General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe time has arrived for us to worry what might happen if we DON'T impeach the lunatic in the WH
instead of worrying what might happen in 2020 if we do impeach him.
If we don't impeach, it's like saying we admit that Trump is above the law. If we don't impeach, there are a lot of folks out there who might not realize just how guilty he is, folks who voted for him in 2016. If we don't impeach, we could very well lose our dignity as a Party, along with so much of the respect that we have been fighting so hard to keep for the last few decades.
We are not the ones who should be worried at all about impeachment. It's the republicans who are shitting their pants because any way you look at it, they are screwed. If Trump is impeached and the GOP in the Senate does not vote to remove him, it's the Republicans who stand to lose at the ballot box in 2020 because any law abiding Americans will lose any remaining respect that they had for those assholes to begin with. Rest assured that there are a lot of decent Americans who got fooled into voting for Trump in 2016. Through the impeachment hearings alone, those folks would see the light, they'll see the truth, and they will not be fooled again.
Don't forget. We have something called The Truth on our side. With the truth on our side, we can enter the impeachment process with confidence. In the dire situation our country is in, our forefathers would expect nothing less of us but to follow through with the Articles of Impeachment of the Constitution. They wrote those articles in there for a good reason. It was to protect this country from terribly sick lunatics just like Trump.
The only way we can lose is for us to look the other way and let him continue to run amok. It's time to put aside any remaining fears we might have about impeachment and boldy step up to the plate to go after Trump with a vengeance. And never look back. The truth is our friend, and what better way to get the truth out there than through impeachment hearings.
It's long past time to put any fears aside about what might happen if we do or if we don't. We simply need to do what our hearts are telling us to do. Impeach!
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)I think this assertion is fundamentally flawed. This isn't a binary argument. Continuing the investigations in and outside of Congress and exposing Trump, his dealings, his family, and his cronies in public hearings, for example, would not even remotely be the same as admitting he's above the law.
Just because every Dem isn't screaming "impeachment" from the rooftops doesn't mean we as a party condone his behavior.
honest.abe
(8,677 posts)Many wont pay attention. Hearings are like spanking a murderer. It might help a bit but we need an electric chair.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Hearings. Lots and lots of hearings. That's what impeachment is.
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon#Impeachment_hearings
I'm not sure why, but many people seem to be under the impression that hearings under impeachment will be radically different from public hearings held by Congress. This impression is false.
Will more people pay attention if the hearings are under the guise of impeachment? Perhaps, but the vast majority of people already know who Trump is, already know what he's done, and have made up their minds about how they feel about that. Some care, some don't, some know and support him anyway. If you're expecting impeachment to radically change the minds of a significant chunk of voters, you're going to be disappointed.
KPN
(15,642 posts)be arguing for and against impeachment. We should start impeachment hearings and hold them till the cows come home if necessary and in order to potentially implicate other GOP as colludeRs so stthey see the light and move to supporting rather than on obstructing it.
honest.abe
(8,677 posts)It will be radically different. News coverage will be intense and continuous. Much more information will come out and many more will be paying attention. Exactly what is needed,
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Under oath is under oath. Impeachment hearings are no different from other Congressional hearings in this regard.
Magoo48
(4,705 posts)Action on every front, all of the time, is the correct course. Make them lie, make them cheat, make them show themselves. Leave no corridors of relief open for them. And, always, always tie every Republican to 45s tail. They are one.
TheRealNorth
(9,478 posts)I agree - I think there is potentially more danger in not impeaching. But I think before we go to impeachment, we need the unredacted report (if possible) and we need to hear from Mueller. Barring any red lights from Mueller or the unredacted report should it be released to Congress, then you proceed to impeachment. The testimony from Mueller will be key because they story he tells will be instrumental in swaying the, "I don't want to hear about/tired of hearing about it crowd".
But we also have to have a unified message and drill that through the media.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Yes, it's important to learn everything possible that we can get from Mueller before we begin the proceedings.
KPN
(15,642 posts)as well, but that didnt cut the process short and succeeded in Rs eventually seeing the light. So I agree. We need to start the process, public fatigue orbit.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Thank you.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Get it done. Get everyone on record. It will not paralyze our government. We can walk and chew gum. We must stand for the rule of law.
Dan
(3,550 posts)Impeach or Not Impeach... Donald will go on the attack!
If you dont impeach - he will probably say it is because there is no truth to the Mueller report, and he will attack everyone/body that is not on his side. And probably a significant number of people that supported Trump are not going to change their view from Trump and will still vote for the GOP.
If you impeach - and he is not removed from the office because of the Senate, then the GOP Senate can explain why Trumps behavior is acceptable. And probably a significant number of people that supported Trump at not going to change their minds about Trump and will still vote for the GOP.
If you impeach and the Senate agrees to his removal due to the nature of his actions. It is still possible that a significant number of people that supported Trump are still going to support the next GOP candidates.
But one thing I do believe, regardless of what actions the Congress takes - Trump will go on the attack using the powers of the presidency to promote his agenda, protect his ass, disrupt the rule of law and keep his ass in power.
My opinion.
Buffalo Soldier
(78 posts)But one thing I do believe, regardless of what actions the Congress takes - Trump will go on the attack using the powers of the presidency to promote his agenda, protect his ass, disrupt the rule of law and keep his ass in power.
I agree...he will use the full force of Article 2
bdamomma
(63,836 posts)are militias on the Southern border now interfering with Border Police. Going after migrants. This is not good. We have concentration camps holding migrant children and babies. This is not normal.
Stephen Miller is a sick bastard.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Our cowering in the corner in the fetal position isn't going to make Public Enemy #1 stop yelling at us.
DoctorJoJo
(1,134 posts)Not sure that turd could carry Indiana!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Then nancy is President...
world wide wally
(21,740 posts)If we don't impeach, how many voters will we lose because they see us as spineless cowards.
I would rather have the GOP mad at me personally.
babylonsister
(171,056 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Impeachment is a duty, not an optional choice.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
That pesky word "shall", is written into the Constitution 319 times. It removes all doubt about what the Framers intended; its an imperative command; a duty to, or is required to.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)There will be no conviction, making the "shall" irrelevant. Context is important and the context makes the "shall" meaningless.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)If you don't believe that a ton of good will come from the impeachment hearings alone, regardless of conviction, then you might be missing the boat.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)the continued investigations, public hearings, and continued pressure by Democratic leadership would.
It's largely the same process. It makes more sense to gather the evidence first, in my opinion, though you would seem to disagree.
The key point, of course, is that impeachment will fail at removal and arguably provide Trump with political cover after he's acquitted. Regardless of your confident assertion, you really don't know any more about what that will mean in the long term, especially politically, than anyone else does.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)that conviction will fail, and the fact that you are so sure that impeachment hearings will do no good, makes me more than a little bit curious.
BTW, how is it that you are 100% sure that conviction will fail? Six months from now, the entire atmosphere among the corrupt GOP'ers might no be the same as it is today, especially when they realize that their re-election chances are slowly going down the drain? How do you know that by the time the impeachment hearings are over that a number of the assholes in the GOP might not change their minds about Trump, once they realize that they will likely get their asses kicked at the ballot box in 2020 if they support him?
Just like I don't know what might happen in the long term, you for sure don't know either. While I do realize that conviction is a long shot, I also know that most Democrats aren't scared shitless about the thought that the Senate won't have enough votes to convict.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Support for impeachment among Dems is 67%, according to a poll released today. It's actually down double-digits since late last year, which is a bit perplexing. It will likely rise now, but it's also not the 90% some are claiming elsewhere.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Google it.
procon
(15,805 posts)The House begins the impeachment process by charging the president with a list of his high crimes and misdemeanors, offences against the government, and thereby the people of the US. The evidence is publicly presented with witnesses and documentation as part of the House's duty to conduct investigations and oversight.
That process of public exposure of each of Trump's crimes as he assaulted the rule of law and weakened our government, builds the foundation for the trial in the Senate. As each Article of Impeachment is discussed and voted on, Trump's illegal behavior is presented to the court of public opinion.
Exposing Trumps crimes to public scrutiny is the goal. The House investigation will replay 24/7 on every news channel, and like Clinton's Impeachment the entire country will be rivited to the daily episode. Like the charges against Clinton, Trump's Impeachment will refer to a string of women and salcious sex for money, but more importantly, it will show that Trump set himself above the law and engaged in actions that border on treason.
Evolve Dammit
(16,723 posts)it is the constitutional responsibility of Congress to Impeach. It will not be easy, but as the process unfolds, his actions will be under intense scrutiny which is sorely needed. He had almost 2 1/2 years and we can expect rage, doubling down, punching back and whatever his base is inclined to do. It will not be easy or pretty. But the more people see, the more obvious it will become, that he is UNFIT for office. It's time to restore credibility and make him accountable. Mueller did a yeoman job, and we owe him and his team acknowledgment that the work will be carried forward. Barr may inhibit all the other federal cases, making this even more urgent.
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)if we are not filling the bandwidth with impeachment? If we are not giving the media the shiny object they crave?
Can you imagine what trump would SAY and do if he thinks he skated on all accountability????
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)CTAtheist
(88 posts)He was, and that's not something you go merrily into re-election with. Clinton didn't have to, since he served 2 terms already. Ask yourself if that happened in the 1st, if he would have won the 2nd.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)impeachment in your life (non political folks)..what about people at work? I personally have not had one person mention anything about this report at all and by proxy impeachment.
bdamomma
(63,836 posts)crime is not even close to what tRump has done. He's a thug, who did "F up".
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)That's Warren's opinion. It appears to be Rachel's. It is certainly mine.
bdamomma
(63,836 posts)trump has even read the report????? Calling it BS. He's not well mentally.
And I wouldn't put it pass him to do a lot more damage to our country and to Americans.
patphil
(6,169 posts)Remember, all the House hearings will be public. It means the truth will be put out there for everyone to see and hear.
Yes, it will take a lot of time, but to not start now makes it less likely the process will ever start.
IF the Democrats let this slide, they might as well kiss the 2020 elections goodbye.
They would loose face with the American Public, and would be telling the country that what Trump did was not all that bad; not worthy of the time and effort.
What Trump did dragged the office of the president through the mud. He dishonored his office, and demonstrated a flagrant disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law.
This is worse than Watergate, worse than Lewinskigate. If the multiple counts of Obstruction of Justice laid out in the Mueller report does not constitute an impeachable act, then I don't know what would be.
Patrick Phillips
MasonDreams
(756 posts)Force rebukes to vote for this criminal, then rub it in their faces.
CaptainTruth
(6,588 posts)If y'all folks can convince me that impeaching Trump (which will not send Trump to jail, he'll be promptly pardoned by president Mike Pence) helps us win big in 2020, go for it. I'm all ears.
Convince me the GOP will NOT beat Democrats bloody with the "impeachment" stick. Convince me they WON'T launch a massive fundraising blitz to "defend Donald Trump against Democrat attacks!" Convince me the GOP WON'T use impeachment to whip their base into a rabid frenzy.that makes them turn out to vote in record numbers.
Convince me impeachment won't hurt our chances of big wins in 2020 ... Please.
procon
(15,805 posts)fight unbloodied. Yes, we will face unprecedented obstruction from the GOP, but that is the standard we have lived with for years, and nonetheless we endured and even reclaimed the House.
Trump is not a popular president, he's never ever hit the 50% approval mark. Sure, Republicans abide him, but the majority of Americans loathes him. The world, with the exception of a hand full of infamous dictators, finds him a disgusting pig. What is revealed in the Impeachment proceedings will not make him more likable.
The charges presented as Articles of Impeachment against Trump will be based on the evidence his actual illegal and criminal behaviors, not just a titillating sexcapade. Will the evidence presented create a public outrage that excoriates Trump and weakens his standing?
Whether or not the Republicans in the Senate rise to follow their Constitutional oaths, the Articles of Impeachment passed by House Democrats will stand.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)better
(884 posts)First, you assume that starting impeachment proceedings necessarily results in a vote on Articles of Impeachment, in time for Pence to ride to the rescue. It does not. It's quite reasonable to assume that a proper investigation into matters as plentiful and of as broad a scope as are relevant here will last all the way up to the election.
And second, you are evaluating the decision of whether or not to begin impeachment proceedings at least in part on the basis of whether or not the GOP will use that particular stick to beat us bloody.
We need to all recognize that even above and beyond securing handouts for the rich, the GOP exists for the primary purpose of beating Democrats bloody. The idea that we can avoid them trying to beat us bloody by not wielding the strongest stick we have available is sheer idiocy.
I urge you to take a good hard long look at the frustration among our base, spanning decades now, with us not fighting with every weapon at our disposal. Now, here, we are faced with a situation in which the Constitution itself very clearly dictates that impeachment is the appropriate remedy. Quite simply, your fear is on the wrong side of this equation, and you should expect that the consequences of not proceeding with impeachment in the face of such overwhelming evidence of it being appropriate, will be far worse than the consequences of us doing our part and being stymied by Republicans being Republicans.
Steven Maurer
(459 posts)And in this case, Congress is wisely deciding that the public should be the ones to hold not just Trump - but all of his enablers - to account.
Impeachment won't do that. Does anyone here really want to see "President Pence"?!?
democrank
(11,092 posts)Let the hearings begin. Let the truth come out. Let Trumps unprincipled enablers explain why it was a good idea to assist in the destruction of everything we stand for. And....let it be on the record. Let it become history, actual words their grandchildren can read some day. Let them raise their right hands and swear to tell the truth while the rest of America watches.
We can not allow this criminal enterprise to get away with what they have done to this country. We must rise up and stand for something, not cower behind the worry about the next election.
Donald Trump is a traitor to his country. Begin impeachment proceedings.
meadowlander
(4,394 posts)DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Although I would not go after Trump with a vengeance. It needs to be dignified and just the facts.
If what has happened according to the Mueller report does not rise to the level of Impeachment then what does and what oversight on the executive is left.
We must move forward, and not duck from impeachment, unless the evidence shows there was no obstruction (ha ha). It is necessary to establish a robust separation of powers and that the rule of law matters greatly. That is what is at stake. If the evidence ends up not being substantial enough for removal from office, so be it. If the individual members of Congress make a bad judgement based on politics rather than facts then it is up to the voters to determine their fate. Many would survive, I'm sure. The power is in the hands of the people.
A televised proceeding, including on Fox, would show who the liars really are and only in this manner can we have an informed public. Armed with that the public can decide. Some would still decide wrongly but that happens in a Democratic Republic. We badly need a cleansing and get back to operating within the parameters of the law. If we don't do this I don't see a way forward - not with the level of distrust that is in the air.
triron
(21,999 posts)candidate. As long as you win you can do anything even commit treason.
coti
(4,612 posts)The stupid DoJ policy has left us with nothing except impeachment with which to defend our democracy. We have to do something to show ourselves, our country, the world, that the integrity of our democracy matters. I'm not sure that we even have a whole lot of choice in this. And, yes, having the truth on our side makes a huge difference.
I don't expect we'll be successful in removing him from office. But I do expect that the process itself, the process of finding the truth and exposing it, will go a long way toward re-affirming our democratic values and the idea of truth itself.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)Tonight I had dinner, included were the FiL and BiL, both hardcore repubs. tRump came up at the end, BiL in law tried to claim that the Mueller report HAD to go to Barr and he HAD to review it and summarize because of a law written after the Whitewater report. (See how they do that, spin it to a Dem problem, Dems made them do it!)
I said no, SiL asked why did Barr do it?, I told them because he is crooked and trying to protect tRump. Bil went to his phone, Fil admitted Barr is acting crooked, SiL states, "when he said I'm fucked it convinced her.
FiL looked sick, BiL had no fight. So three tRump voters, one admits he is guilty, other has no defense, one goes with the bullshit he sees on Drudge.
tRump needs to be called out, make his supporters defend him.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)to the Mueller Report.
If you get time, you should consider doing that one as an original post in a separate thread. I think a lot of people here on DU can relate to it, and with families getting together for the Easter weekend, I'm sure there would be lots of other similarly interesting accounts. Thanks for posting that here.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)DinahMoeHum
(21,783 posts). . .The. GOP. Must. Be. Destroyed.
If we cannot get conviction by the Senate after impeachment by the House. . .
. . .then all of us must work to ensure the complete and utter destruction of the GOP. At EVERY level. By any and all means necessary.
22 GOP Senators are up for re-election in 2020. Just sayin'.
watoos
(7,142 posts)If we choose to not impeach we will never see Mueller's grand jury evidence. All of the juicy information is in that grand jury testimonies. Take this prediction to the bank, Barr will never release Mueller's grand jury information unless we impeach. Barr has stated that he will release the grand jury info for impeachment. Barr will fight the subpoenas in the courts until it gets close to the election. Then Barr will call for investigations of the FBI and Democrats who carried out a witch hunt against Donald Trump. Barr is going to investigate Hillary Clinton again and Trump is going to put Hillary on the 2020 ballot.
We sit back and don't impeach at our own peril. Drastic times call for drastic measures.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Rachel Maddow was discussing this yesterday. Almost all of the Trump situations / transgressions / potential criminal involvements that Muller investigated occurred in 2017. The statute of limitations on these events lapses in five years 2022.
If impeachment is not pursued now, and if, for some extraordinarily crooked reason, Trump should retain the presidency, he will run out the calendar on the investigated incidents (which comprise the basis for impeachment), and he would, effective 2022, become a free man. (Not factoring in the New York State investigations.)
Using the frustrating Mueller guideline that one cannot indict a sitting president, should Trump lose the 2020 election and become a private citizen in January, 2021, he can still be prosecuted for whats already on the books.
Think Trump wants to stay in office much? He will fight like a cornered animal, because losing could mean a trip to prison.
Start impeachment proceedings immediately. Chasten that bastard NOW. No conviction possible? Screw it, thats not the goal, which is to keep him on the defensive, put him under stress and pressure from multiple directions to exhaust that monster, and have his approval ratings tank lower than ever. If his people and Russia conspire again to throw the election, America will be screwed beyond recognition...forever.
Impeach now. Its not a sure thing, but its the right thing to do. And I seriously doubt that itd hand the election over to Trump. That notion presupposes that there are scads of Trump voters out there who are considering voting for a Democratic candidate. Thats such a bullshit line as if those who worship their white-nationalist Neanderthal figurehead could be lured away from their fuhrer.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)..the Democrats are aggressive and demanding.
Response to mtnsnake (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
FrankTC
(210 posts)Based on facts in evidence, I think Trump should be impeached already. Articles drawn up, debated, and voted out by the House. I don't greatly mind if there's hearings with witnesses and testimony in order to shore up the case, though I am doubtful about the goal that is often expressed -- educating the public. There are vast swaths of the public that don't care to be educated. That is, I'm not inclined to agree with this part of the OP:
If Trump is impeached and the GOP in the Senate does not vote to remove him, it's the Republicans who stand to lose at the ballot box in 2020 because any law abiding Americans will lose any remaining respect that they had for those assholes to begin with. Rest assured that there are a lot of decent Americans who got fooled into voting for Trump in 2016. Through the impeachment hearings alone, those folks would see the light, they'll see the truth, and they will not be fooled again.
I don't think any, much less many, decent Americans voted for Trump in 2016. In voting for Trump you turned in your decency card. And if after two years you are still a Trump supporter, you are a card-carrying degenerate. I think it's a delusion to believe that hearings and witnesses and testimonies will reach these people -- or at least requires a wealth of optimism that I don't possess.
Impeach him if possible, but don't count on enlightening the third of the country that are no more capable of political participation than a bag of crankshafts.
proud patriot
(100,705 posts)Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)And the Republicans are enabling it
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Let us not make that mistake ever again. Bush, Cheney and Co. should have been kicked out of office and locked up.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Resist the beginnings and Consider the end. But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.
"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, Its not so bad or Youre seeing things or Youre an alarmist.
https://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
pangaia
(24,324 posts)for nonresistance to the deadlier.