Black women are tired of explaining to white women why they should care about everyone's interest

[EffieBlack]

not just what they think of as their own and then, after they ignore us for the unpteenth time and the people they put into office (even though we begged them not to) trample all over them (and us), we have to listen to them carry on about how victimized they are and how WE must all wake up and do something about it because OMG! LOOK at how it's affecting THEM (when the black WEs and plenty of our white female sisters have been working our asses off to do something about it all along).

When will these women finally get it through their heads that they must look beyond the narrow self-interests they think are enough to sustain and protect them and start caring about people other than themselves?

When will they start voting as if it matters to them that poor or minority or immigrant women aren't marginalized and abused by the people they keep supporting because tax cuts or property taxes or school vouchers or Hillary's emails or hair or ambition or something - only to find that those same people have no qualms about turning on THEM, too?

When will they start listening to and working with black women BEFORE they get smacked upside the head with the white male fundamentalist 2 x 4 they thought of other people were going to be subjected to?

Maybe now that they see what's happening in Alabama and Georgia and Ohio and elsewhere, they'll wake up and get with the program.

But I thought that every other time we've had a wave of this kind of anti-woman legislation. But every time, the minute the controversy dies down, my hopes are crushed as I watch these very same supposedly newly-woke women turn away and line right back up again with and stand behind the men who are doing this to us - and give them the votes they need to keep on doing it.

So, I don't have much hope - but I'll still keep trying because that's what we do.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. They will do so only when they confront, wrestle with and dismantle their own inherent racism, which

tells them lies about how aligning themselves with white men will save them in the end. Only when they understand that their own status is a lagging indicator, and that black women are leading indicators. Only when they understand that their whiteness -- a construct in itself -- will not protect them. That's all, but it's a big one.

[EffieBlack]

2. "That's all, but it's a big one"

In a nutshell.

[pazzyanne]

13. Conservative white women like having a man in their lives,

who makes all of their decisions and takes care of them. They look down on independent women and the men who support them. There is no more biased group for women than white conservative women, and they do not care who knows it. I do not think that they will ever face their own inherent racism and misogyny.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. Could be.

All I know is that white women on the left are equally as terrible when it comes to race issues, especially in activist spaces.

[EffieBlack]

16. This isn't the fault only of white conservative women

Liberal/progressive women are often just as bad and sometimes worse.

And their culpability is compounded by their certainty that they have no culpability and their quickness to point the finger at "others" when they should be checking their own attitudes and behaviors.

[pazzyanne]

22. Sorry, EffieBlack. My post is based on personal experience.

I lived in an evangelical community as a white woman. I have been put down numerous times over the years as a single, white, independent, professional woman. Many times the putdowns have come from so called friends. I am not dissing what you have been saying, but adding my experiences as a now 75 year old white, liberal female. My apologies if what I shared is offensive. It is my experience.

[DownriverDem]

26. I'm a liberal white woman

who likes having my husband by my side.

[pazzyanne]

33. By your side.

Does he take over and run your life for you? My guess would be he doesn't.

[Ohiogal]

3. Please don't lump us all together in this regard!

Granted, there are enough white women (especially older) who are selfish, short-sighted bigots. But there are many of us out there like me who are the exact opposite. The ones like me donate to PP, vote Democratic, write letters to our lawmakers, and participate in Women’s Marches. I saw plenty of white women in the last couple of Women’s Marches.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. If the OP isn't about you, it isn't about you. But there is definitely a problem with white women.

The majority of white women voters have gone for the Republican presidential candidate in every election since 1964. It's hard for white women to confront their inherent racism, because white hegemony benefits them in a lot of ways -- who wants to give up their white privilege? The problem is, many white women don't even want to leverage their white privilege, much less dismantle it -- and I include Democrats, liberals and other people who would describe themselves as allies in that statement.

ETA: I encourage you to rethink your use of "not all..." and determine why you feel the need to tell people that the OP doesn't apply to you.

[EffieBlack]

5. If you read my post, you will see that I didn't lump all white women together

And it you're not doing what I'm describing, I wasn't talking about you.

[ismnotwasm]

17. You shouldn't have to explain this, and I'm sorry

White women right now have more privilege than anytime in history, (or they DID, we will all pay the price for white Tea partiers and abortion) Over half of White women who voted, voted for Trump, whereas NINETYFOUR percent of Black women who voted voted for Hillary. (That’s not so say there isn’t one hell of a lot of work to be done for women’s rights)

This statistic has always astonished me. I will tell you this. I will do my best to be an ally, I follow trends, and quite frankly I will be informed and influenced by the opinions of Black women. You owe me nothing, but you mean everything.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/5/2/18525536/women-of-color-voters-2020-outreach-policy-democrats

[BlancheSplanchnik]

78. 👏🏾

Eloquent.

[mcar]

74. #NotAllWhiteWomen

[michello]

6. She clearly states

In the op that some white women are allies.

[brush]

8. We need more of this. Pls keep fighting.

[qazplm135]

9. Sigh

#notallwhitewomen.

There, happy?

[EffieBlack]

10. Interesting, isn't it?

Why is it that ONLY when someone refers to white people do we get warnings not to "lump" everyone in together followed by a litany of what one or more particular white persons are doing that supposedly proved the exception? I don't see this happen - here or elsewhere - in connection with references to any other group. for example, we talk about "Republicans" all the time. But we aren't subjected to reminders that not ALL Republicans do such and so, as evidenced by some Republican doing a good or noble thing.

The same goes for men, women (when they're not identified as white), millennials, supporters of respective candidates, email, etc. Yet the minute we refer to anyone as white, we get this reaction.

Worth thinking about.

[harumph]

24. Hi Effie - I think part of is that a substantial number of

liberal white woman are aware of and extremely shamed by their conservative "sisters" voting
habits. My spouse and I are white - liberal and probably left of many on this board - certainly
our extended family. I can tell you that it's absolutely mortifying to be confronted by not just blatant
racism from members of our own family, but the absolute tone deafness accompanying it. We are
nauseated by the deference these bad men get from obsequious fellow white followers.

You'd think it would be obvious. We are all getting fucked - it's just a matter of how soon
and in what order.

It feels like many of our family members have thrown their lot in with no less than Sauron,
and it has broken my heart.

[wryter2000]

68. It also happens when we speak of male privilege

We get "not all men."

I love what someone said above--if it isn't about you, it isn't about you.

I find it appalling that more than 50% of white women voted for a self-admitted sexual abuser.

[Dorian Gray]

84. Louis CK

sold out six shows in Nashville. I'm sure a good proportion of the people going to that show are progressive liberal females.

It isn't just Conservative White Females. Liberal White Females also have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot AND decapitating others who should be allies.

[wryter2000]

87. Can't disagree with you there

Sadly

[Caliman73]

72. That is the way it has been since ... forever.

White people have always represented only themselves individually. Once you become White, you are only responsible for yourself. When certain White people (Irish, Italian, Poles, etc...) first came to the US, they were treated similarly to people of color. Irishmen were all drunks, Italians etc...etc... Once they became White, they were able to take advantage of not representing their entire group.

Unfortunately the answer to your original question is "Not likely anytime soon". White women do not have to look out for everyone's interests because they have never had to. Certainly women in general have had difficulties and face oppression, but White women have also been a "protected" group by White men who hold most of the power in society.

I know you know as a person of color that our actions reflected upon our ENTIRE racial and/or ethnic group. That is for all our lives. Any failure is a result of some cultural or genetic issue. Whereas for the most part, White people are victims of their own poor choices or in many cases, of circumstances.

It definitely is something to think about and I hope that people do consider it rather than reacting defensively as is the case on a few responses.

[DownriverDem]

27. Me too

I just saw that folks 55 and up are moving to Biden. They don't want to lose what they have worked for.

[emmaverybo]

60. Moving to Biden should not be tied in with selfish, narrows just me thinking or an exercise in

white privilege. That would be to ignore his support among black people, especially black women.

[Dorian Gray]

83. Hmmm

#notallwhitewomen

But certainly enough in NYC to support one of the most segregated school systems in the USA. Some of the most liberal people I know when it comes to women's rights will SHOCK me with the veiled racist language when talking about school integration.

White liberals have always benefited from our privilege.


What we often avoid doing is opening our eyes to it and challenging it. It's time.

[brush]

7. It's hard to break them from tribalism but we have to keep trying.

Tribalism being a euphemism. I'm being polite.

[PunkinPi]

11. K&R, Just posted this in Feminism & Diversity --

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12541279

The article is a couple of years old, but timely.

[StarfishSaver]

12. Hear Hear!

[TygrBright]

15. Thank you. Yes. Keep trying. You are having an effect.

It would be wonderful if all of us white women could make the connection on the first try. But the conditioning is fierce, and the power of "part-privilege" is fierce.

(When white privilege is your only privilege, it's pretty damn' tempting to prioritize it above ending the oppression of your female status, especially with a patriarchy so deeply dug in and a whole culture reinforcing it.)

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Women of color are the best hope we have for a better future.

And everything you say is true. Slowly, little by little, it IS sinking in. More and more white women are seeing the connections.

I know it feels like you're doing the heavy lifting.

And you ARE.

And I'm grateful and will do everything I can to help.

Keep the faith, please.

We ARE sisters.

gratefully,
Bright

[PatrickforO]

18. I'm reading this book now called 'Dying of Whiteness.'

Seriously.

The book presents a number of actual cases of people literally dying, not of whiteness per se, but of racism. Dying of the insidious desire to prevent people of color from having any benefits.

I never really thought of it this way because I want all of us to have enough, all of us to be on an even playing field and all of us to be treated equally before the law. There's more, of course, but that's a start.

But there are white majorities in a number of states that are perfectly willing to go without needed medical services because they cannot pay as long as people of color also cannot pay.

This is a disease. Again, not whiteness per se, but this attitude. This idea that you have to watch like a hawk to prevent people of color from getting anything because...why?

Why? That's the issue I can't really get my head around. Wouldn't it be better if we ALL had healthcare and none of us ever had to worry about going bankrupt from medical costs, or about being denied care we need because the 'price point' has been set too high.

You're right though. These abortion bans, hopefully, will wake women up. Make them vote. Make us ALL vote.

And then, after we've voted and turned the country blue, hold those we've elected accountable for DOING what they SAID they would do once in office.

[ismnotwasm]

25. I always thought it was a social disease but

Lately, it seems to have become a social choice. Racism causes social disease for sure.

On the effects of racism. As a for instance American Black males, suffer from primary Hypertension in disproportionate numbers. There is thought that it is in part due to American racism. There are other examples, more directly connected

[Merlot]

19. I stopped reading at:

"When will these women finally get it through their heads..."

Sexist much?

[StarfishSaver]

20. If you hadn't stopped reading, you probably wouldn't have asked such a ridiculous question

[Merlot]

21. It's a sexist phrase.

Wasn't a question.

[StarfishSaver]

23. Actually, it's not. At all.

There are a dozen or so threads here that mention "women." Are they all sexist?

Or is there something else about this particular reference to women that you find so offensive?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

31. Could you explain how it's sexist? I'm not seeing it.

[guillaumeb]

28. Recommended.

An injury to one...….

[hlthe2b]

29. Getting what should be natural organizing groups to recognize it isn't only "nice" to do, but in

their own interest is an eternal problem. I do not doubt the truth in the OP, but as she undoubtedly knows the most extreme part of the problem is not with progressive white women, but rather the RW-leaning or Trump-voting women. Yet, they are a problem for ALL women, regardless of race or ethnicity. Then again, so too are the opportunists like the Candace Owens and Diamond & Silks of the world.

But, on a similar vein, I've long regretted that more of the LGBTQ community did not stand with progressive women fighting for their own most basic of rights--rights over their own bodies, just as progressive women should (and many have) stood for LGBTQ rights. Some have, of course, but it seems a natural alliance that should have little to separate the groups.

Still, I don't think we make these alliances work, though, by "group denunciations"...

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. What would you say is the best way to call attention to the fact that these alliances need to be

built? That each of us, individually and collectively, can continue to learn to do better?

[hlthe2b]

34. After the ugly splintering among the organizers for the Women's March, I've thought about this...

Honestly, without charismatic and influential like-minded leaders among each of the groups emerging or an exceptional leader of at least one of the involved "factions" reaching across to try to show the areas of commonality and persuade as to the "strength in numbers" argument, I think the splintering continues. I mean look at the anger some are launching at Biden for suggesting he'd try to unify for common purpose once elected.

What are your thoughts?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. I'm doing it now. :)

I think anonymized group callouts are helpful, actually -- partly because that's what led me to self-reflection. We can't build collective power until each of us works on ourselves, and most of us find it hard to work on ourselves in front of other people, especially when we've been called out. It's normal to feel defensive. But online, I can read hard truths about my actions and consider whether the conclusions other people draw about me are valid or not, and then find resources to help foster my new way of understanding things. I can call others in in a way that they can either hear -- or they can block me, close their computer and go outside. Or they can go away, think about it, and then come back to it, much more easily than in real-life spaces.

Don't get me wrong, engaging in these issues in person in small groups and large groups is vital. Leadership training is a huge help. In party politics, it is an absolute must. But it's so easy to default to making the oppressed population do all the emotional work of teaching and convincing in in-person interactions, so white women need to step tf up and bring these issues forward themselves.

[EffieBlack]

37. I'm sorry, but I think this is passing the book

We can't and shouldn't wait for some magical leaders to come along and do all the work. We all have a responsibility. In fact, it IS our responsibility. Expecting someone else to come down from on high and do it for us is a copout.

[hlthe2b]

39. Blaming the OTHER is what the RW does. It is beneath us. Ugly and ultimately ineffective.

[EffieBlack]

41. Oh, please

I'm not blaming "the other." I'm telling you the truth about US. But it appears that any suggestion that YOU or someone like you might be part of the problem and could stand to improve seems to hit a sore spot. Interestingly, it is that attitude that smacks of wanting to blame the "other" while refusing to look inward to consider what we can be doing differently.

This kind of defensiveness is a serious part of the problem I'm identifying. It's too bad that you not only can't see it but are doubling down on it.

[hlthe2b]

43. Again, deceptive. Re-read my initial post. I did nothing of the kind.

[StarfishSaver]

50. But you keep doing it.

You're being very defensive and suggesting that she is "blaming" people and it's "closing the door on alliances" as if it's her job to not say anything that might offend allies or they won't be allies anymore.

Allies are allies. And true allies don't mind being told the truth about things. And telling a black woman that she shouldn't tell white women (and #notallwhitewomen, just the ones who are doing what she's talking about) because that means she's blaming "others" and not being "helpful" is just the kind of attitude that she's talking about.

It's really frustrating to see the defensiveness to an honest take on what's happening here. I understand and agree with exactly what she's saying. But I already get it, so she's not talking to me. I wish the the people who really need to understand it weren't so defensive in their "I'm an ally so how dare you say anything that makes me think you're criticizing me" defensiveness. THAT is what isn't helpful.

[hlthe2b]

53. Asking for constructive solutions to working across differences and toward common goals is hardly

defensiveness. THAT was the point of my post. I have left the thread because it is clear few want to do more than pick apart others posts looking for something they can attack rather than acknowledge the problems and look for solutions--or at least make a start. There is commonality, but not if you refuse to look for it.

[EffieBlack]

54. My OP set out a constructive solution

Look beyond narrow self-interests, start caring about others, listen to and work with black women BEFORE getting bitten I their own butts, etc.

But you rejected it because it offended you. That's on you. But demanding "constructive solutions to working across differences and toward common goals" and then complaining when someone offers them because you think they should be blaming other people and not anyone who claims to be on our side isn't "helpful" at all. It's just more of the same.

[StarfishSaver]

56. We'll have to agree to disagree

I think you're doing just what the OP is talking about. You say you want to help but when told how, you criticize her for blaming you and say the fault lies elsewhere.

If you think you already know what to do, why not go do it? And if you don't want to hear what someone else thinks you could be doing differently, why ask them?

What are you doing do address the problem? Are you doing anything to combat voter suppression and to make it easier for your allies to vote? If so, it would be great to hear what you're doing so other can learn and maybe adapt some of you work to their communities.

[hlthe2b]

58. You could not be more wrong. Your assumptions only show you know nothing about me.

or anyone else here. You have lumped me in with those you are angry with and have stereotyped me without even reading my earlier posts. It is not merely unfair, but wrong. Enjoy the thread, enjoy the day, but go attack someone who deserves it. I do not.

[EffieBlack]

35. Calling out people in certain groups for their behavior is not "group denunciation"

And while there are extremists among Republican women (and a tiny percentage are black but so tiny, they're not even worth mentioning except as a deflection ala #itsnotonlywhitewomen), I'm not talking about them because they aren't the ones who insist they're on my side and I don't waste my time trying to explain any of this to them because they're a lost cause and not worth my effort.

I'm talking to the women who believe and claim they're allies because they vote Democratic, but don't lift a finger to help ensure that black and brown people are also empowered. Their regard of and disinterest in those voters and their rights is coming back to bite them, it has many times in the past.

[hlthe2b]

38. wow, way to totally discount/ignore my entire post. Just blast away at all of the "other"

That will help. I at least offer thoughts on reaching across the groups--not simply point fingers at those one might wish to BLAME.

[EffieBlack]

40. "That will help"

I'm not trying to "help" - I'm speaking the truth. Are you suggesting that my doing so will make you less likely to do the right thing?

[hlthe2b]

42. Don't put words in my or anyone elses mouth. It is not merely deceptive.

I never said nor even suggested such. I'm NOT the enemy, but rather a natural ally as are most progressives if one lets them. Closing the door on such alliances is hardly helpful.

[EffieBlack]

45. I didn't put words in your mouth. I'm responding to exactly what you're saying

What precisely do you mean by "Closing the door on such alliances is hardly helpful"?

How am I "closing the door on alliances"? Does my speaking the truth how I think people can be better allies make you any less likely to do the right thing? If so, why? Do you see doing the right thing as some kind of gift or favor you're bestowing on me and others but if we don't show sufficient appreciation, you will withdraw it or "close the door"?

And what isn't helpful about my being honest with you? Are you so fragile that hearing my truth will drive you away from the cause? If so, are you really all that committed to the cause in the first place or is it only worth doing it if causes you no discomfort and the minute you hear something you don't like you'll "close the door" and walk away? Because if that's how you see it, it's not a cause. It's a hobby.

[hlthe2b]

47. You continually misrepresent what I have posted. I'm done.

[StarfishSaver]

52. She's quoting you

And asking you what you mean by what you said. How is that "misrepresenting what you've posted"?

[BarbD]

30. It's easy to get defensive,

but it doesn't accomplish anything. As an 81 year old white woman who struggled to raise four girls as a single parent, I didn't face anywhere near the obstacles a black mother did.

However, this is now and the only way we can succeed is together. My daughter says it's too hard and we can't win, but I absolutely refuse to give up. Most of my grandchildren are fighting for social justice. I am very proud of them and will continue speaking out, encouraging them for this is a fight that must be won.

[IronLionZion]

44. This sort of thing would likely inspire more voter turnout among women, especially black women

which is why they first went all in on voter suppression in those states. They don't want black women doing what happened in Alabama where that creep Roy Moore was rejected in a surprise upset. And they would really flip their shit if they had to deal with a black woman governor of Georgia like Stacy Abrams.

It's a simple plan:

1. Stop minorities (and young people, transplants, and other liberal demographics) from voting
2. Roll back women's rights
3. Roll back more civil rights
4. Enjoy the benefits of having made the white patriarchy great again

[mahina]

46. Man, I am tired of explaining that too!

[Ginger42]

48. My husband has a coworker

who is a conservative white woman. She’s a single mom who’s on a lot of assistance programs, and she keeps voting for Republicans who don’t support those programs. He once asked her why she voted for politicians who want to take away the programs she relies on, and she said “Oh, they wouldn’t take them away from ME. They’ll just take them away from other people who don’t deserve them.” The implication about what made those “other people” different from her was pretty clear.

I think a lot of people have this same disconnect. Changes in laws, policies and programs will somehow not apply to or affect them. They’ll only hurt “other people.”

[wryter2000]

69. Remember what the angry, white Trumpster woman said?

"He's hurting the wrong people."

It's easy to see who the right people to hurt are.

[crazytown]

49. 'Narrow self interest' like abortion?

[StarfishSaver]

51. A lot of women don't see most anti-abortion efforts as a problem because they think it

doesn't affect them. They are past child-bearing years or have enough money, family stability, etc. to think they either will never need one or if they do, it will still be available to them. But these draconian measures are trampling all over their own self-satisfiedness and self-determination.

[crazytown]

57. HB 314 represents a monstrous attack on a woman's right to chose

No, women of color do not have to listen to them carry on about how victimized they are and how WE must all wake up and do something about it because OMG! LOOK at how it's affecting THEM

They can go their own way if they so choose. Patriachy seeks to divide and conquer.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. I don't blame black women at all. I'd be tired too havin to keep explaining to white women

what should be so damn obvious... we're in this together!!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[elleng]

59. Many of 'these women' fully understand, thank you,

and receive no such lectures from our dear friends.

Sorry your experience is not similar.

[Tipperary]

62. IKR? We went some time without these lectures.

Nice while it lasted lol.

[EffieBlack]

63. So glad to know you missed me

But never fear - I always come back.

[sheshe2]

81. I for one am glad you are back.

Nor have I seen/ read any lecture from you. Not one.

Have learned much from all your posts. I also saw that you said not all white women and that many of us are allies. I saw that. You posted it and I read and understood that it was not about all white women and it is not about me.

Thanks, Effie. I have missed you.

[EffieBlack]

86. Thanks, my friend

[sheshe2]

88. Back at you, Effie.

[EffieBlack]

64. If you're among "these women" who "fully understand," my OP wasn't about you

[elleng]

71. Thanks

[MicaelS]

61. Reminds me of Second Wave Feminism.

Which was mainly by and for middle and upper class white women. They of course would still want poor women of all colors to clean their homes, etc.

[EffieBlack]

66. True

And while many of these women were nominally "pro-choice," they weren't too terribly concerned about restrictions on abortion rights because they still had access to birth control (and even if it failed, their lives wouldn't be devastated) and they were confident that, if it ever became necessary, they and their daughters could access and afford safe, legal abortions through their private physicians. So they still voted for anti-abortion politicians and tolerated the appointment of anti-choice judges.

These bills, however take away their personal comfort and freedom. Not only have they made it harder to obtain abortions and other reproductive care, by putting doctors under threat of going to jail for a long time, they've virtually eliminated the possibility that these women can take care of any unwanted pregnancy through a discreet "gynecological procedure" in their doctor's office.

Maybe they should have thought of that sooner. Whoops.

[MicaelS]

75. There is also the issue that too many women...

Still see a woman who needs / wants an abortion as a slut. So we get into the whole issue of slut-shaming.

Otherwise your post is dead-on.

[IndyOp]

65. The 70's "Me Decade" and Reagan's "Are YOU better off than you were 4 years ago?"

provided training in short term self-absorption.

That is, in the 70’s and 80’s if you weren’t on the business end of injustice you forgot that making choices for the greater good now will benefit you in the long-run.

[EffieBlack]

70. You are SO right!

"Are YOU better off?" Not "Are WE better off?"

[ecstatic]

67. Hopefully it's not too late for them to change course.

I'm trying to be optimistic, but why would AL and GA and the other states do this if they intended to have a fair election next fall? With barr at the helm, the fix might already be in.... permanently.

[mcar]

73. As a white woman, I am embarrassed at the % of white women who vote R

[madville]

79. White women who vote R

in my opinion and experience, do so primarily because they consider themselves "Pro-Life" due to their religious beliefs. I'm from the Southeast, so that is my perspective in a red state.

[mcar]

80. I live in FL and agree

All abortion all the time.

[Eliot Rosewater]

76. This belongs in WAPO...brilliant

[tblue37]

77. Remember this white woman's lament?

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-voter-hes-not-hurting-the-people-he-needs-be-hurting

snip

“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” she said of Mr. Trump. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

snip

[Mike Niendorff]

82. K&R.

This is what happens when we talk about gender without the context of economic class -- and severe class interests. This needs to change.


MDN

[betsuni]

85. K&R

[fescuerescue]

89. I believe game theory answers the question

"When will these women finally get it through their heads that they must look beyond the narrow self-interests they think are enough to sustain and protect them and start caring about people other than themselves?"

Just a larger version of the prisoners dilemma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

[EffieBlack]

90. This dilemma doesn't address this situation

It needs a fourth scenario: A betrays B but B remains silent. A and B both go to prison.