I just read the College Scandal Indictments - I know 6 people on that list charged and 2 are parents

[Pachamama]

....of my daughter's best friend from childhood who is a freshman at USC.

The daughter didn't know.....

I know the parents very well. I feel sick.

All I can think right now is about how their daughter is doing. She is a good kid. Her parents are charged with mail fraud and may be going to prison. USC may kick her out. I believe she could have gotten in on her own, but we will never know now. Her name and life were forever changed.

The parents knew what they were doing.

I feel sick.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1142876/download

[MineralMan]

1. Uh-oh.

It brings it home when you know people who are involved. I'm sorry to read that.

[Pachamama]

2. Know them very well for almost 18 years.....

[MineralMan]

6. Things have changed so much.

I took the SAT in 1962, as a junior in HS. No prep. No nothing. I just showed up on test day, having paid my fees in advance, and took the test. The next year, I applied to three schools, including Cal Tech and a couple of CA State Colleges. I got accepted to all three, but my parents explained that they couldn't afford to send me to Cal Tech, so I picked one of the state colleges.

The thing that was different was that there was no sense of pressure on me, or any of my classmates in my small town high school. Nobody was fretting about scores or anything like that. It was just a long test on a Saturday morning. Not parents, not school advisors. Nobody. So, I went off to my school, with a major in Electronics Engineering. I dropped out in my Sophomore year and took a 4 year hiatus, and then returned to that same school as a returning student, but as an English major. No sweat, no strain, no stress.

It sure doesn't seem to be that way any more, does it? Sad business, what happened, I think. I feel terrible for the student, who now knows something unpleasant.

[lkinwi]

29. I agree that things have changed.

I didn’t even take SAT’s to get into my state university. All they did was look at my class ranking.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

53. Heck, I'm a couple of years younger than you and took my SAT

and ACT once and once only and those in my senior year.

I did get decent scores.

It really was very different back then.

[Iris]

80. I remember picking my school after a Sunday drive with a friend

My SAT scores were good but I liked sticking close to home. I decided not to go off and spent a year at a junior college. One Sunday a friend and I drove to the campus of a large R1 university in a bordering state. I liked the campus and sent an application then transferred there my sophomore year.

[Renew Deal]

3. Are the parents on the list for cheating for themselves or cheating for the kid?

[Pachamama]

5. Good Question.....

Sadly - I think the power of parents wanting only the best for their kid can supersede all.....even breaking the law.

Its one thing to do something to make sure your kid doesn't starve....

But sadly - this also may have been as much or more for themselves....

Their daughter could have gotten in on her own....

[WillowTree]

15. The sad t hing is, what they did *isn't* what's best for their kid.

Even if they hadn't gotten caught. Because they're were trying to buy what the kid should have earned for him/herself. Sometimes, allowing out children to sink or swim on their own merits is a gift and builds character.

I feel so sorry for the kids who didn't know.........until now. Talk about a self-esteem crusher.......

[Dorian Gray]

46. Right.

This times 1000.

The parents had such little faith in their kids they had to rig the system.

If their kid didn't get into USC and had to go to Cal State instead... That child would still have every advantage and get a great education.

Things are warped.

[TexasBushwhacker]

86. Not to mention, every kid doesn't have to be a high achiever

Would the parents be ashamed if their kid became a nurse, teacher or cop? You don't need to go to an elite college to do those things. How about a mechanic, electrician or plumber? That means trade school, not college. What if their kid is creative and wants to be an artist of some kind?

[jberryhill]

19. The indictment lists people involved in a variety of different schemes

Some the kids claim not to have known about, and some the kids definitely knew about, due to the nature of that scheme.

I feel badly for the kids who would be there, but for the cheaters.

They all seem rather well-off, given what they were willing to drop on these schemes (and the tuition, fees, etc.).

[Leghorn21]

4. Oh man, these kids who didn't know, who have been betrayed by their parents - the full force of

shame and humiliation for them must be unbearable

I hope these kids can get support to guide them through this unimaginable pain - everything they thought they knew is wrong, and their families were utterly destroyed today

I am so sorry

[jrthin]

21. How do you not know that you didn't do well on a test?

The question isn't meant to be provocative, but looking for understanding. During my test taking years I had a good idea when I didn't understand the subject matter well enough and when I fully understand the subject. And regarding athletic ability, you must see peers who are better skilled than yourself, if you are not. I guess I am saying, the children may not be as innocent as we want them to be. I could be wrong.

[jberryhill]

24. On an aptitude test it is difficult to know

Because, unlike "subject matter" tests, someone who is not going to score well on the SAT probably isn't going to get that they aren't scoring well.

The wrong answers are designed in many instances to "seem right", so you could think you are crushing it and come out miserably.

The indictment does go into discussions held with the fixers to the extent that sometimes the kids are surprised at how well they did.

But, since it is all multiple choice, then you'd simply assume that you guessed well on the ones you had no clue about.

[pnwmom]

65. Right. Also, I took the test in two separate years, and I did a lot better the second time.

MUCH better, even though I didn't study much. And I walked out of both sittings not able to tell how well I'd done.

Just having another year of high school under my belt had made a difference, especially in the math.

[Dave Starsky]

90. But the test makers do give you your percentile ranking.

If you score at, say, the 55th percentile, you can safely assume you didn't do so hot.

[jberryhill]

93. And Dunning Kruger takes care of the rest

Last edited Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:22 AM - Edit history (1)

The inept do not possess the competence to perceive their ineptitude. That’s why people like Trump can actually believe they are smarter than everyone else.

[jrthin]

96. Thanks for the smile. How true.

[Leghorn21]

25. Yeah, there is so much of this I don't understand at this point, j, and I may never -

How do you pose as an athlete in some photos and then get to the college and - ??? Do you pretend you tore a muscle or got some bone spurs and can no longer play??

As far as tests - at least, SATs - I was a terrible student in HS and I went and answered all those one billion questions one fine morning and honestly had NO idea how I would score...if you told me I did GREAT or BADLY on those tests, I’d have accepted whatever scores I was given because

Man, think of the hundreds of family members caught up in this today - not just the parents and their kids, who may or may not have had any idea what what going on - but the aunts uncles grandparents cousins babysitters best friends etc etc

I sure am sorry for the kids who didn’t know - how humiliated and ashamed they must be feeling today, through no fault of their own - I hope they get through this, this is a very bad deal here - very sad

[leftieNanner]

30. An answer to one small part of your question

My daughter played high school basketball (and she was a 6 foot tall excellent player). She filled out a recruiting form for the school she ended up attending, and sent in some tape of her games. It's very possible that her basketball talent "helped" nudge her acceptance into the college - although she was academically qualified. Just before she started that fall, she told me that she really didn't want to play basketball in college - she wanted to focus on her academics and have a life. This was a D3 school and there was no $$ involved in the deal.

So that doesn't address the fake team photos, but it does explain that some kids decide not to pursue athletics once they get to school.

[jrthin]

34. Thank you for answering; I was looking for perspectives.

[mercuryblues]

99. The coaches of the sport

these kids applied for told the school the were recruiting them. That gave the kid a huge advantage in acceptance. The kid on the other hand absolutely knew they did not play the sport and went along with the con. I'll save my sympathy for the kid who did not get accepted because of this.

[Ms. Toad]

111. While the kid did know they did not play the sport,

they did not necessarily know the sport was a factor in their admissions. In some instances, at least, the kids heads were photoshopped onto bodies of other individuals without their knowledge.

Spend some time reading the claims - it is astounding the lengths to which parents went to keep their children in the dark (e.g. having the fixer alter enough answrs to earn 30 on the ACT, to ensure the child wasn't excited enough about their score to want to try again; obtaining and "administering" a fake test to a child who was unable to travel to the rigged test center to ensure the child wouldn't be suspicious the stand-in's test results came out for a test they didn't remember taking).

[mercuryblues]

122. I have 4 kids

that went through this process. There is no way these kids did not know lies were being told to gain their admittance . There is no way to hide it.

The reason a fixer was able to alter the answers was because all of a sudden they had a learning disability, which allowed them special privileges to take the exam. That allowed the fixer into the room to administer the exam.

[Ms. Toad]

125. My understanding is that - regardless of what you believe -

many of these kids were completely unaware their acceptances had been bought. The transcripts of the conversations with cooperating witnesses are consistent with that.

[jrthin]

33. Thank you. And you're right about the SATs and such tests. Those aren't

knowledge of subject matter per se.

[pnwmom]

66. I read that some of these photos were photoshopped. And in one case

I read that the instructions -- for whoever was carrying out the scheme -- was just to use a soccer photo of an Asian girl.

Because they all look the same, right?

[pnwmom]

64. Only some of them were involved in the test cheating, and it isn't easy to know

whether your 660 became 720 because someone changed your answers or you just studied more.

In fact, my English score went up that much between two sittings; my math score went up more than a hundred points -- and it was just because I had had another year of school.

[RobinA]

107. Who Said They

didn't do well on the test? Plenty of ace students don't get into elite schools. Or their first choice of an elite school. I wouldn't assume that these kids are dummies. My bet would be that most of these parents were buying assurance. Or a slightly better school than the kid could have gotten on his own.

[Ms. Toad]

112. Read the indictments.

In many instances the parents bought scores for their children - picking the score they wanted their children to have (including ensuring the score was not so high as to raise the child's suspicion)

[dawg day]

7. I don't get it-

It's not hard to get a good higher education in the US. You don't have to go to one of the elite colleges to have a meaningful experience where you learn a lot and meet friends.

This obsession with getting into elite schools is kind of idiotic, that is, if the point of getting into college is to get a good education. In fact, cheating to get into a college you wouldn't otherwise get into is a good sign that it's not the right place for you.

$6.5 million in bribes to get a child into college? They would have done better to send the kid to some school that would admit them, and give the rest of the money to pay the tuition of poor kids who are determined to learn no matter where they can go, whether it's Elite U or Local Community College. That would have gotten a much better return on the investment.

[3catwoman3]

16. "In fact, cheating to get into a college you wouldn't otherwise get into is a good sign...

Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:54 PM - Edit history (1)

...that it's not the right place for you."

Excellent point.

[leftieNanner]

31. And sometimes this is all about the parents' egos

"Oh, MY son was accepted to Harvard."

[jrthin]

36. The big secret is we live in a class society.

Graduating from an elite college gives you life long access to the movers and shakers and generally, if you are so inclined, an elite school graduate will end up in a "master of the universe" positions, i.e, CEO.

A University graduate ends up in upper management positions.
A State college graduate, upper and middle management positions
A City/local college graduate will end up in lower management positions.

The above is a broad generalizations, and depending and luck and inclination one can move above or below those strata, but that's the dirty secret.

If one is looking for learning any college will do, generally. If one is looking for social position the choice of college matters.

[Duppers]

47. Not just "Social position"

Grants and researching funding from federal agencies go to those schools. What if you had some cutting-edge provable research but you need support and money? Problem is your PhD is from a southern state school. You watch as other, much less important research receives funding. It happened and continues to happen.

It's not just social position, it's money for research and for higher salaries. We live in a stratified society where even federal agencies judge by pedigree. For the record, I'm a socialist but realistic one. My son worked hard for his admissions into schools that have given him an advantage; those admissions were achieved with grades and SAT scores, not bribes. I'm proud of both my guys.

[jrthin]

116. You should be darn proud of your two boys: they achieved their positions

in school through hard work and against the odds (lacking legacy and a fortune). Good on your boys and good on you, as a mother: you taught them ethics. Further, by your boys earning their education, they have healthy self esteem.

[Duppers]

121. "by ...earning their education, they have healthy self esteem."

Thank you!!
Exactly! They are not going thru life feeling like frauds, with all the accompanying mental disorders as Trump has.

Btw, my first example, about an excellent researcher being unable to get grant money because his PhD was from a southern state university, was my hubby. Hubby told our son of his plight and made sure he applied to some "elite" grad schools. He did and was admitted into two where his graduate assistantship paid the expensive tuition. (Btw, his SAT math score hit 800!) So far, our son has gotten every job he's applied for and on the spot too. It's the damn system: award the elite school grads.

I could tell you a longer decades-old story about my hubs taking some of his research up to a Havard researcher, in order to get his support, only to be told: "If we can't do this here at Harvard, what makes you think you can with your degree from ________ of _________ (southern state school)?' "
True story, I swear!
And so it goes.

Btw, hubs has a few gov't owned patents on that very research. Since he worked for the gov't, he, unfortunately for us, has seen very little monetary reward from those patents.

[jrthin]

124. RE your husband's experience, ugh! The wealthy keep saying the system is rigged;

they forget to finish the sentence and say, "the system is rigged in their favor."

In the end, try as they might, they can't keep a good man (in this case your husband) down. Congrats again, on a successful (in all the ways that truly matter) family.

[Duppers]

127. Thank you again.

🙏

[MaryMagdaline]

79. My cousin's husband went Wayne state law school in the 70s

Made partner in 2 years in major Detroit firm. His son, who went to Yale, can’t imagine how his father could have gotten so far since today, his father’s firm would not look at anyone from Wayne State. I had to explain how much more open things were back in the 70s. (I went to small southern law school/ had no trouble interviewing with big firms in Miami ... that was the 80s. Would not be so easy now).

[MaryMagdaline]

119. It really is!

[itsrobert]

128. University of American Somoa

Is where Saul Goodman got his degree.

[crazycatlady]

109. My sister went to an elite college

Recruiters were on campus during the lunch period recruiting students. If someone from State U applied to one of these firms, their resume would have gone straight to the shredder.

I had an interview with a well-known rental car company (who companies I've later worked for have rented cars from). I worked PT and had a babysitting job when I was in college, so I didn't have that 'college experience" full of clubs, parties, etc. I commuted and was only on campus for class as I was working the rest of the time (I did homework when the kids I babysat did. I did my reading as I was sitting through their music lessons). The first question I was asked was about my activities and experience while in college. When I explained that I worked FT hours and didn't spend time on campus outside of class, she looked at me like I had admitted to being a serial killer.

I ended the interview right then and there. I had never felt so belittled on a job interview before.

[jrthin]

117. Good for you; you know your worth! The "college experience" didn't

give you that, your hard work and making the best of your situation did!

[pnwmom]

67. Or, if they wanted to be selfish,

they could have sent their kid to a regular college, and put the rest of the money into a trust that would pay for their college, grad school, and a house. With the rest in a retirement fund.

There is no way anyone gets 6 million dollars worth of value out of going to Yale instead of U. Conn, or any other college.

[DBoon]

106. When you are that wealthy everything is about status

You wouldn't drive a used Toyota would you?

You wouldn't have your kid go to a state college would you?

The parents outsized drive for prestige and status made them wealthy. Their ability to view their children as status objects made going to an elite college a requirement.

[octoberlib]

8. This has been going on since there were elite colleges in the US.

How did Bush Jr. get into Yale and Harvard? He was a total fuckup.

[Duppers]

51. The Ivy Leagues are the worst, especially at the undergrad level.

Grad school differ by departments at these schools.

Do most people whose parents' wealth got them into these schools know that? A good many do. I'm sure Shrub and tRump knew and these hollow men have gone thru life trying to be something they are not.

[gldstwmn]

60. He was a legacy. n/t

[octoberlib]

78. Yeah, that's another problem. Why should anybody be accepted

to a competitive school just because their parents got in , when there are plenty of people who are smarter and harder working who could have filled that spot.

[gldstwmn]

131. Because they are private schools that make their own policies.

I'm not saying it's right. He just didn't bend any rules (probably the only time in his life).

[MaryMagdaline]

76. Funniest part is that UT wouldn't let Bush into law school

He had to go to Harvard for his MBA. guess Texas knows him better.

[crazycatlady]

110. And how did Trump and 4 of his kids get into UPenn?

[Adrahil]

9. So long as the daughter is doing okay at school..

I can't see any justification for kicking her out NOW. She didn't cheat.

[Pachamama]

10. She is a great kid - and sweet and smart and no attitude

That is what makes me so sick - she could have gotten in on her own. And they did this - why???

I right now care about her and hope she is okay. My daughter is there for her friend and just saw her and visited her at USC and seeing her soon at Spring Break.

Last week a young man in our area committed suicide. He was a student at Santa Barbara College. I am only thinking of the daughter right now.

[Adrahil]

13. Hopefully, this all works out for her.

[lunatica]

11. You might want to change the word doping to doing in you title!

Your iPhone or iPad are obviously choosing words for you!

[Adrahil]

12. OOPS! Thanks!

I'd like to blame Apple for that, but that was me fat-fingering it!

[lunatica]

26. Yeah, that happens to me all the time!

[Coventina]

14. This is why you should support your local community college.

No need to pay big bucks for a quality education!

It is right in your backyard for a fraction of the cost!

We are open access!!!

[Wednesdays]

35. And after graduation, you get exciting jobs where you say,

"Do you want fries with that?"

[Leith]

37. Uh, No

Have you ever looked at the Associate Degrees offered? Things like electrical, HVAC, medical, and computer fields where grads will find jobs with decent pay - and little or small student loans to pay.

It was just a little too *something* to say that the only jobs a 2 year degree will get you is at a fast food restaurant.

[Wednesdays]

39. Personal experience, plus what I witnessed among friends and family.

I fully expect ad hominem attacks in 3...2...1...

[Hekate]

73. My personal experience was v different.My friends with specific degrees went straight into careers

Three members of my family got their Electronics Certificates in the mid to late 1960s, and all have utilized them the rest of their lives. My sister took hers to UC Berkeley and entered the Engineering program. My Dad extended his career at Lockheed Aircraft with the new technology.

I knew girls in the Nursing program who went straight to work as RNs. A guy who came out of the Business program who was so rigorously trained in Accounting that the rest of his college career was no problem and likewise got his CPA. Cops, firefighters. It just went on and on. Some of the most spectacular students were older: men returning from Vietnam, women whose last kid was entering kindergarten.

I had been told "junior college" was just high school with ashtrays, but that was a lie. Students got out of it what they put in.

The person with no career at the end of two years was me: I was focused on transferring to a university, because I thought the pot of gold was at the end of a Bachelor's degree. But I didn't really have a plan beyond that -- unlike my more focused friends.

I have a PhD now. But I will never forget where I started: a completely affordable community college that offered education second to none.

[Coventina]

105. Study after study has shown that community colleges vastly benefit

their graduates and their communities.

Maybe your local college is a crappy outlier.

However, mountains of data show that your anecdotal experience is not the norm.

[Coventina]

38. Educate yourself. You have no idea what you are talking about. n/t

[Wednesdays]

40. See reply #39. nt

[essme]

41. I turned my community college associates

into double major at a university, and then to a dual masters.

I have less than half the student debt that people that went to the finer colleges have.

You sound as if you have never been to a community college, or local university that accepts credits.

[reACTIONary]

43. Definitely WAS NOT my experience....

... quite the opposite, I went from a fast food minimum wage job to a research laboratory at a decent salary.

[Progressive Law]

49. I graduated from a Comm. College, and I now advise clients whether they should take guilty pleas.

[shanti]

57. What about transfers?

That's what I did, and it saved me a hell of a lot of money. Money I didn't have as a single parent. I got my AA and transferred to the local Uni. I attended for a couple of years but sadly, circumstances precluded my graduation. It didn't matter though. My 21 year, well paying, career just required a certain number of units and I had plenty of them.

However, I don't imagine that the people involved in this issue were expecting their kids to actually have to WORK at a regular job after graduation.

[GaYellowDawg]

62. Really?

I teach at a community college. My students go on to nursing and allied health careers, for the most part. Others transfer to four year colleges and universities. I went to a community college myself, and ended up with a PhD from one of the top 15 public universities in the nation. I am the third generation in a row to get a doctorate, and both my father and I taught at a community college. My students do work those “fries with that” jobs while they’re taking classes, but they generally don’t afterwards.

I don’t think you know a thing about community colleges. Your attitude is elitist and arrogant, and springs from ignorance. The students in my classes come out knowing that anecdotes do not serve as evidence and are not generalizable. Perhaps you could use some community college education yourself.

[Renew Deal]

88. I know a former community college student that has a bachelors, two masters, and a doctorate

And an associates degree. Had to start somewhere.

[Inkfreak]

92. that is the same attitude these parents had.

Work and study ethic are not directly related to the name of the college. Your experiences with your friends and family would indicate they did not aspire to achieve much.

[Polybius]

95. Just get the associates degree there and then go to law school

You wound get picked as a federal judge, but you'll still make good money.

[TeamPooka]

123. I went to a community college back in CT and wound up a respected literary agent in Hollywood.

Swimming pools, movies stars.
If you need fries I'll be happy to buy some.

[Sherman A1]

17. I really don't feel sorry for any of them

I do for the students that played by the rules and got squeezed out by these shenanigans now or in the past, but I bet these Celeb Children and the other high rollers will do just fine.

[TheBlackAdder]

18. Lori Laughlin's supposed to be some holy roller. Her next series, she's in "Full Inda Big House!"

.

Check out the crazy 700 Club interview, where her husband is Mossimo and has a clothing line at Target.

http://www1.cbn.com/700club/actress-lori-loughlin-balancing-family-faith-and-career

.

[Cha]

69. That's what I always read.. and how does this..

compute with the "cheating scandal?

snip//

Lori: I do believe in God. I was raised Catholic.

Scott: Okay, how does that affect your choices in what you do?

Lori: For me personally, I was always very thoughtful about projects that I chose for myself. I would say to myself, “Can my father watch this?” If my father couldn’t watch it, I didn’t do it. And then when I had children … I always thought, I don’t want to do anything that one day might rear its ugly head and my children have to pay the price for that.

[Dave Starsky]

91. LOL. That's rich.

I didn't know her husband was the dude behind Mossimo. I was wondering how in the hell the drummer's girlfriend from Full House could afford that scam.

[Rustyeye77]

20. I think they want the best for their kids and they can afford it

this is no different than Legacy students, 400 ib tackles , Daddy warbucks who buys a building or some overseas kid whose parent can afford to pay cash upfront.

That's just the way it is

[reACTIONary]

44. very different...

.... paying for a building is not the moral equivalent of cheating on a test.

[Blue_Tires]

22. I still don't get it...

Why even go through this whole charade with a middleman charging a fortune for his "consulting services"?

Whatever happened to the ol' "Fat donation to the scholarship fund" or "Buying the football team a new weight room?" Because nobody *EVER* asks questions when their brats show up in freshman orientation...

[MaryMagdaline]

81. Because that's millions, not thousands

[rusty fender]

23. I didn't know that USC was

So hard to get into

[Ilsa]

32. It's a private Methodist university,

not like Ouachita Baptist University:
SAT reading and writing: 470-610
SAT math: 480-590
ACT Composite: 21-28

USC:
SAT reading and writing: 630-730
SAT math: 650-770
ACT Composite: 30-33

A degree from USC means something.

[Duppers]

48. Indeed, there are big differences

In admission standards.

👍

[WillowTree]

50. Well that's a little elitist, don't you think?

A degree from any accredited university means something. To say otherwise leaves pictures of someone looking down a very "special" nose at the rest of the world.

Just sayin'.

[Lefta Dissenter]

85. +1 n/t

[Ilsa]

104. See my reply to the post you replied to for clarification. NT

[Ilsa]

102. What I'm saying is that the parents

wanted to get their kids into an "elite" university. The parents know that the admissions requirements are different. They will get their kid tutoring if they are having difficulties, once they are in.

I think the students decide on how much they want to learn. But I suspect being in a classroom with students scoring in the 700s on SATs can raise the bar for excellence (or even passing) if you are looking to graduate with honors (unless a course is pass/fail).

If someone has a particular major requiring a license, such as nursing or engineering, they should definitely look at stats for licensure pass rates. For me, that is what can make a uni or program "elite", the testing after graduating.

[WillowTree]

54. And the more that I think about this whole thing, this makes that USC degree mean just a little less

[rusty fender]

70. Ok, but

when I took the SAT, you received a 500 score just for signing your name.

And OJ got his degree from USC despite barely being able to read and write.

It just doesn’t seem worth cheating to get into

[Ilsa]

103. No, it isn't worth cheating.

OJ played at USC in the 1960s, half a century ago. I have no idea what their admissions requirements were then.

[zaj]

27. Question: how does the kid not know?

Was she recruited as an athlete when so he wasn't?

[lostnfound]

45. For some of them it was fraudulent test scores, not athletics. Nt

[Pachamama]

98. The student didn't know - she had good (legit) scores and grades - but the parents paid to have

....this guy Singer and his key foundation send a fluffed file to an employee in the athletic dept, that the student was a better Volleyball player than she actually was and then got to enter a "side door" process known as the guaranteed admissions slots for student athlete recruits.

The daughter had no idea this was sent and part of her file. She never went to any Volleyball meetings or tryouts. All she ever saw was her admissions letter from USC. Never was required to be doing anything related to Volleyball. She had no idea. And she was a good student in high school and had good test scores and could have gotten in on her own qualifications. But her parents decided to "guarantee" that she got admitted. Neither parent went to USC and they weren't alumni.

[zaj]

108. Makes you wonder...

... it or how a Pac 12 athletic department completely missed that a women's volleyball player they expected to show up just never showed up.

That's a pretty sizable red flag inside a big time athletic program. In a sport that is pretty visible on college campuses.

Was the athletic director or other lower level staff looking the other way?

[Pachamama]

113. I think that we will be hearing more in future of big sweeping changes in how the admissions and

....athletic departments will be running and the role of "Student Athlete Recruit"....

The reality is that the coaches of many of the NCAA schools follow strict regulations and guidelines on recruiting and in general, most follow the rules. In the cases of the schools mentioned in the indictment, USC, Yale, Georgetown, Stanford, etc. had some rogue coaches and lower level "assistant" directors of programs who were taking bribes/kickbacks (illegal) to then put these kids in spots that should have gone to legitmately qualified student athletes.

The way these slots have been allocated in the past is that it was left to the discretion of those coaches and athletic program staff of who they awarded them to. My guess is that there will be an overhaul where any slots - if even allotted - will require a thorough audit of the students qualifications and them to "tryout" and demonstrate their skill in advance.

[FM123]

28. I feel for you Pachamama, seeing parents that you know...

Just seeing my sons' school name on the list makes my stomach hurt.

[cally]

42. The status of parents depends on where their kids go to school and what they do after

THe pressure on kids is insane from tutoring at a young age and continuing through high school, too many extra curricular, no time for relaxation and fun. Everything is geared toward college admission. It does not surprise me that some parents tried to cheat since I’ve seen many cheating for their kids at a young age. Parents write papers for their kids, do the science projects, send kids to very expensive sports camps, do their kids homework, and any other encourage kids sharing answers to tests. It’s hard to raise honest kids in this environment.

[napi21]

52. I didn't read the scandal. What makes this different than what Harvard, Yale, etc. grads

have done for decades? They even have a name for it...Legacy admissions.

[MissB]

55. This is actual fraud. As in... breaking federal laws.

[JDC]

56. Jared Kushner anyone? C student at best straight to Harvard.

Dad donated 2.5 million and bang: accepted

Just a different form of cheating your way in.

[MaryMagdaline]

82. But legal. School gets the money; school decides to let him in

[JDC]

83. Yes, there is a distinction.

The means are admittedly not the same. The spirit of money for admission however does feel to be in parallel

[MaryMagdaline]

84. Yes. And Jared is the poster child for inequality

[aikoaiko]

58. I have sympathy for the students who didn't know.

But for the sake of integrity of the admission processes at these colleges I think they all need to be expelled if the evidence shows more likely than not that deceit and fraud was involved.

[SweetieD]

59. I don't feel sympathy for any of these people. If your parents have that much money

You will be fine regardless. And honestly any kid whose parents cheated to get them in needs to kicked out. They can apply to a different school and retake the SAT test etc. and apply on merit.

[allgood33]

68. When privilege isn't enough... it's not easy being green ($$$$).

[pnwmom]

63. I feel bad for the students involved, most of whom apparently didn't know what their parents

were doing.

I don't think they should be penalized unless they were active participants in the scheme.

[obamanut2012]

94. agreed

[Hekate]

71. I'm so very sorry, Pachamama. When bad events hit close to home, it really hurts. nt

[DFW]

72. This kind of thing was sort of an open secret when I was in my senior year of high school

I was a one-year senior at the high school I graduated from. "Name" students (GW Bush, e.g.) breezed into wherever they wanted to go, and the rest of us peons had to get into schools on our own merits. While my two nephews did go to two of the schools mentioned in this scandal (Stanford and Georgetown), it was because, like their parents, they are at or near genius level.

I remember when my younger daughter applied to Law School in the USA. There were many English words on the LSAT that she didn't recognize, and even though she is mega-bright, her LSAT scores weren't especially high. Therefore, she was rejected by the "top" law schools she applied to, and went to a "second tier" law school. It didn't make her any less intelligent or hardworking.

Fast-forward twelve years, and she had graduated from her "second tier" law school, became the youngest partner ever (age 31) at one of the top international law firms based out of New York (she is in their German HQ), and dresses down snotty interns from the New York HQ with degrees from Harvard and Yale Law. They think that because they have those degrees, the world owes them a living.

She often has to call them into her office and berate them for leaving work early (they all seem to know when it's 4:59 PM), doing sloppy work, having poor grammar in their English, and worse grammar in their German. She says the interns sometimes leave her office in tears (she is the dragon lady), but it's their own damn fault for thinking all they have to do is flash their fancy diplomas, and everything else will magically fall into place. Maybe mommy and daddy greased their way into school, but it's a lot different when you're out there in the real world, working with people who busted their asses to get where they are.

I'm especially sorry for those students whose parents greased the way with money when they might well have made it on their own merits. That's not exactly a high vote of confidence from the parents. But when they find out (assuming they were in the dark, as, apparently some were), it has to be a blow to their self-esteem, knowing that their parents thought they might not be good enough to make it on their own.

[Tipperary]

115. Yikes, making employees leave the office in tears?

Sorry, not something to brag about.

[DFW]

133. Sorry, yes it is.

The competent ones who have a decent work ethic have no problems.

But the ones from the "name" schools, where they never should have gotten in to begin with, well some of them treat their posting to Germany as a sort of extended paid vacation. They came flashing their diplomas, figuring that was enough to let them off the hook while everyone else busted their hump to get the work done.

My daughter's projects are a team effort, and if some of the team figures they need not do anything because of their diplomas, the rest of the team has work doubly hard--not only to cover the work the interns SHOULD have done, but also to correct the mistakes in their half-assed work. That is arrogant, it is mean, and it is downright wrong. If they want an extended European vacation, let Daddy pay for four months on the Riviera or something. I say bravo for making them see reality in no uncertain terms. She probably did them a favor in the long run. Giving them a free ride will never teach them to develop a better work ethic down the road.

[MaryMagdaline]

74. I know. I felt bad for any kid who was reading this on her phone, finding out

Her life is a fraud and everyone on campus knows it.

[MaryMagdaline]

75. On the other side of the coin my very close friend's daughter wanted desperately to go to USC

And get on the crew team. She is a coxswain at her Florida school, has competed nationally and has an offer from Miami (Division 1A). She went for an unofficial visit to USC and was pretty much told “we’re not recruiting coxswains.” (Most schools would rather give scholarships to the rowers, which is a much more athletic position ... girls taller than 6’ etc). When she read that Loughlin’s daughter got “her place” she was upset that the whole thing was a sham. My friend was furious! She spent over a thousand dollars for the trip which could have been spent going to another school. My friend reported to all of us after visiting USC that there was a bad vibe there. Assistant coaches kept leaving and no one could explain why. When my friend’s circle of friends read the story, we all called and said “you were right about USC crew team ... something not right there.”


Thankfully, the daughter was accepted at an east coast top 25 school, not division 1A but great academics, so she is happy. She will be on crew but since not div 1A not as competitive and more emphasis on academics. Crew WAS the nudge that got her in. She has high 1300’s but crew coach really wanted a coxswain so they gave her legitimate support in the admissions process. This plus applying early decision got her in. BTW if she does not want to do crew later, she can drop out, but this is her joy in life.

It’s been an education finding out what kids go through to get into good schools.

[stonecutter357]

77. The parents and daughter knew what they were doing.

[Pachamama]

97. The parents knew....the daughter didn't in this case

If you read the entire indictment (I have) you will see there are varying degrees of the criminal bribery involved here. The most heinous being the payments made with full knowledge of the parents paying the bribe that it was to falsify test scores (changing answers) and having tests taken by another person.

In the particular case I am referring to who is my daughters childhood friend and I have known her and the family for 18 years, the parents are even in the transcript of wiretapped/recorded conversations stating that she doesn't know. In this case, the parents had Singer to fluff and exaggerate her athletic skills in Volleyball so she could slip in the side door of a slot reserved for "student athlete recruit". She did play Volleyball - just not at USC Division I level. She never was required to even appear for Volleyball team tryouts or the team. It was literally only that when it was sent to the school by Singer's operation, it got her that coveted student athlete slot that is a fast track and guarantee of getting in. Her grades and scores were excellent and she could have gotten in on her own. She didn't know her parents paid to do this or that it had been sent to the school. I am not excusing her parents - this makes me sick.

[Mike Nelson]

87. I'm sure...

… some of the kids knew and some of them didn't... this is shocking, but not so much when you think of the "legal" ways people with wealth get into the big universities... it's just another step in the cheating game. I would also add that it's not exclusive to the old time WASP crowd... if your parents have the $$$$$, you've got an "In".

[dlk]

89. We Live in a Status-Conscious Culture-It's Everywhere

Whether it’s designer’s names plastered everywhere on shoes and clothing up to (there really is no upper limit), America has become completely wrapped up in status. It’s all about the money.

[kskiska]

100. Didn't Ivanka just say the other day

that she thinks that Americans would rather "earn" things, rather than have them handed to them?

[vlyons]

101. You should feel sick. We should all feel sick.

It is a symptom of the moral degeneracy of our times. Our America has lost its way in the relentless craving for money and power. When our elected leaders get away with mass murder, lies, stealing, cheating, sexual misconduct, environmental degradation, while pretending to care and be concerned about us. It's more than enough to make us all puke.

[Pachamama]

114. +100000

I completely agree....this is really why I feel so sick and seeing that its a symptom of all around us and what is going on in our Country and society and culture.

[vlyons]

120. Even so ---

I'm a Buddhist. There is a Buddhist tradition that now, right now, we live in much predicted Degenerate Times, known as KaliYuga. It is the last phase of a long cycle that the world repeatedly cycles thru. The good news is that in such degenerate times the world is a target rich environment to practice compassion. It is much easier for us to achieve an enlightened state of mind by simply being a good, honest person with a kind and loving heart. In these Degenerate Times, how easy is it to stand out from the crowd by simply treating people with respect and dealing fairly with them? How easy is it to stand out from the crowd by simply maintaining a cheerful attititude, calming down stressed out people, and lending a ray of sunshine and an encouraging word to someone, who is depressed and in despair?

So even tho' we live in Degenerate Times, we all need to stay calm, speak the truth, remain high-minded, and stay focused on electing these corrupt assholes out of office. Nothing lasts forever, including these Degenerate Times. After KaliYuga, comes the next cycle, which begins with a Renaissance of some sort. We create the future in this moment right now. It's always now.

[kennetha]

126. I don't know any of them personally

But an awful LOT of them live near me! Ugh!

[MontanaMama]

129. What a disservice to these kids.

As a parent, nothing makes me happier than when my child accomplishes something on his own...whatever that is. From playing baseball, piano recitals and school grades. When he does something great by himself he just beams with pride. Cheating for your kid strips them of that pride of ownership and accomplishment. What a selfish thing to do. These parents stole what can be a wonderful part of these kids’ lives from them. At least it was stolen from the kids who give a crap about it. Loughlin’s daughter doesn’t sound like she appreciates being at school at all.

My kid is almost 14...we just registered for high school and during the process, I had to have several talks with myself about how much I would insert my opinion into his schedule and class choices. I want this to be his awesome experience, not a reflection of what I think would be an ideal high school experience. My job is to help him see his options, help him open doors for himself via making good choices...the rest is up to him. This applies to college too.

This whole thing is an unecessary tragedy.

[rainin]

130. Knowing what you know, do you think the kids should be allowed to stay?

[Pachamama]

134. Depends - Each University needs to review the circumstances

In the case of my daughters friend, she did not know the parents had done what they did. I do not think she should pay the price of being expelled because her parents are assholes and engaged in criminal behavior to which she wasn't an accessory to the crime.

Her parents had Singer send info in to Heinel at USC claiming that she had better skills in Volleyball than she actually did. Heinel used that info to put her in a "Student Athlete Recruit" slot. She did not know this had been even sent in for her file. She never had to tryout and never showed up for it because she never applied for it. She applied with excellent grades and excellent scores that were legitimate and not "pre-arranged" or falsified. She is meanwhile a good student.

In other cases listed in the indictments - the kids knew. And worse yet, many were involved in having their test scores falsified or even someone take the test for them. That is a whole other category of wrong.

[onecaliberal]

132. Having just gone through the college AP process with my son, I don't see how the kids

In the dark.