can we get the science straight here?

[mopinko]

Last edited Thu May 16, 2019, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

can we stop calling it a heartbeat bill?
can we please reject their spin?

at 6 weeks, the embryo has no heart. it has the beginnings of that organ. it has a simple electrical pulse. the circulatory system is rudimentary. it is a layer of cells, not yet an organ. blood does not circulate till a few weeks later.

dont take it from me, read this.
this is the closest to an unemotional description that i could find in a few clicks. a little "mommy tilt", but accurate descriptions and pictures.
"The embryo is now made of three layers. The top layer — the ectoderm — will give rise to your baby's outermost layer of skin, central and peripheral nervous systems, eyes, and inner ears.
Your baby's heart and a primitive circulatory system will form in the middle layer of cells — the mesoderm. This layer of cells will also serve as the foundation for your baby's bones, ligaments, kidneys and much of the reproductive system."

WILL FORM
WILL FORM
WILL FORM
WILL FORM
WILL FORM
WILL FORM

it is not a heartbeat, because it is not a heart.
so stop saying that.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302?fbclid=IwAR3qZfHq9O7lzn3GxuEraj2XpqfZgaUfPJ2Z82vWiXz3t6rVKf24pPnP1U0

[elleng]

1. can we please reject their spin?

[we can do it]

2. Thank you.

[wryter2000]

3. Sorry I can only give this one rec. N/t

N/t

[GoCubsGo]

4. And, to be completely correct, at six weeks, it is not a fetus.

It is an embryo. It becomes a fetus at week 9.

[lunatica]

9. I've been posting this fact earlier today.

It surprises me that some DUers who otherwise have very good information in their arguments keep calling an embryo a fetus. It’s the very reason for having laws that make abortion legal during the first trimester.

Thanks for posting this vital fact!

[Farmer-Rick]

21. Oh yeah, you are right I forgot about that.

It's not even a fetus yet, but we got to put it ahead of a living breathing woman.

Fuck them, if my wife, daughter, or granddaughters wanted an abortion, I would get them the abortion pill. It can be purchased in several countries. Just saying.

[BadgerMom]

6. K & R

Thank you. So useful and spot on.

[tblue37]

7. K&R for visibility. nt

[hunter]

8. It's not even "spin." It's lies and misdirection. It's bullshit.

I doubt most Republican politicians, and many religious leaders, personally care one way or another about abortion. Some of them are flat out hypocrites who have forced women to have abortions.

All they care about is money and power. They'll say anything to hold onto that money and power, even if it means they have to lie to people they don't respect.

[mopinko]

10. i agree. they are scoring points, and they dont care who it hurts.

they dont care who it doesnt hurt, either. you are correct. they care no more for embryos and fetuses than for brown kids in cages.

but it sorta is spin, as in- let's call it something that the talking heads can repeat w/o sneering or laughing out loud.
it's- what would chuck the toad call it?

[Chin music]

26. And 'winning'.

[hunter]

31. Is it really "winning" if they cheat?

Look at Trump. He'll cheat at golf, even when he's playing with a child.

[Chin music]

32. Their people are strong w the stupid.

I hear you.

[Ilsa]

11. GOP thinks an embryo is a tiny baby,

not barely differentiated cells.

[mopinko]

35. the memes out there on this topic make my head explode.

they do think that. they have little plastic "fetus" dolls that are perfect little babies, meant to show 12 week fetuses. a 12 week fetus looks more like a baby elephant than a human baby to me.
that's why i picked the link i did. most of that info on the web is "pregnant mommy" focused, but at least this one has pics. but even mayo says it is a heartbeat at this stage.

[essaynnc]

12. Since the bible makes no reference to "abortion".......

I've heard about this scripture that makes a direct reference to the "value" of a fetus. The following is from the STR "stand to reason" website (https://www.str.org/articles/what-exodus-21-22-says-about-abortion#.XN3byI5KiUk):


"One text, however, is strong. Exodus 21:22-25 is usually used to argue that the Bible assigns a lower value to the unborn than to other humans. Rabbis and Jewish thinkers I've discussed this point with on the radio have been especially adamant--even irate. I think the evidence shows, though, that Moses taught just the opposite. If I'm right, we have a powerful argument for the value Scripture puts on the life of the unborn.

Dead or Alive?

The New American Standard Bible (NASB) renders Exodus 21:22-25 this way:

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.[1]"


If we're going to call our point of view godly or biblical, and the bible doesn't mention abortion, this is about as close as she gets!

[mopinko]

13. umm. what does that have to do w the op?

um nothing.

[Farmer-Rick]

22. Yeah, the bible doesn't seem to care one way or another

But religions are all about controlling women so they don't really care if the bible says nothing about it. They must control those women.

[suffragette]

29. The point being made in the OP is scientific. Why are you trying to change that

to “godly or biblical.”

There was no “we” “going to call our point of view” religious, just you for some reason trying to shift the thread to that view.

[calimary]

14. At this early point after an egg is fertilized, the zygote is

basically still a mass of differentiating cells.

[mopinko]

15. yes. just beginning.

WILL FORM.

[warmfeet]

16. This all misses the big picture. Heartbeat, no heartbeat, whatever.

These are repug arguments, and I don't think we should play their game. Playing defense will not help us win elections.

The real question is, do individual humans have the right to make decisions regarding their own future, their own health?

If abortion is illegal, we as humans, are making decisions about other humans futures.

We are forcing individuals, women, into servitude as incubators for fetuses.

This is a morally abhorrent position to take, in my opinion (not that anyone cares). Eh, what do I know?

[mopinko]

18. i'm not talking about the big picture. i was making a small point.

the bigger point is pretty much universal here, so there was no point in making that argument, imho.

[smirkymonkey]

17. +1000

Thank YOU!

[greyl]

19. Correction: At 6 weeks, it's not a fetus.

(As mentioned in above replies already)

[Aussie105]

20. Did some work on embryo development with High School students.

Fertilized chicken eggs, opened one up every 3 days during the 21 day development of the chicken.

Early development is slow, only the last week shows rapid growth.

Heart beat with active blood pumping starts at around 1 week. If human embryos develop similarly, that would make it at the start of the second trimester, around 12 weeks of human pregnancy.

Killed a few potential chickens doing that work with the students. Should I feel guilty? Not really, every time I eat an egg, I am killing a POTENTIAL chicken. Every time I eat a slice of bread made from wheat seeds, I'm killing many POTENTIAL wheat plants.

When should abortions not be performed? When the baby is viable outside the womb, not earlier.
(Just my opinion, of course.)

[spanone]

23. republicans deny science every chance they get.

[SCVDem]

24. In science class we learned that

Life, eats, breathes, defacates and can reproduce.

Fail on all counts!

I despise stupid!

[SunSeeker]

25. K & R

[raging moderate]

27. Wuoldn't this fact negate this law?

The law is usually enforced as precisely as possible. If there is no heart, then there definitely is no heartbeat.

[mopinko]

34. boy would i love the see that court case.

if you place it in the framework of roe, it is so far from viability, and a most valid science lesson for these morons.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. Thank you. Journal-worthy. . . . nt

[Chin music]

30. SO sick of re-litigating every gop loss.

Abortion is legal. Deal w it. Don't agree w it? Don't have one.

[Hekate]

33. BOOKMARKING. Thank you for this public service, mopinko

[mopinko]

36. awwww. thanks.