Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

dajoki

(10,678 posts)
Thu May 2, 2019, 10:04 AM May 2019

This Loophole in Federal Law May Have Saved Trump Campaign from Conspiracy Charges

This Loophole in Federal Law May Have Saved Trump Campaign from Conspiracy Charges
https://www.newsweek.com/mueller-report-trump-conspiracy-charges-loophole-technicality-1409735

At the heart of the Mueller Report is a law enforcement dilemma that no one seems to have noticed.
The Report suggests to me that the reason no one in the Trump campaign was charged with conspiracy is because our federal criminal laws cannot deal with a high tech crime like the staged release of the documents the Russians hacked from the Democratic National Committee in Washington, D.C.

The Mueller Report acknowledges in footnote 1278 on page 176 that it could not prosecute anyone from the Trump campaign for the release of the documents stolen from the Democratic National Committee because the federal criminal code does not outlaw trafficking in stolen computer data. This footnote, which appears to be right in the middle of a discussion on Roger Stone and the staged release of the stolen data, states that “the post-hacking sharing and dissemination of emails could constitute trafficking in or receipt of stolen property,” but for the fact that the relevant federal criminal statute on trafficking in stolen property does not apply to intangible property, namely computer data. In other words, but for our antiquated federal criminal law, members of the Trump campaign might well have been indicted for conspiracy to traffic in stolen property.

<<snip>>

The Mueller Report also reveals that our new high tech global world made it far more difficult to investigate the involvement of the Trump campaign in the staged release of the stolen data than it was to investigate the Nixon campaign’s involvement in the Watergate break-in. For example, the Mueller Report acknowledges that its investigators were unable to uncover communications between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians because of the use of “applications that feature encryption or do not provide for long-term retention of data or communication records.” The Report acknowledges that this technological barrier meant that the special counsel “was not able to corroborate witness statements” or to “fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.” In Watergate we had no such constraints and were able to gather evidence the old fashion way through paper documents, such as telephone records that reflected connections between and among suspected conspirators and where people were located at any given time.

That problem coupled with the fact that the special counsel “faced practical limits on its ability to access relevant evidence” with “numerous witnesses and subjects” living abroad. The hacking was perpetrated by Russians located in Russia, and the stolen documents were released into the United States by Wikileaks from another location outside the U.S. That was not a problem in Watergate. Everyone involved lived in the territorial United States. The burglars and those who organized the burglary were all Americans and physically perpetrated their crime in Washington, D.C. All relevant witnesses were subject to subpoena power and the jurisdiction of the U.S. Courts.

In the final analysis, Trump’s claim that he and his campaign were exonerated from a conspiracy charge rings hollow when the reason Mueller did not charge anyone in the Trump campaign with conspiracy boiled down to the technicality that the campaign was trafficking in stolen computer data as opposed to tangible paper documents. This technicality can easily be remedied by Congress. New York State, for example, makes it a felony to possess stolen computer data. Federal criminal law does not. Congress needs to deal with making it easier for law enforcement to investigate high tech crimes in our new global order.

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
This Loophole in Federal Law May Have Saved Trump Campaign from Conspiracy Charges (Original Post) dajoki May 2019 OP
If Anything, Trump has Taught Federal Laws are Sorely Antiquated and Behind the Times dlk May 2019 #1
So someone can hack CC numbers, give them to someone else and the person who gets them can ... uponit7771 May 2019 #2
Not an equivalent situation, it's more like this ... mr_lebowski May 2019 #7
In this case Bob ... KNEW ... the numbers were stolen or should have known. Wouldn't that be uponit7771 May 2019 #8
Apparently federal law doesn't make that level of involvement illegal, that's Mueller's point ... mr_lebowski May 2019 #10
Hmmmm, I'm thinking that's another question for Mueller. Aiding and abetting seems slam dunk.... uponit7771 May 2019 #11
CC numbers may have a certain legal imprimatur that the banks insisted on specific laws being mr_lebowski May 2019 #12
Yes, the aiding and abetting is Frank (Trump) encouraging Bill (the Russians) to hack that's what uponit7771 May 2019 #13
In the scenario I described, Bill has already stolen your email to Aunt Bee ... mr_lebowski May 2019 #14
Ah, if Bill already stole the email No. but in scenario with Russia they attempted the hack after uponit7771 May 2019 #15
That's really not an accurate timeline of events. mr_lebowski May 2019 #16
Then that's still aiding and abetting, it doesn't matter if it was an on going crime to encourage... uponit7771 May 2019 #17
aren't there ways to get deleted or encrypted messages NewJeffCT May 2019 #3
I thought there was but maybe I'm wrong n/t dajoki May 2019 #4
Several years back NewJeffCT May 2019 #5
May or may not be physically possible ... mr_lebowski May 2019 #9
K & R MFGsunny May 2019 #6

dlk

(11,537 posts)
1. If Anything, Trump has Taught Federal Laws are Sorely Antiquated and Behind the Times
Thu May 2, 2019, 10:08 AM
May 2019

Computer crimes, nepotism, emoluments crimes... There is much work to be done.

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
2. So someone can hack CC numbers, give them to someone else and the person who gets them can ...
Thu May 2, 2019, 10:10 AM
May 2019

... use them without negative recourse?

No, ... not at all

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
7. Not an equivalent situation, it's more like this ...
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:25 PM
May 2019

Bill steals CC numbers.
Bob says 'Hey, Bill, you should give 'em to Steve!'.
Steve is found in possession of stolen CC numbers.

Bob, under Federal Statutes, isn't going to jail.

Bill would. Steve probably would. Bob would skate. And Bob's employer ... even more so.

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
8. In this case Bob ... KNEW ... the numbers were stolen or should have known. Wouldn't that be
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:29 PM
May 2019

... aiding and abetting or accessory after the fact?

tia

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
10. Apparently federal law doesn't make that level of involvement illegal, that's Mueller's point ...
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:35 PM
May 2019

Per the article. Physical stolen goods, yes. Stolen electronic data, no.

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
11. Hmmmm, I'm thinking that's another question for Mueller. Aiding and abetting seems slam dunk....
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:40 PM
May 2019

... and letting people who do so when it comes to CC numbers seems like its wide open.

I don't see a regular person doing what Bob did in this hypothetical being let go

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
12. CC numbers may have a certain legal imprimatur that the banks insisted on specific laws being
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:59 PM
May 2019

created for to protect ... that 'docs from the DNC' would not have.

Here's a much more equivalent situation:
Bill hacks into Gmail and steal's uponit7771's Letter to Aunt Bee
Bob's long-time friend, Frank, tells Bob he should tell Bill that Bill should post uponit7771's Letter to Aunt Bee, on Instagram
Bob says 'Hey Bill, I hear you have uponit7771's Letter to Aunt Bee, you should post it on Instagram!'
Bill posts your email to Aunt Bee on Instagram

So ... Trump is Frank in this situation, obviously ... you think Frank's going to jail for this?

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
13. Yes, the aiding and abetting is Frank (Trump) encouraging Bill (the Russians) to hack that's what
Thu May 2, 2019, 01:07 PM
May 2019

... the aiding and abetting would be and the accessory after the fact is lying for the Russians.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
14. In the scenario I described, Bill has already stolen your email to Aunt Bee ...
Thu May 2, 2019, 01:12 PM
May 2019

To the best of anyone's knowledge, neither Bob nor Frank encouraged Bill to steal your email, only that Bob, with the encouragement of Frank, encouraged Bill to post your email to Aunt Bee to Instagram, AFTER becoming aware that Bill was in possession thereof.

So I ask you again ... you think ANY prosecutor is going after Frank ... in that situation?

I don't. I don't even think they're going after Bob ... unless Bob lied to investigators, in which case he's in trouble for lying. Not for encouraging Bill to do what he did.

Bill, in fact, is the one who's done the criminal shit. And Instagram, if they knew Bill stole your email and posted it anyway.

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
15. Ah, if Bill already stole the email No. but in scenario with Russia they attempted the hack after
Thu May 2, 2019, 01:22 PM
May 2019

.. after Red Don's invite IINM, 5 hours later after the invite.

Then after the Russians attempted the hack Red Don's crew was coordinating the discrimination of the hacked emails with wikileaks.

But all of this started or continued with Red Don's invitation and encouragement to commit the crime of hacking into emails.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
16. That's really not an accurate timeline of events.
Thu May 2, 2019, 01:32 PM
May 2019

If it were, you'd have a point.

The DNC-hacked stuff, their docs & emails, plus Podesta's emails, were already stolen by Russia, BEFORE the Trump Tower meeting in June 2016. In fact the DNC stuff was already stolen before Papadopolous was told about 'the dirt', which was I believe April of 2016.

The stolen DNC docs began to be released by DCLeaks (run by Guccifer 2.0) in late June 2016, and then Wikileaks began releasing them in July 2016 (after having received them from Guccifer).

But the infamous invitation by Trump to 'find Hillary's Emails' occurred in August 2016. The whole reason it 'came up' was because of what was already going on with Wikileaks releasing stolen emails from the DNC, and people already suspecting Russia was behind the theft.

And there's no evidence the 'hacking' that Trump encouraged ... produced anything of value, it was just an attempt at hacking.

uponit7771

(90,323 posts)
17. Then that's still aiding and abetting, it doesn't matter if it was an on going crime to encourage...
Thu May 2, 2019, 05:54 PM
May 2019

... more of the crime is aiding and abetting and that's illegal.

Then they were accessories after the fact by helping the narrative from Russia that it wasn't them etc

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
5. Several years back
Thu May 2, 2019, 10:50 AM
May 2019

my daughter was a victim of some online bullying and we were told that the only way deleted messages could be retrieved is if the police had a court order to retrieve them from whatever online social media app it was (Instagram, Snapchat?)

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
9. May or may not be physically possible ...
Thu May 2, 2019, 12:33 PM
May 2019

Depends on how the 'host' of the data ... handles the information.

It's unlikely that if the situation were of the utmost importance to national security that an NSA-type agency wouldn't be able to retrieve the information (that would only be true if the physical drives that at one point held the information were thoroughly destroyed, AND the NSA didn't at some point capture and store the information itself while it traveled across the intertubes), but it could take a while for it (days to month's I'd guess) for it to be decrypted IF the only available copy was an encrypted one, esp. if using high-level encryption.

But Mueller wouldn't have had NSA-level resources available, one would assume.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»This Loophole in Federal ...