a response that conforms to the board rules.

Except it ain't so.

[redstateblues]

71. Graduated income tax and Medicare are

[CrossingTheRubicon]

72. LOL. No.

[GulfCoast66]

75. No. They are not.

[bullwinkle428]

24. If Bernie and AOC had never been born, these poll results would be unchanged.

[pnwmom]

26. True! But before Bernie came along, the R's got very little traction when they tried

to label D's as socialists.

Now he's made it easy for them. He's proud to wear that label, and so are some of his young followers.

[watoos]

45. You darn well better believe I'm proud of

Bernie and AOC. Bernie and AOC are really centrists if you break down what they stand for. Saying that Bernie and AOC are far to the left is a big con job that the right wing corporate M$M has pulled on us.

Thank god for Bernie moving our party farther toward the center where it belongs. Yes I voted for Bernie and Hillary. I try not to speak ill of progressives.

Are nuclear power plants an example of Socialism or capitalism?

[pnwmom]

49. The Soviet Socialist Republic was building nuclear power plants at the same time we were.

And the worst accident anywhere was there.

So nuclear power plants have been built in capitalist systems as well as socialist systems.

But I didn't ask if you were proud of Bernie and AOC. My OP was about the problem that most Americans have negative opinions about socialism, even if they support many of the programs that some Democrats claim are socialist. So we are insisting on lashing ourselves to an unpopular brand, which we could have more easily sold as something else: e.g., FDR Democrats.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/nuclear-disaster-at-chernobyl

1986
Nuclear disaster at Chernobyl

On April 26, 1986, the world’s worst nuclear power plant accident occurs at the Chernobyl nuclear power station in the Soviet Union. Thirty-two people died and dozens more suffered radiation burns in the opening days of the crisis, but only after Swedish authorities reported the fallout did Soviet authorities reluctantly admit that an accident had occurred.

The Chernobyl station was situated at the settlement of Pripyat, about 65 miles north of Kiev in the Ukraine. Built in the late 1970s on the banks of the Pripyat River, Chernobyl had four reactors, each capable of producing 1,000 megawatts of electric power. On the evening of April 25, 1986, a group of engineers began an electrical-engineering experiment on the Number 4 reactor. The engineers, who had little knowledge of reactor physics, wanted to see if the reactor’s turbine could run emergency water pumps on inertial power.

As part of their poorly designed experiment, the engineers disconnected the reactor’s emergency safety systems and its power-regulating system. Next, they compounded this recklessness with a series of mistakes: They ran the reactor at a power level so low that the reaction became unstable, and then removed too many of the reactor’s control rods in an attempt to power it up again. The reactor’s output rose to more than 200 megawatts but was proving increasingly difficult to control. Nevertheless, at 1:23 a.m. on April 26, the engineers continued with their experiment and shut down the turbine engine to see if its inertial spinning would power the reactor’s water pumps. In fact, it did not adequately power the water pumps, and without cooling water the power level in the reactor surged.

[watoos]

53. What private corporation insures nuclear power plants?

Who pays for disposal of the nuclear waste? If it weren't for our tax dollars subsidizing nuclear power plants no private corporation would ever build one.

Privatize the profits, Socialize the costs.

[pnwmom]

60. That could be true. But what does it have to do with the fact that both capitalistic and socialist

governments have had nuclear power plants?

And what does that have to do with the fact that the word "socialist" is viewed negatively by 50% of Americans, and positively by only 18%?

[diva77]

79. Well said, watoos!

[Historic NY]

30. If someone doesn't get out front soon it will be a losing issue....

but keep swinging the term it might hit 60%

[Guilded Lilly]

32. It's pretty apparent that America is woefully uninformed and...

with the treason spewing, corrupt Republican Party in a position of power and a media that has lost its spine, mind AND professionalism, they will remain ...woefully uninformed. (I am being way too kind because I am bone weary of using the term The Stupid.) Dumb-assed Reality TV American Government has temporarily won the ratings.

That is exactly where the malignant Cretin and his fucked up Democracy-destroying mob wanted them.

It is going to be one hellaciously fierce battle. It’s slowly turning in favor of decency, intelligence and the rule of law. And once we regain power, the mop up of the puddle of stinking pond scum that has been left behind by the outgoing party will affect us for decades.

(So much for a relaxing retirement from advocacy!)

I just seriously cannot get over how we got to this depressing state. It should NEVER have happened.

[GulfCoast66]

76. It appears to me many on the left are uninformed!

All the things we want; stronger Medicare and SS, Universal Healthcare, higher minimum wages, strong Unions, and so on and so forth. None of those is socialism!

Socialism is the government(collective) ownership of business and industry(means of production).

I’ve never read a post on DU of someone wanting that.

There are no socialist countries in Western Europe. The are all prosperous capitalist nations with strong social democratic policies.

[Hekate]

33. Choice: you can waste your money & time as a candidate trying to educate the brainwashed, or...

...YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE ANOTHER FRICKING WORD BESIDES SOCIALIST

[Takket]

34. Just do what the GOP does

If something sounds awful just describe it with words like freedom and patriot and people will love it.
Socialism becomes Freedom from anti-patriotic oligarchy policies.

[watoos]

50. Exactly, well said,

I'm not afraid to fight back against Trumpers who call me a Socialist, I laugh at them.

I posed the question up above, are nuclear power plants an example of capitalism or Socialism?

Maybe Democrats should start repeating the narrative that government is the problem and not the solution, because that is what this discussion is really about. We can thank Reagan for that.

[Awsi Dooger]

37. Socialism will be the Benghazi of 2020

The details don't matter in the slightest. The GOP finds an easily remembered word and attaches it to fear, fear, fear.

It is beyond incredible that we volunteered an association with that word.

If you challenge the American public to be scared and stupid, they'll oblige.

[MiltonBrown]

42. That's because of the word's association with the Nazis

Never mind that they are complete opposites.

[pnwmom]

56. And the Soviet Socialist Republic. And right now, with the Venezuelan dictatorship.

What all those systems have in common is a dictator.

(The people in the Nordic democracies are Social Democrats -- that's not the same thing as Democratic socialists.)

[MiltonBrown]

57. I have positive view of socialist policies but we need to not use that word

Nazi Germany and USSR- yep- Americans view these as evil and rightfully so.

[Lucid Dreamer]

80. No matter what you say, SOCI... is going to stop a lot of people in their tracks.

pnwmom> (The people in the Nordic democracies are Social Democrats -- that's not the same thing as Democratic socialists.)

True or not, the above difference will never be understood or remembered in a political campaign.
SOCI... and the conversation is over for many people.

IT IS AN ANCHOR. And the Party better understand the problem and figure out how to talk to the "50% Americans" soon.

This is too scary to ignore.

[pnwmom]

81. I agree -- this is a problem we have to face. And welcome to DU, Lucid Dreamer. n/t

[Lucid Dreamer]

85. Thanx, Mom.

I've been a lurker for years. I don't like social media in general for sharing MY ideas so I remain silent for the most part.
But I think there are blind spots in the Party and I gotta poke things just to get folks thinking in different directions.
I'm not always right, for sure. But we MUST be prepared to answer the "not right" people.

[CousinIT]

44. Democrats are labeling Medicare & Social Security as "socialism"? No. Republicans ...

.... have been calling those programs "socialism" and have been trying to destroy them since their inception.

The problem isn't "Democrats"

[Cetacea]

48. Exactly. In the 80's it was "bleeding heart liberals".

This has very little to do with Bernie or AOC.

[pnwmom]

51. They weren't getting anywhere calling those programs "socialism" in the past, but now that

progressives are choosing that label, we're making it easier for the R's to attack us on that basis.

[watoos]

59. You lost me,

I have no problem calling Medicare and SS Socialism. Medicare and SS are very popular with working class Republicans. SS has the added benefit that it contributes nothing to the deficit, contrary to what Republicans preach.

[CousinIT]

99. Claiming social security adds to debt or deficit gives Republicans an excuse to cut/gut it

They know better. But they hope other people don't. They rely on the ignorance of voters to believe their crap and then to thus approve of their robber baronism.

[NoMoreRepugs]

55. DNC needs a wordsmith.

SS and Medicare, schools, fire n police departments are
people programs for EVERYONE.... our side just needs to hammer that home every single day IMO.

[watoos]

62. Yes Yes Yes.

The Army Corps of Engineers built our flood control project and now our borough maintains it. The stream goes through the center of our borough. My house is not located near the flood plain but I totally supported the project.

Democrats need to do a better job of fighting back against a name which is nothing more than propaganda.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

67. Socialism is the government ownership of the mean of production and distribution.

Why the BS?

[SHRED]

58. Stupid distraction

Over a word.

[NurseJackie]

61. Unsurprising.

Yes... There is a difference. Words mean things.

[kennetha]

63. A bunch of historically uninformed "democrats"

who seem to know no political or economic history, and who think maybe FDR and LBJ were “socialists,” probably because they are totally in the thrall of Bernie Sanders’ demagoguery, think suddenly they can make the word ‘socialism’ mean something it’s never meant before in the history of political-economy.

They are walking into a trap. Socialism, including democratic socialism has a very long actual history, you just can’t wish it away, as if by semantic magic.


Bernie, on the other hand, is really and truly a life long socialist, a democratic socialist, but a dyed in the wool actual socialist.

He is not now and has never been a new deal style Democrat at all. I know why he is running in our party. He wants to hijack it and make it his own. Remake it in the image of democratic socialism.


Go get your own party, Bernie. You can’t have ours!

[CrossingTheRubicon]

68. +1000

You nailed it!

[harumph]

69. A significant portion of Americans don't even understand what a mixed economy is.

If we as a country can't get a democratic president in 2020, put a fork in it.
I will vote for anyone who wins the primary with a D behind his or her name -
irrespective of whether I think they're likable.

[PatrickforO]

74. Instead of trying to 'dig ourselves out' of this 'massive hole,'

I'm going to suggest we reply simply, with something like, "Oh, Socialism...you mean like Social Security and Medicare? or maybe Police and Teachers and Firefighters?"

Or maybe, "Yeah, yeah, you call anything you don't like 'socialism.' Like Social Security and Medicare? Police, Teachers and Firefighters? That socialism? Clean water, maybe? or good roads?"

Another suggestion: "Oh, socialism? Like the giant tax cut for corporations and billionaires? Like Amazon making record profits of $2.5 billion in 2018 and paying ZERO in Federal Income Tax? That socialism? Hey, better vote Democratic then!"

Remember, if we bend over backwards explaining, we don't have the initiative.

OF COURSE they are going to go after socialism, because back in the day when we boomers were young, we had the Soviet Union, which operated aggressively against us, trying to throw wrenches into all of our policies so as to hasten the 'revolution.' Problem was, the Soviet Union was actually a totalitarian dictatorship. Same with Venezuela. Same with N. Korea.

Remember, Republicans are on the corporate payroll of big oil, big pharma, big hospital systems, and the MIC. They will accuse anyone of anything if they think it can win them an election - by hook or by crook.

Healthcare, green new deal, debt-free college - all MASSIVELY popular.

So let's not tear our hair (well, I'm kinda bald so I won't be doing that over some word. Let's just pound on the message, and let's NOT count on the corporate owned media. We need to mount our campaigns at the grass roots - phone calls, knocking on doors, massive coordinated social media.

No, our platform is a WINNER people. It is! Let's go WIN with it. Be aggressive. No walking on eggs or being fearful the Republicans will have 'ammunition' against us. Let's go back at them, line by line, statement by statement, tweet by tweet, facebook post by facebook post. Don't give up, don't give in, and DON'T WAFFLE.

[pnwmom]

82. The difference now is that some of us insist on being called socialists.

And they don't just mean having police, health care, and good roads.

By that definition, Canada would be a socialist country -- and it's not. The UK and the Irish Republic and Australia and New Zealand would be socialist -- and they're not.

It doesn't benefit us AT ALL to insist on that label, which has negative associations for millions of Americans.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#2e501bd974ad

It is certainly true that Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark are notable economic successes. What is false is that these countries are particularly socialist.

The myth of Nordic socialism is partially created by a confusion between socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs. However, the left’s embrace of socialism is not merely a case of redefining a word. Simply look at the long-running affinity of leftists with socialist dictators in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela for proof many on the left long for real socialism.

To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs.

First, it is worth noting that the Nordic counties were economic successes before they built their welfare states. Those productive economies, generating good incomes for their workers, allowed the governments to raise the tax revenue needed to pay for the social benefits. It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs.

SNIP

[Duppers]

84. 👏 👍👍

Bravo!


Add cutting the farmers subsidies to the list.

[GulfCoast66]

77. Our platform is a Winner! But not socialist!

As an educated man I understand words have defined means. Medicare and Social Security are not examples of Socialism! Anymore than roads and schools!

Socialism is the state(collective) ownership of business and industry(means of production). No democrat wants that.

Why in the hell so many Democrats are willing to accept a label that is in-accurate and unpopular confounds the hell out of me!

[kennetha]

78. Cause they worship at the alter of Bernie

who is a dyed-in-the wool democratic socialist and wants to turn the democratic party of the USA into the Democratic Socialist Party of the USA.

Bernie's bait and switch.

[Kablooie]

87. "Socialism" means nothing in itself so a poll about it is useless.

Socialism can mean anything from minor concessions to groups of people to a total society where everything is shared.
Everyone has their own idea of what it means and even that can change depending on cultural influences.

It's a stupid question and it's unwise for Democrats to label things as socialist because you never know what it will mean to others.

[Lucid Dreamer]

88. "unwise to label things as socialist" Well said. n/t

[pnwmom]

89. No, it's not useless to find out that many Americans have negative associations with the word.

As you realize, it's unwise to handicap ourselves for the sake of a word.

[melman]

91. This again?

Terrific.

[Meowmee]

92. Some definitions I found:

Norway is more socialist with the state having significant ownership in many of the larger companies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists

I do believe the term socialism is going to be a problem on some level. I remember a group of older men who demonstated frequently near us with signs saying: don’t let the gov take or control my medicare- or something like that. Telling them that medicare was a federal program was useless. 😹😳

[pnwmom]

93. Your first link refers to them as being founded on "free market capitalism,"

"with a commitment to private ownership (with some caveats), a mixed economy, and free trade." That doesn't describe a socialist system. It describes a capitalist system with a strong safety net.

From your first link:

The Nordic model refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, and Sweden). This includes a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level with a high percentage of the workforce unionized while being based on the economic foundations of free market capitalism.[1][2][3] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[4][5]

The Scandinavian countries were all monarchies, with Finland and Iceland becoming republics in the 20th century. Currently, the Nordic countries have been described as being highly democratic. Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a universalist welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to private ownership (with some caveats), a mixed economy[7] and free trade.[8]

[Meowmee]

95. I did read it😹

Here is the part about Norway being more socialist and less capitalist with the state owning large shares of the stock market & major companies. This can be found elsewhere as well. All Nordic socialist societies are based on welfare systems, another word which won’t go over well here.

Norway's particularities

The state of Norway has ownership stakes in many of the country's largest publicly listed companies, owning 37% of the Oslo stockmarket[37] and operating the country's largest non-listed companies including Equinor and Statkraft. The Economist reports that "after the second world war the government nationalised all German business interests in Norway and ended up owning 44% of Norsk Hydro's shares. The formula of controlling business through shares rather than regulation seemed to work well, so the government used it wherever possible. 'We invented the Chinese way of doing things before the Chinese', says Torger Reve of the Norwegian Business School".[37]

The government also operates a sovereign wealth fund, the Government Pension Fund of Norway—whose partial objective is to prepare Norway for a post-oil future, but "unusually among oil-producing nations, it is also a big advocate of human rights—and a powerful one, thanks to its control of the Nobel peace prize".[38]

Norway is the only major economy in the West where younger generations are getting richer, with a 13% increase in disposable income for 2018, bucking the trend seen in other Western nations of Millennials becoming poorer than the generations which came before.[39]

[helpisontheway]

97. If Trump is wins again it is because we screwed up...

I saw that @sshole’s approval is at 46% now. It was not a Rasmussen poll either. Chuck Todd mentioned it so it might be a NBC poll. I’m so sick of these dumb ass people that support him but complain about his policies. Complain about the shutdown,healthcare and their income tax check yet support him? 😡

[democratisphere]

98. Might be a good idea to remove "social***" from the Democratic political vocabulary.

[beachbum bob]

102. "Socialism" will never be a word viewed positively by many americans and WHY it needs REBRANDING

[Doodley]

103. No candidate who calls himself a socialist will win against Trump, IMO.

[allgood33]

105. I said before that Democrats needed to snatch the framing of "socialism" from the GOP.

???

[Freethinker65]

106. Come up with a new term and define theirs.

Instead of GOPs "Corrupt Cronie Corporate Capitalism" where only the wealthy and politically connected easily enrich themselves at everyone else's sacrifice and expense, the Democratic Party believes in ______________________ (Democratic Capitalism, Fair Capitalism, Opportunity for All, etc.). Create a term, use it and define it at every media event.

[apnu]

108. Propaganda, its a hell of a drug.

Crispin Glover has been talking about propaganda for years, but he's on to something.

[Yavin4]

109. Oligopolic media entity has manufactured poling data stating that Americans hate

policies that benefit the common man but not corporations.

There. I fixed it.

[pnwmom]

110. The OP didn't say Americans hate the POLICIES. Just the WORD that's mistakenly used

to describe policies that co-exist with free market trade (not just socialist economies) in many countries, including Canada.

[nini]

114. They should be asked to define it first

They don't even know what they hate.

[pnwmom]

119. "should"? How about we should pick a brand that isn't associated with the Soviet Socialist Republic

and the National Socialist German Workers Party (aka the Nazis.)

Why do we have to be so dumb at branding? It should be the policies that are paramount to us, not hanging onto an old political term that doesn't even describe what most progressive Democrats believe in. I don't know any Democrat who wants the government to control and own the means of production, do you?

[Quixote1818]

117. 40% are dumb as rocks so they don't know what it is, only that Fox

News says it's bad. Many can be brought over when told exactly what it is.

[pnwmom]

118. Only 18% had positive associations. It's too bad we're tying ourselves to a word that

is viewed negatively by half of Americans -- and doesn't describe the capitalistic, free-trade Social Democracies of the Nordic countries that many Dems say they prefer.

[bdamomma]

121. I guess

socialism is going to be the bad word, WTF. How about when a so called fake POS gets on stage and calls real facts and evidence of pending reports coming out BULLSHIT on the CPAC stage (those people are fucked up), I guess that's the next word the cultists will say. What's next a call to his followers to possibly harm us who haven't drank the kool aid. We have a sick fuck in the WH tarnishing everything we held to a higher standard. Vote the bastard out.

[Lucid Dreamer]

122. I'm with you.

bdamomma> ...socialism is going to be the bad word...
bdamomma> Vote the bastard out.


momma,
I think you are on the right track.
That parallels the OP.

pnwmom> We should have been championing the policies, not the word "socialism."

We must have candidates with philosophies and policies that are not labeled as "socialist."
That is a turnoff for way too many people. We need to grab folks, not shoo them off.

[bdamomma]

124. Welcome to DU

Lucid Dreamer.

Propaganda is a bitch and dangerous. I hate this con man and POS.

[Gothmog]

123. These polling numbers are NOT surprising at all