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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/27/opinion/drivers-license-suspension-fees.htmlWhen a Traffic Ticket Costs $13,000
Suspending drivers licenses for unpaid fees buries poor people in debt.
By Emily Reina Dindial and Ronald J. Lampard
May 27, 2019
For most people living in America, transportation is central to daily life. About 83 percent of Americans report that they regularly drive a car multiple times a week. Yet millions of drivers across the country have had their licenses suspended taking away their ability to drive to work, school, the grocery store or the doctor essentially because they are poor.
In 2014, Leah Jackson was ticketed for obstructing traffic in Ostego, Minn., after turning left at a red light. That kind of thing happens to many people. But, as Ms. Jackson explained to state lawmakers in 2018 testimony, she had just started a new job and hadnt yet received a paycheck, so she couldnt pay the $135 fine right away.
A few months later, she was pulled over, told her drivers license was suspended for an unpaid ticket and cited for driving with a suspended license a new $200 ticket. Her job responsibilities as a retail store manager required her to make bank runs and other deliveries, so she kept driving in order to keep her job. In less than a month, she received two more tickets for driving with a suspended license. After accounting for the additional tickets and the resulting increase in her monthly insurance premiums, her debt from the initial infraction spiraled into more than $13,000 over four and a half years.
The criminal justice system too often produces a self-perpetuating cycle, particularly for the poorest people, who cant pay fines or hire lawyers to make charges go away. In 39 states, you can lose your driving privileges if youre unable to pay a court fine or fee, for things as minor as a traffic violation. But a bipartisan effort is growing to end the fundamentally unjust practice of wealth-based suspensions.
SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)incurring more possible liability if no insurance, etc.? Is Uber etc. not available perhaps in these areas? Or, is perhaps Uber too expensive, etc.?
localroger
(3,622 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,374 posts)My son used Uber in Paris in 2014.
It may not have been available everywhere in the US in 2014, but I don't think it's true to say it was unavailable almost anywhere 5 years after it was started.
stopdiggin
(11,242 posts)But the fact is, Uber was still not available in a LOT of places 5 years ago. And .. isn"t it a little tone deaf to be suggesting Uber to the economically disadvantaged? The OP was about an individual losing her drivers license due to unpaid traffic ticket. I don't think daily Uber use is probably within means here.
SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)didn't know how much Uber cost and in fact did ask this in my orig. Posting.
stopdiggin
(11,242 posts)Apologies. Perhaps that was a little intemperate. And, yes, I see that you did reference cost in your post. But .. my post was actually in response to another (not yours). And, as you'll note, there was more than one reference to Uber in much the same vein as you read down the string. So the "Uber" query triggered more than just one response.
SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)amount of 'take' that local communities can get from their tickets (some cities were getting huge and excessive amounts from their tickets, grossly unfair and obscene). Some smaller cities in the outskirts of STLMO were generating huge amounts from their tickets and people were complaining, which led to the state passing such ordinances (that a city can obtain only XX amount from ticket writing). In summary, I hope that perhaps exposure of this practice in MN eventually helps this poor woman driver (and of course others in this same boat). Absolutely disgusting. Take care.
stopdiggin
(11,242 posts)Yes. I'm aware of Ferguson .. and the spotlight it shown on the "money mills." And, you're right, it is/was disgusting. And had been disgusting for a long, long time. And, as I point out to my friends, unfortunately nobody really gave a good G-damn about the poor people caught up into it .. until they started rioting, trashing stores, blocking roads, and the TV cameras and the national news eventual showed up. And then we all ask, "Why do they act like that ..?"
MO has recently done some good things. I hope it helps. Unfortunately .. I see a bit of a conundrum in the issue as well. If people are just allowed to dodge penalties, fines and judgments (forgiven, put in abeyance, or ignored) .. what does that do to our civil society? Can I completely disregard all traffic laws .. in fact drive without a license at all .. due to the fact that I am low on the wage scale? What is parking going to look like in your town, without the enforcement garnered by parking tickets? How about other court fines, and laws that they apply to? Can I just pile my trash up out in the street, or in front of my neighbor's door now? Aren't we more or less inviting (actually engineering) a scofflaw civil order. Or, at the very least, a layer of society that pays even less attention, showing even less regard, to laws and regulation than the minimum that they pay notice now?
While having all the sympathy in the world for the working poor (and in fact the poor in general) .. they DO have to obey the same laws as all the rest of us. I think we need to think this through a little bit.
SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)that I'm sure that the powers that be in Ferguson and other areas are closely paying attention to.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)You just stated the main reason for impeachment! Oh wait, laws are for Little People. My bad.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)PatrickforO
(14,559 posts)For your job? As a retail store manager? Every day?
That would get real expensive fast.
I think the point of this post was that the victim was grossly overcharged with fines.
Seriously, God help you if the 'justice system' gets its claws in you.
JI7
(89,240 posts)more for transportation than the money she makes.
Dorian Gray
(13,479 posts)would incur costs, just as the traffic tickets did. She didn't have the money to pay.
SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)as one or two of the posters in this trend seemed to mock me. I haven't used Uber so don't knock me, I didn't realize it was so expensive. I seemed to hear that Uber is everywhere and that it's the wonder drug of the world according to some of my friends.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)SWBTATTReg
(22,065 posts)kind of wonder where are the others in her same predicament, I can't believe she's the only one. I would think that this wouldn't be allowed to proceed as far as it has. In STLMO, they even have an program that if you can't pay, they setup a payment plan while also stopping any outstanding warrant issues, etc. I guess in MN, they don't have such programs. Perhaps these types of plans are only in big urban cities like STLMO, large number of urban poor, unable to afford pricey tickets, etc. (also don't have insurance, etc.). This kept the city's jail population down (reducing the non violent offenders from jail). The city did this too for small amounts of pot found on ones' person too.
Dorian Gray
(13,479 posts)The price of Uber depends on where you are going and how long you will be in the car. If I take Uber x (the cheaper non car pooling version) in NYC from my home to my daughter's school, which is 2 miles away, it costs about $9.00 each way. That would be $18.00 a day. $4,680 a year (if I took the uber 2 times a day for 260 days a year. I didn't include weekends and took out a few extra days for good measure.) She also had to run deliveries as a part of her job. So jumping into an uber one more time a day... at $9.00 per trip (which is a very lowball amount), would up that to $6,900 per year.
If the amount is any higher, which it probably would be in suburbia where there aren't as many cars or as many uber x vs. uber black options, you're looking at potentially $20 - $30 per ride. Or more. (Some people drive an hour to work each way, or more) In NYC to go from our home to the Upper East Side (where my husband works) would be about $30 each way in an uber X. Twice a day, that would be $15,600 per year. Add deliveries throughout the day via uber, and you're looking at over $20,000 per year.
In NYC, we have the luxury of the subway, of course. So that is completely unnecessary. But "Just taking a taxi" or "just taking an uber" isn't an option for people who are struggling financially.
It's a tone-deaf suggestion.
I'm sorry people are making fun of you for it. That's not cool. But uber isn't a good answer for someone who is struggling financially, as the woman in the OP was. And in three years, she could spend a ton of money on rides.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)Demovictory9
(32,421 posts)AllaN01Bear
(17,993 posts)on edit, where i lived before i moved here , the cops would pull over a teenager for a "fixit ticket . take it to the judge and have it noloed and fixed . same kid would be pulled over and over and over for same offense ... and people wonder why i dont drive .
rocktivity
(44,572 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 30, 2020, 11:46 PM - Edit history (1)
why couldn't she get the $135 together within a few months?
rocktivity
eggplant
(3,908 posts)The problem is a system that punishes those people who are living paycheck to paycheck.
MichMan
(11,868 posts)Likely because she had been putting it off for a few months and was feeling it would be OK to keep putting it off a little longer. Perhaps she was planning on paying it "next week" but kept postponing.
She had plenty of opportunity in several months to pay off the original fine. Once she got the 2nd fine however, to continue doing it again and again shows a certain amount of recklessness. It turned out to be a very foolish and expensive mistake.
aikoaiko
(34,162 posts)But this person must be a terrible driver to pulled over so much.
Left in red? Who does that?
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,308 posts)And sometimes, just for the heck of it.
underpants
(182,614 posts)I'm sure other states too
That's if you are on a one way street turning onto a one way street.
Jose Garcia
(2,586 posts)ecstatic
(32,653 posts)I wish there were more federal laws to protect citizens from that type of over-policing/over-ticketing/fines. I almost always keep up with the flow of traffic, which is usually well above the speed limit, but I haven't been pulled over in close to 15 years (knock on wood). My county doesn't rely on traffic tickets to fund our cities (knock on wood).
Dem_4_Life
(1,765 posts)He is lucky that he works for himself but he still needs to get places and currently cannot drive since he doesn't want to take the risk of getting arrested since driving with an expired license is an arrestable offence in Texas. So he does take Uber/Lyft along with using friends/family although this is a huge burden and has even cost him jobs that he cannot take because of transportation issues.
This all comes from an OLD ticket that was suppose to have been dismissed but there was an issue with this small town. This original ticket was total BS and he should have never got a ticket in the first place. He was already promised a new trial by the judge and is currently waiting on when that will be scheduled (which he has been waiting months). It is the small towns like this that count on making people lives a living hell to just plead guilty to something that they didn't do just to make money.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)The city of Chicago has a $1300 dollar admin fee for driving on a suspended license. His license was suspended for parking tickets.
The new game in Chicago is everything is now a municipal violation versus a state violation. That way the city gets to keep all the revenue
(He wasnt driving one of my vehicles so I had no reason to run his record)
The shit this guy and his family went through was really eye opening for me. The city takes the car and sells it at auction for pennies on the dollar regardless of any lien you may owe to a bank.
How Chicago Ticket Debt Sends Black Motorists Into Bankruptcy
A cash-strapped city employs punitive measures to collect from cash-strapped residents and lawyers benefit.
https://features.propublica.org/driven-into-debt/chicago-ticket-debt-bankruptcy/
In 2007, an estimated 1,000 Chapter 13 bankruptcies included debts to the city, usually for unpaid tickets, with the median amount claimed around $1,500 per case. By last year, the number of cases surpassed 10,000, with the typical debt to the city around $3,900. Though the numbers of tickets issued did not rise during that time, the city increased the costs of fines, expanded its traffic camera program and sought more license suspensions.
The result: more debt due to tickets.
Legal experts say whats happening in Chicagos bankruptcy courts is unique. Parking, traffic and vehicle compliance tickets prompt so many bankruptcies the court here leads the nation in Chapter 13 filings.
Its a problem fueled both by the citys increasingly aggressive ticketing to boost revenue tickets brought in nearly $264 million in 2016, or about 7 percent of the citys $3.6 billion operating budget and a handful of law firms that pitch bankruptcy protection as a cheap solution to drivers woes.
Captain Stern
(2,199 posts)Unless things work differently in Minnesota, you can have your case continued to give you more time to deal with it.
However, the problem here is that they are suspending people's driver's licenses for nonpayment, after just a few months. That causes a cascading effect of more tickets and higher insurance premiums.
I don't have a problem with licenses getting suspended for major infractions, but nonpayment on ticket received for a minor traffic violation isn't a good idea. It would make more sense to attach a late fee, and submit the item to a collection agency.
Vinca
(50,237 posts)While I sympathize with her inability to pay the initial fine, laws apply to people with money and people without money. If a child had been crossing the street and was hit by her car when she made the illegal turn, the sad story would have taken a totally different turn.
hunter
(38,303 posts)... but impossible for someone living close to the edge.
That's not justice.
Vinca
(50,237 posts)Ilsa
(61,690 posts)was a protected left turn available at that intersection? If traffic is heavy, sometimes the only way to get the turn is to pull into the intersection and wait for the yellow and red lights to stop oncoming traffic. I wonder if the cars before and after her did the same thing. I wonder if there was a long line of cars trying to make the turn.
For all we know, the police officer could have given her a warning and then reported the intersection as one that needs a change in the traffic light system to provide for safer left turns.
Jose Garcia
(2,586 posts)you actually show up to court.
hunter
(38,303 posts)https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/
Ms. Jackson might have paid a fine of a few dollars.
Wealthy people have paid fines over $100,000.
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)About to search for it and post it. Thanks for beating me to it. I like the idea.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,476 posts)In some cases, missing a half day may get you fired.