If the DOJ doesn't indict does this mean there's no double jeoprady clamp on New York State?

[eleny]

It just occurred to me that there could be a silver lining if the Fed doesn't take action against Trump or his kids. Wouldn't the state then be free to go after him on charges based on their own findings or what Mueller handed them?

Just asking.

Btw, when I learned the news this afternoon a sense of calm came over me. I'm feeling more peaceful now that Mueller's team has completed his work.

Whatever the results are on the federal level my sights are set on next November. Yeah, baby. It's blue tsunami time redux.

[UniteFightBack]

1. Well ain't this an interesting point. nt

[PatSeg]

2. Ah, good point!

[nuxvomica]

3. There's no double jeopardy between state and federal

It's called the "separate sovereigns" doctrine. So the state is free to go after them regardless.

[eleny]

5. So all that talk about it was a bunch of right wing spin

Knock me over with a feather!

[WhiteTara]

27. They weren't able to ram that through

though they did try.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Except that New York has a statute that's broader than the general rule,

so state prosecutors have to be very careful that there's no overlap. But if there are no indictments from Mueller there's no problem anyhow.

[dawg day]

16. Avoidance of state income tax is a state crime...

All that money laundering... did they pay tax on it?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. Most money launderers don't pay taxes on their laundered money.

The other thing the Trumps seem to have done, according to Michael Cohen, was substantially undervalue their properties for tax purposes (and overvalue it for insurance purposes). Whatever else you might have done, it's tough to escape the tax man. Just ask Al Capone.

[nuxvomica]

19. You're right

Here's an article on it I dug up:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/04/schneiderman-double-jeopardy/558389/

[OliverQ]

22. Not quite true.

New York actually has double jeopardy laws for State and Federal crimes, and there is a Supreme Court case on the docket addressing this issue nation wide that could very well remove the dual sovereignty principle.

[fescuerescue]

23. That may change very soon

Gamble VS US is a pending case that may unify jeopardy between Federal and State

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamble_v._United_States

[at140]

4. IDK if SDNY has the purview for Russia collusion

SDNY's indictments will be mainly based on crimes in NY state, is what I am thinking.

[eleny]

6. If the meeting at the Tower was all about conspiracy with Russia could that be a state crime?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. Don't get state crimes confused with federal crimes committed within a state.

SDNY would have jurisdiction over federal crimes committed in, or by residents of, the (federal) Southern District of New York. The state of New York, in this case by the Manhattan DA, would have jurisdiction over crimes that are violations of NY state statutes. If the Trump Tower meeting was a conspiracy to violate the laws of the United States, the feds would have exclusive jurisdiction.

[at140]

13. Good question and I can't answer..it is above my pay grade!

My best guess is there are enough financial wrong doings by the Trump businesses in NY state,
and when proven in court, could put lots of Trump associates and family in prison for substantial number of years.

[itsrobert]

7. That's enough

Could put Trump crime family away for a long time.

[Hoyt]

9. Assuming one believes a jury can be impaneled that doesn't include at least one

White Winger that will hang the jury.

[Quixote1818]

10. You are bringing up a very good point. Will keep my eye on this thread for some lawyers to chime in

[LonePirate]

11. Let's say NY indicts 45 and his brood.

He is not going to turn himself in to NY authorities and no one will extradite him (or allow him to be extradited such as the Secret Service). So then what?

Sure, the state could go after his kids; but so could have Mueller and he refused to do so today.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. The indictment would toll the statute of limitations,

and Spanky can't hang out in the White House forever. Once he's no longer president he's fair game, just like any other private citizen.

[uponit7771]

30. and then? The state of New York arrest him and puts him in jail?

[Quixote1818]

17. Wait until he is no longer President. I would assume they plan to do that anyways. nt

[eleny]

18. Then he could never step foot in New York

He'd be a fugitive.

[Quixote1818]

14. It would seem logical for Mueller to lay off if the real justice can take place at the state level

since they know Trump will do everything in his power to circumvent justice if there is a possible issue created from double jeopardy. I would think Mueller would have figured this out pretty fast if it is correct.

[eleny]

20. That's how I feel about Mueller

He's smarter than those advising Trump. Barr is cunning but Mueller is brilliant.

[dawnie51]

24. I'm glad I read this.....

I feel somewhat better. I'm a glass half empty kind of person, I guess.

[eleny]

25. Hang in there

None of this was going to be easy.

[FM123]

26. He & his family are on very thin ice in NY state, that may be exactly where they slip and go under

(Article from FiveThirtyEight)
"State prosecutors are especially tough on financial misconduct. Then there’s the fact that the offenses where Trump has the greatest potential liability in New York — for example, tax or other kinds of corporate fraud — are ones the New York attorney general’s office is particularly adept at handling. Over the past 15 years, New York has steadily stepped up its prosecutions of financial crimes. “Fraud cases are the linchpin of what most attorneys general do, and the laws are particularly strong in New York,” said Paul Nolette, a political science professor at Marquette University who studies state attorneys general."
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-one-of-trumps-biggest-legal-threats-is-new-yorks-attorney-general/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

28. Double jeopardy attaches after an acquital, not an indictment.

You can be plausibly indicted, have it dismissed, and have charges refiled again at a later date (provided it is still within the statute).

[exboyfil]

29. How does a B.S. preemptive pardon

Like Ford's for Nixon fit into it? I see some slick N.Y. Lawyer using that as the basis to quash any state indictments under N.Y.s statute.