General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat Michelle Goldberg, NYT columnist just said !!
"Imagine if Democrats do nothing and don't impeach. And Trump wins
reelection. They will have to face the humiliation of their own cowardice."
BigmanPigman
(51,585 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)INdemo
(6,994 posts)and turned it over to the T-Party is because they show no back bone. The Republicans beat the hell out of the Democrats blaming them for the huge Bush deficits. Allowing the Repukes to misinform the voters about the new AFC, The Democrats acted like and were cowards in 2010 election.
Im telling ya if they don't impeach voters will not forget and we can kiss our Democracy good- bye because Republicans will retake the House in 2020
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)demoralized Dems who just won't feel as motivated in 2020 as they could if we stood up to the dictator.
I have Democratic ideals in my DNA, my mom and dad, my immigrant grandparents who escaped from Russian oppression on a boat to come here. I was shocked, sad, and irate that Bush got away with a war based on false premises and was never held accountable. But, this is (hope not) would be strike two for me. Never in a zillion years would I ever think I would feel that way. Of course, no where to go, and everyone knows that
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Makes no sense since we need the Senate to punish him.
bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)My view is that the House leadership are playing a timing game. Following due process to bring witnesses and documents before the committees is appropriate. They are winning the expedited court rulings and any delays in the process are because Trump is stalling.
In a few weeks, after more court wins to enforce subpoenas, the scope of obstruction will justify going to an impeachment inquiry that should override most of the obstructive behavior and allow the release of Grand Jury evidence w/o Barr's involvement.
Expect to see full on televised hearings by this Fall and the issuance of Articles of Impeachment by the Spring. We all know McConnell will blather on about a coup and election year, but will delay a Senate trial until after the election.
All GOP Senator candidates up for election will have to answer about their position on impeachment. They will be tied directly to Trump's maladministration with nothing to show their voters from this do nothing Senate.
What better way to bring out our voters to support their Dem Representatives and Presidential ticket while ousting any GOP lackeys?
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)And at least act like you are passionate about it. Stop hand-wringing and the internal debates. Unify in your commitment to impeachment. Stop looking like you detest the idea of impeachment, but that it MAY be necessary in some undisclosed imaginary future.
It may already be too late. Because everyone will know that Nancy and Chuck were dragged into it. I hate to say anything positive about the GOP but at least they all can sound angry, passionate, even if manufactured. Lindsay Graham can go from calling Trump unfit during the primaries, to vehemently defending him, even supporting that he is being unfairly persecuted. And he does it with froth spilling out the sides of his mouth and his eyes bugged out, and his veins popping on his neck.
Cautious pragmatism is NOT going to win an election! This is a new age of reality TV. And that is the one arena that Trump is master of. Everyone loves the villain on the island. At least they want to keep watching with him on it, if the alternative is the quiet minion that just goes along to get along.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)You
And at least act like you are passionate about it. Stop hand-wringing and the internal debates. Unify in your commitment to impeachment. Stop looking like you detest the idea of impeachment, but that it MAY be necessary in some undisclosed imaginary future.
real Cannabis calm
(1,124 posts)National Security [section] New York Times
May 29 at 6:21 PM
Muellers statement highlights key differences with Barr on investigation of President Trump
By Devlin Barrett
Reporter focusing on national security and law enforcement
Departing special counsel Robert S. Mueller III finally spoke publicly Wednesday, and his carefully chosen comments highlight the ways in which he disagrees with his boss, Attorney General William P. Barr, about the facts and the law surrounding the investigation into President Trump.
If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so, Mueller said Wednesday.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212143385
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that they want him impeached will sit home in 20 and let him get re-elected? That makes no sense.
Heard the same ridiculous argument in 07 when the Dems didn't impeach Bush. It was wrong then and wrong now.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)to work your fingers to the bone on a campaign, maybe not.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)feels exactly as you do. If they did Trump wouldnt be president in the first place.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Because our party chooses not to act on impeachment. But I reckon it is highly possible there may be others among the 10 million who signed the impeachment petition on move on who could feel the same way.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and let Trump get re-elected?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)we are impeaching is having on me and people who see it as clear as day here, and the 10 million who signed the move on petition. You have got to see that??? the ardor, the certainty that it is the correct, moral, and just path to take. If not, at least acknowledge that there are good Dems who think that way ???
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)for all sorts of things. And they don't have an emotional breakdown if the petition doesn't happen
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Polling still shows most of the people dont support impeachment.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Will unless he murders someone.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But there are as many independent swing voters in the middle. We need for them to support impeachment or risk losing them in the next election.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)I am starting to think that the most important thing is to make sure those middle of the roaders KNOW in a simple, succinct way, exactly what he did wrong with regard to obstruction. This alone, since there are other courts looking into other crimes.
I'd like to know more about censure.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)The Senate Watergate hearings are what turned public opinion against Nixon. The same kind of televised House investigations of Trump will hopefully do the same.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)me that we are probably light years away from laying out a case for anything other than obstruction and Stormy payment. Especially given the roadblocking on docs and witnesses. Congress doesn't even have financials, tax returns, unredacted report, counter intelligence data?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)So far they have been in favor of Congress.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)solely on Mueller report. Because everything else will take time, I am starting to think take the Mueller findings on obstruction with the underlying evidence we are supposed to get and censure him now. Because it's then on the record and shows we don't approve and is close in timing to Mueller report. Will force repukes to go on record that they approve of his conduct and we can move on.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But want more investigations. Mueller only scratched the surface of Trumps crimes.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)barbtries
(28,787 posts)needs to own that. i have begun to relax a bit lately more confident that impeachment will happen. the case is building. the democrats have to try as much as possible to be able to make the case to the american people that it's not a political bullshit impeachment like Clinton's was. many of us know that only too well, but a large minority of americans are just not in touch as we are. the media is very little help. they still report on trump as if he's a legitimate president and not a wholly corrupted mentally ill criminal who made his way to the WH illegitimately.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)happened? Haven't looked at the status of Mueller testifying. Of course, there's always hope that the other investigations will yield something people will actually care about?? Like they didn't care that he didn't pay taxes or lost a billion.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)it's maddening. they just keep getting away with everything. but here is some good news: trump has been losing in court. he will continue to lose in court. it's too slow for me too. but my frustration level is just too high. my outrage meter has been blown. i have to trust the democrats.
i just have to at least right now. i can hardly watch the news at this point. twitter used to be my outlet but for a couple days i can't engage there. too much bad news. plus i can't find a job and am struggling with depression for that reason and so.
i just have to trust them for a minute. what i can NOT believe right now is that impeachment will not happen prior to the 2020 election. i too hope it is sooner than later, but just recognize that the case that is brought will have to be overwhelming and persuasive, so that even if the republicans in the senate refuse to convict, the public at large will know of his guilt.
recently i argued with Rep David Price (NC-democrat) about impeachment. he agreed that trump has committed impeachable offenses, but told me, dead serious, the republicans will never convict. i think he actually said something to the effect that if i thought there was any chance they would, he felt sorry for me.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Mueller report was released. Most people trusted him and knew he had worked for a very long time. Plus, he was considered non-partisan. We had to tie our line to his boat !
But, we have a second chance - if we can get him to testify - BOOM do it.
I hear you. We are being bombarded every day and don't see anything that will stop it. His approvals are rising since Mueller report. Just turn tv and DU off for awhile - it helps to recenter. And you can make believe everything bad to trump happened while you were away.
barbtries
(28,787 posts)i cannot say aloud. sigh
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)JI7
(89,247 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,585 posts)Not me, but many do. I know Dems who do not think before they vote too. Have you met people (Dems) who didn't vote for Hillary in 2020? I have, and for different reasons. The overall electorate doesn't think like DUers do.
JI7
(89,247 posts)they prefer trump
BigmanPigman
(51,585 posts)people didn't vote or voted for Bernie as a write-in. People are strange...Jim Morrison was right.
Me.
(35,454 posts)and what are the Dems doing shows. Funny, I don't hear them calling out the Cons. Has Ms. Goldberg done anything aside from pointing a finger?
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)wryter2000
(46,037 posts)From supposed liberals, no less.
Me.
(35,454 posts)let him know ari@msnbc.com
Perseus
(4,341 posts)A lot of people will be sorry they did not support those who are trying to push the Democratic leaders to do the job they were elected to do, and that job right now is to impeach Barr, Pence and the buffoon.
If these people do not get impeached the entire country, even those MAGA people, will be very sorry because things will get really bad, nothing like giving a drivers license to a 12-year-old, he/she will have a few accidents the first three months.
Many of you have not seen first hand what happens when you let a bunch of crooks loose and do not contain them, the chaos is inevitable, I have seen it. I really don't understand it, anyone who loves this country, who is paying attention should be enraged that the Democratic leaders are not moving faster to impeach, the other side is moving fast to destroy.
Sending emails and whatever to Ari, and Goldberg is the same as killing the messenger.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)so hard to convince people here to start impeachment. Seems to me that sending emails to Ari that you didn't like Dems and sympathetic press speaking up for what they truly believe in seems so antithetical to what we are.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Do you agree with that as well?
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Me.
(35,454 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)We have our leadership saying NO....and, it all depends on them. It's not like we are voting or anything, or the petition with over 10 million mattered. They are the only ones to look to. Like what the other panelist said, didn't catch his name, but the gist was - JUST STAND UP - win or lose, politics no politics, what trump will say or not say, just get it on record. And, I would add - move on to protecting the 2020 election - which TRussia WILL try and steal again.
watoos
(7,142 posts)I hope you don't get in trouble for this post, I did for saying something similar.
There was a lot more in Ari's show, he showed a clip from Republican Justin Amash's town hall and when Amash bashed Trump and said that he needed to be held accountable, he got a standing ovation.
Did you see former Congressman Steve Israel arguing against impeachment and a former Republican Congressman (forget his name) laying out an intelligent argument for impeachment?
dhol82
(9,352 posts)Its sad that only republicans who dont care about reelection can speak the truth.
Me.
(35,454 posts)What...Nunberg busy?
Me.
(35,454 posts)because they are not doing what you think should be done when you think it should be done? And that they deserve to be called cowards?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)can't be coaxed or convinced out of you. If you can't explain how going the political expediency route vs. standing up to a monster, just have no clue how to fix that. All I do know is that I am one of the 10 million who is for impeaching the MF ASAP
Me.
(35,454 posts)don't be silly. But I also think that kicking around our Dem leaders who are working to find the very solutions you want is both counterproductive and allowing anger to be a guide. 10 million is not even a plurality just as those who claim lots of House members stand with them never mention that the number is only 10%. You are entitled to your thoughts on how to proceed but insulting our House members and basically calling them out for what you consider to be a dereliction of duty is not going to get anyone anywhere,
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)Perseus
(4,341 posts)I find there is a lot of miscalculation, not sure if its out of fear, but not impeaching will only leave the door open for the crooks to take everything with them, but will encourage other crooks to seek office, and then we will become the USA of BANANA REPUBLIC.
We already have a lot of crooks in office because they are not made accountable enough, imagine if the buffoon and Barr get away with all they are doing, the USA will become fair game for crooks, and mafia.
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)If all we stand for is the next election people can be excused for thinking we stand for not much, and in a two-party system thats dangerous, particularly when the other party has already gone down the path of nihilism.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)to own all news, and not enough air to establish our differences, it can totally seem like our party is no different, and why change (to the low political voter) Especially dangerous with TRussia influencing the vote.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)because they have not already impeached Trump?
Really?
On what do you base that accusation?
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)And Trump wins the outcome is pretty much the same. Imagine Trump parading around claiming victory when McConnel refuses to bring it to the floor.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)which is already started even if slowly.
Every time that fascist pig spews another narrative, House should be investigating it, and exposing his lies on tv.
wryter2000
(46,037 posts)Let's get seven or eight investigations going at once with subpoenas flying and contempt charges to follow. Do NOT cancel all that so we can hold one set of impeachment hearings that will have no effect except to exonerate him in the Senate.
The Republicans announced today there will be no trial in the Senate. It'll be a quick acquittal with no hearings.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)If so, then he should become a target...There has to be so much trash in McConnell's closet, he should be easy to investigate and prosecute.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Sucha NastyWoman
(2,748 posts)Republicans in the Senate wont convict Trump after all that is in the Mueller report, that would just prove that the Republican Party has lost its moral authority to lead our country
watoos
(7,142 posts)After that all we will see on cable news is Steve Kornacki.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)TO BREAK THE LAW 11 TIMES !! And, the Republican led Senate said, "nothing to see here."
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)He's two months in - parading around saying he was exonerated.
I am trying to look at all sides, honestly. It just seems to me that impeaching makes more sense when you analyze all pros and cons.
If you don't impeach
Pros
- Some indeterminate # of people will NOT say - oh no, I will punish the Dems and not vote for a person because they are Democrats. (Not sure how many in the middle would think and vote this way though? I would think most people vote for people)
- We are not wasting time on impeachment when we should be doing the nation's business. (Although they are already saying this because of hearings in which we look weak because people and docs aren't showing up).
- Trump can't gloat and brag and say "see I won - I didn't get convicted !"
Cons
- Trump can say, see, there was nothing there, they didn't try to impeach me. (Although already saying this and that he is exonerated. Have had a Republican tell me just this point and have read this on sm.)
- Dems aren't standing up for what is right and holding him accountable. Win or lose. This makes us look weak. And like Michelle G said, what if he wins in 2020? We will look so bad for not doing something.
- Trump deserves to be impeached. There are 11 instances of him trying to get people to break the law. If we don't stand up against that - what will we stand up for?
- Trump does not want to go into the history books as the fourth president to get impeached. His brand is way to important to him.
- Impeachment will allow the general public who are so bombarded with info, to stop and listen to cogent, defined, cumulative crimes. Who knows, maybe even a MAGAhat would hear and think "duh, goll-y, I didn't know that."
- Impeachment will motivate the 10 million of us who signed the move on petition and make us so proud of our party for standing up for something that is wrong.
- Not impeaching rationale considered veiled and political and may not hold up much longer. Makes us look very indecisive.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)is a political process that looks like a legal one. If it goes to the Senate and they don't vote conviction that will be an official acquittal. donald right now is saying he was investigated and found innocent. That is OK as far as it goes, but most people know there's some controversy about what the Muller Report contains so it is a wobbly position. Being able to say I was tried and acquitted is a much more solid one.
There is a lot of investigation going on in Congress now. They need to double and triple down on that. If it goes to the Senate they acquit and any further discussion of the matter will be considered Democrats harassing donald.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)right and that we tried to hold him accountable. But, doubt Senate would try anyway. If they did - you've got, 50 something that have to explain, on record, that it was alright, what Trump did.
What controversy is in the Mueller report that people are saying isn't true?
Unless something's changed, all the investigations are being hampered by people and docs not showing up and we enter into trump's only expertise - dragging shit out through the courts. Hope that changes.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)makes Pelosi way more qualified to judge the lay of the land and the consequences.
You quote Michelle Goldberg without linking to what "she just said" - nearly a week ago.
Is it because she called Pelosi "incoherent" in the same article you conveniently didn't link to?
Clever.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,429 posts)Moscow Mitch McChinless has already announced he'll let MF45 off the hook.
If Democrats continue to hold investigations, and follow up with consequences up to and including impeachment, for MF45 and his corrupt administration, the public will see the evidence. Then when McTurtlefuck lets the criminals go it will be obvious that it is republicons who are complicit co-conspirators. MF45 can and will claim victory, and innocence. People who pay attention will know better.
If Democrats do not do this, MF45 will parade around braying that he's "so innocent they didn't even try, couldn't find anything wrong on me!!!! NoCollusionNoObstruction!!!!!!!!" and how will we argue that if in fact, they don't try? Not even to lay out the evidence to the public?
CrispyQ
(36,460 posts)Either way he will claim victory. It's what he does.
OnDoutside
(19,954 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)Didn't realize she isn't reputable.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)but that doesn't make her always right, and it doesn't make her right in this instance.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)for obvious reasons.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Do you agree with Golberg on that as well?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/trump-pelosi-impeachment.html
Perhaps you also think that Pelosi is showing her whole hand to the public?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)wryter2000
(46,037 posts)I am so effing sick of "if the Dems do nothing." Is she not paying attention to any of the (at least) four sets of investigations going on? They stand a much better chance of costing him the 2020 election than an impotent impeachment vote.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)I do have hope that the redacted investigations will yield something. Or something out of the SDNY or state or DC?
And maybe, eventually, the House? Although they are blocking every move so far - with ignored subpoenas. Yet, what are we hoping for? That the House could pull something out of these people that Mueller could not?
watoos
(7,142 posts)And the other federal ones. He has no control over the NY AG investigations.
Mueller needs to testify in public.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)of the investigations outstanding and status (as of last month).
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212136260
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)to me that he won't implicate. Hope not.
wryter2000
(46,037 posts)Probably not until he leaves office, though
wryter2000
(46,037 posts)If we don't impeach him and he wins re-election, we can impeach him then.
And how about their own impotence if they do impeach him and it does absolutely nothing to stop him?
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)that guarantees that Republicans will also win the Senate and probably pick up seats in the House, hopefully not enough to win back control.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)normal person....that if you are accused of crimes on a national stage, for the world to see, you are less likely to commit them again.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It would be very difficult to impeach him for things that were public knowledge before the election.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Do you think Democrats will still control the House? I don't believe we can keep the House AND lose the Presidential election.
kentuck
(111,079 posts)I agree with Michelle.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)yeah me neither. itmf.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)deserves all the respect in the world for everything she's done for our country. But, just saying, what if she's wrong about this? some say she is motivated (perhaps understandably) with a fear she will lose the House if we move toward impeachment. Yet, maybe you can explain how this could affect the chances of losing the House? I just can't imagine there are that many people in the middle (voters we want) who would purposely not vote for a Dem candidate because the party moved to impeach. Even if there were a handful, they would be offset by the motivated Dems who are happy we held him accountable win or lose. Like 10 million who signed impeachment petition on moveon. And, remember Pelosi chose not to impeach Bush and he started a war based on phony and hundreds of thousands died! so there's that.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Personally, I think that decades of experience and the confidence of her peers to elect her leader time and time again gives her far more credibility on such issues.
Or do you agree with Goldberg that she's being "incoherent" on her case?
I remember all the sudden 'experts' on Constitutional law on the Right when Obama got elected.
yaesu
(8,020 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)him under 40 there. And, then there's the nothing has been done to prevent TRussia from rigging, right? I say, impeach ASAP after they get Mueller in - like within a freakin day. This ties the impeach to what Mueller found out. this is optimum. We missed the opportunity when his report came out but we have a second chance.
CaptainTruth
(6,589 posts)What evidence does she have to support that? She should share it.
She's also assuming that if Democrats don't bring formal articles of impeachment it will be because of cowardice, not because they have a strategy that gives Dems the best possible chance of winning the White House & more seats in Congress.
My message may get hidden for this, & I'm going to warn of my foul language in advance, but I'm sick & fucking tired of people marching out the lame "cowardice" BS, like they have decades of experience in Congress, & they've seen all the internal polling that Dems are using to guide their strategy, & they've sat in every meeting Dems have had in the last 2 years & yep ... sure enough ... every meeting consisted of Dems hiding under the table & crying in the corner because they're cowards.
For Christ's sake.
Let me make it clear my comments are NOT directed at ANYONE here in DU, they're directed at the kind of comments Michelle Goldberg made.
Thanks for listening. Rant off.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)my post #32. Tear it apart, tell me where I am wrong.
Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #31)
emmaverybo This message was self-deleted by its author.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)and it turns off more voters than it turns on.
And he runs and wins reelection.
The whole premise is based off the idea that impeachment will drive votes our way.
No foundation for that premise, but you don't need one when you just assume it to be true.
And it's not "cowardice." It's political calculation. You can argue it's a flawed calculation, but calling it "cowardice" is just silliness. I'm pretty sure Pelosi is not a "coward."
Skittles
(153,150 posts)IMPEACH HIS CORRUPT FASCIST ASS
Well put.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)is not having him as President in 2021.
Impeaching his ass doesn't do anything to stop that and won't remove him from office prior, but you get to say WE IMPEACHED HIS ASS and you feel good.
And I get it, the guy is the worst, I would prefer he choked on a cheeto tonight.
But the endgame and the only goal is a Democratic President in 2021 and a House and Senate to match.
So I'm less concerned about IMPEACHING HIS ASS than I am about making him a one-term President.
Skittles
(153,150 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)because all you have is emotion and righteous fury.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)mention no foundation for the premise that voters will be driven away. I have thought about that a lot. How is that different than seemingly endless investigations? Couldn't that sound like - well hell, Mueller spent a LONG time digging with the best prosecutors on his staff. Why are the Dems still digging? Not impeaching de-legitimizes what Mueller did come up with. And, I just don't see, logically that many people in the middle will say - Oh no, they impeached - will never vote for a Dem because they did that. Not with all the non-blowjob crimes. If the crimes were jaywalking, I could see it. And, if anyone does think that, surely it would be offset by persuading the casual observer who would tune in to an impeachment hearing plus the immense push of Dems motivated (i.e. 10 million who signed move on petition).
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)what is right is not having Trump as President in 2020. You act as if the only right is your way.
As if it's impeachment or evil. As if looking at everything with an eye towards Democrats winning in 2020 is somehow not "right."
I don't know if they will or will not be driven away. I don't think anyone knows how it will ultimately play out.
It's most definitely a possibility.
So no, I haven't provided a foundation, because unlike some, I don't pretend my premise is anything more than a possibility.
Skittles
(153,150 posts)still_one
(92,168 posts)doing nothing"
Has she been out of the country?
oasis
(49,376 posts)when he criticized Dems for forcing Al Franken out of the Senate. Goldberg insisted they did the right thing.
That was many months ago, but I still haven't gotten over it.
still_one
(92,168 posts)Appreciate the background which I was unaware of. Thnks
warmfeet
(3,321 posts)The most corrupt president in the history of these United States of America, and the Democratic leadership chooses not to use the one constitutional remedy they have at their disposal, created for just such a situation.
We not only face humiliation, we face the very real threat of Autocracy.
But others know much better, I'm sure.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)If he does not get impeached he will cheat his way back to the presidency.
Correct me if I am wrong but, are Democrats doing anything proactive to avoid GOP cheating during 2020? The party of trump is definitely not interested in stopping the Russians or anyone else, on the contrary, they seem to be encouraging them.
So, the buffoon, Barr, Pence do not get impeached the cheating that occurs in 2020 is doubled due to inaction from Democrats and the fact that the administration has successfully stopped any action to prevent cheating and meddling from Russia and who knows who else, they are discouraging international intelligence agencies from contributing with our intelligence agencies due to the buffoon's own leaks and the fact that Barr is investigating them, has received full control of intelligence information and can do whatever he wants with it...
Ok, what are the chances the buffoon, if not impeached, will not win a 2nd term? I would love to read some answers.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I guess one doesn't see what one doesn't want to see. You want to see "inaction" on the part of Democratic leaders, apparently.
Consider yourself corrected. You're welcome.
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article230076034.html
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Congress has an obligation to hold Trump to account and this is not a political matter. Yeah I understand reelection is important but if we are going to place politics over constitution, we might as well admit that our country and rule of law is a failure.
There is no debating this. The constitution takes precedence over re-election and a majority in Congress. I too would like to see us own house and the Senate but at what cost? If we fail to impeach and we are stating that elected officials can act with impunity and ignore their oath of office, that the president is above the law and may act as a monarch or dictator.
Call me naive or stupid, I dont want to live in that world.
jalan48
(13,860 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)Why are Dems taking action in the House when they know the bills will go nowhere in the Senate?
Yet Dems arent supposed to act in the House on impeachment because it will go nowhere in the Senate, someone explain the logic.
beastie boy
(9,314 posts)Last edited Tue May 28, 2019, 09:24 PM - Edit history (1)
I don't understand why some Democrats reject any suggestion of pragmatism to make victory more likely.
To put things in somewhat simplistic terms, impeachment is a catalyst for Republican voters, while the threat of Trump winning another election is a catalyst for Democratic voters. It is more likely that impeachment will galvanize Republicans and send more of them to vote, while Trump running again will do just the opposite. The chances for the Democrats to defeat Trump, gain seats in the House and, more importantly, the Senate, are far greater if Trump remains the Republican candidate for the Presidency. And, in the worst case scenario when Trump wins the nomination (let's face it, we must consider the worst case scenario too), the prospects of impeaching and convicting him while having the Democratic majority in both houses is far more likely than they are now. And THAT will be the most opportune time to impeach!
This way, if he wins, he is fucked. Of course, if he loses, he is fucked too.
Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)"trial" - maybe call Barr as a witness, then vote NOT GUILTY.
The only thing the House can do is keep digging and laying out the dirt and the crimes that Trump has openly (and not so openly) committed so the news is constantly out there.
And the Dems ARE doing everything they can, one step at a time. They keep forcing tRump to keep breaking the law over and over and spweing more and more BS on twitter.
Who the hell wishes Japan a "Happy Memorial Day"?????
watoos
(7,142 posts)but Chief Justice Roberts presides over the impeachment hearing.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The Chief Justice would have to work within those parameters and could have very little room to maneuver.
JGug1
(320 posts)BS. Nixon lasted until shortly after his reelection. This is just nonsense.
George II
(67,782 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)Both sides recognized he had to go, and he did. That will never happen again.
I'm ready to split this country in half and move to my half. This is such bullshit.
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)The media and a lot of people demand Democrats keep cleaning up Republican corruption decade after decade, while the Republicans arent getting called out much for their disasterous policies that are crippling our nation. The Dems once again will be called, weak and take the majority of the blame for not doing something they cant actually succeed in doing without massive Repub and public support. Meanwhile, most Americans are under the misconception that sitting on their asses in their comfortable homes angrily tweeting and posting resistance messages online is the same as taking action. Not even close. Hopefully we will be brave enough to leave our comfort zones and actually fight for our democracy before its too late.
Dan
(3,551 posts)There will be another presidential election.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)kentuck
(111,079 posts)Thought-provoking to the extreme.
Isotope17
(4 posts)No!!! This is the wrong frame imho. This line leads back to personal criteria, and thats not relevant (discuss!).
Only winning frame is:
This is an assault on the constitution.
Only legal constructions are gonna work here. Character issues may sway Americans, but not the Senate. Eyes on the prize.
watoos
(7,142 posts)If McConnell rigs the game and it is obvious, the American people will see through it. The American people did not read the redacted Mueller report, an impeachment inquiry will lay out Trump's obstruction, collusion, violation of campaign finance laws, violation of the emoluments clause. Once the American people see why Trump deserves to be impeached, we have won the prize. If McConnell rigs the trial it will be obvious, game over, time to vote for justice.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)a drill down, and speak about it every single moment of every day - people likely would watch an impeachment trial and have all the articles laid out ! All I know is one thing certain, since I am now living in the heart of a red state. They were scared about what Mueller said. And Mueller didn't speak. And Trump and GOP told people what they didn't read. Except they made up what the report said.
BootinUp
(47,141 posts)Shes a rw hack is she not?
kentuck
(111,079 posts)How do you come to that conclusion??
BootinUp
(47,141 posts)Much cable tv anymore.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)spanone
(135,827 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Is it possible the investigation into everything uncovers a devastating smoking gun? Sure. Is it possible that, at the end of the day, the only thing the Democrats can conclusively claim is that Trump obstructed the investigation into the Mueller report? Yes. Then what? Is obstruction a big enough crime to devastate Trump? It certainly didn't devastate Clinton.
The fact is, Americans know Trump probably committed crimes during the lead up to the election ... and they may very well accept the idea he obstructed justice. YET that hasn't really hindered his presidency at this point, has it?
watoos
(7,142 posts)Barr himself stated that he would release grand jury information for an impeachment hearing.
There will be plenty of unseen dirt in the grand jury testimony.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)We already know Trump's campaign had connection with the Russians. This isn't news. I'd wager most of America believes the exact same thing. The problem is to what extent and is it anything that moves into the levels of treason? I'm skeptical only because, had that existed, I think the final Mueller Report would have alluded that significance. But the report, and even in today's press conference, largely punted on the idea - beyond admitting Russians had influence. Okay - but the foundation for impeachment seems to be built out of the idea of obstruction of justice and, frankly, obstruction isn't nearly as devastating as something wholly illegal. Bill Clinton was impeached on obstruction charges and he probably absolutely obstructed justice. But it got to the point where Americans didn't care. I fear that's what will happen here without something far more devastating.
Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Original post)
ehrnst This message was self-deleted by its author.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/opinion/trump-pelosi-impeachment.html
oasis
(49,376 posts)Everything of public interest has gotta be pumped up right now. They've got a ton of commercials they need to push down our throats.
Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Original post)
Post removed
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Or do you simply not want to see what Democratic leaders are investigating?
Pelosi is crushing it. Did you not hear about DT refusing to even talk with Democrats about infrastructure until the 'investigations" stop?
But your 'concern' is noted.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)snide comment?