General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI was very angry at Mueller yesterday and when his report first came out.
But now I am beginning to think that he actually is forcing the Congress to regain their equal status with the Executive and Judicial branches of government. If the House does not Impeach, they will lose that status forever.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)investigating and reporting on Russian influence into the election. He did indict numerous people when crimes were found but it was never in the cards for him to go after Trump. That was always going to be up to Congress. I found many of the posts here along the way to have been nothing more than wishful thinking.
Mueller opened the door, it's up to Congress to walk through it. If Congress does not, the door may be closed and locked for a very long time.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Will take time to accomplish. I hope that an impeachment hearing/investigation is handled very carefully and is very focused on the criminal behavior without a lot of sideshow aspects. However knowing our Breathless 24/7 Cable Noise Infotainment Media, I dont see that as likely.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,935 posts)DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)that the House will hold impeachment hearings. Then we will hear from the witnesses trump won't let testify and see the docs that trump et al doesn't want us to see. History is begging for the Dems to do this.
True Blue American
(17,981 posts)Sherman A1!
This requires careful detail.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)especially Trumps that he will end up in jail or broke by the time he leaves office. He'd resign because money is his God.
Ani Yun Wiya
(797 posts)I agree, the matter IS up to Congress.
samnsara
(17,602 posts)..he was built him up into an unwilling superhero because we wanted and needed one so bad
pazzyanne
(6,542 posts)This Democrat has run out of patience, and Mueller could not have been plainer in letting the American people know just how guilty tRump and company are. Open. Inquiry. for. Impeachment!
get the red out
(13,460 posts)I dont think he cares about anything but looking like a super-fair perfect dude. IMO he has no fucks left to give since he completed his task in the absolute by the book way. Give him a month and he will be back to going out to dinner with Barr again.
I am ashamed I ever put any hope in Mueller.
Cosmocat
(14,557 posts)I never put him on a pedestal.
Learned the life lessons about people to not do that a L O N G time ago.
By and large he is an "honorable" person, especially by current standards.
But, he continues his act of throwing obscure bread crumbs of the truth while relentlessly ducking saying what the painfully obvious truth.
And, this shit about trying to say he is isn't going to testify in front of congress - WTF does he think he is?
I couldn't said it better myself, who to fuck does he think he is saying that Congress can't get any more information from him than in the report, (bullshit) he sounds like one of them Trummper to me, Muller is treating Congress like this Trump administration does , won't do no good to supeona me , I won't give Congress no help , now Congress needs to do their job, but don't ask me for no help damn help, I AM BY THE BOOK MAN, TO HELL WITH OUR DEMOCRACY......
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... Congress can't get any more information from him, beyond what's in the report and has been made public, is because he can't discuss what has been redacted in a public hearing. To do so could jeopardize national security, ongoing investigations, etc.
He also said that his report is his testimony, in that he has included everything he did, and found, in minute detail.
Mueller isn't "treating Congress like the Trump administration does" by any stretch. He also never said "won't do no good to subpeona me", or "I won't give Congress no help", nor anything even remotely like that.
And the name is MUELLER not "Muller". If you are going to malign a man's integrity, and attribute statements to him that he never made, you can at least spell is name correctly.
Cute user name - but a tad obvious.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)He is truly shameful.
JFC the people on this site sometimes.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... he didn't say that at the end of his presser but its in the transcripts and reality has a way of catching up with us.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)You don't like the regulations well that is your right. However, what you and so many seem to be simply unable to consider, is if Mueller stepped outside of his office and duties as defined by law it would provide ammunition to the administration that the investigation was politically biased. Mueller acted exactly as he was required under law and did not take any of the bait tossed his way in an attempt to entrap him into expressing bias.
I and others have posted this numerous times and yet so many still want to rant and rave. You can believe whatever you want, it doesnt make it true. Reason over emotionalism... always.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... it's in transcripts.
You're talking about apples and I'm talking about Mueller's own words, lets get on the same page
Chakaconcarne
(2,429 posts)How many indictments came from this... How much do we know today because of Mueller?
He didn't have to come out yesterday and say what he said at all.
Lonestarblue
(9,958 posts)Yet he was not willing to rock the DOJ boat by challenging its policy of not indicting a sitting president. Its a policy that has never been tested in a court and it needs to be challenged because it is an opinion, not a part of the Constitution. It grants immunity for crimes committed in office because, like Nixon, the president can resign and then be pardoned, thus escaping any accountability. The notion that the presidents duties are too onerous (laughable for this president!) for him to defend an indictment seems specious because thats why we have a second in command who can take over when the president cannot function in the role. That does not even need to be permanent because the presidency can be resumed if cleared of charges.
Perhaps Mueller does not have standing to challenge the DOJ policy in court, but who does? Impeachment will be presented as a political witch hunt in retaliation for Clintons loss. An indictment by Mueller would be seen as evidence of wrongdoing that needs to be addressed in a court of law. So did Mueller wimp out?
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)was not what you hoped for.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... to any form of congress.
That's not cool
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)Eyeball_Kid
(7,429 posts)we will all come to appreciate what Mueller did in the most unbiased and professional manner possible. He gave the Trumpers NO room for delegitimizing his work and creating sideshows. The spinners were flummoxed and their wordsmithing always fell short.
Our big worry should always be Pelosi. Her history of taking the bull by the horns isnt so promising for the present. Some presidents arent worth their salt, and neither are their supporters. Pelosi needs to use her sword with swiftness and precision. She must put an end to this miserable scourge. The nation will be relieved and grateful.
Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)Mueller and yesterdays announcement left me cold. And rather numb.
No one with actual power seems to be able to make any wheels turn fast enough to save what has been catastrophic damage to our nation. Clever and not so clever gamesmanship, using rampant stupidity to combat positive intelligence. Assholes with no accountability thrive.
Word games, power plays, traitorous in-our-face behavior. Hate for women, earth, children (once actually born) non-whites, intelligence, laws.
It all kills spirit and decency. And evil, twisted, wretched men prevail. Extremes win. EVERYTHING is under attack.
No respite from the insane.
Those with money will survive. The struggle will devastate many thousands.
Baby steps, blue waves, RESISTANCE, vote, yeah yeah yeah.
I just dont Know wtGDf to think anymore. Day after day after every single day.
I come here for knowledge and support and venting and hope. Im grateful I have this small slice of Internet to cling to outside of the daily im Miraculously still standing for now reality.
I just dont KNOW what to THINK anymore.
(Primal but mostly silent scream emoticon)
flying_wahini
(6,576 posts)BlueJac
(7,838 posts)we could learn a lot more and the public will be aware of the findings.
Scarsdale
(9,426 posts)Start the process. Let citizens know just how Russia was involved. Expose EVERYTHING, so that the gop will not be able to just dismiss this. McConnell and tRump are acting as though the next election is "in the bag" for the gop. McConnell will not allow any restrictions on interference in the elections, refusing to even bring the bill to a vote. He received millions from a Russian oligarch to open a business in Kentucky, so he does not want THAT to be ruined. Some of the traitors in the gop need impeaching, too. Graham, McConnell, Barr and several others. They are openly defying the laws of the land, and getting away with it.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)You might expect a person who has been deliberating the fate of the democracy to have a little more passion about the findings. He could have been reading a traffic report on the local news.
Scarsdale
(9,426 posts)discoveries have left him numb. The outright corruption, money grubbing, traitorous behavior, so much dirt in only 2 1/2 years. Maybe he sees the writing on the wall and knows his job is on the line for telling the truth.
Chakaconcarne
(2,429 posts)pazzyanne
(6,542 posts)Mueller is a true professional, and we don't have many of them left in power these days. It takes a very committed person to stand in front of the American public and deliver his message with the strategically placed barbs for his superior (barr) and the potus. (lack of capitalization is intentional.)
James48
(4,426 posts)At this point, knowing what I know now , there are no good choices or outcomes.
What if the House holds hearings, assembled evidence, levels formal charges, send it to the Senate, and the Senate does...nothing.
Or worse, the Senate then holds a trial, and votes- one vote short of conviction?
Or votes to find him guilty, but doesnt vote to remove???
There are no good outcomes now.
I cant wait until 2020, when there is a real chance that this nightmare can be over.
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)but that is not the point here.
If the D's in the House do not impeach they will be seen by the base as having not even tried to do anything about Trump's obvious criminality. This will deflate the base and could reduce voter turnout in 2020.
What bothers me the most here is that if the shoe was on the other foot the R's would have impeached already. They wouldn't give a damn about any Pew Research Poll telling them how unpopular impeachment is. They would just do it anyway and energize their base.
If you look at polling, the R's take almost every unpopular position there is to take in America today and yet they keep winning. They don't care if their stances on gun control, climate change, tax policy, etc are unpopular. They win and legislate accordingly a.k.a. poorly and they don't think twice about it. But somehow the D's have to always be super cautious, always over analyzing and thinking like lawyers.
It is also extremely annoying to me that most Americans just don't seem to give a shit about this entire situation. Or that Trump just pardoned two war criminals - one of whom murdered a little girl. We are going to get what we deserve. I believe 100% that a second term of Donald Trump would end in absolute catastrophe and we might just be headed that way. The election of 2020 should not even be in question if the electorate was sane but it is a 50/50 proposition at this point. I am sorry to say that is the country that scares me now more than the politicians.
bdamomma
(63,788 posts)maybe this is why Mitch is blocking everything.
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)But I think playing the long game on impeachment is a good strategy. They need to have the hearings and build the case. And if the evidence isn't there to convict. Then don't impeach. But if a good case is built with strong evidence to support it, then they should impeach.
And if the Senate just quickly calls a vote without doing their do diligence then that becomes an election year issue.
1. The presidents policies are bad for the country
2. The president broke the law and no longer has the moral authority to lead the country
3. All Republicans are complicit because the refuse to hold him accountable
If the public rejects those arguments and re-elects Trump and the Republicans in the Senate, then we know the Republic is undergoing a major transformation and freedom, as we have come to know it, will be changed for a long time.
gordianot
(15,232 posts)Although this was an excellent clarification we are all witnessing the death of the American Republic. I do not expect a savior or justice. I intend to vote anyway.
Bromwell
(123 posts)And there in lies the problem....if the co-equal branches of government won't do their job (thanks Mitch McConnell scum-bag turtle most dangerous man in the country)....
I agree 100% tRump should be impeached for this and quite a few other things but 2019 Congress is not at all acting in a way the founding fathers probably ever imagined so we are truly navigating uncharted territory
cachukis
(2,229 posts)In essence, he sublimely accused the president of crimes. He will be more than an asterisk in the history books. From his background, he took a giant leap to that stage. That was courageous.
Ponietz
(2,934 posts)Chakaconcarne
(2,429 posts)This thread should be a bitch session on Barr, not Mueller.
pazzyanne
(6,542 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Whatever Congress does or does not do, that's up to them. He's not forcing them to do anything, supporting them in anything, or showing any concern if Congress does nothing. That's up to Congress. He doesn't even state that there is cause for Congress to do anything. That's not his job.
Sometimes you just have to take someone's words for what they are, with no hidden meanings or messages. I think the Mueller Report is just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
In the end, he failed to DO anything about the Trump family, other than report what he reported. He filed and referred indictments on Russians and others.
pazzyanne
(6,542 posts)He wrote his findings in a report. He stood in front of cameras to shed clarity on the actions of barr and tRump. He also indicted those who committed crimes along the way and turned them over to proper jurisdictions. In my book that is not failure!
Wounded Bear
(58,584 posts)The cops (investigators) investigate and the DA charges. In this case, Mueller & crew were the cops investigating what happened. The House is the DA's office, deciding how strong the case is and whether to bring it to trial.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)... and he is going to live and die by the way it is supposed to be.
Doubly so after seeing what happened to Comey after he attempted to stick his toe into political matter (Clinton press conference) and ended up drowning.
UniteTheLeft
(49 posts)"No we have to wait..it's too soon", "It's to risky" , "Or she's playing the long game " nonsense.... anymore. Thankfully it Looks like many more of are waking up to what has to be done, but there plenty of people still dragging their feet along with Pelosi. I love the speaker but too but she needs to ACT ON THIS asap.
If they continue acting WEAK and do not use the power they have to do what needs to be done YESTERDAY, then why have that power at all. There is enough support for crying out loud, even from some republicans at this point. Trump will inevitably spin it to his voters like so " Why aren't they impeaching me yet...I'll tell you why because they're AFRAID they know don't have anything on me." it will only BOLSTER their confidence, besides we all can see how guilty he is and we have more then enough evidence to show how mentally unstable he is. It won't matter if they do start impeachment and he continues to cry "witch hunt" it can only hurt him even if he tries to use it as "Ohhhhhh poor me, votes pls" rally whine . Bonus round... If the senate does not convict we have even more momentum to vote those filthy traitors out.
There comes a time you stand up strong to a bully, even if you still feel weak (which you're not), or you will never be free of them.
START IMPEACHMENT NOW.
RichardRay
(2,611 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts).....actually did find indictment-worthy behavior, but could not charge?
In other words, if it was not the President involved, did Mueller find enough to charge an ordinary citizen?
"No exoneratiion" is somehow very diffferent from Mueller saying that A, B and C were actually found, though I am not allowed to charge.
Does he expect Congress on its own to find more evidence of a crime than he did? Or to just impeach on moral grounds?
So I'm still confused.
Skittles
(153,104 posts)yes INDEED